World Breaker Hulk vs Superman (Rules)

Besides, i'm not even sure why the strength feat is even important here. Hulk's got striking feats out his ass.

These are both examples of supporting weight on your back. It is definitely a strength feat.

WBH still stomps

See bolded above. Exactly. He was simply being held in place.

@blackstaroblivion: Post 1603 shows a weightlifting position similar to what Hulk was in. Hulk arms remained underneath him. If Hulk was NOT bracing himself then Hulks face would have been touching the ground. Was Hulks face ever touching the ground? No. Therefore he was bracing himself.

Pooty, I disagree with your comment pretty much entirely.

So, first, comment 1603:

@p00ty said:

These are both examples of supporting weight on your back. It is definitely a strength feat.

If we're applying real world science here, then we should also point out the different types of strength/power exhibited by humans and as expressed through our muscular system.

There is, 1) endurance, 2) endurance strength 3) strength 4) speed strength and 5) power. For the long winded explanation on each of these facets of the human expression of "strength", I might suggest some google searches or a trip to the library for a very long winded explanation behind the mechanical difference of each as well as the metabolic differences of each. Mechanically speaking, you want to ask also, is the movement above concentric, isometric or eccentric? I'll answer.

The above "movement" is isometric, which involves simply holding a position statically, generally for a long time if it's going to be difficult to do.

I was a certified personal trainer for a while (several years ago), and a former college athlete. Having competed in endurance AND power sports, I can explain the difference and I have personally felt the difference.

For simple explanation, what the man above is doing, with the weights on his back, is a static position. Simply holding a position for a short period of time can be done by most who aren't in atrocious shape. Likely, the picture above is of a gentleman who is holding the position for a looonggg time. The weights on his back appear to of hundred pound increments (I would know, since I've trained with Olympic style, bouncing weights) for a total of three hundred pounds.

Depending on how big you are and what kind of shape you are in, and the length of time holding the weights, all this goes into determining how just how difficult what the man above did. While it's impressive at first glance, we don't really know how long the guy held the weight, so I'll hold judgment of that real world feat in abeyance until such time as I know the time frame. Generally speaking, it's not too difficult to brace yourself in a static position for short period of time, even if the weight is considerable.

Having said all that.....

Hulk's position is not the same as the gentleman above. Let's examine:

First, Hulk is in a standing position

On the next page, we then see this:

Hulk is not only on his hands, like the gentleman above with 300 pounds on his back, his legs are helping to brace against the weight.

But how did Hulk go from a standing position, as indicated in the first scan, then on to all fours on the next page?

Because he was FORCED down by the superior power of <EDIT, Proxima>. Did Hulk actually resist in the first panel, second scan? He's grimacing, so I can say, yeah probably. And then in the panel directly below that, we see Hulk forced to his knees.

But here is no clear indicator that specifies how much resistance Hulk was giving, just that he was forced to his hands and knees. Likely, he could've forced Hulk down on his face. In my opinion, EDIT <Proxima> held Hulk in place, then forced the guy to his knees within seconds, likely toying with the Hulk.

And if you haven't figured it out by now, bracing yourself on all fours as far, FAR easier than bracing yourself with just your hands, like the guy in your scan.

So, what proponents of this feat for Hulk are saying is that Hulk held the weight of a star. In reality, Hulk was forced to his hands and knees by the weight of a star by a guy who likely was toying with him.

To be more clear: Hulk was forced to his hands and knees by EDIT <Proxima> who doesn't look like she could lift a bowling ball, who in turn controlled a weapon that administers the weight of a star.

The scan of EDIT <Proxima> holding the Hulk in place with her power is not a valid showing of strength for the Hulk.

@blackstaroblivion: Have you actually read the issue? Corvus isn't the one that put all that weight on Hulk, it was Proxima Midnight. Geez...

Oh good god. Okay, you got me.

Now what about the rest of the argument, or are you going to ignore that?

@blackstaroblivion: Well first of all, you are arguing that with Pooty, not me. And second, i wouldn't argue against someone who is digging so much in an instance he hasn't actually read himself. Sorry man.

I read the issue when it first came out, so wrong.

So, I'll take that as, you don't really have an argument. Got it.

@blackstaroblivion: The above "movement" is isometric, which involves simply holding a position statically, generally for a long time if it's going to be difficult to do.

In order to hold the position whether on all fours or not you have to be able to SUPPORT THE WEIGHT. So even if he was on all fours it's still a star on his back. He was still not forced into a prone(face down flat position).

If you put a 100 ton weight on your back, you would be forced into a prone position. Because even on all fours you don't have the strength to support the weight. Hulk supported the weight of a star WITHOUT being forced into a prone position. It is absolutely a feat of strength.

1) This is a prone position. This position requires no strength. You are no supporting, lifting nor bracing yourself. Your arms and legs are completely flat. If Hulk was in a PRONE position then it would NOT be a strength feat.

2) Hulk is on his hands and knees. While this is not a lifting feat it is still a strength feat. If the weight on Hulks back was to much, then he would be forced into a PRONE position. But as you can see, Hulk still had his arms straight down which is a support/brace position. This position requires strength.

3) Imagine you are in the position that hulk is in. Youre on your hands and knees. Now imagine a cruise ship being put on your back. Could you use your strength and maintain the position that Hulk is in? Or would you be crushed into a prone position?

But he was forced into that position, yes? The only thing we know is that Proxima employed the weight of a star. How much Hulk was able to resist is indeterminate just as much as how much she was utilizing her power? What kept her from forcing Hulk to the ground if she was able to force him onto all fours?

....and Hulk was forced from a standing position onto all fours....

You seem to be missing that.

But by your argument, Hulk should not have been force onto his knees in the first place right? If he was exerting any pressure that showed he resisted that power, that weight, we would've seen it in the form of him standing up.

But we didn't.

What we see instead is Proxima forcing the guy to his knees....from a standing position.

I have no doubt she could've forced him into a prone position as well.

And generally, for that feat to be relevant to the kind of strength Hulk can employ in a practical way, we would need to see a demonstration of him over coming the weight of a star. He was not able to stand back up when Proxima forced him to his knees.

Again, this goes back to the mechanics of movement and strength and power, etc...

Put another way, how is this:

The same as this:

Given this is from the same issue, should we conclude that if Hulk actually was capable of lifting the weight of a star, that Thanos is much stronger than that?

Also, if the guy above with weights on his back were doing push ups, then we could make application to how much force he could exert, for example, on someone's face.

See what I mean?

The same holds true for Hulk, we don't see him pressing up, just being pushed easily down, with no effort on the part of Proxima.

There is no evidence of validity to your argument, particularly since Hulk was forced from a standing position onto all fours. And again, for all practical purposes, we want to know what kind of force Hulk can exert (concentric movements, like pushing something heavy over head), not how much he can resist.

And how much he was actually resisting is entirely questionable since, 1) he was forced from standing onto all fours and 2) he could not get back up, nor was he making some sort of movement that is practical for a fight, since he made no movement with his arms/shoulders/chest.

Unless you want to say this

==============================================================================================================

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Is the same as this?

I disagree entirely with your argument.

@blackstaroblivion: I disagree entirely with your argument.

Likewise

@p00ty said:

1) This is a prone position. This position requires no strength. You are no supporting, lifting nor bracing yourself. Your arms and legs are completely flat. If Hulk was in a PRONE position then it would NOT be a strength feat.

Pooty, Hulk was forced from a standing position into a position on all fours, number one. You cannot refute that.

It is literally in the scans

2) Hulk is on his hands and knees.

Yes. He is on his hands and knees.

How did he get there in the first place?

Hulk went from here, standing up:

To here, on all fours?

Answer?

He was forced to his knees by Proxima.

Your illustration is pointless and you're looking at this the wrong way.

Pooty, you might be able to push 200 pounds over your head and bench press 300 pounds.

If you are sitting in your driveway and decide to toy with an ant, are you using your full force to do so?

Do you need to exert all 300 pounds of force to crush the ant?

There is no indication of how much of the "weight of a star" Proxima was employing to hold Hulk in place.

And as mentioned, he WAS standing.

Then, he was forced onto all fours. I have no doubt, had Proxima wanted to, she could've made Hulk prone.

Similarly, you might decide to use the weight of a baseball to toy with the same ant.

Do you need the full weight of the baseball to hold the ant in place? But you, controlling the weight of the baseball will certainly hold the ant in place.

Same hold true for Proxima. She employed the "weight of a star" to force Hulk to his knees then hold the guy in place.

@blackstaroblivion: noted

Since we're bringing in real world physical laws, I'm not sure Superman's musculature works the same as the human body, nor do I think the Hulk, who constantly distances himself from being human, specifically "puny human," has a physiology that works anything like a human being. He gains mass from out of nowhere.

Given this, any analysis of actual musculature has to be off base from general principles. There's no amount of caloric energy you could put into human muscle tissue that could make them lift a mountain, much less any of the feats Superman and the Hulk have shown. Yes, they are drawn as humanoid bipeds, but there's no reason to think an alien and a gamma powered being with muscle tissue from another dimension have bodies that work anything like the human form has to in order to be efficient.

Secondly, Superman passively gains power from the sun. In comics perhaps the sun is an infinitely powerful star that is, given the poor grasp the comic medium seems to have on scale, energy, mass, distance, basic astronomy and simple math, more powerful than the output of a galaxy. In the real world, no. It's just a medium class star with an absolutely finite amount of energy, no matter how efficient Superman is at drawing, storing and/or exerting power from it.

The Hulk on the other hand not only draws power from ambient universal gamma radiation, he's also an active radiation source. Whatever their respective power levels, the Hulk has access to, for all intents since gamma radiation is everywhere, and apparently extradimensional since he draws mass too, infinite levels of energy. Not saying he can use it all, but his power level has always been described as "virtually limitless," regardless of how much power he's actively putting out. Class 75, 100, whatever.

Another contrast is that Superman gets energy from "yellow sunlight" which is a specific frequency of solar radiation that is much, much less than gamma radiation. Gamma radiation being the highest observed range of photon energy.

Whether WB Hulk would beat Superman is a different question than whether WB Hulk can be more powerful than Superman.

It's my opinion that, under these rules, WB Hulk would beat Superman in the same way that Doomsday knocked the snot out of Superman, since WB Hulk wouldn't run out of energy the way Doomsday did.

And, of course, we didn't see Superman fly Doomsday into space or go sun dip, etc.

But there's no question, as a matter of fact, that in their respective sources of power Superman's is limited and of a lower energy and the Hulks is infinite and of the highest energy we've seen. Again, regardless of who wins. Superman has beaten foes above his weight class. I just don't think it happens this time.

And I don't by the "Superman wasn't exerting himself fully" arguments. I mean, that's great he's taking it easy, but you're going to tell me all those times Superman was fighting while people were dying by the thousands he's just phoning it in?

That might make him amazingly more powerful than we think, but it also eliminates him from being a hero.

@termiteone4ever: That's what I was thinking.

Hulk still murderstomps.

Even with speed blitz allowed,Clark is not beating WBH.

Hulk wins no matter any way you slice it.

If Superman can't use super speed via blitz, then Hulk will likely win this.

Hulk since Superman cant blitz

@void-x: Even if Superman is allowed to blitz,this version of Hulk is too much for him.

I doubt it. If Clark can use super speed then I don't see how Hulk could even hit him. Clark has a long history of super speed feats and Hulk does not.

To hit an opponent you have to go close,true,WBH cannot tag Superman by bare hands...but the gamma burst is the deciding factor here,not to mention on this level,Hulk's healing factor and durability is just insane ( Hulk already proved himself being able to walk off planet busting stuff). So even Superman's landing tons of punches on him,it may not end the fight,as for BFR,I really doubt it's gonna work unless it's dimensional (which is a power Superman does not have).

I agree

WBH is extremely powerful so I think I'm gonna go with WBH...sorry Superman.

WBH wins,with or without blitzing .

Without blitzing? Hulk curb stomps, this is actually a borderline mismatch.

WBH would win under normal conditions, this is a spite thread.

WBH in a nice little mismatch

All these ridiculous comments about Superman stomping WB Hulk, or ripping him in half etc...

How about we sideline your mere biased opinions, and look at what the actual writer had to say? Pak, who writes for both Hulk and Superman, said in an interview after Heart Of The Monster, that Superman "wouldn't stand a chance" against Hulk after he went World Breaker. Again, this is straight from the writer, with plenty of experience writing for both characters!

He also stated that we have no idea just how powerful Hulk really was at these levels, and that he was nearing becoming a cosmic force of nature... Again, it's just silly to claim Superman could just waltz in here and take out Hulk at these levels.

Just examine some of the feats he managed casually:

Armacheddon. Let's not forget that in an earlier comic, this villain took on both Professor Hulk AND Silver Surfer simultaneously.

Bi-Beast. A regular Hulk and Thor villain that in the past repeatedly gave both a run for their money

Wendigo. Same as above

Yet all of these characters were DISINTEGRATED by the shockwaves of power coming of the Hulk... Again, 3 villains who each by themselves could handle Hulk/Thor and other high level characters such as SIlver Surfer (A superior to Superman), were obliterated without even being attacked directly. Just being a bystander got them killed... Well, more than killed, disintegrated. Same as Dr. Strange, and everyone else present. All were disintegrated. (Disintegrating Dr. Strange, Sorcerer Supreme is no small feat either!)

Umar, master of the Dark Dimension, needed Hulk to accomplish what she couldn't! Think about it! Umar is getting into Skyfather levels of power when in her own realm. Yet the Mindless Ones were invading, and it took Hulk to drive these mystical creatures back.

Those claiming it was unimpressive Red She-Hulk was giving WB Hulk a run for his money... Um, are you just choosing to ignore the fact that through the power of the Wishing Well she was granted WB Hulk levels of power?

Let's also not forget that at the beginning of the series HOTM, Hulk, without going full WB mode successfully battled both BiBeast and Wendigo, who had tapped into the Wishing Well to receive 1,000 times their original levels of power! So again, we have beings who at normal levels are Thor and Hulk level, and give them BOTH a 1,000 X power boost, and still Hulk handled them simultaneously without fully tapping into WB! Later in HOTM, we also see Hulk take punches and attacks from these guys without even flinching. Not even losing a beat. Hulks durability had reached a level where he could take savage attacks that'd previously knock him around, or even lay him low - Now he takes them point blank to the face, and no-sells it as if it's a joke.

So how on Earth would Superman take down a Hulk that is this beastly? Again, even the writer is telling you Supes fanboys that you're wrong. But by all means, please tell us how your opinion trumps that of the writer himself. Haha --- Supes is out of his league at this level. This coming from someone who knows that regular Hulk cannot compete with Supes unless you handicap Superman without his speed. I know regular Hulk cannot overcome that big of an advantage.

But WB Hulk? Who can disintegrate Hulk/Thor and Silver Surfer level beings indirectly? Sorry, Superman is going down hard.

supes will always beat any version of hulk

Won't beat down Space Punisher Hulk.

@tensor: That isnt wbh genius

Hulk

@supergoku17: ???

In your pic that isnt world breaker hulk because if it was huge ammounts of gamma radistion would be coming off of him

Id back Hulk here.

With Supes speed nerf hulk would win. With speed allowed Hulk cant tag Superman.

@supergoku17: What pic are you talking about ,better yet tell me the post number on this thread.

hulk stomps so hard

Dang that's absurdly stacked in Hulk's favour, Hulk slaughterhouse.

Few things to add here since these are not in the rules.

Lets say Superman is allowed to fly into outer space with the hulk. If Superman feels threaten he can just fly to a near by blue star and gain extra strength from it or take it into the sun which will just help Superman super charge faster.

If we are using this Superman then post crisis superman feats are allowed which anything having to do with moving planets, holding a mini blackhole in his hand, and various other things such as Superman having knowledge of Pressure points which can be used against hulk in some cases, and full access to using his brain which he always holds back in that.

Asspulls and plot devices aside, Hulk wins this handily. Too powerful and that gamma ray bursts from his body are definitely going to slow Clark down.

Hulk