Word Smith Style vs Pretty Picture Style

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Gojira2014

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#1  Edited By Gojira2014

This was a debate for a tournament match, but the content of this debate became so clear as to which style of debate is better.

The first 10 or so post is the short and easy to follow debate itself of two different styles. Word Smith style which is using your skills in persuasion as well well thought out sentences vs Pretty Picture style which involves using visuals and jokes to support a argument as well grab the attentions of those reading to your views.

Which style do you think is better? Be respectful.

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Gojira2014

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one_upper

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So, who gets to go first?

And is there a place that shows who is on each team?

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Gojira2014

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@one_upper: i never made a place, just both on the past 60 feet from eachother. You can go first if you like.

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Gojira2014

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#5  Edited By Gojira2014

@one_upper:

Lets get some intros here.

Xena

No Caption Provided

Xena is the greatest fighter in the Hercules Legendary Journeys and Xena Warrior Princess universe. She is a master fighter, master tactician, master leader, as well proven champion against Armies, Gods, Demons, and Monsters.

Callisto

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Callisto is the greatest adversary of Xena. she was a little girl who grew up swearing vengeance on Xena, and devoted her life to studying what makes Xena great. she is also the only known person to use and catch the legendary Chakram weapon. Im am also using the version that ate the Golden Apples and became immortal. Only dismemberment would stop her.

The Crow (Eric Draven)

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Eirc Draven was a musician who was brutally murdered. instead of passing on he was brought back to exact his vengeance so his soul can rest. Gifted with immortality, enhanced stats, innate skill, and some supernatural powers. The Crow is a terrible force to stand in the way off.

Prep time in the pub. Prep will be used for the team of Xena and Callisto who already know each other well learn the capabilities of Crow through some fun bar games.

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Pin the knife on crow.

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Who is in the birthday cake.

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Paper rock scissors.

Good times. Then after some drinking and fun the team can finally make plans to take yours down.

I will wait to see what your approach the the battle will be.

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thatguywithheadphones

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Best opener I've ever seen :P

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Gojira2014

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#7  Edited By Gojira2014
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one_upper

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#8  Edited By one_upper

I have been indisposed! Now for my introductions I suppose.

My team benefits from knowing each other extremely well and having excellent teamwork already. They have been in life and eath situations with each other many times before.

Toph is my pointman. Her seismic sense is powerful enough to detect ants on the ground, and has the range to find hidden tunnels running for miles underground.

Aang has also shown the ability to use seismic sense as he was taught the skill by Toph as part of his mastery of Earthbending. He adds a secondary level of detection.

Katara boasts a plethora of useful abilities that can help take down your team.

My team uses their time at the pub to strategize over a few drinks. (I am using grown versions of each character)

Just a shot in the dark here but since Xena and Callisto seem to be sworn enemies doesn't that effect your team chemistry?

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Gojira2014

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#9  Edited By Gojira2014

My team uses their time at the pub to strategize over a few drinks. (I am using grown versions of each character)

Just a shot in the dark here but since Xena and Callisto seem to be sworn enemies doesn't that effect your team chemistry?

They better be of age!

Very good question. They are sworn enemies, yet have worked together several times when forced to with no issues.

  • Including the picture above, Xena wanted Callisto to kill her so Xena can free Hades in the realm of the dead, meanwhile she trusted Callisto to keep Xena friends alive, which she did.
  • Xena and Callisto both worked together to beat Velesca with few problems.
  • Xena and Callisto also worked together fine when up against Ares and Hope.
  • Xena and Callisto are further more connected when Xena saved Callisto from hell and vice versa, going as far to have Callisto reborn as Xena's own child to make a amends.

So they're pretty tight as sworn enemies... and now related if going by current times lol.

list Gear real quick. Xena: Balance Chakram, Sword, Dagger, Whip. Callisto: Dark Chakram, Sword, Dagger. Crow: Sword.

With that said both Xena and Callisto throw their Chakrams at the team Avatar. These weapons travel as fast as arrows, and have a habit to ricochet everywhere.

Loading Video...

While Xena Chakram is better as it can split apart for duable attacks, the Dark Chakram that Callisto often used (stolen from Xena from time to time lol) is just as effective. As seen your team will have three deadly projectiles flying around your team. Toph is the one in most danger as she has trouble seeing anything not touching the ground.

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Then the team will run in and slice and dice whatever the Chakrams do not hit.

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1. It's a good thing then that Aang and the Gang have dodged/blocked arrows and similar attacks on several occasions. In fact Aang dodged and blocked numerous arrows from the Yu Yan Archers, an entire gang of archers capable of pinning a fly to a tree from 100 yards away without killing it.

2. It is false that Toph cannot detect objects that are not touching the ground. She demonstrates on multiple occasions the ability to sense and detect Earth/Metal objects that are not in contact with the ground. As the Chakrams are metal she would be able to sense them.

3. Being that most of their weapons are made from metal Toph can manipulate them. Aang and Katara could also "catch" the chakrams with their powers leaving your player's without their go to weapons.

4. Charging in an slicing my team up sounds great, but it's going to be difficult when they're hit with a water whip that can cut through stone, of the ground they're running on turns into quicksand.

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Gojira2014

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1. It's a good thing then that Aang and the Gang have dodged/blocked arrows and similar attacks on several occasions. In fact Aang dodged and blocked numerous arrows from the Yu Yan Archers, an entire gang of archers capable of pinning a fly to a tree from 100 yards away without killing it.

2. It is false that Toph cannot detect objects that are not touching the ground. She demonstrates on multiple occasions the ability to sense and detect Earth/Metal objects that are not in contact with the ground. As the Chakrams are metal she would be able to sense them.

3. Being that most of their weapons are made from metal Toph can manipulate them. Aang and Katara could also "catch" the chakrams with their powers leaving your player's without their go to weapons.

4. Charging in an slicing my team up sounds great, but it's going to be difficult when they're hit with a water whip that can cut through stone, of the ground they're running on turns into quicksand.

I do not remember a feat of pinning flies into trees, also Aang was in fact caught by said archers too. also unlike arrows, the Chakram bounces from any object causing a constant range threat. From three angles no less here. Toph is the one in most danger as well.

Can I see this feat? I remember the show clearly and she had trouble surviving being stuck on the the Air Ships in the final episodes, as well never detecting arrow heads or the Earth/metal fire balls the fire ships launched at her and the Avatar crew in a sea battle.

I think its easier said then done to catch the Chakrams as they are moving faster than arrows in the video I showed above. most of the time the crew dodges attacks, and by the time they realize how the boomerang and ricochet all over the place, it be too late as my team would close the distance. honestly my team realy do not need weapons here either as my teams super human stats would crush your team, and Xena can incapacitate them all with pressure points which works well on your team as both Last Airbender and Legend of Korra have shown.

Not really as The Crow can close the distance super fast, and same with Xena and Callisto.

Eric traveling great distance by jumping and running on varying roof tops.

No Caption Provided

Joshua outpacing in pursuit cops with his speed and jumping.

Jamie making large jumps across roofs and onto Helicopters to get around.

Xena can and has jumped over 50 feet herself.

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#15  Edited By one_upper

@gojira2014 said:

@one_upper said: 1. It's a good thing then that Aang and the Gang have dodged/blocked arrows and similar attacks on several occasions. In fact Aang dodged and blocked numerous arrows from the Yu Yan Archers, an entire gang of archers capable of pinning a fly to a tree from 100 yards away without killing it.

2. It is false that Toph cannot detect objects that are not touching the ground. She demonstrates on multiple occasions the ability to sense and detect Earth/Metal objects that are not in contact with the ground. As the Chakrams are metal she would be able to sense them.

3. Being that most of their weapons are made from metal Toph can manipulate them. Aang and Katara could also "catch" the chakrams with their powers leaving your player's without their go to weapons.

4. Charging in an slicing my team up sounds great, but it's going to be difficult when they're hit with a water whip that can cut through stone, of the ground they're running on turns into quicksand.

I do not remember a feat of pinning flies into trees, also Aang was in fact caught by said archers too. also unlike arrows, the Chakram bounces from any object causing a constant range threat. From three angles no less here. Toph is the one in most danger as well.

Can I see this feat? I remember the show clearly and she had trouble surviving being stuck on the the Air Ships in the final episodes, as well never detecting arrow heads or the Earth/metal fire balls the fire ships launched at her and the Avatar crew in a sea battle.

I think its easier said then done to catch the Chakrams as they are moving faster than arrows in the video I showed above. most of the time the crew dodges attacks, and by the time they realize how the boomerang and ricochet all over the place, it be too late as my team would close the distance. honestly my team realy do not need weapons here either as my teams super human stats would crush your team, and Xena can incapacitate them all with pressure points which works well on your team as both Last Airbender and Legend of Korra have shown.

Not really as The Crow can close the distance super fast, and same with Xena and Callisto.

Eric traveling great distance by jumping and running on varying roof tops.

Joshua outpacing in pursuit cops with his speed and jumping.

Jamie making large jumps across roofs and onto Helicopters to get around.

Xena can and has jumped over 50 feet herself.

1. The feat was mentioned by Zhao as he was explaining the Yu Yan Archer's abilities to a fellow Fire Nation Officer in "The Blue Spirit" Aang blocked and dodged dozens of arrows before he was finally caught. Context is everything. Aang wasn't fighting back, and he wasn't even trying to really get away fully. He was attempting to collect the frogs to help his friends. Only after he was multi-tasking and his attention was on grabbing a frog was he pinned by an arrow and captured. Also, one must bear in mind that this was Season 1 Aang. You are facing a more experienced, more skilled, and more serious Aang. Toph is not in danger as I already explained her ability to sense Earth/Metal.

2. Toph demonstrates the ability to sense Earthen/metal objects multiple times against opponents in the series. Notably she does so in her fight against the other Earthbenders in "The Blind Bandit", and in her fights against the Dai Li. I don't know what you are referring to with Toph having trouble on the airships. Firstly she was able to successfully launch Suki, Sokka, and herself accurately onto one of the airships. In the Sozin's Comet finale. How could she accomplish this without the ability to sense where it was? Secondly she had no problem getting around the airship. She was running around, climbing ladders, and beating the tar out of firebenders all over the place. The only difficulty she had was when the airships started colliding and that can be attributed to the chaos, sudden impacts, etc. To be fair Suki and Sokka were having a difficult time with their footing too. As for sensing arrowheads it is a moot point since no one ever shot arrowheads at Toph after she learned metalbending. The sea battle in "the awakening" contrary to your claims further demonstrates Toph's ability to sense earthen/metal object in the air as she was able to take out the other ship's trebuchet, and shoot a flaming projectile out of the sky with her own projectiles. This would be utterly impossible if she could not sense Earth/metal objects not touching the ground as they were in the air, and on another ship respectively.

3. The chakrams will not ricochet off or water or air. They will either lose their momentum, or have their flight path manipulated. Heck, Aang should be able to control the chakrams by manipulating the air around them. My team is capable of dodging a chakram and still keeping an eye on their enemy.

Your team is going to find it hard to crush what they cannot touch. Aang is superhumanly fast and agile himself as is demonstrated time and time again in the show.Toph and Katara have large area of effect attacks and defenses, and I simply cannot see your team even getting close enough to touch them with their higher level techniques. Your team doesn't pose any threat my team hasn't seen before. We have faced opponents just as fast, who can jump just as far, who are just as tactical and skilled.

Ty Lee and Chi blocker's studied specific nerve strikes and pressure points in an art designed to use against benders. Furthermore the events of LoK have no bearing on this fight as none of these characters fight chi blockers in LoK. In TLA neither Aang or toph were ever hit by Ty Lee in battledespite fighting her multiple times. And Katara was only hit when she was fighting Mai and Ty Lee pulled a sneak attack.

4. You're not fast enough to blitz my characters, i'm sorry but that is just plain false. Avatar characters have reflexes to deal with lightning, arrows, throwing knives, etc as well as characters who move just as fast as those scans show.

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Gojira2014

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#16  Edited By Gojira2014

@one_upper: Im still not sure how the passive and high morals Avatar crew is getting past the faster than Arrow speeds Chakrams that will be ricocheting every where.

Loading Video...

Even Hope who has immense TK power was barely able to move the Charkam from harming her in time, and this just more goes to show the God Slaying Weapon magical abilities.

  • Abilities of ricocheting off of wood, but then cuts through steel.
  • Always return to Xena no matter how far she throws it or where Xena ends up.
  • Maneuvers around obstacles to hit its Target.
  • Resist the TK powers of Gods and Demons trying to control it.

Over all the feats are not looking good of avoiding them.

Toph had major help the whole time on the ship to ship attack with people shouting coordinates for her to counter. Its also convenient how no one shot arrows at her for you to prove me wrong there either.

Here she cannot even detect the SUPER LARGE METAL AIRSHIP in the sky, she had to ask the question "where is the nearest Airship."

Loading Video...

Further evidence here has Toph again unable to detect the Airship on Airship crash, and again states "How did that happen? Did Boomerang come back?

Loading Video...

Huh, look at that. The evidence is quite clear. She cannot see anything in the air at all even if its a couple hundred feet of metal airship.

Also your team still has little to deal with the deadly hand to hand skills, or pressure points of Xena, Callisto, and the deadly super strength of Crow in close combat which they will get into real fast.

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#17  Edited By one_upper

@gojira2014:

So your weapon is magic and defies all laws of physics and basically warps reality.....whatever, Deus Ex Machina frisbee is literally all you have. We can still dodge them as we have shown the ability to react to similarly fast projectiles.

1. It was a rhetorical question as she was accurately able to launch them onto the deck of the airship before Sokka could reply. You are grasping for straws.

2. She is hanging on for dear life with one hand, airships colliding all around her, and she was able to sense that there was an airship below her to safely drop onto, she just didn't know how it got there. The quote also could have been gallows humor as they were facing a life and death situation. It is hardly something to base your entire argument on considering there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

3. Then how did she shoot a flying object out of the sky in the sea battle during "the Awakening". how did she perfectly hit the trebuchet on an opposing ship? How does she do half the stuff she does in nearly every battle she is in? According to you she shouldn't be able to do stuff she clearly has been doing.

4. H2H skills, pressure points, etc won't mean much if they cannot get in close enough to land a hit. But lets entertain the thought of the possibility. My team are still master martial artists, they can hang in long enough to gain the advantage through their bending.

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Gojira2014

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#18  Edited By Gojira2014

@one_upper:

Nothing Deus Ex about it. Its has resisted the force of a TK user by a degree period. Its a god forged weapon.

Im grasping nothing as I showed the evidence.

Still showed proof she could not sense the coming air ship much less Boomerang.

By people giving her coordinates on the deck of the ship. show me the video and prove me wrong if you can.

Master Martial Artist at bending and not so good at fighting.

Loading Video...

Ty lee is a non bender who decimates these suppose Master Martial artist benders.

Loading Video...

Jet is a self taught meh fighter who gave Aang who is a master Air Bender already hell.

Loading Video...

Here Amon with no bending and using only fighting skills takes down big time fire bender.

Loading Video...

Here chi blockers take down one of the best Fire Benders in Republic City, and takes down the best trained Bender in 3 different bending styles easy.

Point is being a Bender is not the same as being a Master Martial Artist at all as many skilled non benders own benders in straight up fights.

Loading Video...

Xena who can fight blind multiple soldiers, uses deadly pressure point attacks, and learn how to use Chi Power through her skill will have trouble with these half butt fighters? no.

Loading Video...

Callisto who matches Xena in fights will have no trouble as well. Crow with his massive regen and decent skill will be the final nail in the coffin.

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one_upper

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#19  Edited By one_upper

@gojira2014:

1. Your weapon does whatever is required of it, and follows no real rules of physics with the simple explanation that it's magic, it's neither here nor there I'll leave it at that.

2. No, you didn't. That one quotation does not prove anything. She was joking for all you know. Sorry, but one vague quote does not undo countless other cases where she demonstrated the ability. There are multiple occasions she accomplished feats that COULD ONLY BE POSSIBLE IF SHE CAN SENSE EARTH/METAL IN THE AIR. I already pointed them out and you chose to ignore them because they completely shoot down your argument in flames. So you are trying to tell me she shot a moving projectile out of the air by listening to coordinates? Stop being misleading, no where in that video are they yelling coordinates to her.

3. There are many benders that were also very skilled martial artists including Zuko, Azula, Amon, Korra, Zaheer, etc. It still doesn't matter because in this open environment you will not get close enough to attack my team as they have strategized that their best chance is to keep you at distance. Utilizing larger area of effect attacks and defenses they will keep you at bay and off balance.

4. Ty Lee is a master of a pressure point art designed specifically to fight benders. She is also more agile than anyone on your team and used to fighting benders. There is no one on your team that is a compareable threat, and even then she has never tagged Toph or Aang in a real fight.

5. Early in Season 1 where Aang practically refused to fight anyone instead trying to avoid and evade, and still had the mentality of a 12 year old boy who didn't want to be the Avatar. Regardless Jet is a master with the hookswords, extremely agile, and on his home turf that ge knows intimately well. i don't know where you got the opinion that he is a "meh" fighter. He is considered one of the best non-benders in TLA. It's clear that throughout the fight Aang was not trying to hurt jet, he was employing the same avoid and evade techniques he used all the time.

6. Amon is a bloodbender, and extremely agile. It was also suggested by Mako at the end of Season 1 that he used his bloodbending to throw off his opponents aim at times.Lightning bolt Zolt has zero legitimate feats to rank him as a good fighter. He was merely well known as the leader of a Triad. He is fodder, so defeating him proves no points against a team of experienced master benders who saved the world on more than one occasion.

7. Early LoK fights showed inexperienced and underpowered characters. Korra, Mako and Bolin were on a much lower level of bending in Season 1 than Toph, Aang, and Katara have showcased in their adventures. Chi blockers are specifically trained in an art designed with the sole purpose of incapacitating benders. Furthermore this was the very beginning of the season where they have to make the enemies seem threatening and powerful. Later on Korra and Mako faced numerous chi blocker's with much greater ease.

8. None of the fighters she faced in that video were anywhere on the skill level of my team. The one group of guys JUST STOOD THERE while she took them down one by one. None of those fights displayed speed or skill that is anything my team would have to worry about. Generic chi blockers have shown more martial art skill and fighting ability than her opponents in that video! It's laughable.

9. Nice fighting, but nothing worth noting that my team hasn't faced time and time again.

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Gojira2014

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@one_upper: Give some shout outs, voting will be open for a few days.

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Gojira2014

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The_Man_With_Questions

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@gojira2014:

You basically auto win. Upper never provide any evidence to support his claims.

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Wyldsong

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@gojira2014 gets the vote. Lack of support for his arguments really hurt his opponent, and gojira2014 not only had well formulated arguments and responses, but was able to back up his claims quite nicely.

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@wyldsong said:

@gojira2014 gets the vote. Lack of support for his arguments really hurt his opponent, and gojira2014 not only had well formulated arguments and responses, but was able to back up his claims quite nicely.

@gojira2014:

You basically auto win. Upper never provide any evidence to support his claims.

These sum up my vote for @gojira2014.

Tons of scans aren't always necessary (although I sometimes prefer it lol), but at least a few to support claims are pretty much necessary to earn my vote, because I have nothing to reference anything he claimed. Maybe some people who are experts on his team would have an easier time reading this debate though.

Even with this big advantage, gojira still would have probably won, because he did a great job with Xena, Calysto, and the Crow like he always does.

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thatguywithheadphones

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@gojira2014: easily. He gave more evidence of AV characters than his opponent.

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#26  Edited By mickey-mouse

@gojira2014: This was so bad...not you're fault though. Pfff, you posted the only evidence for his team of characters? DA FAQ?

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Fu-Dog007

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#27  Edited By Fu-Dog007

@gojira2014:

Do I really have to say who won.... @gojira2014

Also, some advice for @one_upper:

I'd suggest to actually post feats/scans on your characters. For Example: (even though this is very basic):

If I were in a debate against a TP user, and was using Firestorm, I'd use this scan. This shows that Prof. Stein forced a powered up Hector Hammond (who put most of the other JLA into a coma) to release them:

No Caption Provided

Also, if this is your first debate, I suggest looking at and watching others debates first.

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#28  Edited By Erik

@fu-dog007: @thatguywithheadphones: @tparks: @wyldsong: @lukehero: @the_man_with_questions: Since when does one need scans to win an argument? I would tune all of you up at the same time in a debate and never once post a scan or video. Who has the better argument should be what gets the votes, not who posted the fanciest pictures or videos. Seriously some of the saddest reasoning I have seen for votes in a while.

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thatguywithheadphones

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@erik said:

@fu-dog007: @thatguywithheadphones: @tparks: @wyldsong: @the_man_with_questions: Since when does one need scans to win an argument? I would tune all of you up at the same time in a debate and never once post a scan or video. Who has the better argument should be what gets the votes, not who posted the fanciest pictures or videos. Seriously some of the saddest reasoning I have seen for votes in a while.

How can we know what he's saying is accurate/and or true without scans and or videos. When comparing fictional characters proof is an important factor. To paraphrase @tparks you don't have to have a ton of scan you have to have some type supporting evidence. It also doesn't hurt that Upper's argument came off as somewhat basic.

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one_upper

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I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was debater preschool where I need to spoon feed my argument so you can follow along.

Flashy videos and scans do not an argument make. I clearly proved Gojira wrong on multiple points but because I can't post scans or videos I lose? His own videos contradicted his argument, but I guess more videos equates with a win around here not actual solid logic. Half his videos were pointless and added nothing constructive to the conversation.

If you want to vote for your buddy that is fine, but at least have the balls to be honest about it instead of hiding behind this ridiculous claim that I didn't provide evidence. I referenced specific fights and instances in specific episodes. If you are too lazy to inform yourself before voting that's not my problem, it's yours and it shows a lack of integrity. I just assumed we were all adults and we wouldn't be throwing out claims we realized were patently false. Guess I overestimated you. Oh well, if you actually had any interest in fairness you would see that everything I said was correct and supported by the evidence.

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Erik

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How can we know what he's saying is accurate/and or true without scans and or videos. When comparing fictional characters proof is an important factor. To paraphrase @tparks you don't have to have a ton of scan you have to have some type supporting evidence. It also doesn't hurt that Upper's argument came off as somewhat basic.

Well for one... you could actually read his entire argument. Another option is to be well-rounded in your own knowledge of the characters used. Your ignorance of a character should not be the reason why you fault HIS arguments. That's ridiculous.

Scans and/or videos are entirely optional and supplementary. They are NOT critical to a sound and logical argument.

Jesus bananas, Upper's argument was anything but basic if you bothered to do more than skim and look to see who included pictures. When comparing the two, Upper had not only an edge, but he blew Gojira out of the water.

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one_upper

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@lukehero:

You do realize that evidence doesn't only come in scan/video form. The fact I referenced specific fights/instances in specific episodes is just as much evidence because it's all there for anyone to see. Unfortunately you can't seem to comprehend anything unless it's in picture form so I understand why all the shiny videos drew you to Gojiira's lacking but stylish argument.

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JediXMan

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#33 JediXMan  Moderator
@erik said:

@thatguywithheadphones said:

How can we know what he's saying is accurate/and or true without scans and or videos. When comparing fictional characters proof is an important factor. To paraphrase @tparks you don't have to have a ton of scan you have to have some type supporting evidence. It also doesn't hurt that Upper's argument came off as somewhat basic.

Well for one... you could actually read his entire argument. Another option is to be well-rounded in your own knowledge of the characters used. Your ignorance of a character should not be the reason why you fault HIS arguments. That's ridiculous.

Scans and/or videos are entirely optional and supplementary. They are NOT critical to a sound and logical argument.

Jesus bananas, Upper's argument was anything but basic if you bothered to do more than skim and look to see who included pictures. When comparing the two, Upper had not only an edge, but he blew Gojira out of the water.

I partially agree with this. I think that scans can be necessary.

That said, he did do a better job of actually discussing the feats, and arguing with what he had. His opponent did little more than post feats - which is great, but some elaboration is nice. Upper put more effort in.

The best debates I've had were where scans were supplementary to the argument, where both parties were familiar with the characters involved. Obviously, you cannot always do that, but you should be able to have a concise argument that can stand on its own without using feats as the only basis for the argument. Hell, Citizen Bane / Saren used only a handful of scans (mainly about 2-3) and trolled multiple users to prove that Daken was a light speeder, using an argument that was so stupid, and so ludicrous, that people thought he was serious, and it actually appeared ridiculously valid. He managed to make even the absurd look valid (this is a trick done by... basically all politicians who "win" debates. You don't need evidence, or even the truth, to win).

I don't really want to vote for either of them, personally. They both possessed half the necessary skills for debating.

... so I'm not going to vote. I'm only posting this because I saw Erik's comment pop up in my activity list. If I had to, however, I'd give it to Upper by a slim margin.

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tparks

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@erik said:

@fu-dog007: @thatguywithheadphones: @tparks: @wyldsong: @lukehero: @the_man_with_questions: Since when does one need scans to win an argument? I would tune all of you up at the same time in a debate and never once post a scan or video. Who has the better argument should be what gets the votes, not who posted the fanciest pictures or videos. Seriously some of the saddest reasoning I have seen for votes in a while.

I feel like when someone is using characters that aren't widely known like one_upper did, it would help to have some support for his claims. It's very difficult for someone like me to know what his characters are capable of, if nothing is provided at all. There is no proof that anything someone is saying is true, unless proof is provided, or at least it isn't as convincing of proof IMO.

Maybe we're just not as comprehensive of a reader as you, and you were able to get a complete picture of his argument better then we could. I would think you are a minority in this ability though, judging by how everyone has voted, unless you are claiming we all voted with some sort of bias. I can assure you I did not, and with the reputations I've seen of the other people you have tagged, I tend to believe they also did not vote with any bias. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're wrong in our opinions, just because we didn't read something as clear as you did without any substantial evidence from scans. I promise you that my vote was just as well thought out as if he would have provided scans.

I also think that a debate is just more entertaining with scans. It's my personal preference, and I take more away if there is something there. I like to learn more about characters when I read these, and I'm a visual learner. Seeing is believing for me.

On top of all of this, gojira2014 actually did provide a great argument as well as scans. He didn't win simply because he used scans, he wrote a great debate, and deserved a vote because of it IMO.

Any criticisms I gave to one_upper were completely meant as constructive criticism. I don't claim to know what is right or wrong with how someone should debate, I'm just giving my personal opinion, and my personal preference, and explaining that reasoning in my vote. If this was not crystal clear, then @one_upper, I sincerely apologize if my vote could have been viewed in a negative manner. It really was not my intention, and there is nothing wrong with any style of debating you would like to use. You don't have to play to the majorities just to get votes, but chances are if I am called for votes, if both debaters provided a solid argument, but only one supported their argument with scans, 9 times out of 10 I'm going to vote for the debater who used scans. Again, that doesn't mean the way I think is right or wrong, just preference.

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Erik

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@jedixman: You're right. There are exceptions where some arguments do need it. I personally have prided myself on almost never resorting to them though and I dominate many threads I debate in. So seeing Upper give a detailed breakdown to every opposing point was extremely refreshing than what I have seen from new users lately, which is basically to scan-spam in the hopes that the scans can win debates FOR them.

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#36 JediXMan  Moderator

@erik said:

@jedixman: You're right. There are exceptions where some arguments do need it. I personally have prided myself on almost never resorting to them though and I dominate many threads I debate in. So seeing Upper give a detailed breakdown to every opposing point was extremely refreshing than what I have seen from new users lately, which is basically to scan-spam in the hopes that the scans can win debates FOR them.

I agree. The best debaters could use scans, but relied more on well constructed arguments (see... pretty much every inductee to the CV Debaters Hall of Fame).

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#37 JediXMan  Moderator
@tparks said:

It really was not my intention, and there is nothing wrong with any style of debating you would like to use. You don't have to play to the majorities just to get votes, but chances are if I am called for votes, if both debaters provided a solid argument, but only one supported their argument with scans, 9 times out of 10 I'm going to vote for the debater who used scans. Again, that doesn't mean the way I think is right or wrong, just preference.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. It takes more skill to make a well formed argument than to simply post scans, and them summarize what is happening in the scans. It is better to make a detailed argument and then, if needed, use the scans to back it up.

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Erik

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#38  Edited By Erik

@tparks said:

I feel like when someone is using characters that aren't widely known like one_upper did, it would help to have some support for his claims. It's very difficult for someone like me to know what his characters are capable of, if nothing is provided at all. There is no proof that anything someone is saying is true, unless proof is provided, or at least it isn't as convincing of proof IMO.

Maybe we're just not as comprehensive of a reader as you, and you were able to get a complete picture of his argument better then we could. I would think you are a minority in this ability though, judging by how everyone has voted, unless you are claiming we all voted with some sort of bias. I can assure you I did not, and with the reputations I've seen of the other people you have tagged, I tend to believe they also did not vote with any bias. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're wrong in our opinions, just because we didn't read something as clear as you did without any substantial evidence from scans. I promise you that my vote was just as well thought out as if he would have provided scans.

I also think that a debate is just more entertaining with scans. It's my personal preference, and I take more away if there is something there. I like to learn more about characters when I read these, and I'm a visual learner. Seeing is believing for me.

On top of all of this, gojira2014 actually did provide a great argument as well as scans. He didn't win simply because he used scans, he wrote a great debate, and deserved a vote because of it IMO.

Any criticisms I gave to one_upper were completely meant as constructive criticism. I don't claim to know what is right or wrong with how someone should debate, I'm just giving my personal opinion, and my personal preference, and explaining that reasoning in my vote. If this was not crystal clear, then @one_upper, I sincerely apologize if my vote could have been viewed in a negative manner. It really was not my intention, and there is nothing wrong with any style of debating you would like to use. You don't have to play to the majorities just to get votes, but chances are if I am called for votes, if both debaters provided a solid argument, but only one supported their argument with scans, 9 times out of 10 I'm going to vote for the debater who used scans. Again, that doesn't mean the way I think is right or wrong, just preference.

Scans do help. But they shouldn't be making or breaking an argument and Gojira was using them as a crutch. A crutch that contradicted his own argument, no less.

Like I explained to a user above, your ignorance of the characters should not be something that faults a user's argument. References were provided to support his claims. Those unfamiliar with the characters have the information to inform themselves. Upper's argument was clearly the superior argument. You take away Gojira's videos and then what does his argument become?

If you don't have as deep a well of knowledge on characters as I do, that's completely fine. You can still evaluate an argument to see if it is logically sound, which is absolutely the most important aspect of a debate anyway. I don't think you voted in bias, nor do I think anyone else here did either. I think you all voted in ignorance. You are blaming Upper for something that isn't his fault. Some people don't have the ability to provide scans. Are they inferior debaters because of this? I almost never post scans but frequently provide references and I am a well-known and respected debater.

Entertaining maybe. Who doesn't like watching videos. But once again, this is a debate. It should be judged on the logic and wit of the users, not who can bring the flashiest videos. If reading is too boring for you, voting on a debate that happens to be in a forum might not be a fair use of your time.

Gojira did not provide a great argument. He provided an okay argument in some parts but most everything he posted crumbled under Upper's synopsis. Did you read the part where Upper pointed out contradictions? Because Upper's argument was rock-solid... if we don't misplace value in pictures/videos that is.

Oh, I don't care if you want to help a new debater become better. I just look at the votes and see everyone say the same thing and it blows my mind. I can garuantee that if I had presented the exact same arguments as Upper, I would have won in a landslide just because I have a reputation as a high-tier debater. I don't think Upper is getting a fair shake, just because users seem to think new users need to bring scans and Youtube clips. It's absurd.

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one_upper

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@tparks:

I never realized "proof" was needed in the debate as A.) TLA is one of the most popular cartoons of all time. B.) my opponent provided videos to illustrate many of the very points I was making and contradict his own points. C. My opponent never asked for any proof of one of the claims I made, and I did reference where support of my claims could be found. D. I cannot post videos or scans from this phone.

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mickey-mouse

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@one_upper: @erik:

If you have a problem with my line of thinking, I really don't give a damn. Don't tag me to this BS again.

Tired of having this same debate with mofos.

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@lukehero said:

@one_upper: @erik:

If you have a problem with my line of thinking, I really don't give a damn. Don't tag me to this BS again.

Tired of having this same debate with mofos.

All votes are treated equally but I think it's pretty obvious you don't have a clue how to weigh arguments.... considering you are incapable of having one yourself without resorting to juvenile behavior.

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mickey-mouse

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@erik: Dude get off your high horse. Please stop tagging me. You don't know me, and I do not know you. I am tired of having this debate when people whine about not needing to post any form of evidence. I do not care what you think about my voting method. I have had this debate in 3 other threads & it all goes back and forth on the same points.

Goodbye.

(Waits and watches for him not to be able to resist to respond).

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Erik

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#43  Edited By Erik

@lukehero said:

@erik: Dude get off your high horse. Please stop tagging me. You don't know me, and I do not know you. I am tired of having this debate when people whine about not needing to post any form of evidence. I do not care what you think about my voting method. I have had this debate in 3 other threads & it all goes back and forth on the same points.

Goodbye.

(Waits and watches for him not to be able to resist to respond).

  • You don't have to reply if you don't like people calling you on your ignorant and poor decision-making skills.
  • I know you pretty well just from the posts in this very thread.
  • LMAO! Upper provided evidence. Something you would know if you, you know, actually read his debate...
  • If you didn't care what others thought of your voting methods, I would not be addressing this amusing fit you are having right now.
  • Yeah, it's a real shocker that one of the most well-known debaters on this site would reply to an argument. I bet every single user here is amazed that you had the wit to make that call.
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JediXMan

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#44 JediXMan  Moderator
@lukehero said:

@one_upper: @erik:

If you have a problem with my line of thinking, I really don't give a damn. Don't tag me to this BS again.

Tired of having this same debate with mofos.

This is weirdly hostile. Nobody forced you to reply.

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mickey-mouse

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#45  Edited By mickey-mouse

@jedixman: He started off pretty hostile & quite cocky from my point of view. Respect is earned, when respect is given. He shows me respect, I show him respect & vice versus.

"I would tune all of you up at the same time in a debate and never once post a scan or video."

@erik: Erik I don't care about your fame on this site. If that makes you feel big and strong. Good for you. Nor do I feel the need to justify my vote to you. If the OP & the participant want to throw out all of our votes, that's cool.

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Erik

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@jedixman said:
@lukehero said:

@one_upper: @erik:

If you have a problem with my line of thinking, I really don't give a damn. Don't tag me to this BS again.

Tired of having this same debate with mofos.

This is weirdly hostile. Nobody forced you to reply.

Right? Actually managed a chuckle when I read his reply.

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one_upper

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Erik

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@lukehero said:

@jedixman: He started off pretty hostile & quite cocky from my point of view. Respect is earned, when respect is given. He shows me respect, I show him respect & vice versus.

"I would tune all of you up at the same time in a debate and never once post a scan or video."

@erik: Erik I don't care about your fame on this site. If that makes you feel big and strong. Good for you. Nor do I feel the need to justify my vote to you. If the OP & the participant want to throw out all of our votes, that's cool.

  • I am pretty cocky. But it's earned cockiness from nearly a decade of debating here.
  • You don't seem to know your own Sopranos-like take on respect very well. Respect is earned when those who have not established themselves as thinkers (you) give respect to those that are respected. I called you out for ignorance. You flew into a child-like fit and you reinforce it with every whiny post you make. Tell me, how have you been earning the respect of any user that happens across this thread? Is it when you jumped to an emotional extreme because someone questioned your flawed logic?
  • Yeah, I would tune you up. Easily. In fact, I have been in this very argument.
  • Never said you would care about my 'fame', if you can call it that. But it is what it is. I am a well-known debater because I debate very well. I almost never use scans in my debates. Why should anyone else, so long as they can make a concise argument? Especially when that argument is supported with references?
  • Heh, you say you don't need to justify your vote but you do feel the need to defend your overly-inflated ego, which I very clearly popped.
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tparks

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@erik: You have an opinion. You're opinion is no better then anyone else who voted, just because you're view is different. It's one thing to bring up why you see something your way, it's another to call my opinion absurd or to claim that the battle forums are not a good use of my time because I do not share the same opinion as you. I responded completely respectful to you and you're opinion, justifying why I voted for gojira2014, while not ridiculing how you look at it.

I honestly don't care if you agree with me or anyone else. I actually am glad there is diversity in the way people write debates and vote, because it keeps things fresh, but please don't try to belittle other opinions because you believe you have some sort of reputation on the battle forums that makes your opinion more valid then anyone else. The only reputation you are giving yourself is a bad one here to anyone who reads this thread.

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mickey-mouse

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#50  Edited By mickey-mouse

@erik: Ego? Yah, you really don't know me at all. Once again. Stop tagging me dude. I hardly think of myself as one of the best debaters here. I've taken straight up stomps. I know where I stand. You're annoying to me. Basically trolling me now.