Wonder Woman & Black Adam Vs. Beta Ray Bill & Hulk

So WW and BA can survive planet explosions? Considering Superman KOs himself when he destroyed a moon, I doubt WW and BA would fair any better.

Wonder Woman's shown feats that put her on near planet level tanking explosion durability no problem. And you seem to forget that Superman flew at just under light speed at the moon to blow it up. That added massively to the KO factor. And he blew up a moon by himself. WBH needed Betty to blow up the planet too. It was a good feat but it was carried out with help. Not to mention that both combatants can move around in space whereas Hulk will be floating helplessly around like he does here

See? Helpless to move. Not "a darn thing I can do about it" in his own words. If he does blow up the Earth, all he's done is left himself helpless to getting beat up by Diana or Adam.

Until I see durability feats of WW and BA surviving planet explosions, I don't care if WBH is floating around, he won at that point.

Good feat with help? You do realize WBH didn't directly hit the planet? Simply colliding fists/bodies w/RSH the LEFT OVER energy was enough to vaporize the planet! The VAST majority of the energy of the collision would have been absorbed by WBH/RSH. Safe to say WBH could EASILY destroy a planet, he doesn't need RSH to do so.

If by needing Betty you mean needed something to punch than yes,,just by punching her he destroyed a planet as a side effect,,that's quite impressive considering superman needed to reach near light speeds to accomplish the same feat and he was KO'd in the process..when has BA or WW ever shown strength so immense that their footsteps caused earthquakes shaking the entire east coast

@green_skaar: I don't think BA and Wondy are just gonna stand there while the planet is breaking apart and allow themselves to just blow up. As fast as they are, they'd be off planet in seconds probably. This leaves Hulk just floating aimlessly out in the void of space to get picked apart.

Not being able to fly, I still fail to see how Hulk factors into this fight. BRB, Black Adam and Diana are more than likely going to be battling at high alttitudes or space

The planet isn't going to leisurely blow up like Namek in DBZ.

Also WW and BA don't know anything about Hulk, they aren't going to just fly away the second the fight starts, talk about out of character, running from a fight! But let's assume for a second they do, BRB won't go flying off ditching his team mate, they can just wait for BA/WW to return. It's not like they are going to kill WBH/BRB with ranged attacks! lol

I would say Team 2 with some trouble

If anything Metropolis loses :} definitely

@green_skaar: Sorry, but I feel differently. OP says nothing about no flight or no super speed, so I don't believe Diana and BA will just stay grounded and play Hulks game. They're both too smart for that and will figure out where they have the advantage in this fight. To disregard their own speed and flight that they normally use is "out of character", especially if they're allowed to use it in the battle.

Look, this has been fun but I'm leaving work to hit the bar. I'll just have to agree to disagree with ya! Cheers my fellow Viner

Why...

@czarny_samael666:i'm telling you that wonder woman uses super speed in combat IN CHARACTER and i can post examples.

No problem, have fun at the bar!

That moon of 81 billion tons was made of unknown energy and was moving at 2,000,000 meters per second,It was packing ridiculous force,and superman flew at just under light speed at the moon to blow it up,that is another factor for the KO,and he also blew up a moon by himself,so superman is a planet buster without a doubt and BA and WW are in his power class.

Nice try, characters aren't planet busters by association. Until they've demonstrated they can do it and survive it on panel, I'm not buying it.

Let me call @ancient_0f_days here to give you Wonder Woman's durability feats. But you hype up WBH too much. Sure he can bust planets but he lacks speed and versatility. And that's why he loses to much higher tier powerhouses like these two.

Unless team 1 bfrs wbh at the beginning of the fight, im giving it to team 2

1.Superman didn't prove that he can destroy it by punch, he had to boost his damage by speed, something that Savage Hulk not needed here:

And remember that WB Hulk didn't punch planet directly - it was destroyed by wave of explosion made by him and RSH, which is above direct hit.

And I can't post similar in which she didn't use it, ergo it isn't her first choice in battle, which is what matters here.

You don't understand me. I am saying that it doesn't mean the same with "all best powers first", rather that "they are willing to kill with powers they usually use".

When WW and BA survived planet level explosion?

I was referring to how you owned him.

@czarny_samael666: so is your word against mine,wonder woman has used her super speed in combat IN CHARACTER a lot of times,so don't think you can go and tell us that she doesn't use her speed in chacter because she does and there are a lot of feats to prove it,she didn't use it in certain fights where it could have been useful?,so what?,blame the writter,why would anyone choose not to use an ability that can make the different in a fight?,only because of the writter limiting the character for that certain fight,like they have done with BRB,thor,sentrye,etc,wonder woman has a lot of feats to prove she uses her speed in combat(in character),and she will use it if she needs it here too because this is a random fight where nobody is being restricted by the plot of a writter,so all of these characters are going to fight with the full extension of their capabilities.

I gotchu L ...

Bracers feat

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Lighting blocking and tanking...

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healing factor ...

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Surviving in a black hole past the horizon, no sells a warpcore explosion meant to level a city when Kyle hesitates to create a construct, surviving the explosion of an Imperiex Probe (a blast from one of these nearly killed Captain Marvel), tanking blocking Nekron's lightning, flying through Ares's blast, bathing in molten lava...

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Surviving an onslaught from Zoom who "hits as hard asSuperman" (I mean, she's getting stomped but is still awake and breathing, talk about durability), surviving Hades's attacks in his realm, crashing to earth on a space ship with no damage, tanks/blocks the quantum zealot who just one shotted Superman (QZ's can take on 5d imp level beings), tank's Magog's staff blast, no sells a nuke.

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Tanks a point blank attack from the Queen of Fables, tank's Magog's staff again and is the only one standing (probably due to her magic resistance), no sells Etrigan's Hellfire, tank's angel fire of heaven, takes a mean shot from Oblivion (guy who threatened the universe) who no sells the JLA entirely then she the proceeds to pull Martian Manunter out of a black hole produced by Oblivion.

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She survives encounters with Superman where he thrashes her for a good bit of those fights. (only using two examples)

(Wonder Woman v2 # 175 and 176)

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Wonder Woman vs Superman (Woman v2 # 219)

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She regularly tanks sonic attacks from Silver Swan who's been amped by Ares in the past

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She survives getting decimated by Ares himself....

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There's more but, man...that's good enough I suppose, for now at least. I'm done with this debate though, you gonna have take this and do what you gotta do. Let me know if you need the scans though, but that's all I'm adding here.

BRB and HUlk FTW

@ancient_0f_days: That's fine, I only needed your durability feats for Wonder Woman. I'll take it from here mate. Thanks for the help.

@green_skaar Got your Wonder Woman durability feats courtesy of Ancient here. This should prove she's more than capable of taking what the Hulk can throw at her.

lol cant remember if i already commented but team two in a good fight

- Pip

Some seem like pre-crisis and others post-crisis? Since issues aren't given I can't be for sure, but artwork seems to indicate that.

Team 1 quite easily.

@green_skaar: All of these are Post Crisis I can assure you. Perez' artwork does seem older than it actually is at times but all these feats are Post Crisis for Wonder Woman. I've seen them all before and can vouch for their authenticity.

Thanks for the clarification, the artwork just looked very retro! :-)

I really didn't see anything suggesting she could w/stand a planet explosion. Nor anything to put WBH down.

I only asked for durability feats, not the other feats. She's tanked blows from teambusters, cosmic powerhouses, gods and beings that make WBH look tame in comparison. I think she can handle his blows well enough and is fast, strong, skilled and versatile enough to take him down. DC Versatility in their powerhouses>brute, raw power from WBH in my book. When Hulk goes against DC powerhouses, he isn't taking a majority in my eyes and I can support that position fairly easily given the evidence and arguments from the DC side.

Savage I agree for most part, WW or WB I'd disagree. They are both next to impossible to put down and have insane damage output + regeneration.

But WWH/WBH lack the speed, reactions and versatility to stop DC powerhouses I'm afraid. A one trick pony doesn't beat a multi trick pony unfortunately. Diana and Adam bring more to the table than WBH does and his feats are blown out of proportion for him to have a chance against vastly more versatile characters. Sorry but I don't agree with your assessment that WWH and WBH are impossible to put down. With the right characters like Diana or Adam, it's very possible to put them down.

What are you basing this on? I don't recall WWH or WBH ever not hitting their opponents, after all this is the most important aspect of combat speed.

Which feats are "blown out of proportion"?

Hulk is not a "one" trick pony, not sure where you are getting this from, unless you don't read Hulk. He's uber strong, durable, regenerates, thunder claps, leaps, ambient energy (in WB form), super smart "alter ego" Banner.

Again I don't see anyway WW or BA is putting WBH down. Keep in mind WWH had gaping holes punched through his chest and healed them mid-fight. That was WWH, the weaker version of WBH. I've never seen WW or BA capable of punching through bricks on WBH level, let alone Savage Hulk's level. Maybe I'm wrong, has WW or BA literally punched through Superman's chest? What about DD?

WB Hulk's indirect energy took out a planet AND planet-buster level superhumans. People on par with base-level Hulk and the Silver Surfer!

Wonder Woman and Black Adam are toast.

He never faced fast moving opponents. BEFORE you say Sentry, just remember that Sentry just flew straight at Hulk in a straight line and never used his speed constructively like Superman and other DC powerhouses do.

The planet busting feat meaning that he can beat more versatile opponents who are in his league of strength even if they don't surpass him.

So you're saying I haven't been following Pak's run (which is my favourite Hulk run ever) on my 7th favourite superhero and am not reading the currently excellent Indestructible Hulk by Mark Waid. If you're going to accuse me of something, make sure you can back it up so I don't make you look like a fool here. Thanks to respect threads on here like TheAcidSkull's one, I'm very aware of what Hulk can do. And what I meant by the one trick pony is that he lacks proper versatility in combat. Flight, speed, energy projection, fast reactions etc. Banner's intelligence isn't playing any part in a random encounter btw.

And again, I don't see WWH/WBH tagging much faster opponents who have reacted to things that make Hulk look slow in comparison. If Hulk can't hit his foe more than they can hit him, what use is his raw power? You underestimate the raw power of DC Powerhouses being in the league of what Hulk can do along with possessing more versatility in their use of powers. We've done this dance before and ultimately we fall on different sides of the debate. I can support the versatility of the DC Powerhouses and you can play up the raw power Hulk has. If you want to continue, I'm more than capable of countering your arguments but this'll go to a dead end eventually.

@lvenger said: He never faced fast moving opponents. BEFORE you say Sentry, just remember that Sentry just flew straight at Hulk in a straight line and never used his speed constructively like Superman and other DC powerhouses do.

Stop trying to low ball everything Hulk does. Sentry was blitzing WWH and Hulk told Sentry he didn't want this fight, once it was obvious that Sentry wasn't backing down WWH turned his face into hamburger despite Sentry blitzing him.

Again WWH/WBH has hit EVERY opponent he's faced. So your comments that he's slow isn't based on anything.

@lvenger said: The planet busting feat meaning that he can beat more versatile opponents who are in his league of strength even if they don't surpass him.

The planet busting feat demonstrates his damage out put and durability both of which are far beyond any feats WW or BA have.

@lvenger said: So you're saying I haven't been following Pak's run (which is my favourite Hulk run ever) on my 7th favourite superhero and am not reading the currently excellent Indestructible Hulk by Mark Waid. If you're going to accuse me of something, make sure you can back it up so I don't make you look like a fool here. Thanks to respect threads on here like TheAcidSkull's one, I'm very aware of what Hulk can do. And what I meant by the one trick pony is that he lacks proper versatility in combat. Flight, speed, energy projection, fast reactions etc. Banner's intelligence isn't playing any part in a random encounter btw.

What are you talking about? I was pointing out Hulk isn't a one trick pony. I've already pointed out his versatility in combat, if you want to put your head in the sand, go ahead, you didn't dispute anything I said.

@lvenger said: And again, I don't see WWH/WBH tagging much faster opponents who have reacted to things that make Hulk look slow in comparison. If Hulk can't hit his foe more than they can hit him, what use is his raw power? You underestimate the raw power of DC Powerhouses being in the league of what Hulk can do along with possessing more versatility in their use of powers. We've done this dance before and ultimately we fall on different sides of the debate. I can support the versatility of the DC Powerhouses and you can play up the raw power Hulk has. If you want to continue, I'm more than capable of countering your arguments but this'll go to a dead end eventually.

WWH/WBH again has hit every opponent they've faced, fact. You can keep pretending he's slow but have zero panel evidence. Again you haven't addressed my comments on WBH's durability/regeneration which is LEAGUES above BA/WW's damage output. They aren't killing him in combat, period.

The only dead end is your inability to get 50 year old scans out of your head about Hulk being slow when he's been MUCH quicker and hasn't had any problems hitting people in a long time. His durability and damage feats far exceed anything WW/BA have. It's not even close.

@green_skaar: Im just going to chime in on this real quick, but your justification of Hulks speed on the basis that he hits everyone he faces means nothing. It's not a testament to Hulks speed (which I assume you're trying to validate). All it is is storytelling. Hulk lacks the reaction time to hit these characters in a battle forum, but in the comics, even though he doesn't have the feats, he will, eventually tag them. You're basically using the reverse argument of 'if Superman is so fast why is he always hit?'.

Once again, you're very much mistaken. Hulk hit a Sentry that WAS FLYING STRAIGHT AT HIM. Look for yourself

Honestly, your blindness to this fact of their fight is worrying. He has not hit fast foes who can fight like this, moving all around their opponents

That's what DC powerhouses do a lot of in combat. Show me Hulk tagging a foe who can move like this against him. Show me that and then I'll concede my position. Until then, you're very much mistaken on Hulk's track record with speedster no matter how much you convince yourself.

That's true. But this doesn't mean the feats WW and BA do have are insubstantial to take Hulk down. Because trust me they are more than enough to take a majority against Hulk. Strength, speed, durability, stamina, reactions, flight>Strength, durability, healing factor and stamina

But you don't understand that he's not that versatile compared to super fast and quick reacting foes with strength and durability on Hulk's level. Versatility is a card Hulk doesn't have in this fight

Here's another fact for you. He only hit a Sentry that flew straight at him rather than blitzed him with multiple attack. That's the actual fact in this case, something you don't seme to be grasping despite my explanations on this front. Blitzing is the first scan I show you and Thor can technically do the same kind of thing Sentry can. That does not equate to speed blitzing which is represented by the second scan where Superman performs multiple attacks on Doomsday in what appears to be the same amount of time. And you haven't addressed the speed and reactions Diana and Adam have which is LEAGUES above what Hulk can do. He isn't tagging them in combat, period and they can wear him down more than enough to counter his durability and healing factor.

This last paragraph has shown what an unpleasant Hulk fanwanker you are and it gives me great pleasure to prove you wrong once again. ALL the scans are from the 25 year Pre Flashpoint timeline. Perez' artwork looks weather to the uneducated simpleton eyes like yours but they're from Perez' run on Wonder Woman which was AFTER COIE. Do get your fact straights in case I make you look like a fool again. Your pathetic reasoning does show you up somewhat.

Hitting your opponent is the #1 important factor of speed in combat. I can't believe it's being suggested otherwise. You can claim someone is fast or slow, but if they are ALWAYS hitting their opponents, that's all that matters. If you want to suggest WWH/WBH is slow, provide your evidence, not just a naked assertion.

Flagged. I'm done discussing anything with you. @god_spawn, @deranged_midget_

@green_skaar: I was done with this conversation too which is something I'm glad of. And I've also flagged you for @deranged_midget and @god_spawn to see for your accusation that I was lying about my evidence when they were all canon scans. Along with your rude behaviour and aggressive, patronising attitude. It's a two way street you see. I may have done something wrong but so have you fortunately. We both get the blame on this one.

Hulk lacks reaction feats....there is my evidence....

Fast characters that Hulk has tagged were not utilizing their speed efficiently...more evidence...

I'll explain to you how Hulk is able to 'tag' characters who speed blitz with a real world explanation:

Killing flies is damn near impossible using only your hands. But, and I don't know if you already know this, our hands are actually moving faster than the fly. The only problem is, the house fly reacts faster than us. This may be because the action signals have a shorter path to follow or whatever, but they do react quicker than us. Our hand is flying at them faster than they can fly, as in if our hand raced the fly it would win. But, the fly can react quick enough to move out the way.

Now, you can sort of apply this to Hulk vs DC powerhouses/speedsters. I think there is a forum on here that sort of explains this, but scientifically, Hulk and really any powerhouse, move their limbs very very fast. They have to in order to perform some of the things they do. However, what the DC powerhouses have that Hulk does not, is increased reaction time to match their movements. Applying the fly situation again, think of Hulk as the human, and Superman as the fly. Hulk may be moving faster (even though he doesn't) but Superman can react quicker.

Lacks reaction feats? He's hitting his opponents, that's the most applicable reaction feat you can get. The only reason out of combat feats would ever be applicable is if that character never entered combat, which isn't the case.

Not utilizing their speed efficiently? I'm going to need some concrete evidence, not a naked assertion.

I've killed several flies with my bare hands, I'm not seeing any relevance of that analogy in a comic battle...

The problem with your argument is that he;s hitting opponents who aren't using their speed to the best of their ability. Silver Surfer has microsecond reaction reaction feats but Daredevil was able to spear him off his board, does this suddenly mean that Daredevil is as fast as Silver Surfer or even remotely on his level, no, it just shows that when not using their speed effectively they can be tagged by people much slower than them as seen in with most of Hulk's battles

Okay so how exactly are we suppose to gauge if WWH/WBH would hit someone? Since his proven record of hitting people is off the table for some reason...

So when Batman hits Superman he's suddenly as fast as him?

The fact that they're being hit by an opponent who does not have adequate reaction feats of his own is enough...

Yeah, so have I. You must've missed the point of what I was saying...You only killed those flies because your hand was faster, not because you could actively see it and catch/squash it.

Same question I posed to Dondave: Okay so how exactly are we suppose to gauge if WWH/WBH would hit someone? Since his proven record of hitting people is off the table for some reason...

You actually have to show speed feats on their level

I don't think Wonder woman or Black Adam can just completely ignore Hulk. He showed many times that using foreign random objects against opposition isn't "below" him. What's to stop such a powerhouse to hurl a chunk of earth or even a car or something at an enormous speed towards either BA or WW, they won't even see it coming since they have their backs turned to Hulk in order to face off with Bill.

At one point one of them WILL have to fight Hulk on a relatively "equal" term, how they go about that can be discussed but they can't just ignore him.

I agree Bill won't just go running after them if they BFR themselves from the planet, especially if those two really are as "powerful" as the other posters here try to make them out to be. Bill has shown that ignoring a powerhouse and bringing them down with different means isn't "below" him either. Instead of go head to head with a powerhouse like Galactus he instead opted to destroy the planets the heralds chose for Galactus there by causing him to nearly starve. If he kept that up he probably could have defeated Galactus without laying a single hand on him.

I don't know why it's just assumed that all combatants on team 2 will automatically just fight in accordance to team 1's strategy and "rules".

Bill only needs to connect once with Black Adam(For example) and send him falling to earth and that should be it, the moment the Hulk gets to Adam it's pretty much over. I can't see Adam easily escaping the grip of Hulk. Hulk could probably hold him in place with one hand and beat him into a vegetable state with the other.

So you want non-combat speed feats to see if WWH/WBH can hit someone in combat?!?! If you aren't suggesting this than his combat feats all apply.

You can show whatever feats you like, as long as they actually show speed

@green_skaar:

Feats of perception, reaction, and movement are needed. If you show me a scan of Hulk dancing around his opponents like Superman does in the scan above, I would be more inclined to concede than I am now. Show me a scan of Hulk performing task at blinding speeds, or reacting within a microsecond, and so on and I would be even more inclined to concede. Simply hitting an opponent isn't going to do it.