Wonder Man vs Juggernaut

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firefly894

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#1  Edited By firefly894

Wonder Man

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VS

Juggernaut

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Rules

  • In character
  • 616
  • Win by kill or KO
  • Takes place in an abandined city

Round 1:

  • Standard Juggernaut

Round 2:

  • Non-jobbing Juggernaut
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The_Happy_Wendingo

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Wonder man is more of in the league of the Thing and Colossus, Juggernaut is in another league entirely.

Juggernaut stomps both rounds.

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Noobmaster2001

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Juggernaut should win unless he’s jobbing or if it’s current Juggernaut. Current Marko is actually confirmed to be weaker and has clearly shown that.

However, even if it’s regular non depowered Juggernaut it still won’t be a stomp. Wonder man has held his own against characters such as Thor and is an impressive heavy hitter. I’m not sure about who wins the first round, Simon would win if it’s a jobbing Juggernaut, current Juggernaut or depowered Marko etc

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EternalDarkFury

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Juggernaut should take the dub here.

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deathoes

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Juggs both rounds

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IntentDebatThor

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Wonder man is more of in the league of the Thing and Colossus, Juggernaut is in another league entirely.

Juggernaut stomps both rounds.

This is just wrong. Wonder Man, Thing and Juggernaut are all on the same level, with Colossus being the one who is significantly inferior to them (and yet Juggernaut is the only one who struggles with Colossus). Juggernaut isn't stomping shit, and he has in fact been bodied by people by people who couldn't body Wonder Man or Thing the same way.

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EcstaticGrace

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Juggernaut should win unless he’s jobbing or if it’s current Juggernaut. Current Marko is actually confirmed to be weaker and has clearly shown that.

However, even if it’s regular non depowered Juggernaut it still won’t be a stomp. Wonder man has held his own against characters such as Thor and is an impressive heavy hitter. I’m not sure about who wins the first round, Simon would win if it’s a jobbing Juggernaut, current Juggernaut or depowered Marko etc

He’s not powered by Cyttorak anymore I’d argue he’s weakened.

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deactivated-60f8a948a0372

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Juggernaut.

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SAR_Annihilator

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SagaTheGoldSage

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Juggernaut.

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Darth_Nimrod

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#11  Edited By Darth_Nimrod

Juggernaut. He's stronger than Thor and Hercules, who are stronger than Wonder Man.

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The_Happy_Wendingo

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@intentdebatthor : LOL Juggernaut is invulnerable to physical damage so its irrelevant. Juggernaut still stomps. Okay, I might of lowballed him a little bit but not by much, I would put him around Namor in strength, which is about 2-3 times higher than colossus and the Thing but still a few leagues below Hercules and Thor, both Whom have 0 chance against Juggernaut, at least not the juggernaut with the helmet and auto shields. The only version of Juggernaut that Wonder Man can beat is the one who was depowered without a helmet, that pathetic version had trouble with Rhino and would lose to Wonderman but that is it. Classic Juggernaut wouldn't even be hurt by Wonder man, no physical might can except TK and PIS or Skyfather+ level characters. Juggernaut more often than not beats the Hulk as well, only way Hulk has any chance is BFR.

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Darth_Nimrod

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@darth_nimrod said:

Juggernaut. He's stronger than Thor and Hercules, who are stronger than Wonder Man.

At least classic Juggernaut. Don't know much about his current levels.

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TifaLockhart

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I don’t think anyone knows what Juggernaut is currently, including the writers.

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Noobmaster2001

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#15  Edited By Noobmaster2001

@the_happy_wendingo: Juggernaut is not a few leagues above Simon. That’s based on nothing. Juggernaut has been hurt on plenty of occasions, Professor Hulk comes to mind. Simon may or may not have arm wrestled Marko in the past actually. He has defeated people like Red Hulk, Atlas, Skurge, Abomination, Ultron etc and has numerous statements where he’s stated to be one of the strongest people on the planet, having Thor level strength (from guys like Hercules) and even possessing strength which rivals guys like Hulk and Sentry. He is nowhere near a few levels below Juggernaut.

Also current Juggernaut no longer is the avatar of Cyttorak, he’s been hurt by Quicksand, a fusion of Swarm and Toad and struggled massively with Immortal Hulk. That version would lose to Simon.

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IntentDebatThor

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#16  Edited By IntentDebatThor
@the_happy_wendingo said:

@intentdebatthor : LOL Juggernaut is invulnerable to physical damage so its irrelevant.

Have you been in coma for the last 2 decades? Because that's the amount of time Juggernaut didn't have his forcefield and was very much "vulnerable" to anything powerful enough to hurt him.

Juggernaut still stomps.

He doesn't stomp shit.

Okay, I might of lowballed him a little bit but not by much,

Yes you did, by a lot, and wanked Juggernaut to high heaven at the same time.

I would put him around Namor in strength, which is about 2-3 times higher than colossus and the Thing but still a few leagues below Hercules and Thor, both Whom have 0 chance against Juggernaut,

So... Colossus ~ Thing <<< Namor ~ Wonder Man <<<<< Thor and Hercules <<<<<<<<< Juggernaut? Do I need to tell you how bad this chain is or have you figured this out by yourself already?

First thing first, that chain falls apart from this scan alone.

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But there's more. Back in early 2000s Cain was depowered. This is what he said when he fought new fully powered Juggernaut:

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He was approximately at half of the power of fully capable Juggernaut. The fact that he was "mopping the floor" with him in that fight shows that the gap in power really wasn't that big. More than that, Cain at the time fought another Juggernaut that was picked by Cyttorak as his replacement and almost killed him:

So once again, he clearly wasn't significantly less powerful than at his 100%.

And yet at the same period of time this half-powered Juggernaut was struggling with lifting sub-Colossus level weights:

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That alone contradicts Colossus being what, dozens of times weaker than Juggernaut by your logic? Despite being the weakest of the people you mentioned, he is nowhere near as weak compared to Juggernaut as you imply. Matter of fact, Juggernaut would be wrecking him way worse if that was true, but Colossus is usually capable of holding his own, even if briefly. Hell, Warpath, who in the same issue was compared to Colossus by Cain, was shown to be going toe to toe with Cain pretty comfortably. Even back when Juggernaut was amped several years ago Colossus was capable of briefly matching him in strength, even though he was portrayed as inferior in the same arc:

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And once again, Colossus is the weakest in this assembly. He's not on the level of Namor, Wonder Man, Thing, Hercules or Thor (who are all on about the same level btw, there are no ridiculous gaps as you're trying to imply). To be specific:

Namor - traded blows with Savage Hulk many times and has even had a double KO with him, held his own against amped Grey Hulk despite being dehydrated, traded blows with Hyperion and broke his grip, traded blows with brainwashed Thor, regularly trades blows with Hercules, defeated Griffin, who was said to be almost as strong as Hulk, traded blows with Sentry and tanked a long beatdown from him when he was Voiding out, exchanged blows with Blue Marvel, was fighting off Blastaar when depowered, etc.

Wonder Man - was many times mentioned to be as strong as Thor and Hercules, as well as was compared to Sentry and Hulk in strength, traded blows with Thor several times and briefly one-shot him with a gut punch, beat Abomination, Ultron, Atlas (who was also said to be in the same league with Thor and Hercules), amped Captain Atlas (who even before getting amped was strong enough to break out of Hercules' grip and give him and Thor trouble), traded blows with Professor Hulk, stomped Red Hulk, traded blows with Hyperion, tanked a beatdown from bloodlusted Gladiator, tanked hits from Immortal Hulk, beat up clones of Professor Hulk, Hercules, Sasquatch, Nova and Colossus one by one when morals off, put dumb Drax on his knees with a punch, was beating Kyle Rayner in JLA/Avengers (which was canon, btw), etc.

Thing - traded blows with Savage Hulk tons of times, had a double KO with Cho Hulk, was shown to be equal to Professor Hulk several times, traded blows with Hercules, is consistently shown to be superior to Namor and Wonder Man (who he either beats or overpowers), took a massive beatdown from Immortal Hulk, traded blows with and overpowered Silver Surfer, matched Ultron, shrugged off hits from Colossonaut (who was said by Cyttorak to have more power than Cain as Juggernaut) and pulverized his helmet with a punch when pressed (while Red Hulk in the same issue couldn't even dent it), beat a Hulk robot that was said to be about as strong as a real deal, beat numerous people who were stated or shown to be peers of Hulk and Thor (Dragon Man, Darkoth, Bi-Beast), took a beating from Power Gem Champion while already being injured and broke his ribs, was brought up by a spell cast by Loki in order to find someone capable of beating Thor, along with Hulk, Hercules and Silver Surfer, etc.

Hercules and Thor - do I even need to list their feats?

Point being, Juggernaut isn't that much superior to them, if at all. Even back when he had his forcefields he was having sufficient trouble with Thor. He is a Hulk/Thor class powerhouse, not someone who is far beyond them, and the same goes for the bricks listed above.

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at least not the juggernaut with the helmet and auto shields.

Cain's helmet does nothing except protect him from telepathy and other mental attacks, and his "auto shields" hasn't been there for 2 decades, and even before that didn't exists consistently.

The only version of Juggernaut that Wonder Man can beat is the one who was depowered without a helmet, that pathetic version had trouble with Rhino and would lose to Wonderman but that is it.

That "pathetic version" was half as powerful as fully powered Juggernaut, had good showings against fully powered Juggernauts and did better against Green Scar than Hercules did.

Classic Juggernaut wouldn't even be hurt by Wonder man, no physical might can except TK and PIS or Skyfather+ level characters.

Good thing "Juggernaut" hasn't been "classic" for ages then, and gets regularly hurt and even occasionally beaten by high tiers.

Juggernaut more often than not beats the Hulk as well, only way Hulk has any chance is BFR.

He has a single win against Professor Hulk who didn't know who he was fighting, was rusty and was holding back, and three losses (against Professor Hulk in a rematch, against War Hulk and Immortal Hulk). Colossonaut, who was given more power than Cain was, was getting stalemated by Red Hulk too. He doesn't "beat Hulk more often than not", that's just fanfiction.

See, Juggernaut isn't a pushover, he has his own share of good and even great feats. But you're wanking him a lot and lowballing other powerhouses at the same time. Every character you mentioned besides Colossus will give him a very tough fight and has a real chance of winning, and even Colossus would be capable of holding his own for a bit before inevitably losing.

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KingOfOlympusZz

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@darth_nimrod said:

Juggernaut. He's stronger than Thor and Hercules, who are stronger than Wonder Man.

At least classic Juggernaut. Don't know much about his current levels.

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kakarotto01

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@intentdebatthor: Juggernaut already showed he was stronger than Rogue with Simon's powers. Oh and even Dan Slott agrees that Thor is stronger than Thing (who has written probably the strongest Thing ever).

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Noobmaster2001

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@intentdebatthor: Colossus holding his own for a bit? Ehhh. He might not get one-shotted, but unless he starts operating at the level of his higher showings he isn’t a factor against Juggernaut. Unless you’re talking about some depowered Juggernaut or something.

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IntentDebatThor

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#20  Edited By IntentDebatThor

@kakarotto01: Rogue with Simon's powers was not as strong as Simon himself was, Challenger said Wonder Man was the most powerful person fighting him when Rogue was right there. That and Juggernaut at that point was boosted since his Cyttorak connection was renewed. But if you want to bring that up, same Juggernaut, who was boosted even further by Cyttorak's temple, got his ass kicked by Thor, who Wonder Man was repeatedly said to be as strong as.

Who cares about what Dan Slott thinks? Unless it's depicted in a comic it's just meaningless drivel. And that's a hilarious level of mental gymnastics considering how badly Thor performed against IH compared to Ben.

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Noobmaster2001

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@kakarotto01: You can still be on the same level as someone even if you’re stronger. Hulk and Thor are considered on the same level, even though nobody would say they are 100% equal. IntentDebatThor meant that Hulk and Thor are solid high tiers and are considered close in strength.

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IntentDebatThor

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@noobmaster2001: if he was operating on the level of his highest showings, he would be able to straight up go toe-to-toe with Juggernaut. Aside from that, I don't see why it's impossible for him to last a for a short while against Cain.

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Underfire47

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Juggernaut should win unless he’s jobbing or if it’s current Juggernaut. Current Marko is actually confirmed to be weaker and has clearly shown that.

However, even if it’s regular non depowered Juggernaut it still won’t be a stomp. Wonder man has held his own against characters such as Thor and is an impressive heavy hitter. I’m not sure about who wins the first round, Simon would win if it’s a jobbing Juggernaut, current Juggernaut or depowered Marko etc

Current Juggernaut isn't confirmed to be weakened, in fact the whole thing is kinda nebulous, he has rejected Cyttorak but managed to use his power on his own, there hasn't been an actual mention of him being weaker now, it's all speculative and people base it solely because he got his ass kicked by Hulk. There have been a few people that have asked Ron Garney on twitter regarding if Juggernaut is weaker or not but he never answered, just that Immortal Hulk is insanely strong.

With that said I give this fight to Cain.

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kakarotto01

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@kakarotto01: Rogue with Simon's powers was not as strong as Simon himself was, Challenger said Wonder Man was the most powerful person fighting him when Rogue was right there. That and Juggernaut at that point was boosted since his Cyttorak connection was renewed. But if you want to bring that up, same Juggernaut, who was boosted even further by Cyttorak's temple, got his ass kicked by Thor, who Wonder Man was repeatedly said to be as strong as.

Because Simon was separated from Rogue by then? Wonder Man himself stated in Busiek's avengers that he is not as strong as Thor.

Who cares about what Dan Slott thinks? Unless it's depicted in a comic it's just meaningless drivel. And that's a hilarious level of mental gymnastics considering how badly Thor performed against IH compared to Ben.

Yeah, who cares what writer thinks, that only matters when its on your side.

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IntentDebatThor

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#25  Edited By IntentDebatThor

@kakarotto01:

Because Simon was separated from Rogue by then?

He was already separated from Rogue by the time she fought Juggernaut, lol. The separation happened in Uncanny Avengers #22, the fight against Juggernaut happened in issue #29.

Wonder Man himself stated in Busiek's avengers that he is not as strong as Thor.

I'll take a dozen of statements from other characters and narration itself over one statement from Simon (especially considering there are also plenty of statements from Simon himself where he says the opposite):

Bonus:

Yeah, who cares what writer thinks, that only matters when its on your side.

Statements from authors don't matter unless they were made in-comic, whether they benefit my argument or not. If the statement didn't go through editorial, it's about as worthless as fanfiction. Death of the author, look it up. The only kind of out-of-source-material statement I'll accept is the one made by an author working on his creation completely alone and this way being in complete control and having the absolute authority over his entire fictional universe.

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juggernaut

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ProfessorRespect

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Wonder Man takes it, Juggs is too unreliable and his best showings aren't consistent in the slightest.

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Noobmaster2001

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#28  Edited By Noobmaster2001

@professorrespect: Are you taking about current Juggernaut or the one who fights guys like Hulk and Thor as well as having a forcefield?

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ProfessorRespect

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@professorrespect: Are you taking about current Juggernaut or the one who fights guys like Hulk and Thor as well as having a forcefield?

Both, Juggs has been jobbing for decades lol. Let's not gas him up so much when he's barely at that rep.

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TakenStew22

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I like how "standard Juggernaut" and "non-jobbing Juggernaut" are two different rounds lol.