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#101 Posted by whoohoo789 (263 posts) - - Show Bio

I say

1. iron fist

2. dd

3. bp

4. cap

5. wolverine

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#102 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@jashro44: Beautiful, thank you those are great. i recall the lady bullseye and some of those kraven ones. Haven't seen him fight his uncle. Will take a look a reassess my post.

No problem.

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#103 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio
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#104 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16737 posts) - - Show Bio

With Daredevil into the mix I see it like this.

Iron Fist

Wolverine

Daredevil

Black Panther

Captain America

Though skill wise the are extremely close, and could still go either way. It is like a 51% vs a 49% difference.

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#105 Edited by slimj87d (15629 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get it. Are all combatants turned into normal humans? Lets discuss scenarios here I guess since OP abandoned thread.

1. All are human and equal in stats.

2. All retain their physical abilities but no healing factor and chi.

Wolverine does not have adamantium in either 1 and 2. We know if Wolverine has adamantium he would be placed in first.

Scenario 1: IF, Captain America tied with Black Panther, then Wolverine

IF has a lot of feats without Chi. his Golden Age up till his solo series he hardly ever used the Iron Fist. He has defeated a Dragon just using his own natural physiology.

Without powers, CA has defeated Crossbones and when he was completely depowered to a 95lb weakling, he was able to defeat 200+ lb super soldiers.

Wolverine, I'm not sure what he has done completely depowered. There is no doubt he has skil but he doesn't have the feats in a completely depowered form to be up there.

Black Panther has been depowered before and performed quite well without his heart shape herb. Him and Steve had performed pretty evenly when they were on the herb and formula so I'll put them at a tie.

Scenario 2: Wolverine, CA and BP are all tied. IF would be last since he lacks the stats to contend with the 3.

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#106 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: I don't view Wolverine as being much of a disadvantage here. He's shown before that even though he does tend to rely on his things like healing factor, adamantium skeleton to get the job done quickly when he feels lazy, I believe he has shown that he can easily make the adaptation when he's had to not rely out of those things either through meeting a highly skilled fighter, or being nerfed in some way. He walked all overa fresh Captain America in Origins with a healing factor that was barely working, he has handily beat Shang Chi (H2H) and a Sabretooth whom had an adamantium skeleton and enhanced physicals when he had a regular skeleton, when he had to go completely hand to hand with Iron Fist (In a sparring match mind you) he blocked shots and was able to win, when he had to go completely H2H against the Black Dragon Death Squad in Manifest Destiny and went on to drop martial artists so skilled they could make their punches attack your soul, took one glance at an ancient rock like marital artist and pinpointed, and finished him with one karate chop, etc. He can make the necessary adaptations here.

On a side note, happy to hear that your grandfather is feeling better :)

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#107 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I see where you are coming from with your logic, but I think with things like these, the OP wants to know who is holding the most pure skill for the win, in which case I wouldn't agree with your line up for the winner in scenario 1.

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#108 Posted by slimj87d (15629 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil shouldn't even be in here since we don't know how he fights without his abilities. To make it fair, he shouldn't be able to read muscle and heart twichches. His abilities are slightly hexed in this kind of fight.

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#109 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16737 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

Thanks man.

This is the way I see it, Wolverine is fighting for 1st or 2nd place with Iron Fist whom has killed dragons lol. They both have equal set of feats, but Iron Fist imo has consistently shown levels of skill while Wolverine is more of a "I'll show skill when I absolutely have to" type guy". That being said, he is not only robbed of his healing factor, his skeleton, but he will have to spend some time to adapt, as will almost everyone here. I just see him having the most trouble adapting his fighting style to a "mortal" body when compared to Iron Fist who will just be chi less for the time being.

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#110 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#111 Edited by slimj87d (15629 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I see where you are coming from with your logic, but I think with things like these, the OP wants to know who is holding the most pure skill for the win, in which case I wouldn't agree with your line up for the winner in scenario 1.

The problem with gauging skill is that we don't know how well Wolverine would do without his speed and strength enhancements. Honestly, I think Black Panther should take number 2, he's at least been shown to dodge gunfire while depowered, the only thing Steve did was defeat CB while completely depowered.

What hurts Steve and Logan in my book is that sure they are pretty skillful, but thrown in this scenario neither has shown as many feats as IF and BP have completely depowered and at human levels.

I think the comparisons are pretty close but IF and BP have a bunch of feats that just so happen to coincide with the scenario set up here, or at least the scenario I appointed.

I would have to go with

IF, BP, Captain America and Wolverine being very close, but Captain America possibly being ahead.

If you want to say just pure on skill, lets say all 4 guys get a fair amount of training while depowered then I would say IF, Wolverine, Captain America and BP are tied.

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#112 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

when he had to go completely H2H against the Black Dragon Death Squad in Manifest Destiny and went on to drop martial artists so skilled they could make their punches attack your soul, took one glance at an ancient rock like marital artist and pinpointed, and finished him with one karate chop, etc. He can make the necessary adaptations here.

To be fair he also lost to the black dragons initially because he wasn't dodging...

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#113 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

Interesting, but for me, I guage a comic character's pure skill is by looking at their overall mastery/knowledge in marital arts and showings of raw technique. When I use that qualification guide when comparing the guys here, I end up going with Iron Fist, Wolverine, Black Panther, and Captain America. I feel that modern Iron Fist after his journeys into the Book of Iron Fist has garnered the most martial art knowledge, and shows so by pulling out techniques like the Drunken Wasp Sting, the Burning Dove Chop, the Palm of Forty Sorrows, etc. and this should give him first place. I think Wolverine takes the cake at second place because he has the second most expansive mastery of martial arts and showings of technique in that he's mastered 18 forms of Kung Fu under his Master Po, mastered kenjutsu, aikido, buijuitsu, and more under Ogun, mastered Ninjutsu under Stick, has more training from Weapon X, has been implied to have mastered every martial art, and Marvel backs this up by giving him a 7/7 rating in terms of skill (Which means you have mastered every martial art) and shows technique like being able to incapacitate every living thing, including aliens. Black Panther comes in third for me because he's been noted to have don things like having studied every fighting style known to man and mastered the art of deadly combat by the age of six and pulls out raw technique like being able to bring sleep upon people with pressure points. Steve comes in last for me, or while I definitely feel he's in there league, I don't think his specific knowledge of mastery of marital arts and raw technique aren't as defined as the other people here.

I do agree that if we view this as whom has the most impressive showings while depowered, Danny or T'Challa win because of feats of holding their own with nothing.

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#114 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's what we need those refresher courses for :D

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#115 Posted by Carter_esque (6704 posts) - - Show Bio

Panther

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#116 Edited by Experio (18215 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron fist. Logan comes second

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#117 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@wolverine08 said:

@slimj87d: I see where you are coming from with your logic, but I think with things like these, the OP wants to know who is holding the most pure skill for the win, in which case I wouldn't agree with your line up for the winner in scenario 1.

The problem with gauging skill is that we don't know how well Wolverine would do without his speed and strength enhancements. Honestly, I think Black Panther should take number 2, he's at least been shown to dodge gunfire while depowered, the only thing Steve did was defeat CB while completely depowered.

What hurts Steve and Logan in my book is that sure they are pretty skillful, but thrown in this scenario neither has shown as many feats as IF and BP have completely depowered and at human levels.

I think the comparisons are pretty close but IF and BP have a bunch of feats that just so happen to coincide with the scenario set up here, or at least the scenario I appointed.

I would have to go with

IF, BP, Captain America and Wolverine being very close, but Captain America possibly being ahead.

If you want to say just pure on skill, lets say all 4 guys get a fair amount of training while depowered then I would say IF, Wolverine, Captain America and BP are tied.

I like this explanation.

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#118 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Give my explanation credit!

Interesting, but for me, I guage a comic character's pure skill is by looking at their overall mastery/knowledge in marital arts and showings of raw technique. When I use that qualification guide when comparing the guys here, I end up going with Iron Fist, Wolverine, Black Panther, and Captain America. I feel that modern Iron Fist after his journeys into the Book of Iron Fist has garnered the most martial art knowledge, and shows so by pulling out techniques like the Drunken Wasp Sting, the Burning Dove Chop, the Palm of Forty Sorrows, etc. and this should give him first place. I think Wolverine takes the cake at second place because he has the second most expansive mastery of martial arts and showings of technique in that he's mastered 18 forms of Kung Fu under his Master Po, mastered kenjutsu, aikido, buijuitsu, and more under Ogun, mastered Ninjutsu under Stick, has more training from Weapon X, has been implied to have mastered every martial art, and Marvel backs this up by giving him a 7/7 rating in terms of skill (Which means you have mastered every martial art) and shows technique like being able to incapacitate every living thing, including aliens. Black Panther comes in third for me because he's been noted to have don things like having studied every fighting style known to man and mastered the art of deadly combat by the age of six and pulls out raw technique like being able to bring sleep upon people with pressure points. Steve comes in last for me, or while I definitely feel he's in there league, I don't think his specific knowledge of mastery of marital arts and raw technique aren't as defined as the other people here.

I do agree that if we view this as whom has the most impressive showings while depowered, Danny or T'Challa win because of feats of holding their own with nothing.

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#119 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Give my explanation credit!

Interesting, but for me, I guage a comic character's pure skill is by looking at their overall mastery/knowledge in marital arts and showings of raw technique. When I use that qualification guide when comparing the guys here, I end up going with Iron Fist, Wolverine, Black Panther, and Captain America. I feel that modern Iron Fist after his journeys into the Book of Iron Fist has garnered the most martial art knowledge, and shows so by pulling out techniques like the Drunken Wasp Sting, the Burning Dove Chop, the Palm of Forty Sorrows, etc. and this should give him first place. I think Wolverine takes the cake at second place because he has the second most expansive mastery of martial arts and showings of technique in that he's mastered 18 forms of Kung Fu under his Master Po, mastered kenjutsu, aikido, buijuitsu, and more under Ogun, mastered Ninjutsu under Stick, has more training from Weapon X, has been implied to have mastered every martial art, and Marvel backs this up by giving him a 7/7 rating in terms of skill (Which means you have mastered every martial art) and shows technique like being able to incapacitate every living thing, including aliens. Black Panther comes in third for me because he's been noted to have don things like having studied every fighting style known to man and mastered the art of deadly combat by the age of six and pulls out raw technique like being able to bring sleep upon people with pressure points. Steve comes in last for me, or while I definitely feel he's in there league, I don't think his specific knowledge of mastery of marital arts and raw technique aren't as defined as the other people here.

I do agree that if we view this as whom has the most impressive showings while depowered, Danny or T'Challa win because of feats of holding their own with nothing.

lol You get credit too.

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#120 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#121 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

Uuuugh, Avengers Cap was the worst Cap Suit ever! He looked so much better in the first movie.

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#122 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yeah, the Avengers suit was kind of goofy. Have you seen the suit for his upcoming movie? Looks pretty badass.

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#123 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yeah, the Avengers suit was kind of goofy. Have you seen the suit for his upcoming movie? Looks pretty badass.

I have not seen the preview yet actually. I need to hop on that now that I think about it.

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#124 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Yeah, the Avengers suit was kind of goofy. Have you seen the suit for his upcoming movie? Looks pretty badass.

I have not seen the preview yet actually. I need to hop on that now that I think about it.

Check it out. The movie has been looking awesome, and very well made if I say so myself.

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#125 Posted by Carter_esque (6704 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Yeah, the Avengers suit was kind of goofy. Have you seen the suit for his upcoming movie? Looks pretty badass.

I have not seen the preview yet actually. I need to hop on that now that I think about it.

Check it out. The movie has been looking awesome, and very well made if I say so myself.

I concur... and "yes" the suit from Cap's first movie did look better than the one from the Avengers.

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#126 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Yeah, the Avengers suit was kind of goofy. Have you seen the suit for his upcoming movie? Looks pretty badass.

I have not seen the preview yet actually. I need to hop on that now that I think about it.

Check it out. The movie has been looking awesome, and very well made if I say so myself.

I concur... and "yes" the suit from Cap's first movie did look better than the one from the Avengers.

Movie looks way more bad@$$ than the first one. I like the first movie, but never thought it was as good as people hyped it up to me. This one hopefully lives more up to the hype.

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#127 Posted by _Goliath_ (879 posts) - - Show Bio

If Wolverine has his adamantium skeleton, I don't see why he is so low, his claws are pretty much a part of his bones right so I wouldn't really call them weapons, would you call your fists weapons? So what's really stopping him from popping out those claws, and even if he isn't allowed to, taking a headbutt from him is gonna be pretty brutal.

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#128 Posted by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist

Wolverine

BP

Cap

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#129 Edited by MaximumGeyser5 (588 posts) - - Show Bio

AAH MAN WE GOT A BATTLE WITH MY MAN CAP, AIGHT IM HITTIN YA'LL WITH THE SCANS AND THE REASONS HE WINS LES DO THIS LMAO

Cap wins simply because he is truly american and believes in his country so in return if the Winner isn't Cap, the Americans will just beat up the non patriot winner LOL JK

Captain America has a pretty good chance winning this hole thing or ranking in 1 or 2, okay first of all Wolverine is not better at H2H than him, IIRC he Beat Wolverine 2 Times, Once when he was Mind Controlled, Once in a Open field(don't remember comic) they were both sparing, and in the end Wolverine lost, and i believe the last fight was AvX when he fought Cap on the plan he still lost in close quarters, even with his Claws, so he Automatically goes over him, don't let Wolvies mutant abilities make you think he's better in H2H than Cap, he's not, if he beat him with his Claws, without em Logans gone

So onto his next opponent Black Panther, hm this is a tough one but going by what i saw im gonna say Captain America, now before i get attacked let me start off by saying, i haven't really kept up with Black Panther, and my last memory of them Fighting was in an old comic book or it never happened, so ima bit rusty, but IIRC he beat Black Panther already, but anyway, Captain America has done some impressive things that put him on T'Challa's Level, yeah im sure he put down an elephant with one blow, but Caps not an Elephant, therefor he wont just stay there and let him hit him, this fight is gonna be tough but he has done some impressive stuff with out his shield, and has beaten stronger, now if im allowed, in the Ultimate Comics he beat Black Panther after messing around with him for 3 Hours to see if he was good enough, and Panther wasn't, second of all in 616 he beat a Super Kree(i think, all i know is it was Big and Blue) with out his Shield, he Beat Rhino using his wits and no Shield, he beat Hulk with some well coordinated shots and the finishing blow with the help of Spider Man, Tanked Gambits Explosion and Beat the Crap out of Him, he landed some pretty hard hits on Onslaught and was able to bob and weave for a little while, which is still impressive, uh what else, oh he took out 4 armed thugs at the Same time, he Beat Nick Fury, hm i have to think back in drag into old documents...............

DD is a tough one, he probably might Lose

Iron Fist is a tough one, he might Lose

So until i start posting scans proving his H2H Worth, My Current Order is

Iron Fist

Daredevil

Captain America

Black Panther

Wolverine

im willing to change it until proven wrong but im going to bed, and i'll be one with scans tomorrow

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#130 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Kind of noticing the Wolverine isn't a skilled hand to hand fighter stigma with him being so low in people's lists. Lol.

That's nothing to be ashamed of when your competition is Captain America, Black Panther, and Iron Fist.

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#131 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: It is annoying though when pretty solid arguments can be made for him being better than Steve and T'Challa. It's cool though, most on this thread have seen the light and realized why James is called the best there is :D

I WILL NOT STOP UNTIL WOLVERNE'S SKILL IS RECOGNIZED!

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#132 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: It is annoying THOUGH when pretty solid arguments can be made for him being better than Steve and T'Challa.

The reverse applies as well though.

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#133 Edited by God_Spawn (42766 posts) - - Show Bio

@maximumgeyser5:

Captain America has a pretty good chance winning this hole thing or ranking in 1 or 2, okay first of all Wolverine is not better at H2H than him, IIRC he Beat Wolverine 2 Times, Once when he was Mind Controlled, Once in a Open field(don't remember comic) they were both sparing, and in the end Wolverine lost, and i believe the last fight was AvX when he fought Cap on the plan he still lost in close quarters, even with his Claws, so he Automatically goes over him, don't let Wolvies mutant abilities make you think he's better in H2H than Cap, he's not, if he beat him with his Claws, without em Logans gone

1, none of this even happened the way you have said it. Cap was losing to the mind controlled Wolverine and couldn't handle Logan's ferocity. Logan has only had 1 legitimate loss to Captain America, and that was back in the army days when Logan wasn't as thoroughly trained. This is something that is pointed out in flashback issues constantly. In their last 2 fights, an exhausted Wolverine sure didn't need his claws to leave Cap crying in pain with a pseudo aneurysm in his leg before Wolverine walked off after talking to him, leaving him there. If he wanted to take Cap out, he sure had the chance to. And in the AvX fight, Cap's shield was destrapped, his abdomen sliced open, and he was kicked against a wall in one move. Wolverine showed, once again, that he can completely turn the tide of a fight when he employs his martial arts ability. It's when he fights unfocused that Cap ever seems to have a real advantage. And speaking of the AvX fight, you seemed to forget that Giant Man blindsided him, Sharon Carter opened the door, Cap got in a final shield bash, and Pym punted him out of a jet. That isn't a legitimate win for Cap in anyway shape or form. If anything, Wolverine came out of that fight looking a lot better and could have ended it when all needed to do was slice just a bit deeper when ducking Steve.

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#134 Edited by JeanRalphio (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

If everyone is reduced and this is on the basis of martial arts:

Iron Fist has bested Wolverine(and other assorted X-men) with no chi while Logan had his powers,so without them he's at the kid's table with Cap,so to speak. Iron Fist wins after a good fight with T'challa,when it comes to martial arts,Danny has mastered all K'un Lunian mystical martial arts and most,if not all earthly styles.

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#135 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Not really for Captain America at all. When Steve is measured up next to James his training history is grotesquely vague and limited compared to Wolverine's, he's never shown an in depth knowledge of martial arts compared to James as well, and has noticeably inferior showings of raw technique. Even if you want to ignore that, James has already beaten a 100% Steve quite handily while he was extremely exhausted from days of fighting and had a healing factor that was barely working. Steve does beat out James in that he's more efficient/consistent in applying his skill, but in terms of pure skill? Steve isn't better in any way, shape, or form. Most of the arguments made for him being better than Wolverine get debunked fairly succinctly like the ones that he is as good as Batman.Steve is to 5 Marvel Earth, but not better than Wolverine. A case could be made for Black Panther though.

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#136 Posted by reaverlation (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Just like that Logan is on top and resumes being the best

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#137 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#138 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: Not really for Captain America at all. When Steve is measured up next to James his training history is grotesquely vague and limited compared to Wolverine's, he's never shown an in depth knowledge of martial arts compared to James aswel, and has noticeably inferior showings of raw technique. Even if you want to ignore that, James has already beaten a 100% Steve quite handily while he was extremely exhausted from days of fighting and had a healing factor that was barely working. Steve does beat out James in that he's more efficient/consistent in applying his skill, but in terms of pure skill? Steve isn't better in any way, shape, or form. Most of the arguments made for him being better than Wolverine get debunked fairly succinctly like the ones that he is as good as Batman.Steve is to 5 Marvel Earth, but not better than Wolverine. A case could be made for Black Panther though.

I can admit that in raw technique, Wolverine has better showings than Captain America. This is actually something I've argued myself before, something that I hate and think severely messes with Steve's character, how he constantly wins fights through the martial arts excuse, yet we have no idea what he's actually doing since he almost never shows any of his actual knowledge. Wolverine on the other hand, not only has a thorough record of his past training, but also several specific instances of his technical knowledge being elaborated on. So I definitely agree with you there. However, what Steve Rogers lacks in martial arts, he makes up for with an almost superhuman ability to adapt to nearly any situation, and an unbelievable fighting instinct. Not to say Wolverine is short on the instincts, but it's been mentioned numerous times by numerous characters, most notably Black Panther, that Captain America is constantly adapting and evolving in a fight, modifying his entire technique and approach to suit his current opponent. Kinda reminds me of Solid Snake... (AKA prepare yourself because that's going to be pretty much my main argument in our CAV)

On a similar note, Steve Rogers is one of Marvel's premier strategists, and that never shines more brightly than right in the middle of combat. I think this is an advantage that Wolverine has no counter for, Cap consistently uses his extremely tactical mind to maneuver himself into the best possible position while simultaneously pushing his enemy into a proverbial corner. Like this.

His infamous fight with Iron Spider speaks volumes for this ability of his... that said, if the thread is about who's purely a better martial artist, like I said, Wolverine has that totally in the bag.

However, "who's a better martial artist" is a totally different question from "who's a better fighter." If we discuss that, I think Captain America undoubtedly has the edge. Now clearly Wolverine will always win in a fight. He's 3-0 on Steve IIRC. But that's not thanks to his uncanny fighting skills - at least, not totally thanks to him. If you recall their very first fight, berserker mind controlled Wolverine vs Captain America, Steve still lost even though Logan wasn't using any of his skill. This implies that Wolverine can overwhelm Captain America with sheer stats alone. So that puts their other two fights into question, where Wolverine was being much more skillful, but quite clearly, his stats must have played a far larger role as evident by their original battle. If you put these two in a cage, equal stats, no HF, my money is on Steve Rogers 10/10. Wolverine beats Captain America thanks to stats in combination with his skill, but, between his own physical skill, and far superior mental skill (adapting + tactics), Captain America is clearly the better fighter... IMHO.

EDIT: And I know you're going to bring up their recent fight where Wolverine was exhausted and had a half-working healing factor, but guess what. Logan's half-working healing factor is still better than Steve's non-existant healing factor.

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#139 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Eh, several problems with your argument. James is actually quite an intelligent combatant. While watching his brain wave activities, Forge (A genius) commented that Logan's brain wave's complexity in combat where the equivalent to that of an Olympic athlete completing a gold medal winning routine while beating 3 chess computers simultaneously. That's how complex his brain's activities are in the heat of battle. Professor X(Another genius) entered Wolverine's mind during combat and was completely flabbergasted by how his muscles and mind worked in perfect harmony. He's also shown quick thinking in combat situations as well. So, while I don't think James is a dead end equal to Steve in mental skill, there isn't a ludicrous gap like you post seems to insinuate.

Your point about stats is also debunked when you look at James' history. He has shown before that he's still uses skill in his feral state like in his fights against Ogun and Mister X. Even then, James defeat of Steve also in Origins debunks the superior stats idea. James was exhausted. His healing factor (Which gives his muscles the ability to perform optimally for superhumanly long times) was barely working. People don't perform optimally physically when exhausted. No one runs their best 40 yard dash or puts up their best bench press numbers when they barely have any energy. James was most likely unable to utilize his stats to their fullest due to fatigue, and he still walked all over Steve. Even then based on feats and classification, the physical difference between James and Steve isn't massive at all, and I'd argue that Steve wins out in areas like reaction time.

Wins in comics where stats are fairly close like they are between Steve and James are usually determined by skill, and James has a noticeable edge in terms of martial ability. Add in that he has a comparable level of mental aptness in combat, he should beat Steve 8/10 in a depowered fight.

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#140 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Steve has no healing factor? Is that why when John Steele smashed his leg in, Steve literally healed in a few seconds, and blatantly said, "I heal.... fast."?

Steve's been granted a decent HF due to the Super Soldier Serum.

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#141 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Eh, several problems with your argument. James is actually quite an intelligent combatant. While watching his brain wave activities, Forge (A genius) commented that Logan's brain wave's complexity in combat where the equivalent to that of an Olympic athlete completing a gold medal winning routine while beating 3 chess computers simultaneously. That's how complex his brain's activities are in the heat of battle. Professor X(Another genius) entered Wolverine's mind during combat and was completely flabbergasted by how his muscles and mind worked in perfect harmony. He's also shown quick thinking in combat situations as well. So, while I don't think James is a dead end equal to Steve in mental skill, there isn't a ludicrous gap like you post seems to insinuate.

Your point about stats is also debunked when you look at James' history. He has shown before that he's still uses skill in his feral state like in his fights against Ogun and Mister X. Even then, James defeat of Steve also in Origins debunks the superior stats idea. James was exhausted. His healing factor (Which gives his muscles the ability to perform optimally for superhumanly long times) was barely working. People don't perform optimally physically when exhausted. No one runs their best 40 yard dash or puts up their best bench press numbers when they barely have any energy. James was most likely unable to utilize his stats to their fullest due to fatigue, and he still walked all over Steve. Even then based on feats and classification, the physical difference between James and Steve isn't massive at all, and I'd argue that Steve wins out in areas like reaction time.

Wins in comics where stats are fairly close like they are between Steve and James are usually determined by skill, and James has a noticeable edge in terms of martial ability. Add in that he has a comparable level of mental aptness in combat, he should beat Steve 8/10 in a depowered fight.

Thought speed or activity isn't really the same as fighting tactically. Wolverine thinksfast but he has few feats of fighting smart. His brain activity is so rapid to characters like Forge and Charles because his reaction time and perception are so advanced, his brain is doing way more in a given amount of time then any humans is. That doesn't equate to creativity in fighting tactics though. Wolverine has next to 0 feats in that department, compared to Captain America who is pretty much the first person you think of when discussing smart fighters.

Featwise Cap might be equal or superior to Wolverine physically, but their original fight made it pretty obvious that Wolverine is supposed to be more powerful. And he wasn't just feral then like he normally is, he was under mind control, so it's unknown whether or not he still utilized his martial arts. If you read the scene, I think it's pretty clear that he wasn't, everything from the art, to the narration, to Steve's dialogue suggested that he survived as long as he did by fighting skillfully, but Wolverine was able to overwhelmed him.

And like a said, a barely working healing factor is 10 times better to have than Steve's non existent one, that's hardly a disadvantage Logan had to overcome, and it's that healing factor that would have kept him strong even though he was tired. Wolverine also had another advantage in that fight, being he was only able to incapacitate Steve's leg because Steve was preoccupied doing something about those claws. If they were fighting on equal ground, Cap never would have put himself into that position. (That's actually another good feat for Cap though in terms of smart fighting, since much like against Spider-Man, he was able to adapt and come up with a way to disable Wolverine's claws, then did it! If only he had Wolverine's technical knowledge, then he'd know about the exposed nerve in his leg and would have done something different, but alas...)

Wolverine simply outmatches Captain America and has too many advantages over him, so their fights aren't really a good indication of who's fighting ability is superior.

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#142 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Steve has no healing factor? Is that why when John Steele smashed his leg in, Steve literally healed in a few seconds, and blatantly said, "I heal.... fast."?

Steve's been granted a decent HF due to the Super Soldier Serum.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, not to mention the feat itself is a colossal outlier among his other feats, even downright inconsistent. If Steve healed that quickly he would have gotten right back up at Wolverine delivered that attack to his leg in Origins and continued fighting.

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#143 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Steve actually has other healing feats like healing through getting burned through his body almost instantaneously, healing through gun shot wounds, being unable to become intoxicated due to his healing factor (Like Wolverine). So yeah, the John Steele feat is consistent. Steve got a aneurysm from that nerve strike. Not very easy to heal through. Even then, my point is further strengthened by the face that a nerve strike did permanent damage to James when they usually do jack to him. He was probably healing at a rate similar to Steve's at the time.

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#144 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Steve actually has other healing feats like healing through getting burned through his body almost instantaneously, healing through gun shot wounds, being unable to become intoxicated due to his healing factor (Like Wolverine). So yeah, the John Steele feat is consistent. Steve got a aneurysm from that nerve strike. Not very easy to heal through. Even then, my point is further strengthened by the face that a nerve strike did permanent damage to James when they usually do jack to him. He was probably healing at a rate similar to Steve's at the time.

You're referring to what Captain America did against Wolverine's claws? If so it's possible I remember wrong, but I'm almost positive that wasn't a nerve strike, Steve just crushed something in Logan's wrists to keep his claws in.

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#145 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#146 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#147 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Thought speed or activity isn't really the same as fighting tactically. Wolverine thinksfast but he has few feats of fighting smart. His brain activity is so rapid to characters like Forge and Charles because his reaction time and perception are so advanced, his brain is doing way more in a given amount of time then any humans is.

James doesn't have an enhanced brain of any kind. His brain is like your's or mine. Forge didn't say that James was thinking fast. He said his brain wave activities were simply so complex that he his mind was functiong like someone who was completing a gold medal routine and simultaneously beating three chess computers in his head. Xavier also made no mention of the speed of Jame's brain. He simply noted that his mind and msucles work in perfect harmony.

Featwise Cap might be equal or superior to Wolverine physically, but their original fight made it pretty obvious that Wolverine is supposed to be more powerful. And he wasn't just feral then like he normally is, he was under mind control, so it's unknown whether or not he still utilized his martial arts.

Supposed to really doesn't cut it. Even then Jame's strength was most likely negated in Origns due to his exhaustion.

And like a said, a barely working healing factor is 10 times better to have than Steve's non existent one, that's hardly a disadvantage Logan had to overcome, and it's that healing factor that would have kept him strong even though he was tired.

As already mentioned Steve has a healing facto, and seeing as hoe Logan's healing factor had been downgraded to the point where he couldn't even heal through nerve strikes, they were probably healing at similar rates. I also don't get the idea that a healing factor that was borderline not working was supposed to keep someone performing strong.

Wolverine also had another advantage in that fight, being he was only able to incapacitate Steve's leg because Steve was preoccupied doing something about those claws. If they were fighting on equal ground, Cap never would have put himself into that position. (That's actually another good feat for Cap though in terms of smart fighting, since much like against Spider-Man, he was able to adapt and come up with a way to disable Wolverine's claws, then did it! If only he had Wolverine's technical knowledge, then he'd know about the exposed nerve in his leg and would have done something different, but alas...)

That's not a disadvantage.... James also didn't have any use of his arms due to Steve holding them down, and to solely rely on his legs. Steve trying to take away Wolverine's main weapon constitutes an impressive feat of fighting smart now? I guess all the people who try disarm Steve's main weapon (His shield) during fights are tactical geniuses now?

The main problem with your "fighting ability" theory is that it next to never makes any difference in fights between top tier fighters (Where skill usually determine things). Daredevil recently stalemated Captain America and is no where close to Steve in terms of tactical ability. He simply did it through skill, which determines these kinds of fights. Given how James has shown some good tactical ability/combat awareness, I fail to see how Steve will beat him depowered in a cage fight when you've already admitted that he's extremely lacking in terms of technical knowledge in comparison to James.

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#148 Posted by JeanRalphio (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting good,lol,keep going.

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#149 Edited by GhostRavage (14922 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting good,lol,keep going.

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Yes it is :P

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#150 Edited by Veshark (10446 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 @nickzambuto I'm too lazy to read through the entire debate, but just some corrections I want to address:

1. The John Steele feat is not a very clear-cut showing of Cap's healing. After having his leg broken, Cap's leg is not explicitly shown to 'heal in seconds'. He was seen limping and needing assistance from Beast to walk. Cap does have a HF, but it's not that impressive.

2. Regarding the Wolverine vs. Cap fight: What Cap did to Logan wasn't a nerve strike. He shattered the tendons, preventing Logan from unsheathing his claws. It was an attack on the physical muscle, not the nervous system. Similarly, Wolverine's attack on Cap's leg wasn't a nerve attack either. Logan referred to it as a 'pseudoaneuyrsm' - which is when the artery is injured, and the blood pools outside the artery wall. Again, physical attack, not a nerve strike.