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Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know what happened in that iconic duel in Mustafar. Anakin/Darth Vader begins as a thundering force of nature attacking with devastating power, Obi Wan the quintessential Jedi, just about managing to keep him at bay. But as people well versed in the lore know and have consistently asked, why was Obi Wan able to even contend with Anakin when he got taken out by Dooku earlier on? It is well established that Anakin is a superior to Dooku and was literally making life hell for the Sith Lord in their duel aboard the Invisible Hand, thoroughly humiliating the Count before striking the final blow.

So, why was Obi Wan able to near-equal Vader, when he wasn't able to match the Count, a person who was humiliated by Anakin, before, and is inferior to an Anakin who is still an 8? Even considering stylistic differences into consideration, the margin between them is quite high, and further more stylistic edges do nothing to change other factors of dueling like strength, speed, precognition, durability augmentation, etc.

The answer is quite simple-He didn't. Or at least, that version of Obi Wan didn't.

Let's have a look at Vader's prowess. He is flat out credited to be a "tier 9", in lightsaber dueling, the highest echelon of Jedi and Sith capability there is, according to George Lucas, and Nick Gillard themselves:

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

Credit: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

We know, as we all do, that Anakin's mental state wasn't optimum in his fight with Obi Wan, but here, Nick Gillard outright says that Anakin's mental issues are there "even as he has transcended" Obi Wan's level. In other words, even on Mustafar, he is still a 9.

Of course, Anakin's level would be optimized if his mental state was optimum, but even in this state, he is a 9, and higher than his baseline self. And more powerful than ever before.

Some more sources on the matter:

"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi. The difference between an 8 and a 9 really is the dark side."

Credit: Nick Gillard, Ep. 3 Stunts Featurette, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAOPveZtoE

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

Credit: Dueling Jedi

There is pretty much no doubt, that even though Gillard says that Anakin suffers from emotional issues, he flat out says that even in the duel, Anakin is still a 9.

That should end the matter there, but I'd like to call your attention to one more quote:

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Credit:https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

Dangerous for whom? Obviously Anakin himself. He hasn't done it the right way, meaning he will be unstable and volatile, and more prone to making arrogant mistakes, like the one that cost him his duel. "But", he is still a 9.

This is also evidenced by the changing of his fighting style as Hayden Christensen mentions, when referred to the Obi Wan-Anakin duel:

Vader's fighting style is much more aggressive than Anakin's, much more brutal.

Credit: Hayden Christensen, Episode 3 Chosen One featurette

These quotes are pretty straightforward. Nick Gillard does acknowledge that Anakin has mental issues( in the Mustafar fight, where those issues would be there), but also outright says that despite those, Anakin/Vader was still a 9. Particularly the last quote.

And this makes sense. Anakin had gone over to the dark side, and as Nick Gillard has told us( and literally any EU book on Jedi and Sith) the dark side is a gateway to quick power.

Sure that kind of power works best when "optimized" and when "razor focused", elements which Anakin admittedly lacked in this fight, but there is no denying that the extra power of the dark side "would" be available to him.

Anakin even directly states that he feels his power growing, minutes before being confronted by Padme:

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at thegalaxy he would one day rule.He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.

He could feel his power growing, indeed.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

Another quote for Mustafar Vader being more powerful than before:

When Padmé Amidala landed on Mustafar, Darth Vader ran to meet her. Full of his new powers, he urged her to join him and take over the galaxy.

As is obvious, he is more powerful than before which is something affirmed further by this quote:

No Caption Provided

Now that it is confirmed beyond all doubt that Mustafar Vader is indeed more powerful than every version of Anakin, except "maybe" KF Vader we can proceed.

Now, to come straight to the point, let's have a look at the initial phase of the fight:

Obi-Wan sighed.

He brought out his own lighstaber and angled it before him. "Then I will do what I must."

"You'll try," Anakin said, and leapt.

Obi-Wan met him in the air.

Blue blades crossed, and the volcano above echoed their lightning with a shout of fire.

***

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried. The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.

Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.

"Don't make me destroy you, Obi-Wan." Anakin's voice had gone deeper than a well and bleak as the obsidian cliffs. "You're no match for the power of the dark side."

"I've heard that before," Obi-Wan said through his teeth, parrying madly, "but I never thought I'd hear it from vow."

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice—

But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion—"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

Some arguments have hinged on Obi Wan too being at a disadvantage in this fight. But, his only special disadvantage here, would be his attachment to Anakin. Which frankly speaking, wouldn't count for much, because his "attachment to Anakin, wouldn't in any way, prevent him from using all of his power to defend himself, which is basically what he was doing for this entire fight". Further, as we will see, letting go of that attachment didn't make any noticeable change in Obi Wan's ability. It was letting go of "other weights" that made the difference, and which is the crux point of this entire blog.

As is obvious, Obi Wan has had a pretty significant advantage before coming to this fight. Knowing Anakin's style and form in and out. Not only this, he specializes in Soresu, a defensive based style, which has proved incredibly effective against power based duelists before, such as General Grevious( days before), or Darth Maul, both being some of the strongest beings in the mythos, easily.

Yet even his Soresu is taking a pretty horrific battering here, to the point where he resorts to cheap, desperation moves to even distract Anakin from the fight. The kind of battering Anakin gives Obi Wan here, is pretty reminiscent of the battering Zonakin/Enraged Anakin gave to Dooku, possibly even worse. And that is "despite" Obi Wan having a significant advantage in knowing Anakin's style, in and out, and his Soresu being "optimized" to fight an enemy exactly of Anakin's type, where the situation for Dooku would literally be the antithesis of this.

Anakin force blasts him to the wall, stunning him, and the fight would have ended right there, had Obi Wan not known Electronic Manipulation, and "cheap-shotted"( or took Anakin by surprise) with the attack.

It is important to note, again, that Obi Wan was in his defensive mojo for the entire fight. Being centered in Soresu, or being purely defensive is his MSP, and by far. This is him in his prime, where his legendary fighting style is renowned for and literally almost all of his legendary status as a warrior is due to his supreme mastery of the defensive form. As such, opponents have rarely, if at all, used the force on him at this juncture. As opposed to when he would go on the offensive and leave himself open to attacks( as he did with Dooku, or even Maul).

So, Anakin using telekinesis on him at this juncture, is immensely impressive indeed.

Another key point here, Obi Wan has Anakin dead-to-rights( after surprising him of course), and Anakin simply tears free of that, again blasting Obi Wan with the force( the blades were crossed at his neck, obviously Obi Wan had to be blasted before Anakin could even move), and using his arms this time to keep him pinned.

So, in short, Anakin has:

1. Battered on the defenses of Obi Wan, in a manner reminiscent of how he battered Dooku, Obi Wan's extensive knowledge of Anakin the only reason he was even alive. And Obi Wan being far more optimized to fight Anakin than Dooku was.

2. Blasted him with the force, twice, one when he was even dead-to-rights. And stunning Obi Wan in a single blast, who is one of the most durable beings in the mythos.

A kind of beating which is rather fitting for a 9 to give to an 8. This part of the fight is hugely tilted in Anakin's favor.

So, what changed this inevitable fate for Obi Wan, one where he was about to be killed and was saved via a surprise cheap-shot, twice in a very short span of time following their duel? This should make that clear:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

This is actually the single most important quote in this entire blog.

Obi Wan lets go. Of every single thing. All of his fears, all of his regrets, all of his past demons. As people who have picked up even a single book on Obi Wan know, Obi Wan's mental state really isn't anywhere close to being as calm and composed as he looks in the show, or in the movies.

Note that:

Obi-Wan activated his lightsaber and stepped slowly forward. He'd fought Vader before, and he hadn't been afraid then, either. As Vader drew closer, Obi-Wan thought with morbid amusement, He's taller than I remember.

Credit: The Life and Legend of Obi Wan Kenobi

So, just to clarify, these are his innermost feelings and emotions, buried deep within, not on the surface. He has only one outer emotion, his attachment to Anakin. It's been made pretty clear as well, if we look at supplementary sources to this.

He hasn't really let go of his attachments, or his past regrets. He carries them around like a burden in his heart. All this while he has carried them around. A Jedi, isn't supposed to keep their emotions repressed, to stew( like Anakin did). He did. Maybe not to the extent like Anakin did, but nevertheless not far off.

In this section, Obi Wan makes the most emotionally impacting decision of his entire life, he lets go of every single negative feeling, emotion, and any other dead weight he has. All of his emotional burdens which have been affecting him since his days as a padawan.

Of course, the gain power from the light side of the force, as is the theme in SW, one has to have the necessary temperament. Any negative emotions or any fears, doubts, any past horrors will only hinder a Jedi's connection to the light side. As shown here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/luke-skywalker-vs-exar-kun-context-and-circumstanc/130541/

A single emotional turbulence, like fear makes such a game-changing difference. Obi Wan has let go of "every single emotion" plaguing him, all this while.

All, but one, of course. His attachment to Anakin, which will be expounded upon shortly.

Obi Wan has carried around the majority of these negative influences since his ascension to Jedi Knighthood. He has, for the lack of a better word, been "hindered" all this while, chained by the weight of these influences, dragging his performances and his true ability down. Only when he does let go of all of these, does he gain access to his real power. And that is what changes the game here.

The following section of this fight goes:

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blacksand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on. Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally. Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

There is little to no explanation needed over here. Where before he was getting battered by Anakin's power, he is flawlessly parrying Anakin's attacks here, with no strain or any hint that Anakin is overmatching him, visible. Where before he was getting blasted multiple times by Anakin's power, he is effortlessly deflecting Anakin's force blasts here, both instances being right in the middle of combat. He is, factually near-equaling Anakin over here.

This is, to keep it short, a substantial difference for Obi Wan here, if not outright vast.

This is the point of the blog. Obi Wan has attained this level, not by letting go of his attachment to Anakin( yet), but by letting go of every other emotional weight and past horrors, he has accumulated throughout his life. They would be present with him throughout, till this point, and the context of the fight has no bearing on them here. Ultimately, he has transcended his former self.

To the next part of the fight:

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.

Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell.

Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.

But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.

Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.

A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases.

The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.

Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.

He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.

And he let it go.

As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to.

But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed.

Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight.

He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction.

Obi-Wan lowered his head. "Good-bye, old friend." But the Force whispered a warning, and Obi-Wan lifted his head in time to see Anakin come hurtling toward him out from the boil of smoke above the falls, perched on a tiny repulsorlift droid. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around Obi-Wan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair.

"This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise."

"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.

Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back— Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

The important bit here is: Obi Wan letting go of his attachment to Anakin which is the factor pertinent in this fight, really didn't make much of a difference. Sure, a minute or small change is visible here, such as Obi Wan actually landing physical strikes in an instance, but apart from that, nothing else really. He was a near-equal to Vader before, and he is, arguably, still a near-equal to Vader now. Even if one wants to argue that he is an "equal" to Vader, that is still a small difference at best.

So, Obi Wan letting go of his attachment to Anakin, actually made, but a small difference. Nowhere even remotely close to the big jump he encountered when he "let go", in the first phase.

Which should honestly, be a lynchpin in indicating just how tremendous of a difference his "letting go" made, when he did it for the first time, to all of his emotional weights and past horrors as opposed to him letting go of his singular attachment to Anakin. Which should give a pretty great idea as to how significant Obi Wan's permanent transcendence/growth from this fight is, as opposed to removing a "temporary minor hindrance".

This fight is important, not only for the buildup that has led to it, and the weight it carries, but also because, in this fight, Obi Wan has elevated himself significantly above what he formerly was.

Most importantly, let us look at the impact that "letting" go has had for Obi Wan. We know, that after the Mustafar duel, he completely loses his attachment, and faith in Anakin being the Chosen One. His "brother", who he is actually portrayed as having a severe attachment to, Obi Wan just kind of, loses that sort of feeling towards Anakin. So, the emotional changes Obi Wan has made, in the midst of the duel, have impacted him for life.

So, one can only imagine the massive impact, that him letting go at the start of the duel would have had. Because he isn't just shoving down some guilt free pills for some time. He is letting go of them for life, unburdening himself from it.

While I am at it, I am using primarily the main novel for this purpose, because it was literally edited line-by-line, word-by-word, by George Lucas, and is pretty much tantamount to the WoG himself:

Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

Period.

Credit: Matthew Stover, on the ROTS Novel

As such, the novel being a part of the Legends continuity, creates a perfect focal point for GL's words to be translated into the EU, and as said, the novel is basically the WoG.

Also, to drop a few sources here, Starwars.com has both Anakin and Obi Wan being evenly matched( obviously referring to the majority of the fight, where they were indeed evenly matched), as well as a legends source:

Both powerful and evenly matched, the two former friends dueled to a stalemate until Anakin attempted to leap over his old Master, which Obi-Wan warned him not to try.

Credit: Databank, Obi Wan

Obi Wan had taught Anakin well and both fighters were now evenly matched in strength and skill.

Credit: Jedi Battles

Lastly, this is for the people concerned with stuff like "holistic portrayal" and such, and I myself though do not put much stock into it, it might be a useful point to make, Obi Wan's portrayal has been, post ROTS( while still remaining close to ROTS), his best ever, and by far.

He has the best speed and augmentation feat in the mythos right here, just "hours" after the Mustafar duel( where a lot of his reserves would simply be exhausted):

The bloodwolf alone comprehends death.

And, therefore, the sweet pungency of life . howling his mournful wisdom, into the immeasurable night, to his estranged brethren the stars.

A bloodwolf is fearless. And though the Wise Prince will fight fang-and-claw to the death, maim and kill-

He also runs.

At a dead sprint, a bloodwolf, cub in jaws, can achieve velocities of eighty kilometers per hour.

On the Smuggler's Moon, a Jedi Master with his newborn Padawan ran faster.

Nar Shaddaa itself, circling the massive jewel of Nal Hutta, spins on its axis at a respectable one hundred and seventy kilometers per hour..

Obi-Wan Kenobi-ran faster.

And on a sand-lacerated mesa, a podracer utterly butchers distances at six hundred kilometers per hour.

Obi-Wan-

Ran-

Faster.

The Jedi Master ran over one hundred and sixty-five meters per second.

More than six hundred kilometers per hour.

No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn't know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul's singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

To call him a blur, a smear of speed, was to substitute poor poetry in favor of truth.

Space contracted-time distended.

Obi-Wan was a fulmination on reality.

Obi-Wan was Truth.

Obi-Wan literally blazed with kinetic light as he blistered through the Nar Shaddaan streets. And with every impossible angle he cornered, every slow-moving raindrop he dodged, every being he spared spontaneous combustion from contact with his supernatural momentum, the Jedi Master felt his muscles, his atoms, his very essence . rebelling into pandemonium.

Obi-Wan was-factually-flying apart.

Credit: Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke

I believe the feat speaks for itself. A thing to note, there is no "upper limit" placed on his feat here. 600 km/h is the speed of the podracer which is explicitly used as an example of speed, that Obi Wan "transcends". In fact, his speed was described to be supersonic:

Obi-Wan was a Master of the Jedi arts, true, but even if his fatal duel with Anakin hadn't expended him to his mental and physical limits, his failed supersonic flight from the Dark Jedi and the wound he'd suffered dueling Fomadu had depleted not just his body but his Force reserves. Even Qui-Gon had fallen to a Sith apprentice under less duress.

Credit: Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke

Which is more than double of the speed of the podracer. And there is still no upper limit placed on him here.

No questioning it, for him pulling his body back from the brink of disintegration( an insane feat), and for displaying the best speed ever displayed in the mythos, this is something he has "never" shown before, or even come "remotely close" to showing.

Next, he has his best feat of "telekinesis" and by far, in the megalith feat:

As for the height of the towers, there are literally numerous expletives describing them as "too tall", or "very high". After that there are multiple quotes describing them as mountain level in height. The landscape is described as "unreal" and the towers are literally stated to climb to the sky. Forget that, the natives upon gazing into the sky compared them to the younger sun itself, which should give you a feel for the kind of height we are dealing with here, hyperbolic as it may seem, from the perspective of the Tuskens, it is something godly. Then of course, there are the towers blocking out the midday suns themselves.

What remained of the clan now hid, like the coward sun, among The Pillars. Legend held that a giant had repeatedly struck the mountains with a dagger here; some said it was the younger sun himself, flailing against his brother. Whatever the explanation, the landscape was unreal. Natural stone columns and crumbling obelisks climbed to the sky, some topped by precariously perched boulders. A maze of narrow passageways crisscrossed among the towers. Some led to caverns, some led nowhere. A clearing amid the tall rocks provided enough room for a cramped campground around a sacred well; banthas and Sand People alike clumped in the craggy stomach of the Jundland.

Credit: Star Wars Kenobi

Orrin stepped amid the megaliths. It was as bizarre a natural formation as he'd seen on Tatooine-almost designed by nature to form a labyrinth. Mountain wind whistled between the towers, which rose high enough to blot out even the midday suns. He certainly didn't lack for cover here. Getting a clean shot would be another matter.

Credit: Star Wars Kenobi
The other quotes, and indeed, and parts of the feat will have to be cut short as I do not have time or the necessity to fully elaborate on it. A discussion on the feat is for another day.

For the feat itself: The narration outright describes him as causing large cracks in all of the towers Orrin can observe. Orrin runs helter-skelter amidst the towers, and first, "dust" falls on him, then small grains, and then pebbles. Which couldn't be a more obvious indication that "the cracks were widening". It's a pretty simple thing, once you think about it.

Only "then", do chunks shear off of the towers, and begin to "strike all around". There is no ambiguity here, the whole place and environment was filled with chunks torn off of the towers and they were striking all around in the air. "At the same time". This much is made clear in the narration. Revert back to when it was stated that he caused large cracks in all of the towers Orrin observed( which was quite a lot, he literally was observing an entire section of the megalith forest). So, it is pretty evident that the amount of control he was exerting on the towers, literally extended to the entire section of the forest that Orrin observed.

Now, for some perspective. From far off, outside the tower forest, A'Yark observes a "monstrous cloud of dust" rising above the stone towers. This is pretty significant. It literally means that the amount of destruction that Obi Wan caused or the towers he wrecked, it was so huge, so enormous that the mere dust rising from that wreckage was not only enormous enough to rise above the towers which are mountain level in height, but also appear as a "monstrous cloud" to an observer "outside the stone forest".

A second observer, Annileen( Obi Wan's "sort of" love interest in the novel), too observes the dust, and wonders if an "avalanche" had caused it. Literally the dust rising "above" the towers makes people think the damage output is comparable to that of an avalanche.

Orrin continued to fire as he marched forward. He parted his hands and shot in either direction down the stony aisles-and then ahead and behind. He heard screaming from multiple quarters: the pathetic wails of frightened Tusken younglings. A bonus. All the frustration of the past months, all the worry of the last days fed through his body and the blasters in his hands.

"Show yourself!"

A cracking sound emanated from above. Reflexively, Orrin pointed his blasters upward. He'd been pounced on by Kenobi before-but the man wouldn't get the drop on him again.

Except the rock pillars were too tall for any man to scale, he saw. Then, suddenly, he heard another sickening snap, and a knife-shaped slab that had balanced for eons slid off the formation, plummeting toward him.

Orrin leapt forward just before the massive chunk of stone stabbed the ground where he'd stood. Above, a fissure appeared in another stone tower. And another. Orrin cast his terrified eyes up and across the long rows of stone columns. This wasn't a groundquake-by-bantha. This was something unreal-as if something invisible was pushing against the stones!

He ran forward, blasters still clutched in his hands but his arms bent to shield his face from the rain of dust. Pebbles came down, and then chunks sheared off, striking all around.

Orrin coughed as nuggets pelted his back. Another huge shard struck just ahead, and then another, behind.

He screamed. "What's going on?"

Orrin looked up as a shadow fell over him.

Credit: Star Wars Kenobi

Annileen stopped and looked back. As the crowd of children clutched at her robes, A'Yark lowered her weapon and looked to the west. A cloud of gray dust was rising into the air above the standing stones. A'Yark, who moments before had been in a blood rage, seemed spellbound. She spoke to the children in her own language-before looking at Annileen and repeating her words in Basic. "See it, Ann-uh-leen," A'Yark said. "See Ben."

....

The other Tuskens had seen Ben's defense-had seen the monstrous cloud he raised in The Pillars, had seen the corpse of the krayt. There had to be some reason these powerful figures kept arriving amid the Sand People.

....

Annileen stared, uncomprehending, at the rising dust. She knew she was in the heart of Tusken territory, and that she should follow Veeka to the safety of the posse. But Ben was still here, and so was Orrin-and something big had happened. "Was it an avalanche?" she asked as the dust climbed. "Is Ben in trouble?"

Credit: Star Wars Kenobi

For people who still have doubts, a discussion on the feat is for another day. However, it should be increasingly obvious that this is by far his best telekinetic feat regardless of how impressive you view it to be.

So, he has his best feat of "telekinesis", and his best "speed feat" and "augmentation feat"( pulling himself back from disintegrating). And all of them, by far( at the very least, the latter two, though all really).

All of them shortly after his encounter with Vader on Mustafar. So, if we want to argue his portrayal in a composite sense, or in Legends, then while he is still close to ROTS, his portrayal has been the best, of the best. Only as he gets closer to ANH, his portrayal has been that of a physically degraded warrior( though many sources still describe him as having grown in the force, especially in canon, but that is really a discussion for another day and thread).

So to summarize( in extremely short points):

1. Obi Wan was getting hammered during the initial phase of his fight with Vader/Anakin in sabers and getting blasted about with the force multiple times.

2. Obi Wan lets go of all of his emotional weight and his past horrors and obligations dragging him down. Experiencing a permanent boost. And thus, near-equaling Vader on Mustafar.

3. Obi Wan removes his temporary hindrance he has in the form of attachment to Anakin. However as we see, this makes only a small difference. Symbolizing just how big his permanent boost was, and how much of a difference did "letting go of everything" make.

4. Obi Wan has his best feats of telekinesis, and force augmentation, and speed, and by far, right after his duel with Anakin. Although I do not put much stock in "holistic portrayal" of a character as an evidence for his growth, it is not a useless point to make.

So, that will be all for this one. I apologize if the blog was too long to read or a bore. If you enjoyed it, you are welcome.

Also, this is my first blog on the site. So, any constructive criticism will be appreciated. For the same reason, try not to be too hard, if you think it is ridiculous :).

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#1 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

One point of contention:

There is little to no explanation needed over here. Where before he was getting battered by Anakin's power, he is flawlessly parrying Anakin's attacks here, with no strain or any hint that Anakin is overmatching him, visible. Where before he was getting blasted multiple times by Anakin's power, he is effortlessly deflecting Anakin's force blasts here, both instances being right in the middle of combat. He is, factually near-equaling Anakin over here.

This is, to keep it short, a substantial difference for Obi Wan here, if not outright vast.

This is the point of the blog. Obi Wan has attained this level, not by letting go of his attachment to Anakin( yet), but by letting go of every other emotional weight and past horrors, he has accumulated throughout his life. They would be present with him throughout, till this point, and the context of the fight has no bearing on them here. Ultimately, he has transcended his former self.

To the next part of the fight:

Kenobi did that in response to this:

But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and the let the living Force move him -- the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Kenobi needed a second boost because Anakin partially unhindered himself.

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#3 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

I wholeheartedly apologize if I have offended you in any way in the tagging process, whatsoever.

???

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#4 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11684 posts) - - Show Bio

tldr, I was interested at first then scrolled down and wow that's long.

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#5 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Good. The only thing I'd ask is why don't you put much much stock into "holistic portrayal"?

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#6 Posted by TheVivas (19427 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by primebonnick (4291 posts) - - Show Bio

OK took me awhile to read but i thank you for the detailed explanation of the battle because i did wonder how Ben matched Anakin's force push. Thanks much

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#8 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

That's not Anakin unhindering himself, that is just the general advantage of the dark side available to him there. Even the narration is scripted in such a way.

E:The point is, Anakin being hindered still doesn't prevent him from being a 9. Even if it is the lowest 9 possible, or a "9 bordering on 8", he is still a 9. That much is made clear by Gillard.

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#9 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by echostarlord117 (5615 posts) - - Show Bio

Gen. Discussion, my guy.

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#11 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

The point is, Anakin being hindered still doesn't prevent him from being a 9. Even if it is the lowest 9 possible, or a "9 bordering on 8", he is still a 9. That much is made clear by Gillard.

You realize that nines are all on the same level?

So yes, being hindered would put him below nine. And no, Gillard never said jack about Mustafar Anakin being a 9.

You can't apply a general statement to a specific fight where circumstances are present. A general statement about a combatant's abilities applies to the combatant in general.

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#12 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker said:

@lordofthelight:

The point is, Anakin being hindered still doesn't prevent him from being a 9. Even if it is the lowest 9 possible, or a "9 bordering on 8", he is still a 9. That much is made clear by Gillard.

You realize that nines are all on the same level?

So yes, being hindered would put him below nine. And no, Gillard never said jack about Mustafar Anakin being a 9.

You can't apply a general statement to a specific fight where circumstances are present. A general statement about a combatant's abilities applies to the combatant in general.

Not necessarily. The environment and styles being a factor in their fights does not make the level "tiny" as you claim it to be. All we "infer" is that the level isn't "enormous". It doesn't suddenly make all the combatants on level 9 equal, lol.

Gillard's comments "refer" to MF Anakin, cripes. That is literally the embodiment of DS Anakin in the movie, and GL and Nick Gillard spent literally months creating the fight, which is by far, the longest fight depicted in the PT movies. The very idea of creating tiers by GL and NG was for this explicit purpose-to show the skills of the force users in battle. For what? For MF Anakin to not be a 9, the primary battle where we actually see a full fledged DS Anakin in the movie? Yeah, no.

That said, Anakin being hindered comes from the mouth of Gillard himself, and "despite" those mental issues, "Anakin is still a 9", something Gillard says upfront.

Again, read Gillard's actual comments. He outright says that Anakin has emotional issues, and simultaneously says that Anakin has gone to level 9.

Further, Anakin had Obi Wan dead to rights twice in a pretty short span of time, one being from a position where he literally had two lightsabers crossed at his neck, and was smashing through Obi Wan's defenses earlier despite Obi Wan's pretty significant advantages. I'd say, yes, that is befitting of the kind of punishment a 9 can give to an 8.

Lastly, there is no logical basis to your argument. Yes, Anakin's emotional issues prevented him from optimizing himself to his full potential, but to what extent? You are assuming to a very high extent, but clearly that isn't the case. He clearly was proficient enough still to give a pretty sound beating to Obi Wan despite the latter's significant advantages( without which, I am inclined to believe that Obi Wan would be stomped well and proper), so yes, that should very well warrant to place him as a 9.

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#13 Posted by Gaoron (8716 posts) - - Show Bio

The context is Obi having high ground

Online
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#14 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Not necessarily. The environment and styles being a factor in their fights does not make the level "tiny" as you claim it to be. All we "infer" is that the level isn't "enormous".

They aren't just a factor. They're factors that decide the fights:

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

Gillard's comments "refer" to MF Anakin, cripes. That is literally the embodiment of DS Anakin in the movie, and GL and Nick Gillard spent literally months creating the fight, which is by far, the longest fight depicted in the PT movies. The very idea of creating tiers by GL and NG was for this explicit purpose-to show the skills of the force users in battle. For what? For MF Anakin to not be a 9, the primary battle where we actually see a full fledged DS Anakin in the movie? Yeah, no.

Holy fck. Anakin being a 9 in general is something they consider for the Mustafar duel. However they also have to consider the circumstances present in the Mustafar duel that get him fighting at a lower level.

You can't force a specification that isn't actually present in the text.

That said, Anakin being hindered comes from the mouth of Gillard himself, and "despite" those mental issues, "Anakin is still a 9", something Gillard says upfront.

That was referring to Anakin in general and wasn't considering potential context that may be present on Mustafar.

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#15 Posted by sportjames23 (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

tldr, I was interested at first then scrolled down and wow that's long.

LOL same here

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#16 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

They aren't just a factor. They're factors that decide the fights:

I know, kbro. This still doesn't put them as equals in any way. Neither does it make the margin as tiny as you claim it to be.

There is nothing preventing MF Vader from being a 9 bordering on 8, and KF Vader from being a 9 bordering on 10.

Holy fck. Anakin being a 9 in general is something they consider for the Mustafar duel. However they also have to consider the circumstances present in the Mustafar duel that get him fighting at a lower level.

Goddammit Kbro.

Listen very carefully, Vader being hindered/not being mentally sound is "sourced by Gillard". Do you get it? Gillard is the primary reason people claim that Anakin was "hindered". He is the primary source for it.

And he says, "flat out", that mentally, Anakin has issues, but he has "still gone to level 9". I seriously don't understand what is so difficult.

Give me sources contradicting Gillard's claims. Give me sources that say that Vader on Mustafar was 8 or whatever.

No? But I can give you several sources that ascertain the fact that Mustafar Vader was only more powerful. I subscribe to the "Anakin's mental state not being optimum, so he wasn't fighting well", but as I said, give me one source that puts Vader as an 8 on Mustafar. There isn't any as far as I know.

Now:

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

....

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

....

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Are you seriously arguing that Gillard is "not" referring to Anakin on Mustafar here? Because in ROTS, where Anakin has mental issues is "only" in Mustafar. As Zonakin, he completely obliterated any mental barriers or any kind of mental issue whatsoever, and as KF Vader, the damn thing is stated in block letters in the novel. These are the three instances where Anakin goes over to the dark side, so to speak.

So, going by "Gillard", Anakin "is" a 9, on Mustafar. Gillard even mentions the whole thing outright by directly referring to their "duel", on Mustafar in the second quote.

As for the last one, what do you think Gillard is referring to when he says that "it is dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way"? That's right, he is referring to Anakin's emotional issues, which are "dangerous to him" because he hasn't done it the right way. Because for people that "do" it the right way, these issues wouldn't be present. And it is still a 9. And it is still something that (presumably) Obi Wan would have to deal with in their duel.

There is no getting around it. It is just fact. Accept it as it is. There is no argument you can make that can change this, unless you have considerable numbers of never before seen sources.

And quite frankly, why you find that hard to believe is beyond me. Obi Wan was getting smashed by Anakin despite having huge advantages. Had those not been present, Obi Wan would have gotten promptly stomped. That is the kind of treatment a 9 is expected to give to an 8. If you compare MF Vader's and Dooku's performances against Obi Wan, the former honestly blows the latter's out of the water. And that is just at face value.

The main idea of the blog is to stress upon the fact that Obi Wan was, "reborn" so to speak, when he cast aside his life's worth of emotional baggage. Most likely, this would have elevated him to a very high 8, where he would have been able to near equal Vader's performance.

.

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#17 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

.

Are you seriously arguing that Gillard is "not" referring to Anakin on Mustafar here? Because in ROTS, where Anakin has mental issues is "only" in Mustafar.

Uh, no. The mental issues don't only apply to Mustafar. Anakin's fragile mentality is a character trait of his. One we see throughout ROTS and throughout LOE.

As for the last one, what do you think Gillard is referring to when he says that "it is dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way"? That's right, he is referring to Anakin's emotional issues, which are "dangerous to him" because he hasn't done it the right way. Because for people that "do" it the right way, these issues wouldn't be present. And it is still a 9. And it is still something that (presumably) Obi Wan would have to deal with in their duel.

See above.

So, going by "Gillard", Anakin "is" a 9, on Mustafar. Gillard even mentions the whole thing outright by directly referring to their "duel", on Mustafar in the second quote.

The second quote is not referring to Anakin specifically as of Mustafar. Every single quote here is talking about Anakin's abilities as a combatant in general.

There is no getting around it. It is just fact. Accept it as it is. There is no argument you can make that can change this, unless you have considerable numbers of never before seen sources.

You do like using that word, but something can't be factually true regarding Mustafar when Mustafar isn't even the specific focus of the quote

And quite frankly, why you find that hard to believe is beyond me. Obi Wan was getting smashed by Anakin despite having huge advantages. Had those not been present, Obi Wan would have gotten promptly stomped. That is the kind of treatment a 9 is expected to give to an 8. If you compare MF Vader's and Dooku's performances against Obi Wan, the former honestly blows the latter's out of the water. And that is just at face value.

The main idea of the blog is to stress upon the fact that Obi Wan was, "reborn" so to speak, when he cast aside his life's worth of emotional baggage. Most likely, this would have elevated him to a very high 8, where he would have been able to near equal Vader's performance.

Which is all fine, but Gillard has said nothing about Anakin being a 9 on Mustafar. If you want to argue Kenobi's a high 8. go ahead. But don't try and use statements referring to a combatant in general as one referring to a combatant in a specific fight.

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#18 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

Uh, no. The mental issues don't only apply to Mustafar. Anakin's fragile mentality is a character trait of his. One we see throughout ROTS and throughout LOE.

Goddammit Kbro, you don't understand.

Zonakin, and KF Vader, the two versions of Anakin which are unquestionably, according to you, a 9, have absolutely "no" mental hindrances. For KF Vader and Zonakin, the novel literally gives that to you on a platter stating it in bold words.

Aside from that, Anakin in LoE "is" an 8. Anakin when not in the dark side "is" an 8. That is not relevant to this discussion whatsoever and neither are his emotional troubles there.

So, no, you haven't addressed the last quote, at all.

The second quote is not referring to Anakin specifically as of Mustafar. Every single quote here is talking about Anakin's abilities as a combatant in general.

Which is all fine, but Gillard has said nothing about Anakin being a 9 on Mustafar

Wrong. As usual, you are wrong about this:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

"The duel"

"The duel"

"The duel"

I mean, that is a straight up "direct" statement as direct as it can possibly get.

So, what's next kbro? The duel being explicitly referred to as the duel between Obi Wan and Anakin "is not the Mustafar duel"? I would normally not believe you'd say that, but your arguments here, force me to.

Every single quote is talking about Anakin's abilities as a combatant, when he goes over to the dark side. Every single quote here, is referring to Anakin's abilities when "he had emotional issues", something which is canonically refuted for both the DS versions of Anakin, both Zonakin and KF Vader. Both of those apply to Anakin on Mustafar, where he has emotional issues, and "has gone over to the dark side". It all fits for him, and it is blindingly obvious that Gillard is referring to Mustafar Vader here.

And kbro, you are so caught up in this, that you don't realize that Gillard is the primary source for Anakin even having mental issues after he converts to a Sith. Because there are tons of other evidence that Anakin on Mustafar is more powerful than ever. It is Gillard's statements that paint the reality of Anakin's "hindrance", the argument which has been going around since forever, and it is Gillard's statements that also confirm that MF Vader is a 9. Anakin being "hindered" doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from Gillard.

Take the L.

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#20 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Considering Ben roughly stalemated ANH Vader who is stated to be more powerful than Mustafar Vader?

Probably yeah.

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#21 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger

No. But he is a very high 8. And yeah, he should be able to contend with a person whom I view among the lowest rungs of 9.

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#22 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by CelestialKnight (1473 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: I have it has ambiguous due to conflicting sources. Both Vader and Obi-Wan have been stated as weaker/stronger. Both in canon and Legends

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#25 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365

Ben had decreased as a warrior in Legends, only increasing in power.

Sure, canon seems to be taking a new direction on him. However, I doubt Nick Gillard, who followed Lucas's line of thinking would place Ben as a 9.

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#26 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: @lordofthelight: Bingo. You're dealing with two different eras.

Originally Vader was supposed to be broken and the material reflected that.

However once you get to the 2000s you have a generation that think Vader is the ultimate badass and write him as such. Which also happens to be good for marketing. The material reflects that.

So do you take the original opinion or the second generation?

I mean if Resurrection came out today Vader would wreck Maul. But in the time it came out Vader was handled differently.

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#27 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: There're no "lowest rungs" of nine. There's just level nine. They're all equals in skill, with only styles and the environment deciding the outcome of the fights.

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#28 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger

Oh, ok. Obi Wan isn't a 9 though, as he hasn't been stated as such by Gillard. His significant advantages were what allowed him to near-equal Vader, not by virtue of merit( only).

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#29 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871

That's because sources portray feats differently. Some sources may portray the same characters in a much higher light than other sources. It would be a bit foolish to go by them alone.

On the other hand, feats are what determine a character's prowess, aside from powerscaling of course. One can also argue that feats are just that, feats, and should not be argued on the basis of medium because in the end, they are what showcase us a character's real abilities. Unless specifically stated that in movies/shows the feat quality will be drastically reduced( as it has been).

Personally, both viewpoints have merit. So, just thought of laying it out there. I personally follow the former viewpoint, but acknowledge that the latter is not completely useless. Some find the latter more appealing.

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#31 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7996 posts) - - Show Bio

Good Blog.

But....why? This has been done before, has been discussed multiple times and everyone knows about the circumstances.

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#32 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: According to Leland the last source take precedence.

But that conflicts with Lucas and so around in a circle we go.

Given the Legends/Canon split Legends is now pretty clear that Vader is stronger. Canon has contradictions on Ben. Not Vader though

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#33 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Would you say peak Obi-Wan beats Dooku or Mace, or could contend as a near-equal with Yoda or Palpatine?

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#34 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid thread. Good job!

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#35 Edited by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: So what would your conclusion be based on all of that? I know different media have different portrayals, but for now this is just observation. What I don't get is what route you all intend to take based on that notion.

And in fairness, at least when it comes to Vader, I don't recall older sources establishing a clear upper limit to his Force abilities, aside from being below Sidious of course, so there isn't necessarily a contradiction. That's unless you take his lightsaber duels as proof of his Force abilities of course.

@lordofthelight:I know, hence why I asked you that. Isn't holistic portrayal about taking all sources into account, and then going by the route that is the most consistent? That's why it seemed odd to me that you wouldn't put much stock in it.

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#36 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

@azronger: I have it has ambiguous due to conflicting sources. Both Vader and Obi-Wan have been stated as weaker/stronger. Both in canon and Legends

yes, let's take material that's a decade old and call it ambiguous.

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#37 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

That's a decade old

Try this year. I literally read a new one released today at a store that's states Ben and Vader "were now old and weaker than they once were"

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#38 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger

He's probably comparable to Dooku yeah. Post Mustafar. Though I don't know how to place him really. The only thing that is certain is that he has come out solidly more powerful and considerably better in sabers, than he went in. If that's enough to place him as comparable to Dooku, then yeah. Apply the same logic to Yoda/Sidious.

The point of the blog is to show that Obi Wan came out solidly/substantially better than he went in. After that, it depends on how much of a gap you thought was between him and anyone else you want to compare.

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#39 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: I mean, if he was evenly matched with Vader, then he's above Dooku for certain.

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#40 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2677 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger

Vader is a 9 on MF, yes, but we don't know how powerful his force abilities are, in retrospect to his former self. They could very well be lesser.

He was powerful enough that he was stomping Obi Wan, yes( a single force blast is understandable, but when you get blasted once again from a position when you literally have your opponent dead to rights, not to mention, the whole time you've been on the defensive which is your element and by far the most preferred fighting style where an opponent generally has little chance of catching you off guard, then the opponent is on a different level to you). Hence the point of the blog, Obi Wan goes from getting stomped to genuinely matching him in the force, deflecting those very same force blasts under the same circumstances. It is more a case for Obi Wan's big growth than anything else.

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#41 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365 said:

@kbroskywalker:

That's a decade old

Try this year. I literally read a new one released today at a store that's states Ben and Vader "were now old and weaker than they once were"

Post if you would?

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#42 Edited by thelocust619 (7854 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: TL;DR: Anakin's confliction hindered his ability to tap into the dark side, his psyche was fluctuating on a moment to moment basis at the time. The Anakin that beat Dooku is would likely beat emotionally crippled Anakin.

FULL: At that moment, he is more conflicted than hes ever been. Disarming Mace Windu didn't mentally push him all the way over the edge, but it did force his hand politically: he could not save Padme were he to turn himself in, he had no choice but to fully commit to Sideous. To do so, he's throwing himself into a situation in complete contrast to his personality so far (killing kids, being evil) due to his commitment to Padme, wracking a level of guilt he's never had to deal with and he's trying so hard to rationalize his actions that he's willfully lying to himself, distorting his perception. He becomes so confused he literally attacks the object of his ambition...he's so insane with guilt that the idea that it was all for nothing is so damaging to him he'd attack Padme. He only comes to terms with his place on the Dark side during the infamous "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" scene. That is when he became Darth Vader in more than just title.

Meanwhile, Obi Wan is gradually tapping deeper into the Light than he ever has. He has a clear goal, conviction, drive and passion, his mind is clear. Obi Wan is reaching his peak in the Force while Anakin has just sacrificed his progress in the Light to start from lvl 0 in the Dark side, which he's torturing himself just to commit to. All he has is his natural skill, his connection to either particular side of the Force is shakey at best and the better Obi Wan does the more shaken Anakin's resolve gets, allowing Obi Wan to eventually match him.

And finally he attempts a "hold my beer" final attack from a disadvantageous position, giving this peak Obi Wan the edge he needed to capitalize on Anakin's delerium and imbalanced Force.

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#43 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Try this year. I literally read a new one released today at a store that's states Ben and Vader "were now old and weaker than they once were"

Canon source?

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#44 Posted by Vertigo- (17722 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619:

And finally he attempts a "hold my beer" final attack from a disadvantageous position, giving this peak Obi Wan the edge he needed to capitalize on Anakin's delerium and imbalanced Force.

I gotta say, I lol'd a lot at this. Good breakdown though

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#45 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6165 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: @kbroskywalker:

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thrist for revenge.

Jedi vs. Sith (2017)

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Adventures: The Daring Escape!(2017)
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#46 Edited by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it! Can't say that I disagree with it anywhere.

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#47 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: @kbroskywalker:

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thrist for revenge.

Jedi vs. Sith (2017)

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Adventures: The Daring Escape!(2017)

I suppose it's possible that ANH Kenobi and Vader degraded but Rebels Kenobi and Vader improved.

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#48 Edited by Dernman (25972 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know why people had such a problem with this. It was clear that Anakin was new to this side and way off his game. Not to mention Kenobi devastated but more in control of himself.

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#49 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: You're trying too hard. We've long been told that Obi-Wan has declined in Legends, and in Canon we've still got Lucas' Word of God and now this, apparently.

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#50 Posted by BOLTOK100 (721 posts) - - Show Bio

Or the truth is Anakin choked like a lil bitch-kappa