At this point, 17. While his infinite stamina and barriers are huge, I find his battle wits to be as just as much of a factor against someone like Kale. Not a stomp, but 17 takes the majority. Smarter, and notably more versatile.
Kale going all out berserk should be stronger. That being said her berserk mode makes her less intelligent and I can see 17 winning by outlasting her stamina, but I feel like Kale can win through sheer force. So I said either way.
Control Berserk Kale is a bit below SSJ God Goku, so while 17 will have some difficulty, he should just win by being a better fighter and holding his own against stronger opponent.
At this point, 17. While his infinite stamina and barriers are huge, I find his battle wits to be as just as much of a factor against someone like Kale. Not a stomp, but 17 takes the majority. Smarter, and notably more versatile.
I have to agree with the majority here, 17 has consistent power at Blue levels of power all the while having a calm mentality, tactical thinking, and infinite energy to boot. While Kale is powerful enough to rival Blue in her berserker form, we can't deny she was struggling with God Goku in their second bout. Now was Goku actually stronger in this fight due to a Zenkai boost after everything that had happened? Possibly. But still, her power is inconsistent, even when focused. Not to mention Goku was probably not going all out in their first fight as it was still quite early in the tournament.
17 is far more consistent and lasted far longer for a reason. He's a born fighter and a natural talent at winning battles, not to mention all his natural advantages. Kale, while powerful, is not experienced nor particularly talented at fighting, at least not to the same degree. I would definitely put 17 in the winner's chair for this one.
Kale and Caulifla both fought SSJ2 Goku who was weakened and were losing. Against 17 Goku immediately went blue. If that’s not enough Kale and Caulifla actually marveled at Goku SSJ3 power and wanted to obtain that for themselves. 17 is fighting god tier opponents in the tournament solo. Kale needs a fusion to do that. It’s so painfully obvious. People are saying Kale is god tier, no she isn’t. Knocking up a ki blast from a super suppressed, fatigued SSG goku doesn’t put her on that level. Not even close. She’s at absolute best around SSJ3 goku from what I’ve seen. 17 is just below SSB. Higher than SSG. Smh 17 has the advantage in every area. He stomps both Kale and Caulifla if were being honest. Kefla stomps him though.
Some people misunderstand her walking through Blue gokus kamehameha. Goku was at SSJ2 and turned SSB and said I’ll let out a little more power sensing SSJ2 wasn’t enough and that’s SSB would have obviously the better ki control so letting out a “little more power” doesn’t mean he wasn’t using Full power SSB. He was just using something stronger than his current SSJ2 state but not by much. He probably thought he let out just enough but obviously he was wrong. She constantly grows too so that could also play a factor on why he miscalculated. If he thought she was that powerful he wouldn’t have stayed at ssj2 for that long. In some shots he is casually blocking both Kale in her mastered form and Caulifla and smiling. Goku in ssj2 is absurdly powerful. I’d say towards the end the growth of Kale and the teamwork of the two forced him into SSG but he could’ve taken it in SSJ3 if the form was stable and had little ki leakage like SSJ and SSJ2. We’ve seen krillin beam struggle and SSB goku. Doesnt put him at Goku level
@ssgssj4_debater: except Kale Berserk mode did got Jiren attention a bit, and honestly the all Goku holding back seem less credible when 17 fighting Goku SSJ Blue is now consider credible. So if that consider credible and Kale getting notice by Jiren and being able to walk through SSJ Blue Kamekameha, I said is around Blue level.
Also I just assume Kale more control form just got a boost and not the same level as her Beserk.
@ssgssj4_debater: except Kale Berserk mode did got Jiren attention a bit, and honestly the all Goku holding back seem less credible when 17 fighting Goku SSJ Blue is now consider credible. So if that consider credible and Kale getting notice by Jiren and being able to walk through SSJ Blue Kamekameha, I said is around Blue level.
Also I just assume Kale more control form just got a boost and not the same level as her Beserk.
Seems about right. Her Beserk state is more like a brick wall that's hard to destroy moreso than anything else. Her controlled state seems to even out the power across all aspects, though in that regard it's not too high because it's all evened.
@jgames: @wolfrazer: Incorrect. It was stated more than once I believe that her controlled berserk form is more powerful than her previous beserk form. Goku was confident in taking both Kale and Caulifla in his weakened SSJ2 state. They even marveled at his SSJ3 and wanted to obtain power like that themselves. SSJ3 Goku >>> Kale and Caulifla. They wouldn’t have been so impressed by Goku SSJ3 if he wasn’t more powerful than them. He even said he got carried away and went SSJ3 and then descended back into SSJ2. The intention was to have SSJ3 be stronger than the two female saiyans. You might be able to argue Kale is as strong or stronger than ssj3 because of her ki forever rising. But that’s it. A fatigued super suppressed goku in SSG wasn’t still much much much much more powerful than both of em. Obviously Goku was suppressed in Blue. There’s no other way to interpret this. It was miscalculation of power by Goku and a homage to the Broly scene, don’t misinterpret things here. And Kale made Jiren move a little so what? Kefla didn’t, so would that make Kale stronger than Kefla? Lol of course not. Golden Frieza didn’t either and they’re SSB level fighters. Goku in his SSJ2 state while trying to regain power was able to fight against a stronger Kale and Caulifla. Nothing else to say. She’s nowhere near Blue level. Not even close. Gohan >>>>> Kale. 17 has proved himself as well, he’s blue tier no question. Or else he wouldn’t be in this tournament anymore. He held his own against pre transformation Toppo (SSB-SSBKK level) and pushed Goku to Blue within seconds bodying gokus SSJ forms with ease while suppressed. Kale isn’t touching him so you cant compare the two. Goku was toying with Caulifla and Kale in SSG one shotting Caulifla and then throwing the same ki blast at Kale and she deflected it. It proved she was stronger than Caulifla by a decent amount but that’s it. At best Kale is equal or slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. If you say she’s Blue level she’d be easily thousands of times above the same SSJ2 goku that just 1v2d both of em which is completely illogical. And if she was Blue level then why’d a potara fusion of a SSB + SSJ2 level fighter result in a fighter being less than SSB? Initially she should be above SSB meaning in Base. Why did Kefla even need to turn SSJ to match Gokus SSB if Kale is already on that level? Look at their potara fusion. It is the Sum of eachs parts meaning max power times several sets of tens. SSJ2 (Caulifla)+ SSJ3 (Kale) x MULTIPLE sets of tens would make complete sense to be god tier. Especially with a stamina drained SSG Goku. It’d boost their power in the god ranges of power right off the bat. Saying Kale is blue tier doesn’t go with anything shown and has no evidence behind it supporting the claim besides an obvious homage to Broly on Gokus miscalsculation. It’s the opposite. Nothing supports them individually being that strong. That’s why the potara were needed in the first place to combat Goku.
@ssgssj4_debater: I never said she was Blue, all I was saying is that her berserk form is more a brick/tank wall more than anything while her controlled form is evened out.
@ssgssj4_debater: okay that is a huge wall of text , and honestly it look like she just got a power boost to her form rather than being same level as Berserk similar to how kid buu is not stronger than Super Buu despite being told he got stronger.
Also the all SSJ Blue holding back never been proven since he does seem to use it when needed, otherwise he waste his energy and plus SSJ Blue is stronger than SSJ God red so that doesn't make sense, but than again power level in general does not make sense as they refused to explain stuff like Vegeta new transformation bc screw explaining things like how the hell 17 got so strong.
So I am going to take it as face value since is the easiest explanation than yours which is lots and lots of assumption.
@jgames: If you’re not going to bother reading any of it and just use your headcannon and ignoring statements and a whole bunch of other stuff it’s on you. Point is, if it took a potara fusion that adds max power level + max power level x SEVERAL SETS of tens to be on Blue level why is Kale on SSB level. Base Kefla would be above SSBKKX20 level with ease considering potara is possibly over thousands of times boost. And both of them wanted the power of SSJ3 Goku and he admitted he got carried away. He took them both in SSJ2 while fatigued. Goku miscalculating in SSB is a mistake on him. If you take things how they are like you’re saying you do, you must believe Krillin is SSB or at least god tier. Re read what I posted please, it’d help you understand and i feel like I’m repeating myself here.
@flashback0180: Base Toppo is Blue level at the least. Kale was getting thrashed 1v2 against a fatigued SSJ2 Goku. Illogical much. Jiren stopped Kale, but it doesn’t be mean it’s what it took to stop her. Dyspo could’ve done it. 17 could have, Toopo could have, Gohan could have, Goku, Vegeta, Hit if he wanted to, lol anyone god tier+ could have stopped her. That’s like saying it took SSB Goku to overwhelm Krillin therefore Krillin is SSG level+. Lmao
@ssgssj4_debater: I did read and again due to DBS crap writing, yes. SSJ Blue goku beat the crap out of Mystic Gohan, fight evenly with 17 and was going to overwhelmed Krillin. So aside from the Krillin thing which again crap writting, the fact that Kale did steam roll SSJ Blue does give indication that she supposed to be potray as that strong especially when the only outlier is Krillin. I mean granted what you said could be valid bc again DBS writting is terrible when it comes to power level and explaining them so yours could be valid, I am just going with the easier explanation that does not involve potara fusion math because there no way in hell the writters care about that.
@jgames: I get what you’re saying but I just don’t understand why you’d go with the one inconsistent, obvious homage showing of her walking through a blue kamehameha over her getting thrashed by a fatigued SSJ2 Goku with the help of a full power Caulifla. And goku while suppressed and fatigued in SSG smashed them and pretty much elimanted them with no difficulty. Eh, whatever.
@ssgssj4_debater: Again the problem lies with is Control Kale as strong as Berserk. I said no, since it dies not look like that, but they said she goy stronger, but is that a comment on her form or her pwer level overall? So I am not blaming your thought process, just the show writing. Maybe we get more info after the arc.
@ssgssj4_debater: Again the problem lies with is Control Kale as strong as Berserk. I said no, since it dies not look like that, but they said she goy stronger, but is that a comment on her form or her pwer level overall? So I am not blaming your thought process, just the show writing. Maybe we get more info after the arc.
Legendary Kale walked thru SSB Goku's Kamehameha, controlled Kale had trouble with a generic albeit big Ki attack from SSG Goku... Also Jiren deemed it necesary to act when LSSJ Kale appeared, and not for controlled Kale.
Kale needed help from Caulifla to even hold her own against a suppressed and fatigued Super Saiyan God Goku, who No.17 was shown to surpass when he fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That speaks for itself.
Berserker doesn't really make much of a difference. SSJB Goku was clearly suppressed against her, and at full power he's around as strong as full power 17.
All-in-all, unless I've got something wrong (do inform me if I have), I personally think 17 wins with little difficulty.
@acausality: Just a correction, when Kale and SSG Goku were fighting, it was close enough between the two of them, but Caulifa was simply getting batted away whenever she tried to land a hit on Goku. Kale didn't need Caulifla against Goku, Caulifla was so far out of her league against SSG Goku she wasn't even a factor in the fight until she fused with Kale.
But yes, 17 being able to stand up to GoD Toppo for as long as he has already with just his quick wits and infinite energy reserves will beat Kale. Kale is far less stable and a much less disciplined fighter, acting more like a sledgehammer than a skillful fighter.
@nilok: Good point. What I was trying to imply was Kale could only hold her own for a short period of time against SSG Goku (who was fatigued and suppressed).
I do think though, if Caulifla didn't jump in all those times and get thrown away like trash, Kale would of put up a shorter fight due to Goku not being distracted.
The only statistic Kale really wins in is brute force, and even that's debatable.
@jgames: It’s a thing called ki control. Goku can output power from Base to max blue levels of power. SSJ2 goku > Kale. Her controlled state regardless of your head cannon, is more powerful.
@acausality: I was speaking of Kale's controlled LSSJ state as that is was the form she was trading blows with SSG Goku in. I have no idea how strong her berserk LSSJ state is compared to SSG, only that it is more powerful than SSJ2+, enough so that Goku had to use SSB to get into that output range. My headcanon is that it is at least SSJ3 level, but I can't say that with any certainty.
Just to add on to a few points for people who think kale is ssj blue tier
The entire time kale was thrashing around ssj blue goku he took absolutely no damage at all none and was smiling ready to fight again and then her controlled stated which is stronger than her berserker state was losing to ssj2 and ssj god goku so it’s clear goku was suppressed unless people somehow believe goku needed ssj blue to beat ribrianne when she was losing to base goku and vegeta
@jgames: How is it headcannon? SSB struggles with Krillin, there is no other explanation than ki control which is why Vegeta SSB didn’t kill Trunks when he fought him. SSJ2 Goku has been shown to be superior to Kale and Caulifla and he wasn’t full power. That’s concrete. Kale isn’t god tier. That’s not headcannon, that’s fact.
I told you all not to sleep on 17. Toppo was unable to eliminate him despite having a massive power advantage. Now he is about to take on Jiren. Kale is not even in his league at this point.
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