Who is physically stronger: Captain America or Kingpin?

This isn't really a battle, but I really didn't know where else to post it.

Between Captain America and the Kingpin, who possesses more raw strength? Going off of feats, I'm inclined to go with Kingpin...but every source insists he is not superhuman; Captain America is the absolute peak of human....well, everything. That includes strength. So by that logic he should be stronger.

But which is it?

@blackstripe: should be Cap from the insignia but we go by feats up in hurr!

Classic Kingpin?

cap

@leo-343: Classic Spiderman wasn't all the strong iirc.

Cap

@leo-343: I'd have to recheck but Spidey, when he first came to paper, was a normal human with enhanced senses.. I donno about him being strong but I know it evolved over time

@iragexcudder: No, I think he was always supposed to have strength proportionate to the strongest spider.

@slimj87d: yep, just rechecked his debut. "Strength of a gigantic spider" & he clamped a steel pipe so he's pretty strong

@leo-343: Depends on what you mean by "classic" Spider-man. the feats you're describing are from 90s or later. At least they're after the publication of the Marvel Handbbook.

Spidey's strength has varied a lot over the years. What I'd call "Classic Spidey" was the version we saw in the 60s and early 70s when Stan Lee and later Roy Thomas were writing the stories. Stan's idea was that Peter had the "proportionate strength of a spider. He was a little vague about what he meant but it seems to have been based on the commonly reported statement that an ant can carry many times its own body weight (30 times and 50 times are the two claims I've seen most often. In other words, the 165 lb Spidey could lift/carry about 5000-8000. This fluctuated but generally, Spidey could do things like lift (with some difficulty) or toss a car. Aside from a fair bit of the 7os when writers seemed to forget he had super strength at all, this was pretty consistent.

Kingpin was conceived by Stan Lee as someone who was a match for strength with Spiderman. Those of us reading the books way back then didn't ever really buy the idea that "...it looks like fat but it's solid muscle." He was too freakishly strong and would do things like pull the carpeting of a room loose with his bare hands, or hit Spider-man with an oaken desk like it weighed no more than a folding chair.

Captain America was very strong but he would often run into gangs that had a (non-super) thug who was bigger and stronger than him. He would trounce these guys easily using leverage and skill, but it was clear he wasn't as strong as the strongest normal humans. He, Daredevil, Falcon, and the Panther all seemed to operate on about the same level of strength and agility through the 60s and 70s.

Kingpin was much stronger than Cap. Here are some scans from the first time they met, in Captain America 147 in 1972.

So, classic Kingpin was a match for classic Spidey and much stronger than classic Cap. Then Marvel Handbook came out in 1982 and everything changed. It was decided that Cap was the peak of human perfection, faster than a sprinter, tougher than a marathoner, more agile than a gymnast and stronger than a weightlifter. The 800 lbs lifting thing was attached to him and, for the most part, it was a good thing. Cap had never been that strong before but, with the super-soldier serum, it made sense.

Spider-man got a huge upgrade. Handbook listed him as being able to lift 10 tons. I have no idea where Mark Gruenwald came up with this number; it was far above anything Spiderman had ever done, and it was much greater than the proportionate strength idea could justify. I think he made it up because it sounded good and writers have stuck with it or exaggerated it with Spider-man lifting 30 ton train cars and 50 ton tanks.

Gruenwald also decided to ignore all of Kingpin's feats of strength and said he could lift as much as an Olympic weightlifter. It was a huge downgrade. I think a lot of writers realized this and continued to write Fisk as inhumanly strong, the way Stan Lee had created him, rather than go with the numbers Gruenwald had pulled out of thin air.

I was rally excited by Handbook when it came out but have been very disappointed by it ever since. I'd rather go with what the writers and artists who created the characters thought than with the official stats from the Handbook. I think it was a good idea but was carried out poorly with not enough research and one writer (who I'm afraid I don't consider a very good writer) given way too much authority.

But that's just me.

Well the scans posted above speak for themselfs, but I have no idea of the context.

Conceptually it should be Cap.

Gallery

@matthew1061: These date back all the way to Amazing Spider-Man #33 by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Doesn't give an exact weight but, judging by the size of that thing, I'm guessing it weighs considerably more than a car. Stan Lee always intended Spider-Man to be incredibly strong...it was the writers that took over after him that seemed to forget that.

Strength: Fisk

Speed: Steve

Durable: Fisk

Classic Kingpin. The thing that made him so great back in the day was his uncanny strength.

By feats, I'd have to say Kingpin.

On paper, Cap is supposed to be stronger.

@shawnbaby: ASM issue 33 had a cover date of Feb 1966 (Edit: Ok. I pulled an all nighter and I'm tired. I read date, not weight. My mistake.)

As for this thread?

Classic Kingpin has the feats. Modern Kingpin doesn't.

Kingpin has the feats, in both comics and cartoons. In the 90's Spider-Man cartoon, Fisk flipped a giant robot by picking up its FOOT while Captain America had trouble using his shield. He was also the only one to be able to break out of identical shackles that had managed to hold both Spider-Man and the Rhino, but weren't enough for him.

king pun is stronger

Cap has to be stronger, there's literally no reason for Wilson to be stronger than him

Captain America

@shawnbaby: Yes, this is Lee/Ditko, and you're right, Spidey was meant to be much stronger and faster than a human being. I'd also agree that looks like it weighs more than a car, though it's really hard to say how much more. At a guess I'd say it's several tons but I doubt it's anything like 10 tons.

The other thing to keep in mind about Spidey is that, from the beginning, freakishly strong but (supposedly) non-super characters have been able to give him a hard time. In addition to Kingpin, Stan Lee created Ox from the Enforcers and Man Mountain Marko, both of whom were able to match his strength.

I would say that even classic Kingpin doesn't have very many objective strength feats. All his best strength feats are against Spider-Man...who is famous for not using his full strength again "normal" humans.

Kingpin is higher than the peak-humans, He has proved over time

-He defeated Captain America, Falcon saved the day.

-Red Skull faced Kingpin in a cloned body of Captain America, but it was useless, Kingpin treated him like an idiot.

-Black Panther faced Kingpin recently, Black Panther was thrown by Kingpin like a rag doll.

Kingpin is definitely superhuman. low level, 1800 lbs or 1900 Lbs. This is less than 1 toner (2200 lbs)

Captain America is 1200 Lbs.

Kingpin has ridiculous strength feats like tearing down a flight of stairs made of steel with his bare hands and swinging around a 3,000lb barbell as a weapon like a baseball bat.

Kraven is rated 2 tons, ridiculous, Kraven must be 6 or 7 toner, he traded punches against Spider-man naturally when Spider-man was 10 toner.

''but,...but,...but,...Spider-man contain his punches.''

hahahahahahahahahaha Typical justified...No! Spiderman never contain against Kraven, maybe against Kingpin, but not against Kraven, ever.

It's close regardless of who is actually stronger.

Classic Kingpin is in a league of his own, but I think Current Kingpin is a generally a notch below Pre Secret Wars Steve.

Captain America is not superhuman, he is not impressive. Captain America can bench press 1200 lbs.

The World record is 1102lbs.

The record of bench press was 1095 Lbs, so Captain America was 1100 lbs, but the record was broken up is 1102 lbs, so ... the writers Increase Their strength, Captain America Increased from 1100 lbs to 1200 lbs.

Records are there to be broken. Soon the writers will have to increase the strength of Captain America again. He would always be slightly above the world record in any sport, just slightly, nothing more.

They are very close I would say Cap might have an advantage but its damn close

So can this guy also rip through steel like nothing after being stabbed and drugged out?Didn't think so. These guys ain't got sh*t on Cap.

Kingpin

He can fight Spiderman.

DAREDEVIL

BATMAN

Captain America rip through steel just like Daredevil and Batman can break walls.

PIS !!!!!

@abraham700 said:

@super saiyan videl said:

@abraham700 said:

Captain America is not superhuman, he is not impressive. Captain America can bench press 1200 lbs.

The World record is 1102lbs.

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The record of bench press was 1095 Lbs, so Captain America was 1100 lbs, but the record was broken up is 1102 lbs, so ... the writers Increase Their strength, Captain America Increased from 1100 lbs to 1200 lbs.

Records are there to be broken. Soon the writers will have to increase the strength of Captain America again. He would always be slightly above the world record in any sport, just slightly, nothing more.

So can this guy also rip through steel like nothing after being stabbed and drugged out?Didn't think so. These guys ain't got sh*t on Cap.

DAREDEVIL

BATMAN

Captain America rip through steel just like Daredevil and Batman can break walls.

PIS !!!!!

dafuq!!! did batman just kick through a tree there?

Wilson, but it isn't by much.

Red Skull admitted Fisk was stronger than him when they fought.

Kingpin is stronger overall, but Cap is stronger in some areas, like rotational movement.

I was going to say Kingpin but when I think about it, I'm not sure.

The Kingpin is stronger.

Here's how it is from my perspective.

Classic Kingpin (70s) >>>Captain America.

Modern Kingpin<Captain America.

Captain America is at the zenith of human potential. You add that with his speed.....one hit would probably kill Kingpin.