Who is Marvel's street-level King?

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Supermanwithatan01

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The Scenario:

  • This is a round robin-style tournament
  • Each combatant has standard equipment and is placed in a room before the fight. They find out who they're fighting during that 1 hour.
  • Each combatant is fighting to the best of their ability, utilizing all of their skills, and we are to evaluate them as if it's live or die situation for each of them and their families/friends

The Combatants:

  • The Immortal Iron Fist Danny Rand (full Shou-Lao chi)
No Caption Provided
  • The Wolverine James "Logan" Howlett
No Caption Provided
  • The Gorgon Tomi Shishido (grass-cutter, no-stone gaze)
No Caption Provided
  • The Black Panther King T'Challa (vibranium-energy absorbing suit)
No Caption Provided
  • Spider-Man Peter Parker (Idk if his current suit is still high-tech or not but it's acceptable of it is)
No Caption Provided

The Rules:

  • Morals are off for everyone here
  • Win by Death, KO or incapacitation
  • Everyone is at their best, so no low-balling feats
  • Battle takes place in New York city -- fight begins in Grand Central Terminal
No Caption Provided

What I'd like to know...

  • Can any of the combatants go undefeated?
  • Who wins the tournament?
  • How would you rank them in terms of street-level king?

I know they all have different advantages, but who has the best set of abilities + skill (not just hand to hand but proficiency with their gifts) and willpower to win this tournament?

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Wabubub

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I've always considered Spidey at the top of street tier, but under these conditions I would back Black Panther due to his vibranium everything. That just isn't something other street tiers are prepared for typically.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@static_shock apologies -- I have stopped tagging you in threads at your request, but I was hoping to get your opinion on this thread if you're willing.

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ToughBrick

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#5  Edited By ToughBrick

Peter will always be a step above the rest. His spider-sense coupled with raw speed makes him the best at avoiding damage here by far, he's easily the strongest physically, and his webbing gives him an easy incap option for opponents he can't put down physically like Logan. Honestly, no non-Spider street levelers really come all that close to him when he's at his best.

Who comes 2nd, on the other hand, is a more interesting question. I'd probably rank them something like this,

  • T'Challa
  • Gorgon
  • Logan
  • Danny

But it's not a simple A > B > C > D. Each of them have good and bad match-ups. I would say the outcomes of their fights would be something like,

T'Challa vs Gorgon: T'Challa wins due to gear, Gorgon has the physicals and possibly skill advantage but can't really hurt him, meanwhile T'Challa can eventually decapitate him.

T'Challa vs Logan: Toss up. Logan can easily pierce the suit and kill T'Challa, but T'Challa can just as easily use his energy daggers to bypass Logan's adamantium and destroy his heart or brain. They're about equal in strength and speed, maybe a slight skill advantage to Logan. Maybe Logan would take it 51/100 times, but it's too close for me to pick a decisive winner.

T'Challa vs Danny: T'Challa already beat him when he was bloodlusted and could have killed him during the fight. Only difference is he'll suffer less damage this time (not to say that it's an easy fight, of course).

Gorgon vs Logan: Already happened multiple times, Gorgon stomps him again. Bad matchup for Logan.

Gorgon vs Danny: I'm not entirely sure about this one. Danny probably has enough raw power in his punches to KO Gorgon, but he's heavily outclassed in everything else. I think it's more like for Gorgon to take Danny out first.

Logan vs Danny: Danny can't put him down, has worse physicals in everything except speed, and is less skilled. He doesn't win this.

So to summarise,

  • Peter wins every fight due to his ridiculous stats, spider-sense and webbing.
  • T'Challa wins 2 comfortably due to his gear and then is 50/50 against Logan.
  • Gorgon wins 2 due to his stats and healing factor.
  • Logan is 50/50 against Panther but otherwise doesn't win any.
  • Danny doesn't win any.

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Floopay

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Spiderman has been and continues to be the universal example of "Peak Street Level".

Yes, there are other street levelers that can beat him; but he's pretty much balanced with a bit of everything.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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The_Hajduk

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It's either Spider-Man or Captain America who isn't here for some reason.

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Supermanwithatan01

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It's either Spider-Man or Captain America who isn't here for some reason.

I didn’t include Cap because he doesn’t have the beat track record against Logan, I don’t think he’d beat Spider-Man, and Black Panther is essentially his equal hit with better gear. I think he’d lose a 1 v 1 to everyone here.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@floopay said:

Spiderman has been and continues to be the universal example of "Peak Street Level".

Yes, there are other street levelers that can beat him; but he's pretty much balanced with a bit of everything.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Do you think he loses any of the battles against these guys?

Any particular street-levelers you believe would take a majority against morals Pete?

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Punyaamrit

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if MJ and aunt may is in danger and spidey is morals off then all the other characters are lambs taken to a slaughter

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HydratedFubuki6

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Peter > Danny > Wolverine

Peter most likely be undefeated.

Danny only loses to Peter.

Wolverine only loses to Danny and Peter via K.O.

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Supermanwithatan01

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Peter will always be a step above the rest. His spider-sense coupled with raw speed makes him the best at avoiding damage here by far, he's easily the strongest physically, and his webbing gives him an easy incap option for opponents he can't put down physically like Logan. Honestly, no non-Spider street levelers really come all that close to him when he's at his best.

Who comes 2nd, on the other hand, is a more interesting question. I'd probably rank them something like this,

  • T'Challa
  • Gorgon
  • Logan
  • Danny

But it's not a simple A > B > C > D. Each of them have good and bad match-ups. I would say the outcomes of their fights would be something like,

T'Challa vs Gorgon: T'Challa wins due to gear, Gorgon has the physicals and possibly skill advantage but can't really hurt him, meanwhile T'Challa can eventually decapitate him.

T'Challa vs Logan: Toss up. Logan can easily pierce the suit and kill T'Challa, but T'Challa can just as easily use his energy daggers to bypass Logan's adamantium and destroy his heart or brain. They're about equal in strength and speed, maybe a slight skill advantage to Logan. Maybe Logan would take it 51/100 times, but it's too close for me to pick a decisive winner.

T'Challa vs Danny: T'Challa already beat him when he was bloodlusted and could have killed him during the fight. Only difference is he'll suffer less damage this time (not to say that it's an easy fight, of course).

Gorgon vs Logan: Already happened multiple times, Gorgon stomps him again. Bad matchup for Logan.

Gorgon vs Danny: I'm not entirely sure about this one. Danny probably has enough raw power in his punches to KO Gorgon, but he's heavily outclassed in everything else. I think it's more like for Gorgon to take Danny out first.

Logan vs Danny: Danny can't put him down, has worse physicals in everything except speed, and is less skilled. He doesn't win this.

So to summarise,

  • Peter wins every fight due to his ridiculous stats, spider-sense and webbing.
  • T'Challa wins 2 comfortably due to his gear and then is 50/50 against Logan.
  • Gorgon wins 2 due to his stats and healing factor.
  • Logan is 50/50 against Panther but otherwise doesn't win any.
  • Danny doesn't win any.

Nice breakdown!

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Supermanwithatan01

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god_spawn

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#14 god_spawn  Moderator

It's either Spider-Man or Captain America who isn't here for some reason.

Uhhh? What? He couldn’t beat a tired Danny, has straight up lost to a tired Logan and has already been on the losing end on 2 other occasions. T’Challa already has better gear to counter his shield, and I’ll at least give him “equal stats and skill” based on commentary. If he’s not beating Logan, he’s certainly not beating Gorgon. And Parker is just too much of a powerhouse and his gear is an even bigger advantage. Civil War fight aside, Parker has every edge.

I don’t get how you can sit here and say Steve is debatably the best next to Parker when he’d lose to every single person here.

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Tzimiscelord

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Spiderman, wide versatility of powers, high stats for a street level, strong webbing...... and the spider sense.

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The_Hajduk

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@the_hajduk said:

It's either Spider-Man or Captain America who isn't here for some reason.

Uhhh? What? He couldn’t beat a tired Danny, has straight up lost to a tired Logan and has already been on the losing end on 2 other occasions. T’Challa already has better gear to counter his shield, and I’ll at least give him “equal stats and skill” based on commentary. If he’s not beating Logan, he’s certainly not beating Gorgon. And Parker is just too much of a powerhouse and his gear is an even bigger advantage. Civil War fight aside, Parker has every edge.

I don’t get how you can sit here and say Steve is debatably the best next to Parker when he’d lose to every single person here.

Captain America has the most impressive feats. He has fought everyone from Hulk to Iron Man and held his own with them all. He has PIS power and pretty much always wins. Even the fight with Logan on the plane that people say indicates Logan is more skilled, Captain America still technically won in the end.

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TakenStew22

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Either Wolverine, Black Panther or Spidey.

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god_spawn

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#18  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

If Parker isn’t packing any high tech gear, I could play Devil’s advocate and say Tomi could win every round.

Peter is going to win against everyone else. Webbing itself, while just having a vastly superior physical advantage coupled with spider sense is a hard counter to most of the people here. It’s how he beats Logan since he’s not KOing him. He can get past T’Challa the same way. Danny is a glass canon, and can set him up for a hard punch. I’ll get to Tomi in a second.

T’Challa has a good chance against Danny since he beat him already when he was bloodlusted. Him and Logan is generally a toss uo IMO. I think the ”fights” between them are a bit misconstrued. BP tossed him with Logan saying he was fast...kind of it. Their fight with Logan having lost his healing, he wasn't mentally their and pretty much a low showing for Logan since Batroc was dancing around him. Their classic fight was the most balanced but Logan did show up being superior. I’d argue Logan has the better skill showings, but not to a marginal degree. I’d say he can cut his suit as well and his healing can deal with T’Challa‘s out put but if he doesn’t finish fast, the anti-metal claws are a pretty bad counter, not an instance win. In regards to Tomi, given how I feel Logan has a good chance, Tomi being having obliterated Wolverine, I’d say he wins. With his speed, skill, telepathy and healing and his sword, he can cut the suit and eventually win.

Danny is the strongest striker here, but the least durable and I think that is where he kinda loses things. Parker again is just physically superior where it counts, webbing and Spidey sense is a clutch combo. T’Challa showed with his suit he can hold out and win. Danny and Logan is another good fight, and both are relatively even in skill. Logan showed he can win in a spar, and when it comes down to output and damage soak, Danny will hurt him and Logan can disembowel him. So with both being relatively even in skill and speed, both being capable of beating the other, I think Logan is more likely to tank a hit vs Danny will a claw strike. With Gorgon, Tomi already managed to hold out against him with a weapon he’s not used to, showing more of a h2h style fight, and hold back to save himself for Logan while Danny was using his iron fist. We don’t speak about what happens next but Bendis, who actually gave Danny a bunch of impressive showings, gave Tomi a solid outing there against Danny. Again, between healing, sword, telepathy, speed and skill, he’s more than capable of beating Danny. So with Tomi, he’s already had decent showings against all these guys except for T’Challa, who he has never fought and Logan, who he’s straight up beaten. He held back against Danny and was fighting evenly. He’s tanked hits from Parker, and Peter even called for help needing Carol and I believe it was Cho/Hulk, who came in and planted him. Tomi I think has underrated durability and healing, having tanked hits from Parker. Skaar used him as a bat and threw him into a ship or something that exploded and was fine. He’s tanked RPG’s, explosions, blows from Stonewall, blasts from Quake etc.

He’s regenerated his head being blown open. Multiple stabs from Logan etc.

I think what gives him the potential to beat Parker is his mind reading to counter spider -sense given morals off, skill is already up there, and speed bursts. His bullet deflecting feats and his ability to just mow down enemies in the blink of an eye. He’s already blitzed hand ninjas, cut off Yo-Yo’s hands, blitz Shang-Chi armed with Stark tech when he got serious and already fight with Peter. I think he can cut through webbing, at least tank hits, and with his skill and speed, I think he can get a rebound in and slice Parker open.

I see the potential for Parker winning every match, but I think Gorgon has a fair shot as well. And if anyone can beat Parker, it’s him.

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god_spawn

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#19 god_spawn  Moderator

@the_hajduk: By having Giant Man attack and punt him out of an airplane where Logan was still fine. And he’s taken on Hulk and Iron Man? So have Logan and Parker. He always wins? He’s been by Logan and pinned down by Panther already. You know how these forums work, Nick. You’re better than this.

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The_Hajduk

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#20  Edited By The_Hajduk

@god_spawn said:

@the_hajduk: By having Giant Man attack and punt him out of an airplane where Logan was still fine. And he’s taken on Hulk and Iron Man? So have Logan and Parker. He always wins? He’s been by Logan and pinned down by Panther already. You know how these forums work, Nick. You’re better than this.

It's just my opinion man. I think Captain America would run through any of these chumps if he had to. Steve Rogers is known to be the greatest hero and warrior on Earth.

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kasya_carey

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No captain America, Moon Knight or Dead Pool?

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laflux

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I miss these street level battles.

I'll tend to what @god_spawn said. Peter under Spencer's run is back to basics, he doesn't have his fancy gear and is also not using Way of the Spider anymore. I don't remember Tomi taking a punch from Peter when they fought (its probably my memory), but as noted he's taken alot of damage and come back from it. I think that out of all the Spiders, its 2099 who has the best chance of beating Tomi as he has option that can tax Tomi's healing factor more (Explosives, Claws, Teeth, Poison) a suit that is resistant to slashing damage and is just generally more brutal and willing to kill.

I'm not sure Danny is so much of a Glass Cannon though. He has durability feats that surpass peak human IMO and has Chi Healing to boot. In a 1 on 1 battle its less important because the sole focus is on him but in a Melee it can give him time to heal quickly and get back in the fight.

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ProfessorRespect

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#23  Edited By ProfessorRespect

Spider-Man is basically the borderline street tier: anymore stronger than him (like Venom, for instance) isn't street anymore. He's kinda got a big edge in terms of stats (apart from Logan in durability but tbf that's a road no one would seriously argue against) and he's got experience on everyone here to boot.

Panther is the underrated one here. Not only does he have a suit that gives him amazing durability, he's probably got the best usage when it comes to prepping up for opponents, and he's smart enough to abuse his gear to win fights. He probably beats Gorgon (who's a bit of a jobber alas) and Logan, tries his best with Peter but ultimately gets beaten. Iron Fist is debateable if we use meme feats but by consistency, Danny would probably get beat.

Logan has the most experience and is by far the most lethal here: he can basically one shot anyone if he gets a good shot in and his regen and tank status means he can go for plans that other characters simply can't: he can afford to go in aggressive from the start and can abuse the fact that he can recover from basically anything while his foe can't. Protracted battles would be a go to option and kill shots that would otherwise be the end for everyone else here wouldn't be the end for Logan. The guy has literally laughed off Spider-Man punching him full force in the face.

However, he's already been dealt with by Spider-Man using webs rather easily, Gorgon is not a good matchup by their history. Logan however is also prepared to fight.....well, dirty. That's kinda understated but even some of the top street tiers can get floored by a strike in certain areas. It's a small factor but a important one if it gets down to it.

Gorgon flip flops but if we take him at his best, he'd slap up Logan, probably beat Danny, but ultimately fall short to Spider-Man and Panther due to gear and stat indifference, despite his healing factor and impressive speed. Gorgon is a great counter to Logan's tank status and Danny just doesn't have the durability to keep up if Gorgon gets the advantage over him.

Iron Fist.....eh, all of these are rough matches for him. Danny certainly has the power but Logan can tank him enough to get a good shot in, Spider-Man just isn't gonna be a win, Gorgon as stated has the speed and potency to slice him up, and Panther with the suit and gear can deal with his Chi powers enough so to get the shots required in. I can't see him take a match for a majority unless we add in meme feats.

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god_spawn

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#24  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

@laflux: I think in terms of Danny being a glass cannon, it’s more in regards that his durability is probably the weakest here. He’s definitely more than a normal human, but comparatively speaking, he’s the worst one off due to either healing factors, or the vibranium suit, and I think Parker just has naturally higher durability.

Not disagreeing but I guess just clarifying my statement a bit.

Edit: Tomi took a hit from Peter when it was Norman’s Dark Avengers v2 and Gorgon was dressed as Wolverine.

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god_spawn

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#25 god_spawn  Moderator

@the_hajduk: Yet he’s been on the losing end of all of these guys more so than vice versa. Gotcha.

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Supermanwithatan01

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If Parker isn’t packing any high tech gear, I could play Devil’s advocate and say Tomi could win every round.

Peter is going to win against everyone else. Webbing itself, while just having a vastly superior physical advantage coupled with spider sense is a hard counter to most of the people here. It’s how he beats Logan since he’s not KOing him. He can get past T’Challa the same way. Danny is a glass canon, and can set him up for a hard punch. I’ll get to Tomi in a second.

T’Challa has a good chance against Danny since he beat him already when he was bloodlusted. Him and Logan is generally a toss uo IMO. I think the ”fights” between them are a bit misconstrued. BP tossed him with Logan saying he was fast...kind of it. Their fight with Logan having lost his healing, he wasn't mentally their and pretty much a low showing for Logan since Batroc was dancing around him. Their classic fight was the most balanced but Logan did show up being superior. I’d argue Logan has the better skill showings, but not to a marginal degree. I’d say he can cut his suit as well and his healing can deal with T’Challa‘s out put but if he doesn’t finish fast, the anti-metal claws are a pretty bad counter, not an instance win. In regards to Tomi, given how I feel Logan has a good chance, Tomi being having obliterated Wolverine, I’d say he wins. With his speed, skill, telepathy and healing and his sword, he can cut the suit and eventually win.

Danny is the strongest striker here, but the least durable and I think that is where he kinda loses things. Parker again is just physically superior where it counts, webbing and Spidey sense is a clutch combo. T’Challa showed with his suit he can hold out and win. Danny and Logan is another good fight, and both are relatively even in skill. Logan showed he can win in a spar, and when it comes down to output and damage soak, Danny will hurt him and Logan can disembowel him. So with both being relatively even in skill and speed, both being capable of beating the other, I think Logan is more likely to tank a hit vs Danny will a claw strike. With Gorgon, Tomi already managed to hold out against him with a weapon he’s not used to, showing more of a h2h style fight, and hold back to save himself for Logan while Danny was using his iron fist. We don’t speak about what happens next but Bendis, who actually gave Danny a bunch of impressive showings, gave Tomi a solid outing there against Danny. Again, between healing, sword, telepathy, speed and skill, he’s more than capable of beating Danny.

So with Tomi, he’s already had decent showings against all these guys except for T’Challa, who he has never fought and Logan, who he’s straight up beaten. He held back against Danny and was fighting evenly. He’s tanked hits from Parker, and Peter even called for help needing Carol and I believe it was Cho/Hulk, who came in and planted him. Tomi I think has underrated durability and healing, having tanked hits from Parker. Skaar used him as a bat and threw him into a ship or something that exploded and was fine. He’s tanked RPG’s, explosions, blows from Stonewall, blasts from Quake and was still conscious from his blasts from Carol IIRC.

He’s regenerated his head being blown open. Multiple stabs from Logan etc.

I think what gives him the potential to beat Parker is his mind reading to counter spider -sense given morals off, skill is already up there, and speed bursts. His bullet deflecting feats and his ability to just mow down enemies in the blink of an eye. He’s already blitzed hand ninjas, cut off Yo-Yo’s hands, blitz Shang-Chi armed with Stark tech when he got serious and already fight with Peter. I think he can cut through webbing, at least tank hits, and with his skill and speed, I think he can get a rebound in and slice Parker open.

I see the potential for Parker winning every match, but I think Gorgon has a fair shot as well. And if anyone can beat Parker, it’s him.

Excellent breakdown! Sounds like Peter and Tomi could go either way in your opinion, but they take everyone else out relatively handily In 1v1s?

I know Tomis probably the “BMF” of the group but we do rarely get to see Pete cut loose and if/when he does he could be scarier than the Gorgon (imo)

Im refraining from having an opinion but I really see Tomi and Pete as the alphas of the street tier and a coin toss if ever there was one.

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laflux

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@god_spawn: No that makes perfect sense. That his Damage soak is less than the others that is true.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@laflux said:

I miss these street level battles.

I'll tend to what @god_spawn said. Peter under Spencer's run is back to basics, he doesn't have his fancy gear and is also not using Way of the Spider anymore. I don't remember Tomi taking a punch from Peter when they fought (its probably my memory), but as noted he's taken alot of damage and come back from it. I think that out of all the Spiders, its 2099 who has the best chance of beating Tomi as he has option that can tax Tomi's healing factor more (Explosives, Claws, Teeth, Poison) a suit that is resistant to slashing damage and is just generally more brutal and willing to kill.

I'm not sure Danny is so much of a Glass Cannon though. He has durability feats that surpass peak human IMO and has Chi Healing to boot. In a 1 on 1 battle its less important because the sole focus is on him but in a Melee it can give him time to heal quickly and get back in the fight.

I’ve missed you laflux!!!

Few notes:

  • I hate that they did away with the Way of the Spider, I thought that was a cool concept
  • Some of his gear was actually cool and I like Peter that was willing to adapt, and learn from SpOcks run
  • Has Pete done anything impressive lately without those things?

Few questions:

  • Do you think Spider-Man 2099 > Spider-Man 616?
  • Do you think Peter, being without any morals here, could defeat everyone (including Tomi) for the majority?

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Supermanwithatan01

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@professorrespect said:

Spider-Man is basically the borderline street tier: anymore stronger than him (like Venom, for instance) isn't street anymore. He's kinda got a big edge in terms of stats (apart from Logan in durability but tbf that's a road no one would seriously argue against) and he's got experience on everyone here to boot.

Panther is the underrated one here. Not only does he have a suit that gives him amazing durability, he's probably got the best usage when it comes to prepping up for opponents, and he's smart enough to abuse his gear to win fights. He probably beats Gorgon (who's a bit of a jobber alas) and Logan, tries his best with Peter but ultimately gets beaten. Iron Fist is debateable if we use meme feats but by consistency, Danny would probably get beat.

Logan has the most experience and is by far the most lethal here: he can basically one shot anyone if he gets a good shot in and his regen and tank status means he can go for plans that other characters simply can't: he can afford to go in aggressive from the start and can abuse the fact that he can recover from basically anything while his foe can't. Protracted battles would be a go to option and kill shots that would otherwise be the end for everyone else here wouldn't be the end for Logan. The guy has literally laughed off Spider-Man punching him full force in the face.

However, he's already been dealt with by Spider-Man using webs rather easily, Gorgon is not a good matchup by their history. Logan however is also prepared to fight.....well, dirty. That's kinda understated but even some of the top street tiers can get floored by a strike in certain areas. It's a small factor but a important one if it gets down to it.

Gorgon flip flops but if we take him at his best, he'd slap up Logan, probably beat Danny, but ultimately fall short to Spider-Man and Panther due to gear and stat indifference, despite his healing factor and impressive speed. Gorgon is a great counter to Logan's tank status and Danny just doesn't have the durability to keep up if Gorgon gets the advantage over him.

Iron Fist.....eh, all of these are rough matches for him. Danny certainly has the power but Logan can tank him enough to get a good shot in, Spider-Man just isn't gonna be a win, Gorgon as stated has the speed and potency to slice him up, and Panther with the suit and gear can deal with his Chi powers enough so to get the shots required in. I can't see him take a match for a majority unless we add in meme feats.

Nice post. Everyone seems to be pretty torn between Gorgon or Spider-Man but you brought some much needed respect for King T’Challa.

Any particular reason you back Pete over T’Challa and Tomi? maybe more so, how do you see those fights going down?

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@supermanwithatan01: Thanks man :)

Yea I think Superior Spider-Man was a stain on what I would say was a solid run for Dan Slott.

As for Spencer, I can't of anything off the top of my head which struck me as wow. He did flip over a giant robot so hard it smashed into pieces, and he had a nice healing factor feat where he was unrecognizable from burns and was completely fine within a couple of days. Tbh I haven't really followed Spencer, it seems like a return to basics hence the name, but there doesn't seem to be any of the emotion pay off to this and the tropes of Peter being broke, in school or in internship of some kind has been done ad-nauseum in films and video games recently I just find it boring.

I think Spider-Man 2099 with the Horizon Suit is better than Peter currently yes. I think Spider-Man 2099 with his classic suit is more debatable.

Peter could beat everyone here 1-1 but I see Tomi as the main threat, and I'm not sure he could do it for a majority.

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FirstManOfsteeI

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#31  Edited By FirstManOfsteeI

@laflux: Kaine Parker Scarlet Spider he killed Solus who killed Uni-force/power Spider-Man aka Captain universe spider-man, regeneration, multiple transformations, stingers, spider-sense bypass, took on 3 spiders and jackal at the same time, in his prime before spider island he fought the most of spider-man rouges gallery destroying them, dropped a building on rhino literally, can burn people with mark of Kaine, his suit can go invisible, resurrected multiple times, killed wolverine temporarily of course. He’s easily the strongest street tier. Although I consider spiders fake street tiers.

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god_spawn

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#32 god_spawn  Moderator

@supermanwithatan01: @supermanwithatan01: Yeah, it’s kind of a hard sell to boast any street over Peter. Not only is he just a physical powerhouse by comparison to most, but he’s significantly faster than most, he’s arguably the most acrobatic character in Marvel. Spidey sense just makes it that much worse in terms of being able to get him. He’s insanely smart. And webbing itself is just so hard to counter. That gives him a massive environmental advantage in most settings, it’s a quick way to deal with opponents, it’s hard to get around. Just as a whole, Peter is incredibly difficult to deal with.

People used to only get by on him due to being just fast enough and coupled with skill, it took advantage of Peter’s lack of fighting skill. It’s why we’ve seen people like Dardevil, Taskmaster, Wolverine, Cap, Kraven etc do as well as they have. They’re strong and fast in their own right, but a skill edge and Peter’s own good nature has always been that saving grace.

So you throw that out the window, and how do you beat him as a street? Outside of someone like Luke Cage, who I classify as a street level just due to how low on the brick totem he is with a lack of any other major powers, no one is stronger. Logan might be the next best bet just because he can hang in there more than most others, but he’d lose. Tomi to me just seems like he has all the abilities necessary to provide a counter to Parker. He’s not as strong, fine. But his sword is gonna do some damage. His skill level is through the roof. His speed bursts in skill are insane. Blitzing Logan. Blitzing Shang-Chi. Counter blitzing Yo-Yo. Hell, he was on the way of beating the Secret Warriors by himself. His low showing is getting beat on by Shang before wrecking him, and getting KO’d by Daredevil while he was holding back against Danny, and in the same story took a blow from Peter and Skaar. And taking a bunch of bullets to the head, only for him to heal. Those aren’t really horrible. So you take that skill, speed, and weaponry, he can cut through webs. He deflects bullets and beheads rooms of people before they realize it, clearly he can swing that sword fast enough to slice webbing. If Logan and Sabretooth can do it, Tomi sure can. You combine that with a durable opponent that can also read minds to counter spider-sense or get an idea of something, I’d say you have the best bet at beating Parker. I 100% do believe Parker is probably the king, and is capable of beating Tomi. But Tomi has every tool necessary to counter EVERYTHING Peter has. And that itself is hard to do.

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@supermanwithatan01: Peter's stat difference and all around nature means that he can kinda overpower Panther and stay away from his range. Gorgon has the speed to keep up, but I think the usage of webs is the key difference that beats him there.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@laflux said:

@supermanwithatan01: Thanks man :)

Yea I think Superior Spider-Man was a stain on what I would say was a solid run for Dan Slott.

  • I sort of like Superior Octopus. I thought it was a really interesting concept but they ended up sending Otto back to his bowl cut, short, older, grandpa bod! Haha

As for Spencer, I can't of anything off the top of my head which struck me as wow. He did flip over a giant robot so hard it smashed into pieces, and he had a nice healing factor feat where he was unrecognizable from burns and was completely fine within a couple of days. Tbh I haven't really followed Spencer, it seems like a return to basics hence the name, but there doesn't seem to be any of the emotion pay off to this and the tropes of Peter being broke, in school or in internship of some kind has been done ad-nauseum in films and video games recently I just find it boring.

  • Ah I agree. Not To veer off topic but I’ve heard the PS4/5 Spider-Man game is amazing and really captures Pete. I’m gonna check it out when I get my PS5.

I think Spider-Man 2099 with the Horizon Suit is better than Peter currently yes. I think Spider-Man 2099 with his classic suit is more debatable.

  • What about Pete with his hi-tech suit from the Amazing Spider-Man run?
  • Does he still have that gear and just doesn’t use it or what?

Peter could beat everyone here 1-1 but I see Tomi as the main threat, and I'm not sure he could do it for a majority.

  • So you think they’d be a coin flip, or do you think maybe Tomi could/would squeeze out the majority?
  • I saw someone a few years ago call it at something like, “if they fought 100 times, they’d each get 50. They’re just that close and each have advantages that could give them a win in any given fight”

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Supermanwithatan01

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@supermanwithatan01: Peter's stat difference and all around nature means that he can kinda overpower Panther and stay away from his range. Gorgon has the speed to keep up, but I think the usage of webs is the key difference that beats him there.

That was my feeling in a thread a few years ago but the argument against me was that Tomi’s speed + grasscutter would negate any type of web incapacitation. Of course, that thread Peter was in-character and not a without morals like this thread.

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@laflux: Kaine Parker Scarlet Spider he killed Solus who killed Uni-force/power Spider-Man aka Captain universe spider-man, regeneration, multiple transformations,, stingers, spider-sense bypass, took on 3 spiders and jackal at the same time, in his prime before spider island he fought the most of spider-man rouges gallery destroying them, dropped, a building on rhino literally , can burn people with mark of Kaine, his suit can go invisible, resurrected multiple times, killed wolverine temporarily of course. He’s easily the strongest street tier. Although I consider spiders fake street tiers.

I consider Classic Kaine to be Mid-Tier. Although Tbh Peter does have some one sided victories over Rhino as well.

Kaine Parker following his resurrection is Mid to High Tier in his transformed state and that's the state in which he killed Solus. He's also killed Shantra in that state as well, another inheritor.

Kaine with his Other Powers but without Transforming is still in the range of Peter. He's stronger and has stingers, but he's not as evasive nor is he as adaptable as a fighter. He also lacks a Spider-Sense. He did kill Wolverine but Wolverine was told to take a dive so they could find out why Kaine attacked the Mansion. Wolverine was holding back and still nearly swiped Kaine's head off when they fought. Peter in that situation would have likely tried to incap him with webbing and be done with it. If you look at their fights with other characters they overlap provided Kaine doesn't transform into a Werespider. Kaine was beating on SpOck. Spider-Man stomped SpOck when he was still recovering from being drained by Morlun. Both have struggled with but in the end succinctly beaten Kraven. Kaine was killed by the Lobo's twins. The Lobo's also gave Peter alot of trouble. Both have struggled against a Vulked out Flash Venom.

I mean if Kaine is better than Peter. I don't believe it is by a whole tier. And I understand the temptation for putting Peter in Mid Tier, but Mid Tier holds guys like She Hulk, Thing and Iron Man, who Peter really shouldn't be beating for anywhere close to a majority. Granted Peter has some Mid-Tier rogues in his gallery, but Peter tends to have a knowledge of their powers, they are stupid (Ala Sandman or Rhino), he is lucky, they job, Peter has a high end showing, or some combination of these factors.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@supermanwithatan01: @supermanwithatan01: Yeah, it’s kind of a hard sell to boast any street over Peter. Not only is he just a physical powerhouse by comparison to most, but he’s significantly faster than most, he’s arguably the most acrobatic character in Marvel. Spidey sense just makes it that much worse in terms of being able to get him. He’s insanely smart. And webbing itself is just so hard to counter. That gives him a massive environmental advantage in most settings, it’s a quick way to deal with opponents, it’s hard to get around. Just as a whole, Peter is incredibly difficult to deal with.

People used to only get by on him due to being just fast enough and coupled with skill, it took advantage of Peter’s lack of fighting skill. It’s why we’ve seen people like Dardevil, Taskmaster, Wolverine, Cap, Kraven etc do as well as they have. They’re strong and fast in their own right, but a skill edge and Peter’s own good nature has always been that saving grace.

So you throw that out the window, and how do you beat him as a street? Outside of someone like Luke Cage, who I classify as a street level just due to how low on the brick totem he is with a lack of any other major powers, no one is stronger. Logan might be the next best bet just because he can hang in there more than most others, but he’d lose. Tomi to me just seems like he has all the abilities necessary to provide a counter to Parker. He’s not as strong, fine. But his sword is gonna do some damage. His skill level is through the roof. His speed bursts in skill are insane. Blitzing Logan. Blitzing Shang-Chi. Counter blitzing Yo-Yo. Hell, he was on the way of beating the Secret Warriors by himself. His low showing is getting beat on by Shang before wrecking him, and getting KO’d by Daredevil while he was holding back against Danny, and in the same story took a blow from Peter and Skaar. And taking a bunch of bullets to the head, only for him to heal. Those aren’t really horrible. So you take that skill, speed, and weaponry, he can cut through webs. He deflects bullets and beheads rooms of people before they realize it, clearly he can swing that sword fast enough to slice webbing. If Logan and Sabretooth can do it, Tomi sure can. You combine that with a durable opponent that can also read minds to counter spider-sense or get an idea of something, I’d say you have the best bet at beating Parker. I 100% do believe Parker is probably the king, and is capable of beating Tomi. But Tomi has every tool necessary to counter EVERYTHING Peter has. And that itself is hard to do.

That’s an awesome breakdown and pretty much how I feel. Peter also has different gear that makes a lot of fights simply unfair, and a lot of his rogue gallery, which is arguably the best in comics outside of maybe Batman, are [well] above street.

- Rhino

- Electro

- Venom/Carnage

- Doc Ock

- Sandman

- Lizard

etc. These guys are legit powerhouses in their own right (I actually feel pretty strongly about Wolverines villains too as higher than street) but Peter can take them on and isn’t completely outclassed in most cases; lol except maybe Carnage.

In most cases you find that Pete’s wit plays a core role in his abilities as well. He’s one of the characters that re-defines my understanding of a skilled fighter. He’s got the ultimate “street smarts”, great battle-intuition, and the spide—sense makes him just a nasty matchup nightmare for pretty much anyone (in his tier). Obviously he’s no where near Tomi in hand to hand, but I really liked the idea of the Way of the Spider and incorporating his spider sense with that. Between losing that and his Amazing Spider-Man gear in sort of disappointed. Makes it more fair in our world of battles with other street tiers, I suppose, but Pete seems like the baseline now. Other Spider characters like Kaine (without a spider sense though) or Ben or Miles all got Peters abilities and then something extra thats unique to them, which I sort of wish Pete had in exclusivity. Just my 2 cents

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Supermanwithatan01

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@laflux: Kaine with the Other powers that had that extra gear when he could go “Ascended” and do all his crazy uber feats was pretty awesome. He was my favorite version but now I fear they took the Other abilities away and they’re just lost in what to do with him.

He just comes off as a bruiting, slightly stronger, slightly faster version of Pete but theres no extra “oomth” to his character. I liked that he could go mid tier if he lost his cool, I liked how that sort of made up for not having a spider sense.

He feels like a pissy, handicapped Pete with no spider sense and though less-restraint made him pretty badass, it’s pretty much all he has going for him.

/endcomplaining

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Spider-Man is basically the borderline street tier: anymore stronger than him (like Venom, for instance) isn't street anymore. He's kinda got a big edge in terms of stats (apart from Logan in durability but tbf that's a road no one would seriously argue against) and he's got experience on everyone here to boot.

Panther is the underrated one here. Not only does he have a suit that gives him amazing durability, he's probably got the best usage when it comes to prepping up for opponents, and he's smart enough to abuse his gear to win fights. He probably beats Gorgon (who's a bit of a jobber alas) and Logan, tries his best with Peter but ultimately gets beaten. Iron Fist is debateable if we use meme feats but by consistency, Danny would probably get beat.

Logan has the most experience and is by far the most lethal here: he can basically one shot anyone if he gets a good shot in and his regen and tank status means he can go for plans that other characters simply can't: he can afford to go in aggressive from the start and can abuse the fact that he can recover from basically anything while his foe can't. Protracted battles would be a go to option and kill shots that would otherwise be the end for everyone else here wouldn't be the end for Logan. The guy has literally laughed off Spider-Man punching him full force in the face.

However, he's already been dealt with by Spider-Man using webs rather easily, Gorgon is not a good matchup by their history. Logan however is also prepared to fight.....well, dirty. That's kinda understated but even some of the top street tiers can get floored by a strike in certain areas. It's a small factor but a important one if it gets down to it.

Gorgon flip flops but if we take him at his best, he'd slap up Logan, probably beat Danny, but ultimately fall short to Spider-Man and Panther due to gear and stat indifference, despite his healing factor and impressive speed. Gorgon is a great counter to Logan's tank status and Danny just doesn't have the durability to keep up if Gorgon gets the advantage over him.

Iron Fist.....eh, all of these are rough matches for him. Danny certainly has the power but Logan can tank him enough to get a good shot in, Spider-Man just isn't gonna be a win, Gorgon as stated has the speed and potency to slice him up, and Panther with the suit and gear can deal with his Chi powers enough so to get the shots required in. I can't see him take a match for a majority unless we add in meme feats.

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WhimsicalFlare

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Spiderman or Black Panther

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jashro44

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It's just my opinion man. I think Captain America would run through any of these chumps if he had to. Steve Rogers is known to be the greatest hero and warrior on Earth.

Your opinion is wrong.

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@jashro44 said:
@the_hajduk said:

It's just my opinion man. I think Captain America would run through any of these chumps if he had to. Steve Rogers is known to be the greatest hero and warrior on Earth.

Your opinion is wrong.

Who do you consider second to Spidey? For me it's probably Iron Fist or maybe Wolverine.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44 said:
@the_hajduk said:

It's just my opinion man. I think Captain America would run through any of these chumps if he had to. Steve Rogers is known to be the greatest hero and warrior on Earth.

Your opinion is wrong.

Who do you consider second to Spidey? For me it's probably Iron Fist or maybe Wolverine.

I’m curious too @jashro44, if both Tomi and Peter are pissed/morals off who wins between those 2?

Is there a particular pecking order you think this comes down to?

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god_spawn

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#45  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

@jashro44 said:
@the_hajduk said:

It's just my opinion man. I think Captain America would run through any of these chumps if he had to. Steve Rogers is known to be the greatest hero and warrior on Earth.

Your opinion is wrong.

Ouch.

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Who do you consider second to Spidey? For me it's probably Iron Fist or maybe Wolverine.

If Gorgon weren't a jobber I would go with him. That aside I honestly would give it to black panther out of the people present, than iron fist, wolverine.

I’m curious too @jashro44, if both Tomi and Peter are pissed/morals off who wins between those 2?

Is there a particular pecking order you think this comes down to?

I already went over this in the gorgon vs spider-man thread.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44 said:
@noobmaster2001 said:

Who do you consider second to Spidey? For me it's probably Iron Fist or maybe Wolverine.

If Gorgon weren't a jobber I would go with him. That aside I honestly would give it to black panther out of the people present, than iron fist, wolverine.

@supermanwithatan01 said:

I’m curious too @jashro44, if both Tomi and Peter are pissed/morals off who wins between those 2?

Is there a particular pecking order you think this comes down to?

I already went over this in the gorgon vs spider-man thread.

Meh my bad. I figured I’d ask since I didn’t remember if that thread was morals off or not.

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Supermanwithatan01

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Bump. I’m admittedly shocked that I’m not seeing more votes for Danny as the most skilled/powerful. Good stuff in this thread though.

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Spidey one-shots if this is a serious fight

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I don't consider Spider-Man/Iron Fist street level

They are more like a low powerhouses