Who in Marvel can beat Batman at pure skill?

Title says all.

Stats equalized. No gear. Pure h2h combat in a generic dojo setting.

Both morals off.

Iron Fist, Black Panther (although it is debatable), Taskmaster and Wolverine.

Why Logan and Panther?

Taskmaster would def.

Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Wolverine.

Logan, Danny and Taskmaster

Why Logan?

Gamora, Taskmaster, Iron Fist and Shang Chi. A case can be made for Daredevil and Black Panther as well.

Iron Fist, Taskmaster

Taskmaster, not sold on Danny or T'challa doing it.

Taskmaster, Iron Fist, Mr. X if you don't eliminate abilities. I'd also say Ogun but his proficiency is with a blade. Logan and T'Challa are very arguable if you eliminate powers and stat differential.

It's a very short list.

@causeimbatman:

Why Logan and Panther?

A case could be made for Wolverine being the most skilled fighter in the MU. He's beaten Iron Fist, Captain America, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Sabertooth etc. Has mastered every fighting style (Some alien ones as well) and is master at using pressure points/nerve strikes. As i said, the skill difference between him and T'Challa is debatable, as a case could be made for either beating the other.

Danny Rand, Taskmaster, possibly Shang Chi, Gamora, moondragon and Stick.

Stick, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Doc. Doom, Captain America

@all-father:

He's beaten Iron Fist, Captain America, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Sabertooth etc.

Wasn’t the Danny one a sparring match? AKA holding back a bit? Anyway, Batman stalemated Karate Kid, even gaining an upperhand in some parts. He was at a disadvantage as well, since he was in zero gravity - something he isn’t used to - while KK was using martial arts that work well in zero gravity. Not a case of PIS either since KK wasn’t using the special martial arts that make him a mid tier.

Has mastered every fighting style (Some alien ones as well)

Batman mastered every fighting style, some Kryptonian ones and mystical martial arts, He also taught League Of Assassin Ninjas(which have mastered every martial art so a ton of knowledge) techniques they didn’t know about. Plus he normally curbstomps League Of Assassin Ninjas who mastered every martial art.

Pressure Points/Nerve strikes, Batman stopped Green arrow from moving his arm with a nerve pinch and managed to erase Lois’ short term memory with nerve strikes.

Stick could do it in theory. But he lacks legit feats of skill to prove it. Most of his showings of pure skills are either weird or hard to quantify. I could see Mister X (not without his powers tho, because he's not that impressive without them to me) and Iron Fist doing it and maybe T'Challa and Logan (and like Morpheus said, Ogun could do it potentially, although mostly he fights like a swordsman so it is questionable). Tony Masters can definitely do it. He is overall a better Martial Artist than Bruce. Gamora and Shang-Chi don't impress me.

Taskmaster could definitely do it.

@causeimbatman: If we are going by knowledge, he is about equal to Bruce, if not better. Knowing every fighting style on Earth and even some alien ones. He has beaten guys like Cap, Silver Samurai, Shang Chi and even outskilled Danny on an occasion or two.

@causeimbatman:

Wasn’t the Danny one a sparring match? AKA holding back a bit?

Yes it was, still a showing of high skill tho. He's beaten Shang Chi (who is Iron Fists near equal) twice, Captain America and Silver Samurai (Arguably Marvels most skilled swordsman)

Plus he normally curbstomps League Of Assassin Ninjas who mastered every martial art.

Logan normally defeats highly trained Ninjas and Martial Artist as well.

Batman stopped Green arrow from moving his arm with a nerve pinch

Wolverine hit Captain America with a nerve strike that made him require medical attention.

Not sure why people think Black Panther is as skilled as PC Batman.

No one. It's Batman.

@brucerogers: Batman mastered(doesn’t just “know”) every fighting style, Kryptonian martial arts and mystical martial arts. I’d say Batman is better.

Batman has stalemated Karate Kid, gaining an upper hand in some parts. More impressive because he was fighting in zero gravity, something he isn’t used to, while KK used martial arts that work well in zero gravity. Not a case of PIS since KK wasn’t using the martial arts that make him a mid tier

MCU Cap.

cause he is

@all-father: TBH I think Karate Kid showing is better than those, as KK is probs more skilled than the people you mentioned. He is skilled enough to utilize some special martial arts that make him a decent mid tier, even mastered every martial art up to the 30st century.

How highly trained? To the point they mastered every martial art?

I can concede pressure points.

... Ok?

This guy gets it.

Nightcrawler. Alex Mercer.

Maybe Iron fist but besides him no one.

@causeimbatman:

TBH I think Karate Kid showing is better than those, as KK is probs more skilled than the people you mentioned. He is skilled enough to utilize some special martial arts that make him a decent mid tier, even mastered every martial art up to the 30st century.

Well, Danny was trained in Martial arts that are only in The Book of the Iron Fist. Was also trained by Lei Kung who in turn was training fighters for over 1,000 years. So I'd say besting Danny (even tho in a sparring match) is arguably more impressive.

How highly trained? To the point they mastered every martial art?

Not every Martial arts , but still highly skilled.

Based on the skill feats I've seen and the Panther comics I've read god knows how many years ago, there isn't much of a gap in skill between the two, the only thing that is concerning is how much of a role BP's stats play a factor.

@causeimbatman: Batman mastered(doesn’t just “know”) every fighting style, Kryptonian martial arts and mystical martial arts. I’d say Batman is better.

Well Logan has mastered them too. I was just playing a little loose with words when I said 'knows'. The same goes for the alien ones like the ones from Shi'ar.

Batman has stalemated Karate Kid, gaining an upper hand in some parts. More impressive because he was fighting in zero gravity, something he isn’t used to, while KK used martial arts that work well in zero gravity. Not a case of PIS since KK wasn’t using the martial arts that make him a mid tier

But Val wasn't really using all his skill right?. Regardless, if you want to an example of Logan beating someone who knew all fighting styles, he did beat the Angel of Death.

@all-father: Danny was just trained in them. Karate Kid mastered them, all hand to hand combat styles up to the 30th century. Mastering>Getting trained in. Even if we say Danny is more skilled than KK, the gap is marginal, Batman’s showing would still be more impressive due to his being a strait up fight rather than a sparring match.

Then I’d say Batman’s showing against those ninjas is more impressive by a decent chunk.

@brucerogers: Batman did Master alien martial arts such as Kryptonian ones. Mystical martial arts should make him better in Knowledge.

Val was using his skill, just not martial arts that make him a mid tier. And Batman was gaining an upper hand. I’d say Val is more skilled than the angel of death. He’s skilled enough to utilize martial arts that make him a mid tier and mastered every hand to hand combat style(not just martial arts) up to the 30th century(so more styles and martial arts).

If we're getting technical, most MCU street-levelers. Because the film/show choreographers actually know what proper application of leverage, momentum, etc. looks like. Unlike comic book writers and artists, lol.

No, I don't think BP can not do it. I argued with a BP fan once. Don't know about Iron Firs so can not say. But yes Taskmaster should be able to win.

Iron Fist, Captain America, Daredevil, Wolverine and probably some more.

@causeimbatman: Batman did Master alien martial arts such as Kryptonian ones. Mystical martial arts should make him better in Knowledge.

What Mystical arts has he learned?. Not that Logan himself hasn't learned them. Look at Manifest Destiny, where he could shatter the Rock of the Buddha Karnak style ie, by locating a weak spot and striking it, after his training from Master Po. ROB was referred to as Ben Grimm with martial arts by Logan. I'd say that's an exaggeration, but not a lot of people can beat up Logan the way he did.

He even learned to resist soul based attacks, for what it's worth.

Val was using his skill, just not martial arts that make him a mid tier. And Batman was gaining an upper hand. I’d say Val is more skilled than the angel of death. He’s skilled enough to utilize martial arts that make him a mid tier and mastered every hand to hand combat style(not just martial arts) up to the 30th century(so more styles and martial arts).

But the fact that he could not really utilise all his MA knowledge at that point does not prove that Batman beat someone who mastered all fighting styles there is.

While the feat is impressive, it shows that Batman can fight a Karate Kid with restricted abilities.

@brucerogers: Dunno, it wasn’t stated. How does locating a weak spot in MOB mean he mastered mystical martial arts?

Resisting soul attacks has something to do with mystical martial arts?

That makes zero sense. Just because Val wasn’t using MAs(which are particulars btw. The vast majority of the martial arts he mastered weren’t those specific MAs) that allow him to oneshot Bruce doesn’t make the showing any less impressive. Karate Kid still had that much skill, him not using some rare/specific ones doesn’t change his lvl of skill.

@causeimbatman:

Karate Kid mastered them, all hand to hand combat styles up to the 30th century

Val didn't train and master fighting styles that are only taught to the Iron Fist himself.

Batman’s showing would still be more impressive due to his being a strait up fight rather than a sparring match.

Fair enough

Then I’d say Batman’s showing against those ninjas is more impressive by a decent chunk

Not by that much of a margin. League of Assassins ninjas are considered fodder to any high - mid tier street leveler.

@causeimbatman:

Dunno, it wasn’t stated. How does locating a weak spot in MOB mean he mastered mystical martial arts?

Because Logan does not have weakness detection as an innate power and the fact that he could destroy a powerful being made out of rocks with a karate chop, suggests the mystical nature behind it. It wasn't elaborated upon much as to how that worked, but it was just an advanced form of flaw detection via skill. His teacher, Master Po, shattered a huge rock by tapping it with his stick using the same method.

Though this ultimately comes down to how you define mystical martial arts.

Resisting soul attacks has something to do with mystical martial arts?

Again, what is your definition of mystical martial arts?

That makes zero sense. Just because Val wasn’t using MAs(which are particulars btw. The vast majority of the martial arts he mastered weren’t those specific MAs) that allow him to oneshot Bruce doesn’t make the showing any less impressive. Karate Kid still had that much skill, him not using some rare/specific ones doesn’t change his lvl of skill.

Where did I comment on the impressiveness of the feat?. All I said was that he beat a Karate Kid who (by your own admission) wasn't using everything he knew. How is that wrong?

@brucerogers: My defintion of mystical martial arts would be Tao-ism since those are the MAs Batman knows. Basically anything involved with humility and religious piety. Anyway, that feat for Logan doesn’t show knowledge of an entire martial art.

Oh sorry. I misinterpreted what you said. The Karate Kid feat should make more skilled than Logan anyway

@causeimbatman:My defintion of mystical martial arts would be Tao-ism since those are the MAs Batman knows. Basically anything involved with humility and religious piety.

I see. So resisting soul attacks via training of the mind and body seems right up the alley.

Anyway, that feat for Logan doesn’t show knowledge of an entire martial art.

Well like I said, they haven't extrapolated on what the ability was exactly. But does Batman have any feats like this?

Oh sorry. I misinterpreted what you said.

No worries.

The Karate Kid feat should make more skilled than Logan anyway

Not necessarily. Out skilling Danny twice seems comparable to this feat.

Current Batman can be defeated by many, the Batman before new 52 would only be outskilled by wolverine and Taskmaster. Not that they are way more skilled than him, but those are the two who have the potential to outskill him

IF it’s no gear, MANY would beat Batman. His whole thing is mister contingency plan w gear. If you take away his belt he’s talented, high level for sure, but there’s many ppl in the comic universe who would beat him in H2H. I’d say a good 100 or more.

@brucerogers: Batman doesn’t have anything like resisting soul attacks but having more knowledge rather than one technique is more useful in combat.

I’d say The Karate Kid feat is still more impressive due to Batman being at a disadvantage because he was fighting in zero gravity while Karate Kid was using martial arts that work well in zero gravity. And Batman was still gaining the upper hand. Even if we say Danny is more skilled than Val, the difference is marginal due to Val mastering every hand to hand combat style up to the 30th century and being skilled enough to utilize martial arts that make him a mid tier. Batman being at a disadvantage in the fight while KK adjusting to zero gravity, should make Batman more skilled by a decent bit. Plus wasn’t Logan’s fight with IF a sparring match? It shows high lvl skill but strait up fights>>sparring matches obviously.

@causeimbatman: Batman doesn’t have anything like resisting soul attacks but having more knowledge rather than one technique is more useful in combat.

Alright but we don't know if Logan's techniques were just standalone or part of something bigger.

I’d say The Karate Kid feat is still more impressive due to Batman being at a disadvantage because he was fighting in zero gravity while Karate Kid was using martial arts that work well in zero gravity. And Batman was still gaining the upper hand. Even if we say Danny is more skilled than Val, the difference is marginal due to Val mastering every hand to hand combat style up to the 30th century and being skilled enough to utilize martial arts that make him a mid tier. Batman being at a disadvantage in the fight while KK adjusting to zero gravity, should make Batman more skilled by a decent bit. Plus wasn’t Logan’s fight with IF a sparring match? It shows high lvl skill but strait up fights>>sparring matches obviously.

Pound for pound, I say Val is more skilled than Danny. But I was speaking with the context with his fight with Batman in mind. And while Logan did beat him in a sparring match where both were holding back, it does show he can at least match skill with him. It was a feat of pure skill since neither were using their powers. At least offensively.

The second time where he outperformed Danny was beating and nearly killing Junzo Muto, who had stolen Danny's powers and beat Danny with ease.

@brucerogers:

“But I was speaking with the context with his fight with Batman in mind. “

What?

It does show Logan can hold his own, but still. Sparring is more like testing each other out, training. Obviously both won’t apply as much effort as fighting in training. It’s a solid feat but it doesn’t show Logan is on Danny’s caliber of skill.

How did Muto beat Danny?

Even without his punching through human stats? I'd say Kane Kelly is more skilled since he took down an entire lab.

@causeimbatman:

It’s a solid feat but it doesn’t show Logan is on Danny’s caliber of skill.

Why not? Despite the fact that both were most likely holding back, beating a skilled fighter like Danny through sheer skill establishes Logan, at minimum, a peer in skill to Danny.