@nassergrant19: Maul has the most raw force power currently here, though Ahsoka is close to him. He also has the most force potential by far. As the son of Mother Talzin, Maul was stated to have the potential to rival and even surpass Palpatine’s own power.
Given we still don't have the Ahsoka show she could be number one if she gets new feats.
In potential it's Ben, with Maul in second place, considering Ben had the same potential as Anakin:
The revelation felt like a betrayal. Ben, who took after Anakin Skywalker in his powerful Force abilities and hot-headed nature, was crushed by the realization that his parents and his uncle had known the truth for decades yet had not seen fit to share it with him.S
Skywalker: Family at War
Anakin's potential >> Everyone else's before Kylo was born, so even considering Maul had the potential to surpass Sidious as well, he wouldn't get as far as Anakin, the Chosen One.
I heard Kylo has insane Raw force power, I have no idea if it's true or not.
It's not. His best, and most wanked feat, Is crumbling two stone statues that were clearly not in the best shape at the time. Most of his other raw power claims come from baseless statements. Pre-ESB Luke puts him to shame:
Kylo has no way to even compete other than Force powers. And even in that department he's outmatched. Since Pre-ESB Luke shook a Star Destroyer on accident, when he lashed-out:
And in case you don't know. A Star Destroyer weighs 40 million tons:
The best Force feats from Kylo pale in comparison to this.
The only thing he has going for him is the wank he gets from certain people that unironically believe he's >= Anakin because he had "Longer training." When his fellow students were vastly below Padawan Ahsoka. One couldn't even redirect/stop a Lightsaber when he was trying to do so.
Eh. So far, Maul has shown the most raw power. The Hyperdrive feat is still pretty good. Ahsoka pushing him once doesn't mean she equal to him in Force. The same way she doesn't scale to Vader, or how Kanan & Ezra don't do so.
OT: Maul with Ahsoka being right next to him. Ben has displayed nothing other than bringing down badly kept statues that showed big cracks all over them.
@heiqn: Ye. Some unironically believed him and Rey were above Anakin because he had the statue feat and displayed more use of the Force. Until this beauty happened and reminded us why the PT high-tiers earned the title of Titans:
Base Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
Which pretty much solidify the idea that Rey & Kylo are nothing but mid-tiers in Force power. And low-tiers in Sabers.
I also don't see how having a longer training puts Kylo above the chosen one. People seriously believe that?
It's also important to note that by using this logic Dooku > RoTS Anakin/Zonakin/KFV & RoTJ Luke. All because he had more training than them. Which shows where this line of thinking falls.
@cryolancer47: I am basically ranking Ahsoka high because of his performance against Maul in TCW S7 where she was superior to slightly hindered Maul, and her respectable growth till Rebels where she was not ragdolled by Vader should make her closer to Dooku than Maul.
I am basically ranking Ahsoka high because of his performance against Maul in TCW S7, and her respectable growth till Rebels should make her closer to Dooku than Maul.
Yeah, I'm aware. I also have Ahsoka at Dooku level. Although behind Dooku by a good margin due to lack of feats.
Ahsoka has some decent TK feats as well:
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Indeed. But she hasn't displayed anything close to the level of the Hyperdrive feat. Even later on in her future appearances. So Maul is still comfortably better than her in that regard. Feat wise, at least.
Unless you think Vader was holding back against her, she outperforms Maul against a titan. the latter got ragdolled in his first encounter with Sidious and blitzed in SOC.
And she beating him decisively pre-prime seals the deal.
Unless you think Vader was holding back against her, she outperforms Maul against a titan.
I think you're ignoring the part where she was beaten with low-diff in 47 seconds and only landed a Force push when Vader overextended with his swing. As well as later landing her only actual hit on him via a cheapshot that broke a part of his mask. She was pressed to hell against him. And was clearly struggling to keep up in the last 10 second, before he Force pushed her with ease off the cliff. If Vader was actively using the Force. He would've negged her with even more ease. Thanks to the scaling he gets from his comic feats. So Vader was clearly not going all-out from the start. But even with Sabers only. He beat Ahsoka.
the latter got ragdolled in his first encounter with Sidious and blitzed in SOC.
To be fair it's Sidious. Getting ragdolled by him isn't an anti-feat. That's the equivalent of God going out of his way to smite you out of spite.
We can't really hold it against Maul. The same way we can't do so against Dooku.
And she beating him decisively pre-prime seals the deal.
She only did so thanks to the environment. Not the Force. Which is the topic of the OP. In which Maul has displayed better raw Force power than Ahsoka. And even him losing had some context. Maul was trying to convert that Ahsoka and held back until he brought it up one last time before actually going for the kill. He also easily disarmed her twice. She landed one kick in the beginning of the fight. And blocked and threw him out of the Throne room. Every other part of the fight showed Maul being clearly superior even in Sabers only.
S7 Ahsoka being > Maul requires ignoring context for it to be true.
I think you're ignoring the part where she was beaten with low-diff in 47 seconds and only landed a Force push when Vader overextended with his swing. As well as later landing her only actual hit on him via a cheapshot that broke a part of his mask. She was pressed to hell against him. And was clearly struggling to keep up in the last 10 second, before he Force pushed her with ease off the cliff. If Vader was actively using the Force. He would've negged her with even more ease. Thanks to the scaling he gets from his comic feats. So Vader was clearly not going all-out from the start. But even with Sabers only. He beat Ahsoka.
Vader neither ragdolled nor blitzed her, I completely agree he dominated and low diffed Ahsoka, but even in that Ahsoka's performance against a titan+ is better than Maul getting blitzed by ROTS Sidious which is below this Vader.
To be fair it's Sidious. Getting ragdolled by him isn't an anti-feat. That's the equivalent of God going out of his way to smite you out of spite.
We can't really hold it against Maul. The same way we can't do so against Dooku.
I am not talking about anti feat, I am talking about performance against similar combatants.
Maul could not defend himself against toying Sidious not to get ragdolled, while in rage amp was disarmed by not holding back Sidious in 4 seconds, and could not aug himself enough not to get blitzed in SOC.
While Ahsoka at least kept up with Vader. Ahsoka was dominated by a titan+ while Maul was curbed by a titan.
And she beating him decisively pre-prime seals the deal.
Eh, it's a contextual fight that can benefit both parties, I really don't want to get into it that much.
But it's clear as day that they are both portrayed as on par when Ahsoka was pre-prime.
Vader neither ragdolled nor blitzed her, I completely agree he dominated and low diffed Ahsoka, but even in that Ahsoka's performance against a titan+ is better than Maul getting blitzed by ROTS Sidious which is below this Vader.
To be honest, clashing blades with a Titan who wasn't doing anything impressive like Vader doesn't make her such a high-tier. There's also the issue that Rebels Ahsoka has been confirmed as inferior to Rebels Maul both in-universe via them splitting up and keeping Ezra with the strongest of the 3 Force users, A.k.a. Maul.
But in case that doesn't convince you, check dis out:
Referencing Malachor here.
Given that the “logical choice” is pairing Maul with “the weakest of the Jedi”, it then follows that Maul is the strongest of the group. Furthermore, the gap between Ahsoka and Maul is noticeable enough that Kanan (and Ahsoka) are willing to trust Maul with Ezra (Ahsoka and Kanan clearly care for him and likely won’t place him in danger unless absolutely necessary).
This is reflected in Maul and Ahsoka’s respective performances with the Inquisitorius.
In both cases, we have Ahsoka’s superiority to the Inquisitors being evident (less so for the second clip, but I’m letting that slide). In the first clip, she drives them back with some effort, and in the second she (along with Kanan) drive back another pair of Inquisitors. To contrast, Maul casually annihilates them:
Which is supported by the claim that Maul “does so easily” in reference to defeating the Inquisitors. Ahsoka handles the Inquisitors the way Maul handles Qui-Gon in TPM--by taking them out in an extended fight. Maul handles the Inquisitors the way Sidious handles the B-Team in ROTS. From the multiple pieces of evidence that support the claim, we can establish that Maul is indeed a superior to Ahsoka as of Rebels, by a noticeable margin nonetheless.
There's also this quote from Matt Martin about Rebels Maul in comparison to his TCW self:
So this old, rusty Maul managing to keep up with Ahsoka and ragdolling the Inquisitors while Ahsoka, Kanan & Ezra chat is a testament to how powerful a Younger Maul is in comparison. So ruling him out cause he got ragdolled by the Sheev-sack is a bit unfair. Cause Ahsoka got manhandled in a similar manner by Vader in a strictly Saber combat only situation.
I am not talking about anti feat, I am talking about performance against similar combatants.
Eh. Vader is above this Sheev. But it's important to note that Maul was getting humiliated against an opponent who used the Force on them from the start. Which Maul & Savage struggled to break out of when slammed against the glass at the beginning. As well as Sheev using a powerful two-handed Force Push to knock Maul out. While Ahsoka only fought & struggled in a Sabers only situation.
Maul could not defend himself against toying Sidious not to get ragdolled, while in rage amp was disarmed by not holding back Sidious in 4 seconds, and could not aug himself enough not to get blitzed in SOC.
Sidious toying while using Sabers =/ to him clearly using a powerful Force push that took Maul out when Sheev was clearly breathing heavily from fighting the duo. It's also important to note that they were also taken by surprise from the start. And Maul landing a hit on a toying Sidious while rage-amped is still impressive when you consider how the same toying Sidious was dealing with him and Savage a few moments ago. It was similar to Ahsoka VS Vader. Where one side was clearly dominating and not going all-out and using their full arsenal.
While Ahsoka at least kept up with Vader. Ahsoka was dominated by a titan+ while Maul was curbed by a titan.
She didn't keep up. Her keeping up implies parity. What we see says otherwise. Vader was blocking every hit and she never landed anything other than a Force-Push, thanks to her Agility. Along with a cheapshot later on. At least Maul landed an actual hit on a toying Titan when the latter had him in his sights. Ahsoka was negged by Vader. And he had 0 struggle from what we see on-screen. Vader put more effort against Kirak Infil'a than he did against Ahsoka.
Given that more potential directly correlates to more raw power, Ben is the pretty obvious victor here. Maul comes second due to his potential exceeding the likes of Talzin and PT Sidious, coupled with his own Venator feat. Ahsoka comes up short by a pretty significant margin.
Luke and Snoke noted his raw power. Palpatine saw immense potential in him. Had he not died at 30 years old, he probably would've equaled or surpassed Vader one day.
And in case you don't know. A Star Destroyer weighs 40 million tons:
Not in space it doesn't.
He wasn't lifting, or moving it. He shook it. The amount of Force needed to shake something like that from the inside is still insane. So it being in space doesn't negate the feat. Nor affects it in anyway.
Given we still don't have the Ahsoka show she could be number one if she gets new feats.
In potential it's Ben, with Maul in second place, considering Ben had the same potential as Anakin:
The revelation felt like a betrayal. Ben, who took after Anakin Skywalker in his powerful Force abilities and hot-headed nature, was crushed by the realization that his parents and his uncle had known the truth for decades yet had not seen fit to share it with him.S
Skywalker: Family at War
Anakin's potential >> Everyone else's before Kylo was born, so even considering Maul had the potential to surpass Sidious as well, he wouldn't get as far as Anakin, the Chosen One.
Neither would Kylo. Or are you trying to imply that Kylo inherited Anakin's potential? Cause he did not. The quote just says he resembles him in his strong Force power and Hot-headed nature (Mind you, Anakin wasn't, and hasn't displayed Stupidity and recklessness on the level of Kylo, until he was hindered to all hell and became Mustafar Vader.)
Anakin's potential >>>>>>>> Luke's potential >> RoTJ Sidious >>> everyone else's. Luke being the direct descendant of Space Jesus helped him more. While Kylo is mixed blood. So if you want to argue anyone "Inherited" Which is BS. That's not how it works. Anakin's Force potential, it's more likely to be Luke than Kylo.
And in case you don't know. A Star Destroyer weighs 40 million tons:
Not in space it doesn't.
He wasn't lifting, or moving it. He shook it. The amount of Force needed to shake something like that from the inside is still insane. So it being in space doesn't negate the feat. Nor affects it in anyway.
You have a fundamentally faulty understanding of what gives things weight.
Luke and Snoke noted his raw power. Palpatine saw immense potential in him. Had he not died at 30 years old, he probably would've equaled or surpassed Vader one day.
What Luke & Snoke said matters very little when what we see goes against those baseless statements. Cause if we're to believe what is said by Luke. That would mean TLJ Kylo's potential > RoTJ Palpatine's. But we all saw what happens when the confirmed weaker Zombie Palpatine ragdolls him & Rey.
Also, him reaching Vader level is Impossible in every way. Vader still kept his Potential as Anakin. So implying that 30 year old Ben, has any potential half as good as Anakin's. When the latter surpassed RoTS Sidious at 21 or something. Only to get hindered, and hindered more by the loss of limbs and work around it to surpass his previous peak. That's something purely Impossible with the potential Kylo showed. It's as unlikely as the Sun and Moon going near each other.
At the end of his life, Vader was only 80% of RoTJ Sheev. So Kylo surpassing him, or Luke, his direct descendant, is BS that relies on holding on to a baseless statement from TLJ Luke. And Snoke always shits on Kylo and talks about he's no Darth Vader. He even states in the comics, that he would've preferred if Luke was on his side, instead of Kylo. Cause if he was, the Galaxy would've been under his rule ages ago.
You have a fundamentally faulty understanding of what gives things weight.
What? No I didn't. I just gave everyone an idea about how heavy a Star Destroyer is. Also, in Star Wars. Stuff like that isn't the most accurate 100% of the time. So there's some leeway to be given if it breaks real world logic.
Wait Kylo was 30 in TROS?? So that means Luke was already vastly above him at 21/22 with like 25% of the training 😂 poor Kylo has been done so dirty as a character
Wait Kylo was 30 in TROS?? So that means Luke was already vastly above him at 21/22 with like 25% of the training 😂 poor Kylo has been done so dirty as a character
Yes Kylo is only 30 in TROS.
Makes the writing of TLJ even weirder. Luke says that Ben looks like a frightened boy when Ben is already 23 at that point. It's not like Luke was in his 80s and a 23-year-old would very much be a boy to him.
Additionally, the TLJ novelization says Ben looks not quite a boy, not quite a man. It's weird all around.
In-universe, I suppose Luke was already a boss by 23 years old because he had more confidence than Ben or Kylo. Even when Ben became Kylo, he never had the dark side yellow eyes. He had too much doubt. Let's also not forget he cracked his kyber crystal when bleeding it from blue to red.
Wait Kylo was 30 in TROS?? So that means Luke was already vastly above him at 21/22 with like 25% of the training 😂 poor Kylo has been done so dirty as a character
Yes Kylo is only 30 in TROS.
Makes the writing of TLJ even weirder. Luke says that Ben looks like a frightened boy when Ben is already 23 at that point. It's not like Luke was in his 80s and a 23-year-old would very much be a boy to him.
I always found that line odd too. I think placing Kylo in his late 20’s/early 30’s just wasn’t a good choice, having him in his early 20’s as of TFA would have made more sense to me.
Anyways OT: probably Maul based on feats, but Ahsoka isn’t very far behind.
You have a fundamentally faulty understanding of what gives things weight.
What? No I didn't. I just gave everyone an idea about how heavy a Star Destroyer is. Also, in Star Wars. Stuff like that isn't the most accurate 100% of the time. So there's some leeway to be given if it breaks real world logic.
Weight is a function of being affected by Gravity. Its why you weigh less on the moon then you do on earth. Saying something weighs 40 million tons doesn't mean anything until its effected by gravity, and even then its subjective to the celestial bodies gravitation.
A Star Destroyer, in space, weighs nothing. Literally zero.
And while its not always 100% accurate, the function of gravity and weightlessness has been established in Star Wars, so you cannot discount the laws of physics in its entirety.
Weight is a function of being affected by Gravity. Its why you weigh less on the moon then you do on earth. Saying something weighs 40 million tons doesn't mean anything until its effected by gravity, and even then its subjective to the celestial bodies gravitation.
That is true. But gravity does have effect inside the Star Destroyer. Where everything retains it's natural weight. And Luke shaking it with a blast from the inside, to the point where everyone felt it, doesn't discredit the feat. Since things on the inside retain their original weight:
A Star Destroyer, in space, weighs nothing. Literally zero.
Well, duh. And that's why it floats. But the size of the thing still remains. A regular human can't push something like that with his bare hands. Even in space. And if it hits you, you're screwed. It still retains the property of of something that had such a weight on the inside. Where gravity still functions. And even if it was 3rd of the original weight from the inside. Luke shaking it is still a feat. Do you think Vader would be impressed if he didn't shake something like that?
And while its not always 100% accurate, the function of gravity and weightlessness has been established in Star Wars, so you cannot discount the laws of physics in its entirety.
The functions established are the basic stuff. Inside a ship, everything retains it's original weight. Outside ship, you weigh nothing and die if you go out without gear. And it's not the first time someone in Star Wars moved or struggled with something in space, where it should weigh nothing:
Anakin hurls a giant escape pod with Durge in it into a star:
Gallery
So as you can see in the 2nd & 3rd scans. Anakin clearly needs to focus to redirect the pod, and required effort to redirect something that should be "weightless".
This is a stronger Anakin than the one who can casually do this with a handwave:
Anakin casually hurls aside dozens of Super Battle Droids:
Real world logic isn't always followed 100% of the time in Star Wars.
Also, shaking a 40 Million Ton Star Destroyer is a feat. It being in space and floating doesn't suddenly mean it loses it's density & thickness. You won't be able to suddenly cut through it with a butter-knife just because it's in space. So Luke still shook 40 Million tons of metal that's floating in space, from the inside of said vehicle. Where gravity still works. And it was so impressive, that even Vader went out of his way to compliment Luke for performing such a feat.
You do realize even in space objects have momentum and mass right? it really doesn't matter if the object is not affected by gravity, you still need to give it enough pressure to overpower the mass and momentum.
And the Star Destroyer is not stationary, which makes it way worse to try to shake it out of the course with the energy it is producing to move forward.
You do realize even in space objects have momentum and mass right? it really doesn't matter if the object is not affected by gravity, you still need to give it enough pressure to overpower the mass and momentum.
And the Star Destroyer is not stationary, which makes it way worse to try to shake it out of the course with the energy it is producing to move forward.
I do. But that wasn't what I said, or what I was arguing against. He quoted somethings weight, which is irrelevant.
Its weight, especially coming from a sourcebook targeting us, would be rationally meassured by a gravity multiplier similar to Earth which would be ten, so its completely reasonable for us to calculate its mass using the said weight to a quantifiable feat.
I'm unsure, for the longest time I would have said Ben, but he was ragdolled by Zombie Palpatine who is confirmed vastly below RoTS Palpatine.
Maul was able to land a Force Push on TCW Palpatine, who should be comparable if not equivelant to his RoTS self, disarming him and pinning him to a wall in a canon deleted scene. Furthermore he launched S7 Ahsoka away with ease, who was capable of holding back a shuttle of similar size to the stormtrooper carrier Ben struggled to pull down.
I imagine Maul has access to the most raw power, but Ben's overall potential is likely greater. Ahsoka is weaker than both of them imo but not by leagues
@kaore: that was never confirmed. Matt Martin, who has also said things like TROS Rey>ROTJ Luke, said that zombie Palpatine was “weaker”. Which he was, he was physically weaker. Not weaker in the force.
A more reliable source, the canon book Secrets of the Sith, implies that zombie palpatine=ROTJ Palpatine. Zombie Palpatine himself states that the unlimited power of the dark side is still with him after his death in ROTJ.
Also, remember that he was amped by the dark side nexus of Exegol, AND the spirits of ALL THE SITH when he ragdolled Rey and Ben.
@sonofdarkness: Interesting. If Zombie Palps ~ RoTJ Palps that makes Ben being ragdolled much less damaging for him given RoTJ Palps has ragdolled the likes of Vader. In that case, yeah, I would back Ben for having the most raw power.
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