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#1 Posted by buildhare (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

Who can not only survive the sequence but kill a similar amount of men to Jon in the melee? Everyone has standard gear and otherwise assumes Jon's exact role in the scene.

  • Bronn
  • Brienne
  • Oberyn
  • The Hound
  • The Mountain
  • Khal Drogo
  • Karl fookin Tanner
  • Arthur Dayne

Who does it the best?

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#2 Posted by Superhero24 (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Khal Drogo

Arthur Dayne

Bronn

The Hound

Oberyn

not sure about Mountain or Brienne. They are pretty big. It might be difficult with endurance for them.

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#3 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

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#4 Posted by DarthFallax (1091 posts) - - Show Bio

All of them bar Karl and maybe Drogo, yeah.

Brienne prolly does it the best.

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#5 Edited by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio

Karl and Drogo can't, probably Obeyrn too. The others should.

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#6 Posted by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

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#7 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

Oberyn had history fighting in a sellsword company. I think he can use many types of weapons, and the spear is just his favorite, and is also tailored against someone like Gregor. We've seen people with spears kicking ass and taking names in GoT though (Grey Worm), so I'd bet Oberyn can do it too.

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#8 Edited by buildhare (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce said:
@the_red_viper said:

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

Oberyn had history fighting in a sellsword company. I think he can use many types of weapons, and the spear is just his favorite, and is also tailored against someone like Gregor. We've seen people with spears kicking ass and taking names in GoT though (Grey Worm), so I'd bet Oberyn can do it too.

And struggle in very close quarters with groups of enemies, I don't think BotB really suits a spear user at all.

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#9 Posted by green_skaar (10858 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn, Dayne, Drogo in no particular order.

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#10 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:
@six-deuce said:
@the_red_viper said:

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

Oberyn had history fighting in a sellsword company. I think he can use many types of weapons, and the spear is just his favorite, and is also tailored against someone like Gregor. We've seen people with spears kicking ass and taking names in GoT though (Grey Worm), so I'd bet Oberyn can do it too.

And struggle in very close quarters with groups of enemies, I don't think BotB really suits a spear user at all.

Who outnumbered him like at least 12 to 1 and had him surrounded in a narrow corridor, in Casterly Rock he had no problem butchering Lannisters left and right. I made a respect thread for him just a couple of hours ago actually.

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#11 Posted by buildhare (6544 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare said:
@the_red_viper said:
@six-deuce said:
@the_red_viper said:

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

Oberyn had history fighting in a sellsword company. I think he can use many types of weapons, and the spear is just his favorite, and is also tailored against someone like Gregor. We've seen people with spears kicking ass and taking names in GoT though (Grey Worm), so I'd bet Oberyn can do it too.

And struggle in very close quarters with groups of enemies, I don't think BotB really suits a spear user at all.

Who outnumbered him like at least 12 to 1 and had him surrounded in a narrow corridor, in Casterly Rock he had no problem butchering Lannisters left and right. I made a respect thread for him just a couple of hours ago actually.

Who nearly all attacked him one after the other and were also almost all beaten using to the shield. Oberyn lacks that luxury and a shield, what Greyworm did isn't really comparable to what Oberyn needs to do here. In general gear is probably the most important thing in this scenario. A spear means he can attack from further away but in a fight where you're constantly being rushed on all sides how much does that actually do for you? Especially considering a spear user has to commit more to each kill than a swordsmen (thrusting v slashing, one doesn't need to slow down at all) and leave themselves exposed for longer, which is how most people were caught out in that fight.

Gear is important for the rest as well, Brienne and Gregor are the most protected but they're also extremely vulnerable to mounted riders whereas Bronn or Drogo can avoid them like Jon did.

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#12 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:
@buildhare said:
@the_red_viper said:
@six-deuce said:
@the_red_viper said:

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

this. I would add Oberyn as well only because a lot of those specific feats would be very difficult to replicate with a spear.

Oberyn had history fighting in a sellsword company. I think he can use many types of weapons, and the spear is just his favorite, and is also tailored against someone like Gregor. We've seen people with spears kicking ass and taking names in GoT though (Grey Worm), so I'd bet Oberyn can do it too.

And struggle in very close quarters with groups of enemies, I don't think BotB really suits a spear user at all.

Who outnumbered him like at least 12 to 1 and had him surrounded in a narrow corridor, in Casterly Rock he had no problem butchering Lannisters left and right. I made a respect thread for him just a couple of hours ago actually.

Who nearly all attacked him one after the other and were also almost all beaten using to the shield. Oberyn lacks that luxury and a shield, what Greyworm did isn't really comparable to what Oberyn needs to do here. In general gear is probably the most important thing in this scenario. A spear means he can attack from further away but in a fight where you're constantly being rushed on all sides how much does that actually do for you? Especially considering a spear user has to commit more to each kill than a swordsmen (thrusting v slashing, one doesn't need to slow down at all) and leave themselves exposed for longer, which is how most people were caught out in that fight.

Gear is important for the rest as well, Brienne and Gregor are the most protected but they're also extremely vulnerable to mounted riders whereas Bronn or Drogo can avoid them like Jon did.

Grey Worm ditched the shield at a relatively early phase of that fight (1:37), most of his kills were with his spear, although yeah he did use the shield a little as well.

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Also, Oberyn can cut with the side of his spear like he did to Gregor's calf. Not as effectively as a sword, granted, but still. In any case, being a part of a sellsword company (and IIRC in the books he also formed a company of his own) means that he has experience in large open battles.

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#13 Posted by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

It would require some new techniques as yet unshown to get Oberyn with his long poisoned spear through some of those hectic fightscenes. Maybe it is possible, seems more likely he would get it caught in the spokes of the wooden stairwell while twirling it and stabbed in the back by a wildling before he could recover. Not to say he isn't skilled enough, just this set of circumstances does not suit him.

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#14 Edited by ParagonNate (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

Most fighters worth anything in the show. A lot of Jon's opponents in that sequence were distracted or already fighting someone else. The ones that he did take head on came at him, usually, one at a time or only a few and they all got one or two shotted and very few of them required any elaborate swordsmanship on Jon's part.

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#15 Edited by lubub55 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

Most fighters mentioned.

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#16 Posted by SupremeGeneration (6632 posts) - - Show Bio

Arthur Dayne probably does it easiest, that Tower of Joy fight was something else.

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#17 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce: As I said, Oberyn's history as a sellsword means that he has experience in large scale battles like the BotB. Coupled with his obvious martial skill, speed amd agility, I cam definitely see him breezing through a battlefield like that.

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#18 Edited by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Sure, but I doubt he would select such a poor weapon choice for the battlefield as the one he is stuck with here. At the very least he would be armed similar to the way you see other Dornishmen armed for warfare. As I said, I don't doubt at all that Oberyn is skillful enough to do all this, he is hindered by the OP rules here however.

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#19 Edited by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce said:

@the_red_viper: Sure, but I doubt he would select such a poor weapon choice for the battlefield as the one he is stuck with here. At the very least he would be armed similar to the way you see other Dornishmen armed for warfare. As I said, I don't doubt at all that Oberyn is skillful enough to do all this, he is hindered by the OP rules here however.

I doubt he will have a problem using his spear in a large scale battle. It's also unclear at what point of the fight they start, if it's before shit started going down I doubt Oberyn would have run forward solo like Jon did. Then he would have been on horseback which is better for him.

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#20 Posted by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

Drogo may be quite ill-equipped for this, and is probably the most likely casualty in the list. I'm not sure that Karl Tanner can survive, either. Oberyn could die, but only if he approaches the battle in an unwise manner.

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#21 Posted by cdiddyman911 (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

Only Karl can't, maybe Oberyn depending on how careless he is.

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#22 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (13504 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Who do you think would win in a fight between Bronn vs Jon ??

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#23 Posted by Thorthunder98 (4767 posts) - - Show Bio

Karl can't, Oberyn and Drogo I'm not sure about, not sure how Oberyn's fight style is suited to a large battle being swarmed constantly, and Drogo has no armour but he's quick enough to dodge and stuff and we saw Dothraki take on Lannisters so I'm inclined to say he can. Bronn likely can too but unsure on him too but I'd lean to him being able to.

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#24 Posted by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: There is a reason roman soldiers routinely trounced framae (spear) wielding celts and germanics. The spear is unwieldy in tight quarters....I imagine Oberyn would go to battle with different kit, like a scimitar and buckler (to remain thematic) or something.

I guess we are splitting hairs, I agree Oberyn is definitely skilled enough....who knows, maybe he could muscle through the handicap on skill alone.

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#25 Edited by Shazam99 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

The Fookin Legend and Bronn definitely don't pull it off. Drogo doesn't have the feats. The Mountain and Brienne are too slow, Jon had some arrow-timing moments in there.

I'm very confident Dayne clears. Oberyn is crazy fast, incredibly technically skilled, and has the most versatile experience of basically anyone. He definitely survives as well, despite a probable weapon disadvantage in-context. The Hound is one of the most well-rounded fighters on the show, I'll also give him the benefit of the doubt.

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#26 Posted by TheSuperor (5345 posts) - - Show Bio

The Hound

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#27 Posted by SirDrProfessor (1684 posts) - - Show Bio

All of the above probably barring Karl and maybe Drogo.

This

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#28 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by ParagonNate (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

@shazam99 said:

The Fookin Legend and Bronn definitely don't pull it off. Drogo doesn't have the feats. The Mountain and Brienne are too slow, Jon had some arrow-timing moments in there.

I'm very confident Dayne clears. Oberyn is crazy fast, incredibly technically skilled, and has the most versatile experience of basically anyone. He definitely survives as well, despite a probable weapon disadvantage in-context. The Hound is one of the most well-rounded fighters on the show, I'll also give him the benefit of the doubt.

No dang it. Jon wasn't arrow timing. He was ducking into a ball and managing not to get hit by arrows that were mass fired and unaimed. If he had swatted one out of the air it would have been arrow timing, but as it is he's no more an arrow timer than any other man that didn't get hit by an arrow during the battle.

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#30 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: To be fair, while you're 100% right that Jon only avoided the arrows on the battlefield by sheer luck, he did arrow-time a bit later when he fought Ramsay.

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#31 Posted by ParagonNate (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: To be fair, while you're 100% right that Jon only avoided the arrows on the battlefield by sheer luck, he did arrow-time a bit later when he fought Ramsay.

Ehhhhhhh. Eeeeeeehhhhhh. He had a shield there, and Ramsey had to draw the bow before firing. Ramsey draws, aimed, and loosed and Jon raised his shield when Ramsey aimed but before he fired. Thaat's not exactly what I would call arrow timing. Regular humans did that a lot throughout history. I mean it's a nice showing. But far from amazing.

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For reference, starts at the important bit.

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#32 Edited by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: First time is arguable, but with the second and third times, Jon raised his shield after Ramsay released the arrows. It requires the same reaction speed as catching the arrow or slicing it in mid-air, albeit not as much percision/dexterity.

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#33 Edited by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn

Brienne

The Hound

The Mountain

Arthur Dayne

I'm not seeing how the Mountain isn't the greatest battlefield warrior in the series, to be honest.

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#34 Posted by pastepotpete1 (2193 posts) - - Show Bio

jon snow became king of the north because he is has a lot of heart , bravery , and he is good at making speeches not because he is a great figther .. he isnt a great fighter but he is very good not just better than average but faaaaaaaar better

jon snow isnt even in top ten .. jon snow got punked by Olly

Khal Drogo

Arthur Dayne

Bronn

The Hound

Oberyn

not sure about Mountain or Brienne. They are pretty big. It might be difficult with endurance for them.

mountain would destroy jon snow .. tv show briene would do too .. not sure about the book briene .. tv show briene kicked jamies ass when he has two hands .. tormund knows he would kick jon snows ass but he respects snow

wait you think mountain can beat snow but the hound can ? okay i am done here

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#35 Posted by deactivated-5a220d15cc740 (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: First time is arguable, but with the second and third times, Jon raised his shield after Ramsay released the arrows. It requires the same reaction speed as catching the arrow or slicing it in mid-air, albeit not as much percision/dexterity.

Nice find. Not sure about the first two but the last one was definitely arrow-timing. Jon clearly raised the shield after Ramsey released the arrow. Jon is officially an arrow-timer now.

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#36 Posted by pastepotpete1 (2193 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@paragonnate: First time is arguable, but with the second and third times, Jon raised his shield after Ramsay released the arrows. It requires the same reaction speed as catching the arrow or slicing it in mid-air, albeit not as much percision/dexterity.

Nice find. Not sure about the first two but the last one was definitely arrow-timing. Jon clearly raised the shield after Ramsey released the arrow. Jon is officially an arrow-timer now.

we have absolutel y no idea how fast he was going to shoot the arrows ramsey looked slow doing it because when you are surrouned by death you arent going to fight well he didnt want to kill jon snow probably wanted to hit him in the shoulder and make him look weak .. if he killed jon snow they wouldve killed ramsey .. snow couldve snapped his neck couldve choked him gouged his eyes out but he just wanted to beat him down

if ramsey killed jon snow then tormund wouldve fought ramsey in a duo and beat him because jon snow is not the fighter tormund is

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#37 Edited by rogueshadow (24927 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Oberyn would survive, but I don't know if he'd match Jon's tally, wouldn't be surprised though.
  • Bronn would probably be the most comparable to Jon in this situation.
  • Tanner probably dies.
  • Battle tanks like the Mountain, the Hound and Brienne probably surpass Jon's tally (in that order).
  • Dayne would be cutting fools left and right as easily as he did Howland, who is probably still quite a bit above the average soldier.
  • Drogo would smoke this as well, random Dothraki were jumping behind enemy lines and cutting down four guys before they went down and Drogo made an absolute mockery of Mago without even drawing his weapon.
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#38 Posted by del_torro (2185 posts) - - Show Bio

Arthur is GOAT, it is known

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#39 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_fallen_lord said:
@the_red_viper said:

@paragonnate: First time is arguable, but with the second and third times, Jon raised his shield after Ramsay released the arrows. It requires the same reaction speed as catching the arrow or slicing it in mid-air, albeit not as much percision/dexterity.

Nice find. Not sure about the first two but the last one was definitely arrow-timing. Jon clearly raised the shield after Ramsey released the arrow. Jon is officially an arrow-timer now.

we have absolutel y no idea how fast he was going to shoot the arrows ramsey looked slow doing it because when you are surrouned by death you arent going to fight well he didnt want to kill jon snow probably wanted to hit him in the shoulder and make him look weak .. if he killed jon snow they wouldve killed ramsey .. snow couldve snapped his neck couldve choked him gouged his eyes out but he just wanted to beat him down

if ramsey killed jon snow then tormund wouldve fought ramsey in a duo and beat him because jon snow is not the fighter tormund is

Well it really has nothing to do with the fact that Jon raised his shield after the arrows were released.

By the way, @the_fallen_lord, just for reference Jaime is an arrow timer too (in the books).

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#40 Posted by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by xtreme1 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by The_Red_Viper (10692 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtreme1 said:

@the_red_viper: when did Jaime arrow time in the books?

"They were riding past a trampled wheatfield and a low stone wall when Jaime heard a soft thrum from behind, as if a dozen birds had taken flight at once. "Down!" he shouted, throwing himself against the neck of his horse. The gelding screamed and reared as an arrow took him in the rump."

A Storm of Swords
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#43 Posted by ParagonNate (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Oberyn would survive, but I don't know if he'd match Jon's tally, wouldn't be surprised though.
  • Bronn would probably be the most comparable to Jon in this situation.
  • Tanner probably dies.
  • Battle tanks like the Mountain, the Hound and Brienne probably surpass Jon's tally (in that order).
  • Dayne would be cutting fools left and right as easily as he did Howland, who is probably still quite a bit above the average soldier.
  • Drogo would smoke this as well, random Dothraki were jumping behind enemy lines and cutting down four guys before they went down and Drogo made an absolute mockery of Mago without even drawing his weapon.

The random Dothraki were also, y'know, behind the line, where peoples backs are. A lot easier to hit someone when their back is turned.

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#44 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce: excluding giants, dragons, and anything of the sort, of course.

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#45 Edited by rogueshadow (24927 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate said:
@rogueshadow said:
  • Oberyn would survive, but I don't know if he'd match Jon's tally, wouldn't be surprised though.
  • Bronn would probably be the most comparable to Jon in this situation.
  • Tanner probably dies.
  • Battle tanks like the Mountain, the Hound and Brienne probably surpass Jon's tally (in that order).
  • Dayne would be cutting fools left and right as easily as he did Howland, who is probably still quite a bit above the average soldier.
  • Drogo would smoke this as well, random Dothraki were jumping behind enemy lines and cutting down four guys before they went down and Drogo made an absolute mockery of Mago without even drawing his weapon.

The random Dothraki were also, y'know, behind the line, where peoples backs are. A lot easier to hit someone when their back is turned.

Except only one guy had his back turned; they actually had their backs to one another and by the time the Dothraki killed him, the Lannister soldier had already turned to face him as well:

No Caption Provided

The Dothraki was simply far faster and more skilled.

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#46 Posted by Keenko (5037 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I think it's important to remember that there was a dragon there and the Dothraki had the advantage of an ambush, I doubt the average Dothraki is going to be able to comfortably take on 4 Lannister soldiers.

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#47 Edited by rogueshadow (24927 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko said:

@rogueshadow: I think it's important to remember that there was a dragon there and the Dothraki had the advantage of an ambush, I doubt the average Dothraki is going to be able to comfortably take on 4 Lannister soldiers.

Dothraki are trained from the time they can walk/ride, they live, breath and die by their arakhs/horses/bows, battles like this are what they crave. Lannister soldiers are given a sword and shield, some training and are sent off to fight. It's true on the larger scale that they were ambushed and the dragons, but that doesn't negate that guy's feat, or the skill of their archers; the Dothraki were clearly supposed to be extremely skilled warriors. Dothraki are and should be far more skilled than a standard Westerosi soldier.

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#48 Posted by xtreme1 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

I think any of them can do it except maybe Karl. He possibly could but with our limited knowledge I'll say no. The OP says standard gear and I'm assuming they have pre-knowledge and are prepped for a pitched battle of two armies the same way Jon was prepped. For example, I don't think Oberyn's standard gear for a pitched battle would be the same gear and weapons he used in his duel with Gregor.

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#49 Posted by Six-Deuce (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtreme1:

@xtreme1 said:

I think any of them can do it except maybe Karl. He possibly could but with our limited knowledge I'll say no. The OP says standard gear and I'm assuming they have pre-knowledge and are prepped for a pitched battle of two armies the same way Jon was prepped. For example, I don't think Oberyn's standard gear for a pitched battle would be the same gear and weapons he used in his duel with Gregor.

if this is the set of circumstances, I agree with your assessment completely.

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#50 Posted by Keenko (5037 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I agree that the standard Dothraki is more skilled than your average run of the mill Lannister soldier, but skill=/=auto-win. Lannister soldiers are way better equipped for actual warfare.