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#1 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules:

  • In character.
  • This is Kill Bill Pai Mei.
  • Both Pai Mei and his opponent are unarmed in plain training clothes.
  • The character will arrive at Pai Mei's abode and challenge him to a contest of skill.
  • The character must be from a live-action comic-book property.
  • The character cannot have any powers/gear that give them an unfair advantage. Stats up to and including MCU Super-soldiers allowed.

Pai Mei

No Caption Provided

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#2 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

You can always just poison him when he's off-guard.

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#3 Posted by mrmonster (13624 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't really think of any. Even MCU Daredevil, who I consider to be the most skilled fighter from any live action comic book property, would not beat him.

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#4 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't really think of any. Even MCU Daredevil, who I consider to be the most skilled fighter from any live action comic book property, would not beat him.

What if I allow stats up to and including MCU Super-Soldiers?

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#5 Posted by mrmonster (13624 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmonster said:

I can't really think of any. Even MCU Daredevil, who I consider to be the most skilled fighter from any live action comic book property, would not beat him.

What if I allow stats up to and including MCU Super-Soldiers?

Even then it's a maybe. I give MCU Captain America a 50/50 shot at winning in unarmed combat.

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#6 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#7 Posted by Usha (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

I can.

I can't remember any of his feats tbh.

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#8 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@usha said:

I can.

I can't remember any of his feats tbh.

Hover over his name, there's a link to his fight with Kiddo.

He beat 60 Shaolin monks, beat the shit out of Bill offscreen, casually wrecked Beatrix (who already had training from Bill) for fun and he had great mastery of the pressure points, i.e. the five point palm exploding heart technique. And he was pretty clearly better than everybody we saw in Kill Bill, which is saying a lot.

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#9 Posted by Usha (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

He beat 60 Shaolin monks, beat the shit out of Bill offscreen, casually wrecked Beatrix (who already had training from Bill) for fun and he had great mastery of the pressure points, i.e. the five point palm exploding heart technique. And he was pretty clearly better than everybody we saw in Kill Bill, which is saying a lot.

Well in that case, I'm not sure if anybody stands a chance.

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#10 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#11 Posted by Super_Saiyan_Devil (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

With the rules you put I can't think of anybody who stands a chance against him.

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#12 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#13 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by juiceboks (24544 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa outstats him enough to do it and is skilled enough to hang IMO.

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#15 Posted by The_Magister (13012 posts) - - Show Bio

Choreography-force Daredevil and Melinda May

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#16 Edited by AbstractRaze (2226 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

You can always just poison him when he's off-gaurd

Loading Video...

As long we are talking about one disciple...

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#17 Edited by SocaJunkie (7872 posts) - - Show Bio

I like that the guy who played Johnny Mo also played Pai Mei. Beatrix beat one version of him and lost to the other.

Also funny that Pai Mei says he hates the Japanese when Mo was in the Yakuza.

OT: any super soldier.

The Five Point Exploding heart technique seems extremely unlikely to be successful given that we’ve only seen it performed on a seated Bill and nobody with superhuman speed is going to stand there and let it happen.

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#18 Posted by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

X-24.

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#19 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

X-24.

The character cannot have any powers/gear that give them an unfair advantage.

I like that the guy who played Johnny Mo also played Pai Mei. Beatrix beat one version of him and lost to the other.

OT: any super soldier.

The Five Point Exploding heart technique seems extremely unlikely to be successful given that we’ve only seen it performed on a seated Bill and nobody with superhuman speed is going to stand there and let it happen.

Bill actually seems to freeze and looks like he's in agony when she hits him with the first couple in rapid succession, I think it locks the opponent in place, kind of like Hundred Eyes' pressure points in Marco Polo.

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#20 Posted by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Isn't it up for interpretation what abilities give a character an unfair advantage? So if I had said Logan instead, he wouldn't get claws or healing?

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#21 Posted by SocaJunkie (7872 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Eh fair enough but would it freeze someone with superhuman durability? Pressure points are pressure points but I do wonder.

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#22 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Isn't it up for interpretation what abilities give a character an unfair advantage? So if I had said Logan instead, he wouldn't get claws or healing?

Logan wouldn't get healing or an adamantium skeleton, they are powers, only powers allowed are stat boosts up to MCU super-soldier levels. So he could have his stats and maybe the claws.

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#23 Posted by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio

Some possibilities: Blade, Sunny and Cyan (Into the Badlands), Black Panther, Iron Fist in Zen Mode.

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#24 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtreme1 said:

Some possibilities: Blade, Sunny and Cyan (Into the Badlands), Black Panther, Iron Fist in Zen Mode.

Live-action comic-book properties only, mate.

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#25 Posted by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Oh. In that case I'll change my answer. MCU Batroc probably?

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#26 Posted by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5328 posts) - - Show Bio

Mystique

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#28 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

@rogueshadow: Oh. In that case I'll change my answer. MCU Batroc probably?

To be honest, Batroc would get bodied imo.

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#29 Edited by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio

Ozymandius, Black Sky Elektra

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#30 Posted by SocaJunkie (7872 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yea, Fox Elektra.

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#31 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: This is hard to balance. What say you about the main man himself, MCU Cap?

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#32 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

@rogueshadow: This is hard to balance. What say yoy about the main man himself, MCU Cap?

Honestly, while Cap is way stronger/more durable, Pai Mei is more skilled and has OP pressure point techniques + wuxia gravity defying abilities, so it's like SocaJunkie said, it really depends what you think pressure points would do to him. I think they would work, if Luke Cage's skin was affected by them the SS should be too.

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#33 Posted by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Cap has demonstrated supple hand to hand combat skill that would allow him to, at the least, not be overwhelmed by Pai Mei. His superior reflexes and speed should help abridge the gap.

I also doubt Pai Mei would use the sacred 5 point exploding heart technique against an opponent he has no knowledge on in-character and during a random encounter. Cap only needs a few punches to down him anyway, and he'd probably succeed before Pai Mei decides to use that.

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#34 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

Stan Lee's hair-molster from Thor Ragnarok.

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#35 Posted by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Cap has demonstrated supple hand to hand combat skill that would allow him to, at the least, not be overwhelmed by Pai Mei. His superior reflexes and speed should help abridge the gap.

I also doubt Pai Mei would use the sacred 5 point exploding heart technique against an opponent he has no knowledge on in-character and during a random encounter. Cap only needs a few punches to down him anyway, and he'd probably succeed before Pai Mei decides to use that.

Pai Mei wrecked Bill who was a rival of Beatrix's but for the 5PPEHT and slaughtered a temple full of Shaolin Monks, this centuries before the present day when his powers would only be greater. I'm also not convinced Cap has better combat speed given how casually Pai Mei dodged Beatrix's sword.

Once Pai Mei realises what a threat Cap is, which should be relatively quickly, he would start going all out.

I'd rather not debate on this though.

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#36 Edited by SocaJunkie (7872 posts) - - Show Bio

Pai Mei massacred a bunch of monks because one of them didn’t acknowledge him nodding at them.

I can respect that.

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#37 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Off-panel accolades never hit as hard as tangible feats. Also, I'm not of the opinion Cap can't replicate all the best things Pai Mei has done, like stomping Bill, Beatrix, and steamrolling a temple of monks. I mean, he beat droves of Ultron bots who each can no-sell bullets, move freely while half submerged in concrete, and lift cars.

As for speed, iirc Cap blocked/timed bullets fired from Bucky in Winter Soldier. I can't remember if it's consistent but I can't think of anything to contradict it.

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#38 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

@rogueshadow: Off-panel accolades never hit as hard as tangible feats. Also, I'm not of the opinion Cap can't replicate all the best things Pai Mei has done, like stomping Bill, Beatrix, and steamrolling a temple of monks. I mean, he beat droves of Ultron bots who each can no-sell bullets, move freely while half submerged in concrete and can lift cars.

As for speed, iirc Cap timed bullets fired from Bucky in Winter Soldier.

I don't think Cap has ever legit concretely bullet-timed and that doesn't translate directly to combat speed. And if you're referring to the highway fight he didn't bullet-time.

Beating 60 Shaolin monks is a pretty cut and dry feat, there's no reason to assume it's anything less than what it is, we've seen Beatrix defeat the Crazy 88, all with swords, Pai Mei is clearly >>>> Beatrix, even by the end of the vol. 2, when she is shown to be comparable to Bill (with the 5PPEHT giving her the win) who took a beating from Pai Mei. Pai Mei clearly has wuxia, CTHD like skills and abilities.

I don't see Cap steamrolling a temple full of 60 monks unarmed to be honest, not if they had weapons, or the Crazy 88. Cap is obviously stronger and more durable, that doesn't need to be debated, but he isn't anywhere near as skilled in unarmed combat and he can be dropped by pressure points, victory definitely wouldn't be certain for him.

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#39 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

I don't think Cap has ever legit concretely bullet-timed and that doesn't translate directly to combat speed. And if you're referring to the highway fight he didn't bullet-time.

I misremembered. He didn't bullet time, he aim-blocked Bucky's shots. Apologies on that.

Beating 60 Shaolin monks is a pretty cut and dry feat, there's no reason to assume it's anything less than what it is, we've seen Beatrix defeat the Crazy 88, all with swords, Pai Mei is clearly >>>> Beatrix, even by the end of the vol. 2, when she is shown to be comparable to Bill (with the 5PPEHT giving her the win) who took a beating from Pai Mei. Pai Mei clearly has wuxia, CTHD like skills and abilities.

Pai Mei's skill is above Cap, but that's the only advantage you've presented him having here. And while skill goes a long way, everything Pai Mei has shown other than 5PPEHT are off-screen and closer to accolades then feats. Things like beating Bil and stomping monks are not exactly quantifiable in the sense you can use them to concretely argue that his skills are enough to alleviate the advantages Cap possesses in all other physical stats (strength, speed, durability).

I don't really remember what wuxia is so please reenlighten me on that.

I don't see Cap steamrolling a temple full of 60 monks unarmed to be honest, not if they had weapons, or the Crazy 88. Cap is obviously stronger and more durable, that doesn't need to be debated, but he isn't anywhere near as skilled in unarmed combat and he can be dropped by pressure points, victory definitely wouldn't be certain for him.

Lol I forgot Cap was unarmed here. I might just change my answer. But if he can't do it very few live action comic characters can, since gear isn't allowed for the most part and physical stats are super soldier level (Cap is like the epitome of MCU super soldiers).

Edit: I think I'll change my answer to X-Men origins standard Deadpool.

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#40 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: Him beating the Shaolin monks actually did happen on screen, in some other old-school kung fu movies where he appears, but I'm not sure if these movies are canon with Kill Bill or not.

Cap beating him is possible, if Pai Mei doesn't use the pressure points. He is obviously far more durable than anyone Pai Mei has ever met and his strikes won't do too much damage to Cap, he'll have to tag him a lot to make any significant damage. But on the other hand he is also fast as all hell so Cap will have a hard time tagging him. I can see it going either way.

Other than that, maybe Nuada from Hellboy II. Ozymandias is also possible, as well as V. Those are all maybes, they may win and they may lose.

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#41 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

no one.

if push come to shove he use the 5 palm hand technique and end what ever comic book clown stand in front of him

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#42 Edited by The_Hajduk (5518 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I think it's the same Pai Mei. When Bill tells the Bride about him at the campfire, he says that Pai Mei was around in the year 1001 or something, so I guess he's immortal (the old Shaw Bros movies of course take place in ancient Japan. Or maybe it's China.)

Tarantino 100% said that Kill Bill's Hattori Hanzo is from the same lineage as the Hattori Hanzo of the old TV series, except he is Hattori Hanzo the hundredth or something. So even if Pai Mei is not the classic Pai Mei, he obviously inherited the title so I'd say we can just scale all his feats. I watched those old movies and honestly, Pai Mei was strongest in Kill Bill. That's the only one where he is definitely a superhuman.

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#43 Posted by ComicGirl21 (991 posts) - - Show Bio

Comic book live action up to a super soldier?

- MCU Captain America

- MCU Black Panther

- MCU Winter Soldier

- DCEU Batman

- Nolan Batman (prime)

- Nolan Bane

- Watchmen Ozymandias

- Blade

- DTG Dragon Wong

- DTG Master Wong

- DTG Shibumi

Probably many others.

Pai Mei's only feat is stomping a young and unexperienced Bride. All of the above characters simply have much better feats.

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#44 Posted by The_Hajduk (5518 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: She wasn't inexperienced. She even told Pai Mei that Bill already trained her and she was an expert in some style.

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#45 Posted by PhoenixTitan (732 posts) - - Show Bio

Image result for the one jet li

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#46 Posted by KingCrimson (4960 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

@rogueshadow: I misremembered. He didn't bullet timed he aim-blocked Bucky's shots. Apologies on that.

Pai Mei's skill is above Cap, but that's the only advantage you've presented him having here. And while skill goes a long way, everything Pai Mei has shown other than 5PPEHT are off-screen and closer to accolades then feats. Things like beating Bil and stomping monks are not exactly quantifiable in the sense you can use them to concretely argue that his skills are enough to alleviate the advantages Cap possesses in all other physical stats (strength, speed, durability).

I don't really remember what wuxia is so please reenlighten me on that.

Lol I forgor Cap was unarmed here. I might just change my answer. But if he can't do it very few live acrion comix characters can, since gear isn't allowed for the most part and physical stats are super soldier level (Cap is like the epitome of MCU super soldiers).

Edit: I think I'll change my answer to X-Men origins standard Deadpool.

I think you're underrating the sheer skill differential though. Wuxia is a genre of chinese martial arts fiction, the characters in them are generally hilariously OP, like in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Iron Monkey. Pai Mei's impossible agility, ability to basically defy gravity and his student being able to defeat dozens of armed swordsmen simultaneously are clear evidence of that.

Cap doesn't have a speed advantage though imo, he has strength and durability, I actually think Pai Mei has faster combat speed, I don't know if I can picture Steve so casually dodging all of Beatrix's attacks, though that could be considered an extension of his skill. If Pai Mei hadn't shown such OP pressure point-mastery, he wouldn't have a chance against Cap, but he has massively superior skill, superior combat speed and the means to potentially drop Cap in a single move. I'm not saying Cap can't win though.

Wade has stats are higher than the MCU super-soldiers.

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#48 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: You bring up good points. I will respond when I get on my computer.

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#49 Edited by HigherPower (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

I think you're underrating the sheer skill differential though. Wuxia is a genre of chinese martial arts fiction, the characters in them are generally hilariously OP, like in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Iron Monkey. Pai Mei's impossible agility, ability to basically defy gravity and his student being able to defeat dozens of armed swordsmen simultaneously are clear evidence of that.

I'm not. I'm just unconvinced that his skill can make up for his other disadvantages. You bring up agility and the defiance of gravity, but when has he ever demonstrated those things (in conjunction with skill) to allow him to defeat people on Caps level? I mean, beating Beatrix and Bill is all fine and dandy, but Steve can beat them too. Though @the_red_viper mentions that Pai Mei's feat of defeating 60 Shaolin Monks happened on-screen, so if you're kind enough to cite/link/post it I can judge for myself whether it changes anything here.

Until then, from where I stand, Pai Mei hasn't done anything that Steve can't replicate, while the same can't be said vice-versa. He lags behind in martial skill, yes, but he doesn't need Pai Mei's level of martial skill to generally outperform him in combat.

Cap doesn't have a speed advantage though imo, he has strength and durability, I actually think Pai Mei has faster combat speed, I don't know if I can picture Steve so casually dodging all of Beatrix's attacks, though that could be considered an extension of his skill.

Depends. How fast would you place attacks from Beatrix?

If Pai Mei hadn't shown such OP pressure point-mastery, he wouldn't have a chance against Cap, but he has massively superior skill, superior combat speed and the means to potentially drop Cap in a single move.

Again, I'd like you to revisit my earlier comment concerning the likeliness of Pai Mei invoking his more OP pressure point techniques against Cap. The Five-Point-Palm-Exploding-Heart-Technique is the main one, and I find it highly improbable that he'd use what was described as the most "deadly blow in martial arts" as an opening move against an opponent he doesn't know anything about in a random encounter. By the time he realizes how dangerous Cap is, Cap will already be breathing down his neck. Even if you prove Pai Mei to be faster, I think it's completely unrealistic to imply Cap won't be able to tag him—and Cap only needs single punches to put him down since Pai is devoid of durability feats to tank his hits without being at least heavily disoriented. All of this would take place before Pai has the chance to use 5PPEHT.

Wade has stats are higher than the MCU super-soldiers.

Really just in speed. What about the newer Fox Deadpool?

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#50 Edited by rogueshadow (28958 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower:Cap isn't replicating the House of Blue Leaves unarmed if at all. I haven't seen the old SB films in ages tbh. But I disagree that it needs to have been onscreen, we've seen what Kill Bill characters can do to massive numbers and Pai Mei is the granddaddy of the KBverse:

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When Bill says he beat 60 Shaolin Monks it means it literally with no b.s., if you're unwilling to accept the feat because it's offscreen then fair enough but it's cut and dry in my opinion.

Cap should be able to eventually tag Pai Mei, but he'd have ample time to realise how strong his opponent is before Steve ever lands a blow (also doubt the 5PPEHT is the only pressure point he knows btw):

Beatrix with a sword, already trained by Bill at this point, couldn't land a single blow on a Pai Mei who was just messing around:

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And it seems Bill couldn't either (Bill being comparable to Beatrix after her training, losing due to the 5PPEHT) since Bill returns from his sparring match with Pai Mei battered and bruised, while Pai Mei is just chilling, calm and untouched moments later.

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