Who can beat Lucifer Morningstar?

It shows that without presence power neither could create their own reality, one reason why Lucifer needed and coverted Michael power to create his multiverse.

He is an energy manipulator and he used that power to create the whole multiverse, which is evidently his best feat.

Not much different from Dr. Strange tanking the big bang aye.

And the instance its referring to.

Gallery

Heck Gah Lak Tus Swarm survive a big bang just as well, so did Galan after being merged with "Eternity".

So you are trying to tell me what Lucifer blitzed Living Tribunal O_o..

Using the power of Micheal.

We also have Alien Entity, a humanoid alien merged with the sentience of universe create all realities.

We have Dormammu merged with eternity do the same thing.

What part here shows a supposedly superiority to LT?

And Death with one attack destroyed Cancerverse, crippled Many Angled Ones and destroyed Galactus Engine which was owning the Celestials.

Gallery

Yeah and Celestials who where clearly losing against the Galactus Engine alone, let alone the bigger and more powerful entities about to come thur from the bleed are apparently multiverse having had a hand in creation of all realities.

Gallery

You are looking at one side of things and ignoring the other.

If you are unsure to what instance i am talking about better to ask then to make your own assumption.

And no i am talking about cosmic cube Beyonder, and the feat is from Cosmic Cube Beyonder and Cosmic Cube Molecule Man, the difference this time is, Molecule Man won, as opposed to Beyonder.

Gallery

Not sure you even read my comment, might i ask you to actually read before commenting.

She destroyed 2 prime universes (who are normally at the center of the their respective multiverses) and everything in between. In between 2 realities, located at the center of 2 multiverses will have countless universes in between.

Then we also have one universe that wasnt even part of either of the multiverse get destroyed just as well, shows how big and wide nemesis wave was, it had to cover at least 2 different multiverse and everything in between.

Not sure how thats universal.

Heck individual gem from the infinity gauntlet, having gained sentinence, where creating entire universes on top of universes there.

I bring in a canon instance and you say its non canon and bring stuffs from non canon instance and then add things that never happened.

The non canon crossover, neither LT nor Spectre created the brothers, and they were both superior to both.

In the canon encounter, Adventues of X men Vol 1 # 12 which is canon for Marvel, although has no connection to DC.

And Megaverse encompasses more than a single multiverse.

Not sure how the feat is supposedly weak when one abstract's power alone was used to re-create entire multiverse.

Gallery

To quote Dormammu and what he did with Etenrity's power alone

"Re-birthing every being and thing in all the universeS in my image"

I am not sure if we have different definition of what a good feat is or if my words aren't clear..

Thats also not the only time something like this has happened, Eternity son , Entrophy, destroyed the multiverse with Genis and re-created it replacing Eternity.

Which also show cases the fact that Lucifer cant simply manipulate whoever he wants, its not like anyone has manipulated Living Tribunal, apart from him actually being defeated in a straight up battle by people absorbing a portion of power of LT own creator.

@killemall:

It shows that without presence power neither could create their own reality, one reason why Lucifer needed and coverted Michael power to create his multiverse.

no. someone once used Michaels power to create an entire realm called the in between city and he does not have access to fullest of the power. and you are forgetting something, not being able to create on a multiversal scale is his only weakness, you are comparing someones weakness to someone else's strength, and still lost.

He is an energy manipulator and he used that power to create the whole multiverse, which is evidently his best feat.Not much different from Dr. Strange tanking the big bang aye.

still, no. an energy manipulator? you think small. energy cannot make realms, can not make time, reality, illusions, dreams, death. he is a manipulator of the dunamis demiurgos, a reality warper with no limits to what he can warp. and the big bang? lol, the big bang is imperiexs power, capable of destroying universes. the dunamis demiurgos is capable of reinforcing reality on a multiversal scale, end of use with a gesture, and completely erasing creation. next to that, imperiex....

So you are trying to tell me what Lucifer blitzed Living Tribunal O_o..

the point is i am trying to show you some feats, he is so fast he can be nigh omnipresent. and why blitz when can destroy?

We also have Alien Entity, a humanoid alien merged with the sentience of universe create all realities.We have Dormammu merged with eternity do the same thing.What part here shows a supposedly superiority to LT.

sooo, they made multiverses? realities...lol, Michael can do that by himself easily, seeing as someone did, and no full access remember? i do not believe that you think reality is the same as a multiverse in which everyone has to obey lucifer, seeing as even destiny can not see clear there.

And Death with one attack destroyed Cancerverse, crippled Many Angled Ones and destroyed Galactus Engine which was owning the Celestials.Yeah and Celestials who where clearly losing against the Galactus Engine alone, let alone the bigger and more powerful entities about to come thur from the bleed are apparently multiverse having had a hand in creation of all realities.

so? is that as good as destroying the word of god? you are comparing a universe with the thing that created the word as a side effect, and that blast did not even scratch michael, who was inside sleeping, so apparently, he can do better. and still you compare reality to multiverse, inside a multiverse, spans infinite realities and universes.

She destroyed 2 prime universes (who are normally at the center of the their respective multiverses) and everything in between. In between 2 realities, located at the center of 2 multiverses will have countless universes in between.

so what? the centre of something compared to the whole, which is bigger i ask?

Then we also have one universe that wasnt even part of either of the multiverse get destroyed just as well, shows how big and wide nemesis wave was, it had to cover at least 2 different multiverse and everything in between.

one universe outside two multiverses, so it is still one universe, again, so what?

Not sure how thats universal.

really.

Heck individual gem from the infinity gauntlet, having gained sentinence, where creating entire universes on top of universes there.

and a bit of dreams power was creating and destroying billions of realities, made into universes.

I bring in a canon instance and you say its non canon and bring stuffs from non canon instance and then add things that never happened.

please stop this. if you can just tell me where did i add? where did i bring? and how is it cannon? that picture is clearly non cannon, seeing as the spectre is equal to LT in that one. i said; do. not. bring. non. cannon. stuff. into. this battle. which includes guide books, seeing as how in the encyclopedia of marvel, it says LTs power is to make suns go nova. good argument on your part. real good.

Which also show cases the fact that Lucifer cant simply manipulate whoever he wants, its not like anyone has manipulated Living Tribunal, apart from him actually being defeated in a straight up battle by people absorbing a portion of power of LT owncreator.

what? did you even read?

and lastly, please compare feats before posting. all realties compared to a multiverse outside creation that even someone like TOAA has no say on. compare

Great Evil Beast

The Living Tribunal

Spectre (without the interference of Logoz as in Hals series IIRC it stated when Spectre falls short it is usually down to it being against the wishes of Logoz (the presence) without it he may have a chance as he's only been beaten by Michael because he used "the word" (Logoz) so it should make it a more even fight.

There are a couple more but ill put two

Pre retcon beyonder

And possibly pre retcon molecule but unsure

You are talking about creating a universe? Every cosmic cube can create a universe, Franklin has done the same just as well.

We are talking on LT level.

Thats not what i am comparing, i am comparing his feats and how it stacks up with marvel powerhouses. His best feat have him operating at multiversal level at best, with help.

That not even remotely on the scale LT operates.

What are you talking about.

I am saying he is an energy manipulator, thats one of his power, so him being able to survive a supposedly multiversal creating power is well within his limits.

Pretty sure i could name at least 5 such beings from marvel, again the question was simply, what have you shown to suggest he operates on the same level as LT, let alone above?

Not sure what your complain is, big bang from Dr. Strange point of view, a comparable feat to Lucifer surviving the Michael's power because everything was created from the big bang.

Still dont like it, lets go towards another example then, this time its Genis Vell, using his entrophy gun, causing a big bang that re-created the whole multiverse and he was point blank.

Gallery

Why would you even bring up feats about speed is what i am wondering. Every abstract has the ability to be omnipresent, at least within his universe if he so wished.

And guys like Surfer has matched feats like the one you are saying.

Speed isnt going to be a factor at all, when we are talking about beings that live apart from space, time , reality and dream.

Could you post me a scan, coz you went from a universe to multiverse here.

And i am not sure i understand, the difference between Eternity and LT is significantly bigger than the difference between Lucifer and Michael, how does Michael being able to do what Eternity can, somehow show a superiority of Lucifer over LT?

I have no idea what you are saying here, its clearly on panel said, every universeS, how isnt that at the very least multiversal?

Based on what you have said thus far, yes.

An abstract destroyed a universe (which was a minor thing) and her power defeated Many Angled Ones and defeated Celestial (and a smaller group of Celestials had a hand in created the whole multiverse)

Not sure what all the complains is, i have only brought foward a feat that is multiversal.

We also saw Celestial break the universe into multiverse, with very little trouble, then go on to seal monsters and create death seed evidently without stopping and extering themselves.

So yeah the same applies for Celestials what you are applying for Michael, why look only at one thing?

Again no idea what you are saying, she destroyed the center of 2 multiverses and everything in between. 2 multiverse that arent even joined by each other, from one center to another, will obviously have countless universes there.

The blast had to go from ultraverse (center of malibu universe) to at the very least 616 reality (center of prime multiverse) passing thru countless realities in between, destroying everything and later recreating, all done within a blink of an eye.

Not sure why you are so intent on replying to his and above part seperate when its part of the same feat.

My point was, the creation wave, called Nemesis wave, travelled from 1 center of the multiverse to another center of a different multiverse destroying then recreating everything in between.

Why is that impressive , because you have to at the very least travel thur the length of at least a multiverse to reach there.

And note the two multiverse werent even joined, so one universe which was outside the 2 was also destroying in the process and rebuilt.

Now you see what i am saying.

A wave moving from a center of one multiverse to another, destroying everything in between, within a blink of an eye, performed by a being whose power is confirmed to be below LT.

And the side effect of 2 cosmic cube beings were destroying reality on a transmultiversal scale when there are infinite number of universes with a marvel multiverses.

Even turning entire universes upside down, without either of them wanting to do so, it was just side effect of the amount of energy the 2 of them were unleashing.

You said LT and Spectre together fashioned the twin brother, which never happened.

And Spectre has absolutely nothing to do with Adventures of X-men # 12, he is a DC character he neither appears nor is mention in the issue coz marvel down own the right to Spectre.

Its printed on a canon book, Adventues of X-men, and backed by a canon bio as actually happening to LT.

Can you please stop for a second and actually read to what i am saying.

The instance you are talking about is non - canon, where Spectre and LT faced the brother.

The instance I am talking about is different, from a different book, where Spectre neither exists nor is ever mentioned.

Its a purely marvel book, Adventures of X men, which revolves around Dweller in Darkness planing to blow up the M'kraan Crystal to destroy his multiverse and thinking about how the most powerful being, LT would deal with him.

Can you please at least read before complaning.

Nothing here is non canon.

Handbook are and always have been official publication and are secondary source of information. Thats why its called Official handbook of the marvel universe.

I have no idea when people make assertions like that. Official Marvel Handbook 1992 while talking about LT power says he is capable of making sun go nova, thats one of his powers not all his power.

LT was orginally just created as a normal cosmic character, albiet more powerful, and was more or less shown as being on same league with Eternity. Thats why the famous, out of context, Dr. Strange vs LT scans floats around a lot, or LT vs Nebula.

It was after guardians of the Galaxy, during 1998 LT was re-invented as being the second most powerful being in all reality and second only to TOAA, and his power level from there on has never waivered.

Not even going to respond to this, as i have no clue what you are talking about here nor do i see how this has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

You are talking about creating a universe? Every cosmic cube can create a universe, Franklin has done the same just as well

good thing i am not then, read my post again.

Thats not what i am comparing, i am comparing his feats and how it stacks up with marvel powerhouses. His best feat have him operating at multiversal level at best, with help.

That not even remotely on the scale LT operates

that is exactly what you are comparing. and you still do not understand my post. first, that is not his best feat, that is his best feat in his worst department, and that is not with help, where did you get that idea? he made an infinite multiverse that is an extension of his will, which is infinite. and help? he only manipulated an infinite amount of the demiurgic power which is used to create matter, and much more. and that creation is outside creation, which is outside the control of the presence, who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent in creation. if you count his best feat, it should be destroying the logos, the voice, without using his full power. the voice is an aspect of god, which is > LT.

What are you talking about.

I am saying he is an energy manipulator, thats one of his power, so him being able to survive a supposedly multiversal creating power is well within his limits.

i have no idea why you do not understand. do you mean to say that an energy manipualtor can survive that blast? then you are sadly mistaken. this is ridiculous, saying an energy manipulator can survive that! i mean, really. the dunamis demiurgos is the basic bulding block of everything that exists. it is way smaller than mere energy. and he tanked an infinite amount of the stuff used to make everything you know, even, yes...energy.

name them then, name someone who can alter reality infinitely, manipulate dreams, wishes, energy, magic, time, space all in a multiversal scale, tank a creation erasing blast, be so fast he is nigh omnipresent, and best of all; destroy an aspect of the presence, the voice who sang creation into being, and as a side effect created the decorator, and the word, with but one blast that only annoyed michael, easily.

just name one being who can do that, then i will continue or i fear you will just go around the question, like above.

oh, another thing, the marvel handbook only said that, and nothing else, and here you say that is only one of his powers when clearly they did not mention any other, if you accept what guidebooks say, then accept that as well. official. what a joke. if it is, why not list everything?

@killemall: and if you are talking about a different one, why put that picture and not the right one? the one you posted is obviously of the spectre, hooded ally, huh? obviously, you are clutching at straws

You did say realm.

How as i to know what it was.

And can you at least post scans of the incident, i am still confused at what you are saying.

I am not talking about him creating the multiverse, as per his durability being able to survive a multiversal blast was his best feat.

Which is different from any other multiverse, or the multiverse created by Entrophy? How exactly?

Multiverse is multiverse, its by defination trans-finite, infinite number of individually infinite universes.

Entrophy, an abstract being has done that, we are talking about LT here.

That is because Lucifer himself went to Presence to ask for a letter of passage, so he could travel outside of creation to create his own universe. Without the letter of passage he was unable to leave the universe.

Presence was the one who granted the passage, which stands to reason he could just as well come to his multiverse.

Then prove the underlined part.

Prove the Voice is somehow more powerful than LT apart from just because you think so.

If it was gods own power, Lucifer could do nothing to it, as you were shown what happened to Titans who has a portion of Yahweh own power and Lucifer and Michael found themselves helpless.

I stopped reading here because its obvious we are seeing the feat from 2 different aspect. I thought the impressive thing you are trying to tell me of the controlled detonation was Lucifer tanked it without a scratch.

Scarlet Witch with a big enough power source , ever cosmic cube being (Kubik, Kosmos, Molecule Man, Beyonder etc), Mad James Jasper etc.

Any telepaths can, and any being capable of manipulating Nightmare's realm, of which they are plenty.

Any cosmic cube being and Eternity.

Apart from writing on bold, big letters and making self made claim, how about you present some evidence suggesting aspect of presence is too big for anyone to destroy.

Isnt source considered an aspect of Presence, Darkseid with Soul Fire was beating it, so did 3 skyfathers.

My god now you have began to outright lie about it?

Here lets see.

The bio Living Tribunal ever appeared in , Marvel Handbook 1983

Where does it even remotely imply that casuing Stars go supernova is his only powers.

Living Tribunal's second bio 1986

His third bio, 1993

Gallery

And his bio in 2006

Gallery

So point me to which bio only says LT can make a sun go nova and doesnt talk anything about his other powers?

I mean come on, lets not start being outright dishonest.

And the reason why that was mentioned was because of a very old and very lousy What IF, where thats what LT does, he makes the sun go nova , fails to harm Korvac and seals the universe.

Gallery

I have no idea why you are making lousy excuses but yeah to each his own.

Again for the 3rd time i am not talking about crossover, i am talking about a scan from Adventures of X men # 12.

As per Hooded Ally, it was likely a nod to spectre, but given its an official publication and not a non-canon crossover, they cant name him and they never name him in the story.

The bio perfectly backs it as something happening to LT, and thats exactly what canon is, you can google to term "canon" if you like.

DC

Presence

GEB ( Great Evil Beast )

Michael the Angel

Fully backed by the presence Spectre

Image

MOM ( Man of Miracles )

God Spawn

Marvel

TOAA

Living Tribunal

Full Powered Galactus

Cosmic entities

Franklin Richards

The Celestials

PR Beyonder

PR Molecule Man

Oh also anybody with HOTU or Infinity Gauntlet and I forgot that stupid elf Mxy.

I am not talking about him creating the multiverse, as per his durability being able to survive a multiversal blast was his best feat.

still you do not read my post, this is beginning to get tiring. i will allow you as much time you need to read a simple sentence that describes stuff, from now on, i will use words you even you, well, might, understand.

Prove the Voice is somehow more powerful than LT apart from just because you thinkso.

it seems that you are beginning to get unreasonable. let me show you then.

I stopped reading here because its obvious we are seeing the feat from 2 different aspect. I thought the impressive thing you are trying to tell me of the controlled detonation was Lucifer tanked it without a scratch.

you stopped reading right? well, that partially explains your lack of the ability to understand, which brings us to our next sentence.

Scarlet Witch with a big enough power source , ever cosmic cube being (Kubik, Kosmos, Molecule Man, Beyonder etc), Mad James Jasper etc.

Any telepaths can, and any being capable of manipulating Nightmare's realm, of which they are plenty.

Any cosmic cube being and Eternity.

as any man, woman, or child can understand, i was talking about being able to do all in one person. this is like me listing superman, then you retaliating by bringing up a bunch of guys who combined can do that. your lack of understanding is certainly astonishing to the extreme. but the next sentence shows just how blissfully ignorant you are about DC.

Apart from writing on bold, big letters and making self made claim, how about you present some evidence suggesting aspect of presence is too big for anyone to destroy

if you really want to know why i wrote like that, it is because words meant for normal reading you seem to not understand, and skip. even now, you comment on my use of words instead of my meaning.

Isnt source considered an aspect of Presence, Darkseid with Soul Fire was beating it, so did 3skyfathers.

no, the source is not an aspect of the presence, and if you know even a little about DC, you will know that darkseid was connected to the source, became his equal, and commented on how omnipotent, and omniscient he became, and because he was in nature more savage than the peaceful source, he won. and did you not know that the sky fathers astounded the source by splitting him? how he was taken by surprise? kind of like how they made tiamut retreat.

My god now you have began to outright lie about it?

Here lets see.

The bio Living Tribunal ever appeared in , Marvel Handbook1983

now, this is a misunderstanding. you are talking about one that was published in the 80s, i was talking about the most recent one, just go to any bookstore, and ask for the marvel encyclopedia, a to z.

So point me to which bio only says LT can make a sun go nova and doesnt talk anything about his other powers?

I mean come on, lets not start being outright dishonest.

And the reason why that was mentioned was because of a very old and very lousy What IF, where thats what LT does, he makes the sun go nova , fails to harm Korvac and seals the universe.

I have no idea why you are making lousy excuses but yeah to each his own.

please stop accusing and insulting people, as i said, please put such trivial things beneath you. just because i quoted from the newest source, a source you most likely do not know about, does not make someone a lier. if you call everyone who knows something you do not know a lier, then everyone you have ever met and will meet will be stung by your mouth.

Are you talking to me?

@killemall: and if you do not know, we use feats here at comic vine, not wikis and guidebooks

I love wiki's!

Flash. Steals his speed, then delivers countless IMPs, phases Lucy's brain out of his head, then dimension dumping Lucy in the Speed Force.

@killemall: it seems like we both will not give up, and things are starting to get heated. how about we just stop, and lave it to another generation? or do you want to continue debating because if you still want to, then i will. and it will become pointless... or just grab a coffee, relax, and go to some other threads.

Again with rubbish stuffs, i have give you bucket loads of feats, when you asked for a canonity of it, i sighted a official handbook to suggest its canon.

Bio are perfectly admissible for evidence, unless you can show me something official suggesting otherwise.

I am ok with leaving it as it is, the feats , the scans are already there for everyone to see.

@killemall: I tried arguing with Baron, it's useless. Anyway, could you tell me what issue is the Dr Strange scan from (the one which references the Sise-Neg story)? im curious to know.

I can beat Lucifer! *rips shirt off revealing endless jelly rolls and create an endless vortex in the space-time continuum and destroys all*

The Archangel Michael can beat him!

The Great Evil Beast.

@rolldestroyer: even though i countered everything you posted, you still are this stubborn.... even though you and killemall are on the same side, you provided nothing. like an alt though i doubt his alt would be this useless. after we have finished debating, you show up.

@rolldestroyer: Strange Vol 2 # 3 (2010), it was a mini story arc that ran during the time.

@laughingstock said:

Jesus and Tim Tebow

I'm one of those people that actually consider Michael and Lucifer to be > than LT, and fully and absolutely disregard the assumption that because the Presence knows he's in a comic and that writers made him, it somehow makes him "weaker" that other omnipotents (such a dang stupid argument).

That said, aside from non-omnipotents, like the Presence, One-Above-All, Man of Miracles, etc., I can only see Michael as really being strong enough to take him, considering he already had beaten him before.

Ellaine Belloc

Pre Retcon Beyonder

The Presence

Great Evil Beast

@jwwprod said:

-_-

i feel like slapping you super hard right now......

@beyondergod said:

@jwwprod said:

-_-

i feel like slapping you super hard right now......

Why?

Pre-retcon Beyonder
Michael Demiurgos
Living Tribunal (i don't believe he could pull it of but there's a chance)
Eru Illuvitar
SA superman

Squirrel Girl and Bugs Bunny.

LMAO!!!

XD LMAO

toon force too good

@datswampertazz: Toon Force > Reality Warping.

RW>TF

@beyondergod: nope. toon force is much more powerful in gerernal, bugs bunny, who is the most powerful toon force user, once was the writer, and no one can beat that.

but if i were to choose, both are equally powerful, but toon force has the potential to go beyond any limit

and who can beat lucifer.....the source

I really can't think of someone who could defeat Bugs Bunny, I don't think even omnipotents would be able to.

I can see even pre-retcon Beyonder being defeated, by both Bugs AND Lucifer.

@lucano: bugs is the true omnipotent lol.

and yeah, lucifer can defeat pre B, but only with his intellect, his power level is not enough

@cold_day: Yeah, I mean, Lucifer is leagues above Pre-retcon Beyonder when it comes to intellect. Beyonder is kind of... Huh... dim witted. Lucifer really doesn't need to use his vast reality warping to humble many uber-powerful foes. He does through deceit, manipulation and strategy, which makes him way more dangerous than any other high end reality warper. He has incredible raw power, maybe not as much as others, but still a power-house, but added to that he is a prep-master and a master manipulator.

And about Bugs, yeah, he is the true omnipotent xD

@beyondergod: @datswampertazz: Just making sure both of you knew that was a joke, right?

@darkseid1006 said:

Hahaaaaaa... funny, SA Supes gets convinced to kill himself...

idk man...people swear up and down that SA Superman could beat anybody due to "PIS powers"

DC: The Great Evil Beast, The Presence, Elaine Belloc, Michael Demiurgos.

Marvel: The One Above All, Pre Retcon Beyonder, Living Tribunal, Thanos ( Heart of the Universe), Protège, The Fulcrum.

^This guy: Lelouch vi Britannia

Batman and Goku