Who can beat Jean Grey in 1) Telekinesis 2) Telepathy in Marvel

Who can beat Jean Grey (NO PHOENIX) IN 1) Telekinesis and 2) Telepathy, from the marvel universe? (excluding deities, and for TP, Moondragon)

X-man would be one for sure.

For TK I would say - Nate Grey - Shaman or Regular, Rachel Grey, Providence Cable and Exodus

For TP: Professor X, Exodus, Shadow King. I don't recall Shaman Nate's TP feats atm but I'm pretty sure he would take it

some of these are debatable though

Apocalypse

OK not Marvel, but I propose Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear series. He mind controlled Meryl easy, and in the comics, he mindF'ed Gray Fox. Will power seems to be the main thing in resisting these types of attacks, so who are the most notable characters that Jean has been able to control?

Yes...Also:

X-man/Cable/Stryfe

Hope

Onslaught

...

@harbingerofmomz: Telekinesis maybe, but not telepathy. Jean is way more skilled than Nate and skill in the Marvel Universe trumps power.

@marvelfan1992: Professor X is debatable. Even if Xavier is counted as more skilled than Jean, which by this point is debatable since she has pulled off feats he could never dream of, Jean still is close enough in skill to where it would come down to power and Jean sports more power than Xavier.

Exodus can’t beat a Jean Grey fully prepared for a fight and no holding back.

Shadow King is as debatable as Xavier.

Shaman Nate Grey sports in power, not skill in regards to telepathy.

@the_hajduk: Has Psycho Mantis ever faced a telepath before, let alone one of Jeans caliber?

@last0fth3risen: Good match up, and highly debatable.

What makes them noteworthy in the slightest? And Jean has TP'd the Classic Hulk back into Banner, and Hulk has the telepathic resistance to fight off Xemnu.

He faced The Sorrow... but lost.

What makes Meryl and Gray Fox, two of the main characters in the Metal Gear series, notable in the slightest. Hmm, not sure, let me think.

What are her feats?

@cosmic_reign: X-Man and Cable fall under the category of lacking proper skill in the telepathic category. Strife is debatable and one I would have to look into.

Onslaught is a good one, though still debatable since the time he did beat Jean was a time she held back her power, which even hen she got some good hits on him. Needless to say, he hasn’t been taken down really, so he could simply be unmatched.

I’d choose maybe Thanos. (As debatable as he is and one I’m still unsure of)

Amora Enchantress might be a good match up.

Selene Gallup amped could give Jean a run.

My final choice is Madelyne Pryor.

Telekinesis wise, X Man is one of the best dudes around for that, could do better than her

Telepathy? That's harder. Shadow King is one, Quentin Quire is close (was able to hold back Red Onslaught's hate ability for a long time) If this was not just Marvel, I would say a person that has better TP is Martian Manhunter. Perhaps a equal to her is Xavier.

To answer your question, @the_hajduk, there is not much on her controlling people in particular, but she was able to break the mental defences of Magneto WITH the helmet on, creating a illusion that lasted a issue worth of content, with him being none the wiser until the near end. A equal of that was forcing Apocalypse's mind out of Cyclops, who the latter is a fairly good telepath himself.

Thanks for the info. I think that putting somebody in an illusion is a lot different from what Mantis did, it should actually be pretty easy if Mags had no way of even realizing it in order to fight back. Going through the helmet is another matter, I thought the entire point of the helmet was that telepaths can't get through. What does this mean if Jean can get through?
The Apoc feat is quite impressive.

Being the main characters of a franchise doesn't mean they have any notable TP resistance obviously. Izuku and Toshinora are two of the main characters in MHA, yet they have no TP resistance at all.

So I will ask again, what makes them noteworthy in the slightest to someone who has shown herself to easily be above the likes of Emma Frost in TP? Or knock out Cable with her subconscious mind?

I don't know about your obscure animes, but Gray Fox denied mind control before when he was a kid. Years in a culture tank created by the CIA to control him, on top of Gene's control. Keep in mind, Gene can easily talk people into killing themselves. He tried to order Gray Fox and Gray Fox just said no way.

Why eliminate Moondragon? I think Jean could beat her.

Whats the heaviest or largest object that Jean has lifted?

Magneto has held up an island and grabbed a metal missile from light years away. He may beat her in TK.

@the_hajduk: Usually objects that are "Telepathic proof" usually are not completely safe, they just provide the maximum protection to the user.

Case and point Juggernaut's helmet being bypassed two times, both by Jean, and the first time being so violent and strong that he thought it was Xavier returned (he was dead at the time)

http://i.imgur.com/YEdQMS1.jpg ( scans not available on mobile)

Lol, well Jean has plenty of planetary TP feats and has stomped Emma Frost who was capable of sending a message to the entire mutant population with her TP. If Mantis doesn't have feats like that then she isn't close to Jean at all.

Thanks for the info.

He mind controlled a whole army of super soldiers. That's not a lot of people compared to a planet, but mind control is a whole different game from just communication, and Mantis had no trouble doing it. He was casually controlling them all in the back of his mind without really needing to think about it during the course of the game.

Wow, I go to sleep and wake up seeing someone say Quentin can beat Jean grey, when he can't come close to Rachel grey or Emma frost.

Telepathy: Cassandra Nova, Shaman Nate grey, Shadow King, Onslaught. I rank Xavier as equal to Jean, but I'll add them. Emma, Rachel and Psylocke would be easily beaten by Jean.

Exodus only fought Jean in the early 90s when she was scared of her power and holding back (after Ozt she stopped holding back and started getting impressive feats), right now, he has been Stalemated by Rachel and Emma on different occasions, so I'd rank him lower than Jean.

Telekinesis : when it comes to lifting things and wide scale use of telekinesis, Nate grey, Savior Cable are better than Jean. Both Jean and Rachel have maxed out at lifting falling cities. On the other hand, all of them have sub-atomic feats, controlling atoms to transmute or even make black holes. Apocalypse... I wouldn't really rank him higher than Jean in telekinesis, he hasn't really lifted anything impressive. Not sure where to rank Stryfe because no one cares about him or Madelyne

Xemnu mind controlled the entire population of earth back in marvel feature(1971) issue 3

And yet hulk resisted his TP.

@the_hajduk: Emma frost has defeated an army of skrull Telepaths that had copied Xavier, Jean and emmas powers and we're amped by Cerebra, she's also defeated 1000 Cuckoos who are clones of her. Yet Jean always beats Emma in their encounters, even when Emma has the Phoenix force and Jean is a psychic ghost.

Jean has sent Gamemaster, a omnipath (connected to all the minds of Earth at all times, able to mind control and brainwash a city) running from fear, he had to drug her before he attacked the Xmen because he was scared of her interference.

Jean has fought onslaught,, and while she lost, he wasn't able to get past her mental defenses and she shielded the Xmen from his control during the final battle.

Plus Jean can create psychic projections around the planet, constructs strong enough to fight different teams of X-men and give Telepaths like Rachel and Cable psychic trauma when they came in contact with the projections (only Emma frost was able to trace them to Alaska where Jean was).

Telekinesis - Nate Grey

Telepathy - Cassandra Nova

Well in Nate's case, his psionic abilities are more comparable to the PF itself. I get the "skill over power" thing, but only to an extent. I mean, can Jean battle someone like Nate/Cable/Stryfe telepathically and not be forced to tap/summon or instigate the PF?

Onslaught was definately more experienced/skilled, but Jean did hold her own.

@cosmic_reign: Only if she tries to go full force only, in conjunction to say getting around Nate’s attacks. Nate lacking the necessary skill leaves him open for sneak attacks that skilled telepaths of Emma’s caliber tend to take advantage of. An example comes in the form of most of Rachel’s losses. Emma vs Rachel and in more recent times, I must begrudgingly say, Mesmero vs Rachel Summers who has been less apprehensive in holding back her power.

I’d say so for Onslaught at the time. Around at least Morrisons run, if not the Revolution era, Jean started showing levels of power and skill that were comparable to her Phoenix variant, which always raises the question of where she ranks. If I were honest, the skill category is debatable for Jean vs Xavier, but she surpasses him in power which is why most nowadays will back Jean. With Onslaught having a piece of Franklin Richards powers, that leaves it up in the air on who would win between modern Jean and Onslaught.

Totally agree...

Regarding Onslaught, there was a short period of time when Onslaught had FR captured but was still unable to tap into his power...at that point Jean was a match for him.(IIRC)

Btw, Nate is always hard to debate for and/or even against considering he's an inexperienced teen(maybe a bit older), but with powers on a cosmic level.

X-Man is indeed a powerful telepath. I'm sure he could hang with Jean, if not outright beat her.

@batvibe12: I dunno if i’d Still put Cassandra above Jean in TP considering in x-men red Cassandra is avoiding any confrontation with Jean and was revealed to be afraid of Jean

@marvelfan1992: I think we should wait for a direct confrontation between the two of them. Cassandra loves playing games and messing with people emotionally, which could be why she's using storm against Jean. It doesn't necessarily mean Jean is stronger than her now.

In her first appearance, she easily got past the defenses of Xavier amped x10 by cere bree, making him want to kill himself, she set a trap in her mind for Jean that had Jean foaming at the mouth and was controlling Emma in whedons run.

It took Jean and Xavier working together to beat her, And they were both on the same level with Jean accessing her full power, I doubt if Jean has grown so much stronger that Cassandra can't take her in a fight.

@cosmic_reign: Can’t blame ya either. Nate is a popular choice amongst the battle forums for his power output. Very few realize that he is still quite inexperienced.

Probably Nate Grey, but I'm not so sure. His inexperience would kill him in a battle against Jean, though.

If that's the case, I'll probably say Nate Grey.

Nate Grey, Stryfe, Cable

Bump In preparation for A.X.E: Judgment Day. I am gonna review my previous comment as far as Telepathy went…..

1) Hard nope on Thanos. I went on hype and was uncertain about his abilities. Now, while it wouldn’t be easy, there is some argument that Jean could beat Thanos.

2) Amora the Enchantress is a harder Nope. She can block Jean, but a straight telepathic battle is a different thing from blocking telepathy.

3) Not technically wrong in theory, but we have not seen Selene reach a level telepathically comparable to Jean to know how powerful that would be.

4) Madelyne Pryor is a no, unless she is tapping into Pre-Shaman Nate Grey’s energies. Then it gets more complicated, but could still end with Jean winning because of a skill difference.

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As far as current mindset, without god-tiers beyond Savior Cable, Onslaught, and Lifeseed Nate Grey:

Telekinesis: Pre-Shaman Nate Grey(and above), Rachel Summers, Savior Cable (or any Cable without his restraints), Onslaught, and Exodus.

Telepathy: Charles Xavier (I still lean Jean, but there are scenario’s he would win in), Emma Frost (in very certain situations if she is sneaking in), Onslaught, Lifeseed Nate Grey, Savior Cable, and Betsy (with her psi-knife specifically).

@pyrofn: lol, and what if Jean jobs in judgment day?

Anyway what are you expecting her to showcase?

Telepathy?

Telekinesis?

Pink mode?

I'm thinking telepathy. Marvel doesn't really like Jean doing major stuff with tk

1) “what if Jean jobs in judgment day?”

We will have to start re-evaluating the Eternal’s place on the tier list. (Probably gonna happen anyway, but merely taking on a high tier telepath, let alone winning, would be a huge thing for them)

As for Jean, *sigh*.

2) “what are you expecting her to showcase?”

I think both telepathy and telekinesis. Nothing on Exodus’ level, but I am assuming she will be shielding against the physical hitters.

I would be delighted if we were to get more than that, but I am not expecting as much. Needless to say, Jean has come a long way since this thread was made, so her capabilities and learning more in-depth on our telepaths have changed my opinion somewhat.

Jean loses in TK to really any half decent psi-character. She's not remarkable on that front.

She loses in TP (not stomped, just a majority) to a all-out Xavier, Savior Cable, Shaman Nate, Galactus, Stranger and any half-decent cosmic. She has a very strong balance of skill which can counterbalance power......to a extent until it becomes overwhelming.

1) “Jean loses in TK to really any half decent psi-character”

That is a pretty big low-ball for a character capable of throwing something that at least measures to a skyscraper sized object into space or launch a person across an entire country casually.

She is not the best, but she is above average.

2) “She loses in TP Shaman Nate”

How exactly? His skill feats are still rather mediocre comparatively to most high tiers and telepathic power does not hold a big enough gap to pull a win from what I can tell.

I would argue that at least the top half of high tiers can usually win with moderate difficulty against Shaman Nate.

3) “She loses in TP to Galactus, Stranger and any half-decent cosmic.“

I am pretty certain most planet-based telepaths lose to most cosmic beings. Then again, do most cosmic entities just lack in telepathic showings for this to be notable enough? I would have figured that if you were a cosmic being, unless you were like just introduced recently, you would be assumed to have a level of power capable of just overwhelming any planet-based psychic.