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Avatar image for thedeathstar
#51 Posted by TheDeathstar (4161 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Take your wank somewhere else. He is not even Universal.

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#52 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar: TLDR it is then...

CCC Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh cannot be compared to his planet level Fate counterpart, as Extraverse works entirely different. CCC Gilgamesh is at least multiversal. He defeated BB, who became a higher dimensional being that fused with a device that simulates and physically stores infinite possible futures. BB is also able to destroy reality after fusing with the Moon Cell and has shown to do so. Even Hakuno is capable of reshaping reality when fusing with the Moon Cell.

https://s9.postimg.cc/6dn1vbg4f/Untitled2.png

https://s9.postimg.cc/wcmtp68vz/Untitled3.png

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"Rani :: The Holy Grail is an observational device that simulates the future of the Earth, and stores those records continuously, at regular intervals. It has been doing so since the beginning of human history. Though it is supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon. To obtain the Moon Cell means to be able to search out the future you wish for from among all of those, and put it into effect." < < < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/entry-141-ellipsis/

We learn from Twice Piecemen in Fate/Extra (the game before Fate/Extra CCC) that the futures that Rani speak of are indeed infinite. Also simulating and storing infinite possibilities ALONE is storing infinite different outcomes, which is what timelines are, infinite different outcomes. Not only that, but storing something that is infinite is infinite, period. The Moon Cell has complete rule over it's domain/reality, meaning it can easily erase said infinite physically stored futures as easy as it simulates and stores them. BB fusing with the Moon Cell completely means she also has this power; so BB can create and erase something of infinite size. These possibilities also exist because the Moon Cell not only simulates, but stores them, making these possibilities exist to some degree like timelines, since they can be stored as if they exist. Even if you say they aren't similar to timelines, storing something of infinite size is infinite (as I said before). There are also actual timelines in the Moon Cell as well.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/3/39/BBCCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160210191518

^^^^^

"Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.)

An attack on the world by BB in control of the Moon Cell.

Also called the spirit particle imaginary pit.

A world purge by means of event rewriting, making maximum use of the EX skill “Potnia Theron” BB had acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of the earth goddesses who created the earth is, in other words, the “root” that created all creation.

This Noble Phantasm is an anti-world Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3d printer and crushes the present world with the world desired by the user.

The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. CCC as the name suggests is a cursed pit that bores out reality.

In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of writing over and rewriting information of fields such as luck and coincidence.

While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravity fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

When used in combat, BB’s familiars, the shapeshifters engulf the target, and after turning into a sphere, is wiped out of existence along with the target and the dimension with it."

Calling CCC planet level because it's called "Anti World" is vastly out of context.

The Moon Cell can create 8D structures and 5D realms where lower dimensional beings can't even exist in. To further back up that Nasuverse higher dimensions are completely above lower is the fact that higher dimensional constructs cannot be damaged by lower (such as Saber's 6D Avalon). The Moon Cell and BB (both are 8D) completely failed in all attempts to kill Gilgamesh; Gilgamesh broke the laws and concepts of the Moon Cell, and also one shotted BB.

To access the Moon Cell's core so she can fuse with it, BB stated she had to get past a barrier that cut throught 8 dimensions.

"BB :: However…The Moon Cell is, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It’s a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it’ll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I’ll have reached my goal. So I’ve left all of you in Meltlilith’s care." < < < https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/entry-129-we-need-to-focus-guys-no-really/

This means the Moon Cell can create constructs that can exist on an 8 dimensional level if it can cut through 8 dimensions; this at bare minimum means BB can create 8D constructs, which in turn can mean her attacks and Cursed Cutting Crater could potentially be 8D (as base BB stated she can break the wall into pieces). Best case scenario, BB is 100% 8D , worst case is she is only 5D, but can manipulate and create 8D constructs, along with 8D attacks and 8D Cursed Cutting Crater (since she is capable of destroying the wall in base). She destroyed 4D space and survived, so she is at least 5D. Logically, she is 8D, as the Moon Cell's core should be 8D fully, as it can create 8D constructs. The fact that Gilgamesh can tank her 8D attacks and one shot her puts him at the same level as well. The Moon Cell itself being powerless against Gilgamesh also backs this up.

Gilgamesh can also move inside the Far Side, which is a higher dimensional realm where time itself doesn't work properly and no living being is able to survive in it. He also defeated BB, who is omnipresent and not bound by time. This makes Gilgamesh (contrary to popular belief) faster than time itself, not MFTL. The feat of him getting back from 1,500 light years was more than just distance; Kiara threw Gilgamesh into conceptual space and it shows a beam of light come across the screen and he is back. His speed would also have to be beyond time because BB's existence encompasses the entire Moon Cell and is above time itself, as she can look down upon the past present, and future all at once, and can interact with each point in time as she pleases. Base BB (before fusing with the Moon Cell) could put herself in unlimited time even, meaning even BASE BB isn't properly bound by time. Gilgamesh would get blitzed by BB if he was simply MFTL.

Gilgamesh in Far Side> "There also exists the Far Side of the Moon (月の裏側, Tsuki no Uragawa?), an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the “exterior of the world”, and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned.[7] Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there."

"Due to BB surfacing and gaining power as an Advanced A.I., she begins an extensive reconstruction and periods of resetting to work towards her goals. This allows for someone to contact Gilgamesh even when it should be impossible. The end result of her work is Cursed Cutting Crater, a real space in the present, past, and future. Establishing it as a "place", even Masters can exist there. It is not possible to hack the Moon Cell however much time is spent, but she is able to take control of it by placing herself in “unlimited time” through the power of the primordial goddesses she has taken into herself"

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Cell#Far_Side

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/entry-143-why-we-cant-win/ < Rin speaking about omnipresent BB.

^ Rin also says BB has a higher dimensional existence, not just perspective. "Think of it as a higher dimensional existence." Base BB before fusing with the Moon Cell can live in and effect the Far Side (this debunk is meant for Vsbattles fans who think BB is not higher dimensional).

Gilgamesh also can destroy the Moon Cell's reality marble (although the Moon Cell is capable of bringing it back briefly after) via the spinning of Ea alone. The Moon Cell's reality marble acts like a normal reality, despite it being virtual. The reality marble contains the Far Side, the Near Side, and one to four infinite sized areas, those being where the Moon Cell stores infinite futures, then actual timelines, an infinite sized higher dimensional space between the seventh layer and the core, and the Infinite Chimeric Lunar Sea.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/1/11/EACCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150831154656 < Gilgamesh destroying the Moon Cell reality marble. Stomping Moon Cell BB also backs up his power.

Also BASE form BB and Gilgamesh are universal.

Gilgamesh :: Until the end of the universe? How generous of you. Then will you end the universe if she refuses? It wouldn’t be very balanced otherwise, would it?

Gilgamesh turns BB’s words against her provocatively. …if that’s any indication, he’s ready to shoot down BB on the spot. Looking at me and Gilgamesh like this,

BB :: Of course I will end it. If Hakuno Kishinami does not sever her contract with Gilgamesh, I will bring down all electrical power.

She’s saying she’ll destroy the universe. The girl in black announces it, not as a bluff or a metaphor, but as if it were natural.

Gilgamesh :: — Oh? You may have gone out of control, but you’re still a managerial AI. Aren’t you unable to kill Masters?

BB :: I do not presently have the right to kill Masters, but it is possible for me to make this sector collapse. I can end all of you and myself as well if necessary. This is the worst and final measure. I am prepared for complaints from all intelligent life in the solar system. Miss Hakuno Kishinami. I will propose it again. Please sever your contract with this Servant.

Gilgamesh :: So it seems, Hakuno. What will you do? I don’t care either way.

This has gotten ridiculous. BB threatening me into cutting my contract with Gilgamesh, saying she’ll “end everything” if I don’t obey. Of course I don’t know if that’s true or not. BB has corroded the far side of the Moon Cell and consumed many Servants, but even she isn’t that powerful…I’d like to think.

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/entry-78-contract-negotiations-with-bb-and-gilgamesh/

Notice base Gilgamesh isn't even remotely impressed at universe busting, also notice that the universe is referred to as a sector in the Moon Cell; so a random sector in the Moon Cell is a universe. Keep in mind the sector/universe they are in is higher dimensional as well.

Goku and his verse gets blinked.

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#53 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Yup, Higher-Dimensional infinite Multiversal BB, besides never even actually demonstrating even universe-tier destruction (pretty much all talk and empty statements with the majority of her hax coming from her Authority which only applies to those living on or come from Earth via taking authority from Earth/Creation Goddesses like Tiamat)

Did some more research. Whatever power you can argue she has in the Moon Cell, essentially a computer world, doesn't translate to jack in the real world since even with the Moon Cell, it'd take her centuries just to be able to destroy the actual Earth.

I'm gonna have to retract what I thought earlier about her being universe level too. Just a statement and unknown how she would.

And really? Using Gilgamesh's Ea animation he does on any opponent once it's unlocked and it not destroying anything at all in the cutscene to argue he can one-shot the entire Moon Cell? When he never did anything close to that and is quite lacking in feats himself, since he’s pretty much all statements and scaling? You fraud XD

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#54 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

Further reasoning why universe anything is trippy in Fate even when a character says it is because Nasuland's definition of universe is quite broad to say the least. As in, very limited Pocket Dimensions pass off as it.

Extra/CCC/Extella actually explain what they are and make a distinction between what's referred to as a Universe of Awareness/Observational Space (観測宇宙, Kansoku Uchuu) and Universe of Record/Archival Space (記録宇宙, Kiroku Uchuu)

The former refers to the domain of existence wherein time exists per human awareness, with a past, present, and future; this is the Universe that is described to comprise of the timelines of human history. An example of this is the world wherein most of the story took place that you see when you watch the Chinese cartoon, wryd the mango, play the vidya game, etc etc. Remember Earth? It falls under this category.

By contrast, "Universe of Record" (Archival Space) is the domain of existence wherein the advance of time is expressed as a record, and past, present, and future do not exist. The Reverse Side of the World falls under this category. And it's still the Earth. So Earth, in a sense, also fall under this category. The memory of Moon Cell is an example of a Universe of Record too.

And the Throne of Heroes is another example of Archival Space. But it's nothing more than a term to refer to a the sum of the souls that are permanently preserved in a certain manner rather than being an actual universe

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#55 Edited by EcoBlitz (4864 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: your “moon cell isn’t real world” logic is quite bad tbh. Living humans exists inside the moon cell.

And the throne of heroes is beyond space and time.

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#56 Posted by TheDeathstar (4161 posts) - - Show Bio

The Gilgamesh wank just got debunked like expected.

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#57 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: Not when it’s an actual issue in-series.

With said humans transferring themselves over to the digital world on the Moon with the real Earth dying out

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#58 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: I like how in the last thread you said Moon Cell BB is universal due to her universal statement, then you stopped replying when I proved the universal statement was base BB, not Moon Cell BB; now you're trying to pretend she isn't universal at all. Lol... Stay consistent please.

Real beings live in the Moon Cell. Also please explain the Moon Cell's quantum timelock abilities if it's only a virtual device. Also debunk Gilgamesh destroying multiple infinite sized higher dimensional realms.

You also admitted to never playing CCC and not knowing anything about it; you're literally looking up random stuff.

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#59 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: I went with what I heard back than. And I just did some more research and read the translations. Opinions can change when you learn new stuff.

Why would I care what happens in the Moon Cell when it all translates to limited power that barely affects the real world even with an malicious AI directing it?

Living people on the Moon Cell are either people from the real Earth or NPCs made from the Moon Cell. Irrelevant

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#60 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Because quantum timelocks are barely effecting the real world. Lol. Not to mention the Moon Cell (for the most part) has no reason to effect reality. The Moon Cell's reality marble is just as real as any other reality marble, such as Earth's, ect. By your logic Earth is not real because its Gaia's reality marble separate from other realities.

You still haven't debunked Gilgamesh's beyond multiversal Moon Cell busting feat, nor have you proven the Moon Cell is not actually real.

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#61 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Moon Cell on its own won’t because it’s only purpose is to observe the Earth. When you got something like B.B. or Titan Altera hijacking it, it’s a completely different story.

Virtual realities by definition aren’t real world. Look up what virtual means. And it’s an in series issue. BB admits even with the Moon Cell, it’d take a long time to destroy just the real Earth. When Titan Altera took over it, all she managed was making a real world projection of herself to devastate B.C. Earth.

Whats there to debunk? Gilgamesh never did anything with Ea. His attack animation shows him doing nothing other than destroy the opponent with it too.

There isn’t a single feat of busting even one universe in the entire thing XD

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#62 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Moon Cell quantum timelocks say otherwise.

This is fiction, which does not follow IRL rules. If we use IRL rules, the Moon Cell effecting reality at all is not possible, yet it heavily does.

Gilgamesh shattered the Moon Cell's reality marble with the mere spinning of Ea, they are even in outside space afterwards; the core can restore it briefly afterwards of course.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/1/11/EACCC.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150831154656 < Gilgamesh destroying the Moon Cell reality marble. Stomping Moon Cell BB also backs up his power.

Oh look, Moon Cell Gilgamesh is existing outside of the Moon Cell's reality despite "not being real."

Also Ea destroying reality marbles is one of it's main functions, which is exactly what it did here. Ea even in the main non video game timelines can destroy reality marbles.

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#63 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Yeah, the virtual reality within it, bullshit artist.

Nothing shown of that attack that he does on anyone once it’s unlocked. I don’t see no reality being destroyed.

For this Gil being so above main timeline Gil, you sure are relying on main timeline Gil’s feat of destroying Rider’s Reality Marble, which was actually demonstrated since this Gil’s Ea is completely featless.

Beating BB says nothing, especially since Gil had an answer to the main issue of dealing with her which was her Authority.

Bitch got owned later by Kiara whose best feats are Planet level, and even that’s debateable with how trippy that planet level ultimate attack of hers (that I can’t post since it’s NSFW) is.

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#64 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Yeah, nuking timelines that effects the real world proves the Moon Cell is fake.

It literally shows him shatter the reality marble and exist in outside space, which 100% fits canonically with what Ea has been shown and stated to do.

BB still fused with the Moon Cell itself and had it's beyond multiversal power; countering her hax is only one part of it.

BB>>>Kiara. Kiara absorbed a half dead BB and wasn't even successful in fully absorbing half dead BB. Infact half dead is an understatement, more like literally in the middle of dying. This currently dying BB lost her connection to the Moon Cell as well. Moon Cell BB at full power>>>>>>>Kiara who SEMI absorbed a dying base BB. Yes, Kiara took control of the Moon Cell, but she had none of BB's hax. Gilgamesh proceeded to instantly stomp Kiara after stomping BB. Also Kiara is far beyond planetary; her ultimate attack does not equate to planetary.

By your logic FSN Gil>>>>CCC Gil "because he's real."

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#65 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Nuking simulations is impressive now? We already know for a fact it’d take centuries for BB just to wreck the Earth so stop with the fanfiction. She herself admitting to this.

It doesn’t show a thing. He charges up the attack. And a big beam hits the target. That’s it. Nothing destroyed afterwards either. That fact that you now admit to using main timeline Gil’s feats to try to justify your claims CC Gil since the guy has shit to say for destructive feats without scaling already proves my point.

Yet I couldn’t use Extella’s feats, a direct sequal to Extra mind you, though. Since that’s a whole lot more I can use to argue as well.

Planet level opponent wouldn’t even register to an infinite Multiversal opponent. Instead, Kiara literally took BB’s power for herself and properly fought Gil before losing.

Keep arguing your fan fiction though

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#66 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: No, nuking actual timelines.

When he plants Ea in the ground the reality marble is destroyed. And no, I am saying that this feat is backed up by Ea's general functions in all timelines; this is simply one of the things that Ea is capable of doing in any timeline, CCC's version is just on a beyond multiversal scale.

You are saying the Moon Cell isn't real; I am proving it is by showing that a weaker version of CCC's Moon Cell (aka Extella's Moon Cell) can nuke timelines, let alone the original Fate/Extra and CCC Moon Cell. Hakuno casually could shape reality as she saw fit with the Moon Cell in the original Extra video game.

I already debunked Extella being a sequel to Extra in the last thread. Extella is a massively different set of timelines from the original Extra and CCC; it's lore is very different, the endings of Extra and CCC make Extella impossible to happen in the same timelines, and the levels of power/feats are massively nerfed. Extella's weaker Moon Cell can nuke timelines, the original Moon Cell can shape reality itself and it's reality marble is beyond multiversal in scope, along with it being 8D.

Kiara is not planetary, and all she did was fight a weakened Nero, Archer, and Tamamo after they just got out of a death battle they barely survived against BB; Gilgamesh flat out stomps her.

"I never played CCC." *Tries to debate CCC despite not knowing anything about it*

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#67 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Another useless essay with nothing new to offer. Let me know if all your going to do is regurgitate the same crap over and over, expecting things to change.

Once more, Gil is featless in destructive feats. He never destroyed a timeline with Ea. And what’s more, Timelines in a virtual world mean nothing when all that power translates to barely effecting just a real planet, let alone all of real space.

Extella simply discards timelines that will end on their own. And again, if I can’t use Extella feats, why are you using them now?

Dimensional tiering means jack shit to feats. There’s not a single feat of busting a universe beyond an empty claim by someone who was defeated to a Planet level threat WITH her power.

Gil fought Kiara in a boss fight and could be damaged by her. Stop bullshitting. She simply lost the fight

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#68 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: The timelines are flat out connected to reality.

I am using Extella's Moon Cell as an example, as it is capable of that, yet is far weaker than Extra's Moon Cell. Extra's Moon Cell can flat out change reality (Moon Cell Hakuno did it instantly). You use Extella as if it were canon to CCC, such as using Extella Gilgamesh getting wrecked by the Moon Cell as a feat for CCC Gilgamesh, yet CCC Gilgamesh lolstomped on the Moon Cell multiple times.

BB never fought Kiara, Kiara absorbed a dying base form BB and still wasn't capable of fully absorbing her. CCC Kiara is also far beyond planetary.

By your logic Kirei Kotomine=CCC Gilgamesh because he can damage him in gameplay. Also Gilgamesh one shots Kiara with Enuma Elish.

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#69 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Another lie. Their simulations that Moon Cell makes based on data gathering from viewing the entire history of the Earth and humanity. That’s about the only connection there is.

Once more, whatever you can argue BB does in a computer world doesn’t translate even remotely to what she can outside it with how limited her powers translate to in the real world. Your own pet series admits to this and shows nothing better in feats to say otherwise.

Confrontation was treated as a fight and Gil needed to use his strongest attack, Ea, to win.

Yeah, sounds like a casual stomp that Gil put no effort into alright.

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#70 Posted by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Those are the infinite futures/possible timelines you speak of, which can still effect reality entirely. Extella's Moon Cell nukes actual timelines though.

*Moon Cell Hakuno instantly changes reality* *Says the Moon Cell is only virtual*

So FSN Archer is on CCC Gilgamesh's level since it was treated as a fight in-game and Gilgamesh can use Enuma Elish on him.

This is what happens when you try to debate a game you never played.

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#71 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Your head is literally too far up your own ass to listen.

Extella discards them. What happens to said timelines either degrades like that weird pocket dimension Altera appeared out of or just ends on its own. And again, why do you selectively choose what does or doesn’t go from Fate/Extella. Make up your mind already.

Very limited affecting of a single planet that’ll take a lot of time is not even close to what your trying to spin.

Affecting reality of a virtual world is irrelevant for the above reason too.

You brought up how Ea was used to beat Kiara. I’m using that to show he needed it to end the fight since all that shows is that he canonly wins. So it’s not a stomp like you say it is. Why did it require his most powerful NP to take out someone whose a fly to him apparently according to you?

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#72 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: I am using an Extella feat to show that even Extella's weak incarnation can effect reality, let alone Extra's Moon Cell that can instantly reshape reality. I am proving both aren't just virtual; I'm not saying "Extella Moon Cell has this feat, so Extra's Moon Cell can too" (even though it probably can). I am proving how every version of the Moon Cell effects reality, Extra being the most powerful version by far.

Moon Cell Hakuno in Fate/Extra instantly changed reality.

Ok.

Who said Enuma Elish was needed? CCC Gilgamesh is always serious, so he won't restrain himself from using Enuma Elish out of pride like FSN.

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#73 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Virtual reality warping with piss weak showings on the real world in the same setting. It’s as useful as it sounds

Hakuno changed things around in the Moon Cell after dismantling the system. Again. So what?

Who says it wasn’t needed. It’s a known fact in series for most Servants to not reveal their trump card unless they absolutely have to. Since they want to hide as much of their true power as they can. Fate/Extra followed this logic a lot. And that fight simply wasn’t the stompfest for Gil like you really want it to be

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#74 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Instantly changing reality, indeed, the Moon Cell can barely effect reality.

What? Lol. Not only have you admitted to not playing CCC, but I doubt you played Extra either after hearing you say this.

You take everything out of context. Normal Servants keep their Noble Phantasm a secret so that the enemy doesn't learn of their identity (aka the enemy can prep against them later to counter them entirely). Every incarnation of Gilgamesh however doesn't use his Noble Phantasm (Enuma Elish) out of pride, and because his opponent isn't worthy; even base CCC Gilgamesh won't use it due to this pride (though he uses it willingly and is serious all the time at the end of the game). Enuma Elish is the strongest Noble Phantasm in the Nasuverse; if Gilgamesh uses it, the enemy isn't going to survive and prep against, not to mention there IS NO counter to Enuma Elish in the Nasuverse (Avalon at best for FSN Enuma Elish), however CCC Enuma Elish is two dimensions higher than Avalon, meaning the last Noble Phantasm that can counter Gilgamesh's is rendered useless against the CCC incarnation of Enuma Elish. Another example is that Zero Gilgamesh used Enuma Elish on Iskandar simply because he was worthy, not because Iskandar was an actual threat to him. Gilgamesh infact usually gets mad if you can't discern that he is Gilgamesh (he's basically the opposite of your average Servant). Not to mention Kiara already knows who Gilgamesh is.

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#75 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: It’s own virtual reality? Sure it change that easily. Real world? Not so much. Most I ever read was B.B. admitting it’d take centuries just to wipe out humanity and destroy the Earth and Kiara causing some stuff in the real world. So I’m gonna need a source on what your going by.

Oh shut it already with your made-up Dimensional tiering. CCC Gil’s Ea is completely featless. Nothing puts it any better than main timeline Gil’s and thus it’ll get no-sold by Avalon no differently.

Gilgamesh certainly didn’t have the same respectful attitude for that thot as he did for Bro-skandar. So with both his pride and refusing to use it unless needed and the consequences of revealing an NP acknowledged in the game itself, that just leaves him having to use it to finish off an opponent he had to actually had to fight.

Congrats on proving yourself that Gil being able to beat a Planet level threat requires effort.

And still not even actual Universal feats too. Just flowery descriptions and speculation. At least DBZ has actual universe busting feats XD

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#76 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: BB is fused with the Moon Cell; her view of time is where infinity can be contained in a single second, so it will only take centuries from her point of view. Moon Cell Hakuno (on the level of Moon Cell BB) https://s9.postimg.cc/htfonsibz/Untitled6.png

CCC Enuma Elish destroyed a beyond multiversal reality and one shotted an 8D omnipresent being that has complete control over said reality; Avalon is a 6D construct with it's only feat being successfully tanking a HEAVILY suppressed FSN Enuma Elish.

Gilgamesh uses Enuma Elish against BB's MINDLESS familiar/minion in his NP event; surely he has no respect for a mindless minion of BB, right? Yet he still uses Enuma Elish at full power on it just to show he isn't messing around anymore.

Kiara is far beyond planet level and is still no match for Gilgamesh.

Goku and his verse get deleted by any of the four Servants in CCC, along with BB and Kiara. Next I'm gonna hear Goku>Akasha (Nasuverse god who can blink Gilgamesh out of existence, along with the verse itself), right?

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#77 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Still spouting the same nonsense.

All that means for B.B. is she can give herself all the time she needs for whatever goals she wants to accomplish. It’ll still take centuries in real time for her to destroy the Earth. LMAO

Mor Muh Dimensions too. Speaks volumes about what I said earlier about this series being all talk and no feats, thus requiring extreme speculation like this.

Too bad all that High Dimensional-Multiversal power can’t do shit for effieciantly messing with just one planet. XD

Used EA simply because he needed to use it to beat them. That enemy was enough of a threat to warrant it.

LOLnope. Kiara’s NP attack is Planet level at best. And vague as hell at that.

Nice fan fiction. Base Goku flicks Gil’s head off via feats

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#78 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: No, that is her literal perception of time, not to mention Hakuno changed reality. Look up Extra's ending.

>Sends Gilgamesh Moon Cell busting feat

>Says CCC has no feats

>Played CCC and states Gilgamesh's intentions

>Has not played CCC and assumes Gilgamesh used it because he needed it, despite this being contradictory to his character

If that enemy was a threat, then BB and the Moon Cell would curbstomp Gilgamesh.

You call it planet level because a planet was involved with it, despite the fact that the actual attack itself had no planet involved in it. Planets are also a reality in of themselves in the Nasuverse.

Goku would get killed by a random Sakura Dungeon enemy.

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#79 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Than post the feat of Hakuno affecting the real world already. What’s keeping you from it?

Yup, she perceives time in such a way where it can go by as fast as she wants and she can give herself all the time she needs for her goal. Still missing the fact the most she can do to the real Earth is gradually destroy it over a long period of time.

Of course I didn’t play it. Game is ass and not available outside Japan. When did I say I did? I did the most you probably did and go off the translations of the Gil route. So I did my homework since it’s “gameplay” is endless dialogue 90% of the time anyway.

Nope. Because Gilgamesh had the exact plot device he needed to get rid of BB’s main hax which was her Authority.

Because that’s Kiara’s Noble Phantasm. Her biggest attack. Given she hasn’t demonstrated anything better, I find it even harder to believe she can do any more.

Wrong. BB can’t even destroy a planet and Gil needs to waste his NP to beat Planet level trash. Base DBS Goku breathes in his direction:

Don’t equate pocket dimensions like those in Gaia/Earth has full fledged universes. Your claims are fraudulent enough as it is

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#81 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Hakuno is fused with the core and is allowed to change reality instantly; it happens instantly https://youtu.be/VzMreDI2Nc0?t=464 Keep in mind the Moon Cell is going from it's own reality marble, to the main universe, all the way into Gaia's reality marble (Earth), which is a lot harder than affecting your average fictional planet; each planet is a reality itself.

The Moon Cell reality marble is a real reality marble, just like Gaia's.

>Uses the fact he stated he never played CCC against him

>Tries to imply I said that he said he played CCC

You haven't done your homework, infact you have proven your overall Nasuverse knowledge is extremely limited.

He still needs to deal with BB's beyond multiversal power and CCC (her Noble Phantasm that is her most powerful attack), which is 2nd in power only to Enuma Elish itself.

Base BB can destroy universe sized sectors in the Moon Cell, and she is also above Kingprotea (stated to be an infinitely expanding universal threat).

Once again, Goku dies to a random Sakura Dungeon NPC.

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#82 Posted by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Also, if the Moon Cell isn't real, tell me how it can kill real people? Infact, normal people are erased instantly if they somehow enter one of the Moon Cell's higher dimensional realms.

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#83 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Get it through that incredibly dense skull of yours this time: Whatever reality warping feats done INSIDE the Moon Cell means jack squat since that equates to limited planetary scale reality warping in the real world. So limited in fact that it takes centuries just to end the Earth. Your video showed nothing concrete that was any better since again, it’s just the Earth getting affected in minor, unquantifiable ways.

Once again, Reality Marbles within Gaia aren’t universes

Except BB isn’t even Universal in feats. She can’t even straight up bust a planet.

Kingprotea never demonstrated even planetary size. She became a giant and that alone made her practically brain dead and she’d grow until she self-destructed so I wouldn’t put her max size much greater with how fucked up just this made her.

Just like everything with B.B., all talk no action.

Gil needs Ea to beat Planetary threats, making him no different than main timeline Gil in DC. Base Goku flicks this overhyped trash

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#84 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: When you transfer your literal being into the Moon Cell’s virtual reality, of course you can die in it. Nothing special.

That vid of Hakuno reality warping was no different than messing with my computer (Moon Cell) by screwing its registry. Sure ain't changing shit up in real life though

Give me more vague feats you have to over-interpret to make them sound more impressive than they are. Let’s see if you can beat Gilgamesh nuking da Multiverse off a generic attack animation for Enuma Elish that hilariously shows nothing busted.

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#85 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: I'd just like to point out (before I begin debunking you further), is that I do not recall anything about centuries to change Earth, and even if what you claim is true, I don't know what context it is in, or if it was base or Moon Cell BB. It's been a while since I played CCC, but I am pretty sure that was never mentioned, however assuming what you are saying is true, this is easy to debunk regardless.

Hakuno changing the course of history in the real world instantly shows the Moon Cell is capable of effecting the real world. Infact, considering the Moon Cell has to manage its own beyond multiversal sized reality and can reach into the main universe all the way into Gaia's reality marble of unknown size (Earth) really speaks to it's power.

Can't bust planets based off what? Exactly, nothing.

Kingprotea grows infinitely and is an infinitely expanding universal threat.

"Although already extremely large, Huge Scale makes it so that there is no limit to how large she can become, increasing the upper limit as the previous upper limit is reached. Repeating the process infinitely, it is "infinite growth of infinite growth." With the potential to become a "planet-destroying, universe-level disaster", the giant transformation makes her lose complex intelligence and function. As it cannot bear common sense, the user will completely self-destruct."

https://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Kingprotea#Abilities

From planet level to a universal threat via growth alone.

But how can their real soul die in a fake world? Your logic is broken.

Goku gets erased just from trying to enter the Moon Cell.

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#86 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Read it somewhere but I’m not going through that mess to find it again

Grows to a giant size that quickly leaves her a vegetable and never even showed planetary size. The fact that she’ll self-destruct too also shows she has a limit, so again, another baseless claim that contradicts itself

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#87 Posted by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Lol.

She is clearly being stated to be a universal threat before self destructing.

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#88 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Stated to grow infinitely yet at the same time has a limit and self-destructs. Contradiction right there.

No one ever even fought her at her supposed full power either. Never mind its irrelevant since her useless ability leaves her helplessly brain dead

Doesn’t equate to BB being able to one-shot a universe she never did.

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#89 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Can grow infinitely if not for self destruction; self destruction can also be referring to her loss of intelligence and functions.

Base BB stated she can, Hakuno said it isn't a bluff or metaphor, and lastly Gilgamesh (nigh-omniscient via SNI) acknowledged her claim and wasn't impressed nor threatened by it. Moon Cell BB becomes the Moon Cell itself.

I also like how you think feats are all that matter, yet Goku is universal to you despite zero universe busting feats. His "universal" clash only destroyed a few planets. Hypocrite.

Also I take back Goku getting erased once he enters the Moon Cell, as he is too inept to enter it in the first place.

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#90 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Kingprotea was already brain dead as building sized giant. You can’t get much more than that. Self-destruct means to physically destroy one’s self.

It’s such a useless power that it doesn’t justify someone being able to bust a universe. A simple BFR took care for her and she was never even fought at her supposed Planet to Universal size.

Wrong again. Goku’s fist clash with Beerus caused Universe scale destruction, taking out Multiple stars and planets. Given its universal in scope since the destruction reached the Kai Realm at the edge of Universe 7, it’s a Multi-Galaxy level feat easily

Fusion Zamasu whose weaker than EoS Goku also achieved a Universal feat by literally assimilating the entire universe into his being.

Meanwhile, Gil needs to bust out the Ea just to beat Planetary threats like Kiara.

Destroy through unknown mean. Could be a gradual collapse of that area to leave Gil stranded for all we know.

Good for Goku. Their limited as hell outside the Moon Cell anyway

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#91 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: Stop being toxic. If you can't debate politely, don't debate at all.

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#92 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

"Destroy one's self" can be used in multiple context, and even if it is the one you used, I already explained why it isn't contradictory.

Being above something universal in size makes you universal, especially when both base BB and Kingprotea are confirmed to be a universal threat.

Multi galaxy =/= universal.

I said Goku, not Zamasu. After all, I am playing your game of "feats only."

CCC Kiara is far beyond planetary and can solo DBS, including Zeno.

Gilgamesh didn't need Enuma Elish for Kiara. No one in the Nasuverse is a threat to CCC Gilgamesh except for three people, those people being Extraverse Enkidu (his equal), Extraverse Archetype Earth Arcueid (she may be a bit weaker, equal, or stronger than CCC Gilgamesh), and Akasha (she can erase Gilgamesh and the entire Nasuverse instantly).

Realistically speaking, Akasha would erase Goku once she detects a foreign entity in her verse.

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#93 Posted by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Self-Destruct means exactly that. Can’t exactly grow when your falling apart.

Again. No one to scale her too since she was dealt with before long before she could reach her hypothetical size. So again, no one scales to her.

LOLnope. Kiara is Planet level at best based on her NP and so far you haven’t given a reason why. Frieza alone could take her.

You mentioned Goku and Beerus fist bumps. I added on to it being better than anything actually done in Extra CCC.

Except Ea is required to beat her. Using that, sure she’s no longer a theat to him.

Akasha’s featless

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#94 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: The skill can still be active despite her being an empty shell.

Confirmed universal base BB statement along with her hax put her above Kingprotea at any stage in her growth.

Kiara is multiverse level at least for having some control of the Moon Cell and impressing Mystic Code Tamamo (above her Amaterasu self due to drawing power from the Root and can kill Moon Cell BB). https://imgur.com/a/INmUP Kiara also having a planet involved in her NP does not equate to planet level.

Gilgamesh does not need Enuma Elish for someone weaker than Moon Cell BB.

Goku and Beerus's trashy universal feat and low MFTL+ feats vs beyond multiversal feats and omnipresent feats.

Akasha is above the entire Nasuverse and has stated she can rewrite/destroy it at will, this is backed up by the fact she is literally god, and CCC Servants draw their power from her and the Earth Mother Goddess. Nasu's outside statement said she is low Servant level, but this seems to be a joke on his part, as his lore that he writes states that Akasha is above everything, including the Nasuverse itself. CCC characters also drawing their power from her (who are way above low Servant level) makes this statement outdated and further backs up lore statements. Nasu's multi in-lore statements>>>single random interview statement that he further rectons with CCC.

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#95 Edited by Gokluma (8575 posts) - - Show Bio

This guy from dc with mxy's powers

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#96 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Nothing cofirmed since BB has nothe for feats on the level of Universe busting and Kingprotea was dealt with a simple BFR long before she met her hypothetical size. So again, nothing scales to her.

LOLnope. Kiara’s NP makes her Planet level. And nope, Amaterasu. Tamamo whose a mere aspect of her. Amaterasu herself being a God Tier and Fate Extra CCC with no feats (noticing a pattern here?) and her few descriptions of her power are nothing to write about.

https://imgur.com/a/INmUP

^ I can’t believe your actually arguing with a statement from Tamamo obviously bullshitting. And from F/GO no less even though you insist we don’t argue things outside Fate/Extra.

Let’s see the real facts Amaterasu’s power, that multi-tailed demon Tamamo referred to.

Amaterasu is the embodiment of the Sun. She’s one of the few beings in the entire Moon Cell that can maybe defeat the Umbral Star, a mere Alien asteroid, and Titan Altera, another planetary threat, can approach her level at her maximum power.

Makes sense for Planet level Kiara to impress Amaterasu or Tamamo.

That “root” is referring to root of human origin. As an Observation device that only collects data from Earth, there’s no way for it to have any data on Akasha in it.

Earth Mother Goddess Tiamat? Another planetary being. Just look at Fate/Grand Order and how she was beat.

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#97 Posted by Sy8000 (35204 posts) - - Show Bio

Earth Mother Goddess Tiamat? Another planetary being. Just look at Fate/Grand Order and how she was beat.

To be fair, the mats confirm Tiamat was literally destroying herself throughout the fight because she's constantly in conflict with herself about destroying humanity.

Although Tiamat has few feats anyway.

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#98 Edited by zgtfreak (1869 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75: BB's statement is enough, since Hakuno said it isn't a bluff or metaphor, and it was acknowledged by a nigh-omniscient (Gilgamesh). Feats aren't everything, yet Genesis Gilgamesh and Moon Cell BB have the beyond multiversal feats to back up their statements.

Completely fail to debunk anything I say and just keep saying planetary with no evidence. Planet (a reality in Nasuverse's case) being shown in an NP (and not even used in the actual attack) =/= planetary.

Mystic Code Tamamo (draws power from the Root/Akasha and the Earth Mother Goddess, aka borrowed power)>Amaterasu>>>>>>>normal Tamamo.

The Earth Mother Goddess seems to draw power from the Root (Akasha's, not the human origins), and the Servants draw power from The Earth Mother Goddess, who seems to draw power from the Root, but yes, they also use power from human origins.

Using Fate/GO characters and scaling them to CCC is invalid, as CCC has different lore, power levels, and cosmology from the rest of Fate; it has shown to be far more powerful than normal Fate timelines. The only reason I brought up Amaterasu is because main timeline Amaterasu is fodder to CCC Tamamo and other CCC characters, yet she is still multiversal; really goes to show CCC's power.

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#99 Edited by ChaosKnight75 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Take her word at face value and ignore that fact that featwise, the verse is barely Planet level, than sure. Big nope to you throwing around Multiversal characters though.

Kiara blows the planet for her NP. Your the one failing spectacularly with saying she’s anything more.

They weren't talking about The Root as in Akasha either They were talking about the root (lowercase r) as in the root of human's life on Earth which is the stuff that Human genes originated from. Rani did an analysis on the data Robin gave you and she manage to pull out the access right to the same power of beginning/origin BB is using. That power of beginning is the stuff from which human genes originated. Rani's idea is to unlock the same power, which is INTRINSIC to all human beings and also exist within the Servants' Saint Graph. The root referenced here isn't Akasha, its something that exist within all human beings and Servant's Saint Graph. Heck, Akasha was rarely, if never, mentioned in Extra.

Further backed up by the description of Tiamat, who BB borrows the Authority of, given all life on Earth is genetically linked to her.

And besides Akasha not even being mentioned it’s impossible for the Moon Cell to have that when all it copies is Earth

And we better be using F/GO Tiamat. That’s pretty much the only version that exists with feats in the Fate franchise. She doesn’t even appear in Extra CCC and given she should be no stronger than Amaterasu whose merely the embodiment of the Sun in power, not Multiversal (she’s fucking featless), than she’s no better than she is in F/GO

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#100 Posted by Cypher0120 (657 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosknight75:

I mean, you can make the claim that top tiers can reach Star Level given the newest thing in GO.

Odin trapping Surtr to replace the Sun and using him to keep the world alive before it freezes to death.

Beyond that... not sure if a proper multiversal claim can hold weight given the lack of other feats.