" Pre-Retcon Molecule Man could give her a good fight. "
Pre-retcon Molecule Man would kill her effortlessly. He casually repaired the damage Beyonder had done to all Marvel by just raising his finger. I repeat; ALL of Marvel.
" Pre-Retcon Molecule Man could give her a good fight. "
Pre-retcon Molecule Man would kill her effortlessly. He casually repaired the damage Beyonder had done to all Marvel by just raising his finger. I repeat; ALL of Marvel. "
Indeed. Wasn't he a threat to the Living Tribunal? Also, what other versions of Molecule Man are there? I forgot. "
He could've killed the Living Tribunal if he wanted to. I know that Molecule Man was retconned from being the second most powerful being in MU to a Cosmic Cube, but I have no idea if that's changed or not.
first we must know which version of Molecule Man..
if this is current Molecule Man, then WPOTC wins with a blink of an eye..
but if this is Classic Molecule Man, then the whole battle gets a lot more interesting..
first, who was the Molecule Man during the Secret Wars I and II.. it was said that he possessed one of the greatest potential of all.. power on a cosmic scale.. and by chanced achieved it.. it was said that only he is capable of facing the Beyonder, ans so, the entire race of Watchers pleads for his aid in fighting the Beyonder..
he also possess great power.. as he managed to re-create the Multiverse with only one finger..
but what exactly is the power of the Molecule Man? Owen Reece possessed the psionic ability to manipulate all forms of matter on a subatomic level, and to manipulate all known forms of energy and to convert matter into energy or energy into matter.. which ability allows him to do virtually anything he wants in an almost omnipotent degree..
Jean Grey as the White Phoenix of the Crown practically has the same powers as the Classic Molecule Man.. as she too is capable of manipulation all forms of matter, energy as well as more abstract concept such as time in a universal scale at the very least at a sub-atomic level..
the major difference is probably the scale of what they did.. though both displayed both multiversal feats, the Molecule Man clearly has more impressive feats.. in the White Phoenix's defense, the full extent of her powers are not yet revealed..
also, there is one more thing that differentiates them.. the Molecule Man may possess total control of the physical attributes of the multiverse such as matter and energy, but he cannot alter the very fabric of reality and defy the laws of logic..
the WPOTC on the other hand is now one of the same being as the Phoenix Force itself which is the primal force of creation, and thus, he possess something that the Molecule Man doesn't have.. that is the power over the realm of the mind, spirit and imagination.. she possesses power over life and death itself.. and the Molecule Man being a sentient being and uses psionic energy clearly makes him subjected to the power of the Phoenix..
so if the Molecule Man doesn't have the power to affect things beyond the physical plane such as the concept of death itself, then how can he defeat the Phoenix, which is the amalgamation of both life and death, of creation and destruction?
Feat-wise: Classic Molecule Man has more impressive feat
Logic and Semantics: White Phoenix of the Crown is beyond the power of the Molecule Man
so if the Molecule Man doesn't have the power to affect things beyond the physical plane such as the concept of death itself, then how can he defeat the Phoenix, which is the amalgamation of both life and death, of creation and destruction?
"first we must know which version of Molecule Man..
if this is current Molecule Man, then WPOTC wins with a blink of an eye..
but if this is Classic Molecule Man, then the whole battle gets a lot more interesting..
first, who was the Molecule Man during the Secret Wars I and II.. it was said that he possessed one of the greatest potential of all.. power on a cosmic scale.. and by chanced achieved it.. it was said that only he is capable of facing the Beyonder, ans so, the entire race of Watchers pleads for his aid in fighting the Beyonder..
he also possess great power.. as he managed to re-create the Multiverse with only one finger..
but what exactly is the power of the Molecule Man? Owen Reece possessed the psionic ability to manipulate all forms of matter on a subatomic level, and to manipulate all known forms of energy and to convert matter into energy or energy into matter.. which ability allows him to do virtually anything he wants in an almost omnipotent degree..
Jean Grey as the White Phoenix of the Crown practically has the same powers as the Classic Molecule Man.. as she too is capable of manipulation all forms of matter, energy as well as more abstract concept such as time in a universal scale at the very least at a sub-atomic level..
the major difference is probably the scale of what they did.. though both displayed both multiversal feats, the Molecule Man clearly has more impressive feats.. in the White Phoenix's defense, the full extent of her powers are not yet revealed..
also, there is one more thing that differentiates them.. the Molecule Man may possess total control of the physical attributes of the multiverse such as matter and energy, but he cannot alter the very fabric of reality and defy the laws of logic..
the WPOTC on the other hand is now one of the same being as the Phoenix Force itself which is the primal force of creation, and thus, he possess something that the Molecule Man doesn't have.. that is the power over the realm of the mind, spirit and imagination.. she possesses power over life and death itself.. and the Molecule Man being a sentient being and uses psionic energy clearly makes him subjected to the power of the Phoenix..
so if the Molecule Man doesn't have the power to affect things beyond the physical plane such as the concept of death itself, then how can he defeat the Phoenix, which is the amalgamation of both life and death, of creation and destruction? Feat-wise: Classic Molecule Man has more impressive feat Logic and Semantics: White Phoenix of the Crown is beyond the power of the Molecule Man tough battle indeed.. "
Logically that would be the case,however Molecule Man was shown to have power greater thant hat of even the Living Tribunal Whom we understand is above the Phoenix(correct me if you think otherwise).
Would at vastly superior being really be subject to her laws?
We saw he couldn't kill that rose,but we only have assumptions on Phoenix's role in the whole cosmic scheme to think she could alter the rules of Death,when it has been erased.
Especially when it was the will of an even more vastly powerful being(Pre Retcon Beyonder)
Logically that would be the case,however Molecule Man was shown to have power greater thant hat of even the Living Tribunal Whom we understand is above the Phoenix(correct me if you think otherwise). Would at vastly superior being really be subject to her laws? We saw he couldn't kill that rose,but we only have assumptions on Phoenix's role in the whole cosmic scheme to think she could alter the rules of Death,when it has been erased. Especially when it was the will of an even more vastly powerful being(Pre Retcon Beyonder) "
very much true.. ABC logic says that MM is well over WPOTC due to the fact that he was the only being back then who can oppose Beyonder (save Rachel Summers with the full power of the Phoenix granted by the Beyonder).. my only point is that MM powers only reaches that of anything which is in the physical plane.. he has power over all forms of matter and energy, and as we saw, he can re-create the multiverse with nothing but a flick of a finger.. but still, MM has never displayed the power to control more abstract concepts such as that of time and space, more so the spirit and the mind.. so based on that claim, we must assume or theorize what can he possibly do to win this fight with his powers.. as revealed, his powers are more on the physical aspects of the cosmos.. possessing nigh-omnipotent mastery over atoms and molecules.. which is incredibly powerful.. but what can that do against a being which is one with the primal force of life and creation?
that is the major difference between the Beyonder and the Molecule Man.. the Beyonder was omnipotent.. he can do whatever he wants with nothing but a thought.. he warps reality to shape his will like creating from the fabric of nothingness and re-write the laws of logic whereas the Molecule man possess mastery over the aspect of matter and energy, the fundamental elements that composes the physical plane of the universe.. also, as we can see, the WPOTC basically has the same power as the MM which is total control of all forms of matter and energy in a sub-atomic level.. the thing is, the WPOTC has posses power over the realm of the mind and spirit which basically makes her more versatile..
i'm not assuming the WPOTC because, like you said, MM is clearly well above the comic hierarchy with more impressive feats.. all i'm saying is what can he do with his powers to win? so with all said and done, can i say stalemate in this matter? unless someone explains how the MM with his powers can defeat the WPOTC with his powers.. nice insights though.. :P
@lord_oraculous016: Well considering that Uatu called upon Owen to save the multiverse rather than the more diverse cosmic beings (death)which hold powers in non-physical aspects,to fight a being who had UNLIMITED diversity. Would suggest that he out of anyone would stand a better chance.
Diversity shouldn't pose that much of a threat to MM.
@Pr_Beyonder: well, that would be an theory based on the standard ABC logic.. which says that the Beyonder was all-powerful, and MM is the only one who has a chance against him while Beyonder killed Death, that means Molecule Man can also kill Death.. so now comes the real question, can MM based on the powers, kill Death or more so, destroy the concept of Death? impossible, correct?
in order for one to remove the concept which is 'Death", one must possess the power to alter the very fabric of logic itself.. MM has never displayed such ability.. its like saying that a doctor who treats cancer is an Oncologist.. an Opthamologist is also a doctor, therefor an Opthamologist can also threat cancer.. i don't know if that is the best choice of logic about the matter.. my point is, we must not always base our opinions on obvious ABC logic.. sure MM can fight the Beyonder back then, but the question is, what are the extent of his powers and the limits of what it can do.. the Beyonder has no such thing as limits.. MM sadly has..
" @Pr_Beyonder: well, that would be an theory based on the standard ABC logic.. which says that the Beyonder was all-powerful, and MM is the only one who has a chance against him while Beyonder killed Death, that means Molecule Man can also kill Death.. so now comes the real question, can MM based on the powers, kill Death or more so, destroy the concept of Death? impossible, correct? in order for one to remove the concept which is 'Death", one must possess the power to alter the very fabric of logic itself.. MM has never displayed such ability.. its like saying that a doctor who treats cancer is an Oncologist.. an Opthamologist is also a doctor, therefor an Opthamologist can also threat cancer.. i don't know if that is the best choice of logic about the matter.. my point is, we must not always base our opinions on obvious ABC logic.. sure MM can fight the Beyonder back then, but the question is, what are the extent of his powers and the limits of what it can do.. the Beyonder has no such thing as limits.. MM sadly has.. "
I wasn't only trying to point out his higher power in accordance to ABC logic,but trying to make the point of my previous point to show that Phoenix's diversity may not be an overwhelming factor considering, Pre-Retcon Beyonder's UNLIMITED diversity.
Of course that was just a mere thought,from the readers POV there was nothing that outright stated that PR MM VS PR Beyonder was a battle where MM actually had to deal with diversity.
It was said that Beyonder held back, never specified just how much.
So for all we know....more power may have been used to erase Death than to fight Owen.
I wasn't only trying to point out his higher power in accordance to ABC logic,but trying to make the point of my previous point to show that Phoenix's diversity may not be an overwhelming factor considering, Pre-Retcon Beyonder's UNLIMITED diversity. Of course that was just a mere thought,from the readers POV there was nothing that outright stated that PR MM VS PR Beyonder was a battle where MM actually had to deal with diversity. It was said that Beyonder held back, never specified just how much. So for all we know....more power may have been used to erase Death than to fight Owen. However,that's just another theory :P "
i get your point.. but since both characters have their strengths and weaknesses on different criteria, it would be hard to judge on a sole winner.. it's like the Chinese fable "His Spear against His Shield" where it is impossible for an impenetrable shield to coexist with a spear that finds nothing impenetrable.. unless we can find out who would MM defeat the WPOTC with his powers, and not the status he held, i will vouch for a stalemate till then.. nice points though..
You don't really need to be powerful enough to defeat any version of Owen, just powerful enough to survive him or buy some breathing space. Then prove superior in thinking and knowing the character well, and having a certain degree of minimum power, WPotC possesses those three things.
sorry.... i forgot to specify which version of MM.... As I can see there's a big difference between PR Molecule man and the current one, what are those differences??
ok i looked at the file of prerecton molecule man but i say it may be a stalemate still cause preemm was able tto effect the the multverse and one was of the dew who can hold there own against pre recton beyonder the other being rachel using the fulkl power of the phoenix force combined with some of her power. but one thing should ne noted if the white phoenix is stronger then rachel on that level then wouldnt she be able to fight prerecton beonder as well. i mean of cousre not defeat him but at least hold her own aginst him, also im still nuetral on this but as one said before white phoenix hasnt apeared mjuch so are true power wasnt really shown while prerecton molecule man limits has.neen shown. also white phoenix may be even stronger then tribunal it has been vaguley hinted. i dont think im saying this right but ill repeat it later with more detail
@lord_oraculous016: no, if its pre-retcon MM the battle doesnt get more interesting, phoenix gets erased from reality by the tip of his finger
I've been out of battle forums for a while now but i'll entertain you here..
i know the extent of pre-MM, and despite all the powerful abstracts kneeling before him, begging him to fight the beyonder, it was revealed that his powers does not affect conceptual beings such as Death.. coming from his own words, "all the powers in the multiverse, yet i can't kill a single rose".. based on that simple fact alone, one can argue that MM's power cannot affect the PF in theory who itself is both life and death.. i know all the hype with regards to pre retcon MM.. his feats were impressive, but this is not just a battle of hypes and sematics.. it is also a debate of logic.. and i'll stick to what a said a long time ago,
based on semantics and hype, yes MM would whoop Phoenix's ass.. i agree on that 100%
but based on logic examination of both beings power, the simple question remains, how?
also, the PF is beyond reality.. it exist in a higher plane of reality where the physical universe meets the realm of the mind, spirit and imagination..
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