White Phoenix( Marvel) vs Hecate( DC)

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TheDevil98

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Best feats of both included.

Morals off

Win by death, KO, incap.

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naknoemo00

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interesting fight

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TheDevil98

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geekryan

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White Phoenix has better feats

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TheDevil98

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@geekryan: Can you state some of those feats?

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KillianDuclark

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Hecate

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geekryan

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#9  Edited By geekryan
@thedevil98 said:

@geekryan: Can you state some of those feats?

Sure!

So first off, the White Phoenix version is the most powerful, meaning that all of Base/Green Phoenix and Dark Phoenix feats apply to White Phoenix.

Source for the following feats: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/jean-grey/4005-3552/forums/jean-grey-appreciation-thread-2227420/

Psychic Powers

Total Subatomic, Universal Telekinesis: White Phoenix holding the 616 in her hands with total telekinetic control of every atom in the universe. Some dispute that it is just a random universe of the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline, but since Jean needed to change Scott's mind in the 616 to prevent the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline or any dystopian future, its logical to conclude that this is indeed the 616. (New X-Men vol 1 #154)
Total Subatomic, Universal Telekinesis: White Phoenix holding the 616 in her hands with total telekinetic control of every atom in the universe. Some dispute that it is just a random universe of the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline, but since Jean needed to change Scott's mind in the 616 to prevent the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline or any dystopian future, its logical to conclude that this is indeed the 616. (New X-Men vol 1 #154)
Supreme Observation, Universal/ Trans-dimensional Telepathy:White Phoenix influences Scott to change his decision about quitting the X-Men and the school. Some downplay this feat, but take note that Jean was only told verbally that Scott quit, causing a dystopian future. She was not given a time and location of when he made this decision. (New X-Men vol 1 #154)
Total Control Over the Phoenix, Universal/ Transdimensional Telepathic Communication: White Phoenix nullifies the attacks of the Phoenix to save the Summers family and the reality from Vulcan, as well as making Vulcan vulnerable to their attacks. (What If? Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar)
Transdimensional Telepathy, Clairvoyance: Jean Grey frees Emma Frost from amped Lady Masterminds illusion and tells her to prepare for Hope Summers coming. Emma later conveniently remembers Jean's warning when the bonfire takes the shape of the Phoenix in front of Hope Summers. (Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #510; X-Men: Second Coming #2)
Total Control of the Phoenix Force: White Phoenix calls back the Phoenix pieces from the Cuckoos and Rachel. Rachel confirms it was Jean in the fourth scan. (Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #517; X-Men: Kingbreaker #4)

Cosmic Powers

Cosmic Knowledge: White Phoenix recognizes the universe after a moment of contemplating that the stars are actually galaxies in the realm she is in. (Classic X-Men #43)
Cosmic Knowledge: White Phoenix recognizes the universe after a moment of contemplating that the stars are actually galaxies in the realm she is in. (Classic X-Men #43)
Cosmic-Level Knowledge: White Phoenix knows how long Death has been building its tower and why it is a tower to begin with. Also, Jean's bonding to the Phoenix scared the cosmic beings, for it signified how humanity would replace them one day. (X-Men Forever vol 1 #3)
Cosmic-Level Knowledge: White Phoenix knows how long Death has been building its tower and why it is a tower to begin with. Also, Jean's bonding to the Phoenix scared the cosmic beings, for it signified how humanity would replace them one day. (X-Men Forever vol 1 #3)
Reality Warping, Dimensional Travel, Time Manipulation: White Phoenix amputates the Here Comes Tomorrow alternate future from the 616. She then travels to the White Hot Room as she holds the present in her hands. (New X-Men vol 1 #154)
Reality Warping, Dimensional Travel, Time Manipulation: White Phoenix amputates the Here Comes Tomorrow alternate future from the 616. She then travels to the White Hot Room as she holds the present in her hands. (New X-Men vol 1 #154)
Telepathy, Alternate Reality Access: White Phoenix speaks to Gabriel Summers from within the White Hot Room. White Phoenix of the Crown lives in the Nexus of Realities, so like Jahf, she can have the capability of looking into multiple realities across the multiverse. (What If? Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar)
Telepathy, Alternate Reality Access: White Phoenix speaks to Gabriel Summers from within the White Hot Room. White Phoenix of the Crown lives in the Nexus of Realities, so like Jahf, she can have the capability of looking into multiple realities across the multiverse. (What If? Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar)
Black Hole Manipulation: Jean prevents the event horizon from taking the X-Men. (X-Men Phoenix: Endsong #5)
Realm Closure, Transdimensional Telepathy: When Dark Phoenix Scott Summers tries ascending to the White Hot Room, Jean denies him access, considering how freely others have entered the M'Kraan Crystal and Brian Braddock accessed the White Hot Room. Since Jean's voice is heard from the otherside, it is apparent that the wall of white light that Scott describes is Jean keeping him out. Jean then thelps Scott to let go of the Phoenix. (Uncanny X-Men vol 2 #19; Avengers vs X-Men #12)
Subspace Travel, Cosmic Knowledge, Fast-Forward (aka Time Manipulation): White Phoenix pulls Wolverine from the reality and speeds up time to watch as the Earth goes from a desolate wasteland to a planet filled with planet life. (What If? AvX #4)
Reality Warping, Dimensional Travel, Visual Linking, Life-Force Manipulation: White Phoenix of the Crown erases an entire reality and uses the life-forces she collected to create a new reality. She pulls Scott into the White Hot Room and shows him a dystopian future through her eyes. (100th Anniversary Special: X-Men)
Total Reality Manipulation, Transcend Existence, Total Temporal Control, Being of Death and Rebirth: According to the Phoenix, with Jean grey and it bonded, they could become gods and Jean could do anything she can imagine, such as transcending existence or going back to a time of her choosing. (Phoenix Resurrection: Return of Jean Grey #5)

Life-Force Manipulation

Immortality: Phoenix has no place in deaths tower. (Classic X-Men #43)
Cosmic Awareness, Life-Force Manipulation: According to White Phoenix, she can feel the life-force of the cosmos flowing through her. (Classic X-Men #43)
Cosmic Awareness, Life-Force Manipulation: According to White Phoenix, she can feel the life-force of the cosmos flowing through her. (Classic X-Men #43)
Soul Transferal/ Afterlife Border: Jean leads her family to the White Hot Room. (Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #468)
Transdimensional Travel, Soul Carrier: Jean with Logan meets Nightcrawler and Amanda Sefton at a way-station between life and death. (Nightcrawler vol 4 #10)
Transdimensional Travel, Soul Carrier: Jean with Logan meets Nightcrawler and Amanda Sefton at a way-station between life and death. (Nightcrawler vol 4 #10)
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SladerAcer

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Hecate stalemated a being that oneshot lucifer, and she also had a stalemate with another being who transcends archangels and is comparable to the presence. Phoenix at best is LT lvl right ? She never stalemated a Toaa lvl being, so the w goes to whitch goddess,

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deactivated-629d3023b5b49

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Leaning towards Phoenix

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naknoemo00

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Hecate stalemated a being that oneshot lucifer, and she also had a stalemate with another being who transcends archangels and is comparable to the presence. Phoenix at best is LT lvl right ? She never stalemated a Toaa lvl being, so the w goes to whitch goddess,

Yeah I agree, I like Wpotc, she's a beast, but Hecate is above that.

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LordTwigo

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Hecate

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BroGokudestroys

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Phoenix Wright

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lazerbeak

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@geekryan said:

White Phoenix has better feats

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HumbleGuy

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Hecate stalemated a being that oneshot lucifer, and she also had a stalemate with another being who transcends archangels and is comparable to the presence. Phoenix at best is LT lvl right ? She never stalemated a Toaa lvl being, so the w goes to whitch goddess,

what beings are that?

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TheDevil98

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bump.

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SladerAcer

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HumbleGuy

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SladerAcer

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@humbleguy: nope

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presence had to merge with 2 other beings to fight,

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TheDevil98

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#24  Edited By TheDevil98
@sladeracer said:

@humbleguy: The other Kind and Rama Kushna

Rama Kushna or Rama Krishna? This is interesting as Rama and Krishna are two different avatars of Vishnu in original Hindu mythology.

Also isn't the being in the scan above called Pralaya? And who did Presence merge with to take her down?

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SladerAcer

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#25  Edited By SladerAcer

@thedevil98: Rama kushna is the name,

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my prev post in the last scan, judas(phantom stranger) and spectre used sin eaters magic blade to merge with the presence, to defeat sin eater. Sin eater walked away scott free in the end, and non seems unfazed.

In the 1st and 2nd scan yea that is pralaya,

and i did not know that about hindu mytho, the character rama might actually be based off of those deity's. (krishna/Kushna) pretty close .

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TheDevil98

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@sladeracer: Damn, there are so many outerversal beings in DC now. The scaling is getting pretty confusing. And yes, Rama and Krishna are both chanted together as Rama-Krishna in Hindu prayers as they are both avatars of Vishnu and thus ultimately the same Supreme Preserver of Creation.

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HumbleGuy

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#27  Edited By HumbleGuy

@sladeracer: hm interesting.

so Pralaya is above the Presence who is below the Sin Eater.

isn't that old news though?

I thought DC has some new cosmology.

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SladerAcer

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@thedevil98: nice I learned something new today. I’ve always wanted to learn more about Hindu mytho but never really had the time. Yes, dc scaling overall is confusing.

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Tedirey

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@sladeracer

Pretty much waht you said. I agree 100 percent.

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SladerAcer

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@humbleguy: Sin eater walked away Scott free in the end and was living in the subconscious of the thanagarians. i would put him above Pralaya yes. He has Nth metal which negates any form of magic, and pralaya lost to a magic being.

Pralaya> presence is old news yes, infinite frontier new cosmology doesn’t change that. He is still below a couple in the hierarchy,

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TheDevil98

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#31  Edited By TheDevil98
@sladeracer said:

@humbleguy: Sin eater walked away Scott free in the end and was living in the subconscious of the thanagarians. i would put him above Pralaya yes. He has Nth metal which negates any form of magic, and pralaya lost to a magic being.

Pralaya> presence is old news yes, infinite frontier new cosmology doesn’t change that. He is still below a couple in the hierarchy,

So, just curious. Where would you place TOAA in the new DC cosmology?

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HumbleGuy

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@humbleguy: Sin eater walked away Scott free in the end and was living in the subconscious of the thanagarians. i would put him above Pralaya yes. He has Nth metal which negates any form of magic, and pralaya lost to a magic being.

Pralaya> presence is old news yes, infinite frontier new cosmology doesn’t change that. He is still below a couple in the hierarchy,

I guess it depends on a match up. So who is the top dog in DC then?

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SladerAcer

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@tedirey said:

@sladeracer

Pretty much waht you said. I agree 100 percent.

right on brother,

@sladeracer said:

@humbleguy: Sin eater walked away Scott free in the end and was living in the subconscious of the thanagarians. i would put him above Pralaya yes. He has Nth metal which negates any form of magic, and pralaya lost to a magic being.

Pralaya> presence is old news yes, infinite frontier new cosmology doesn’t change that. He is still below a couple in the hierarchy,

So, just curious. Where would you place TOAA in the new DC cosmology?

i have him around the lvl of the presence,

@sladeracer said:

@humbleguy: Sin eater walked away Scott free in the end and was living in the subconscious of the thanagarians. i would put him above Pralaya yes. He has Nth metal which negates any form of magic, and pralaya lost to a magic being.

Pralaya> presence is old news yes, infinite frontier new cosmology doesn’t change that. He is still below a couple in the hierarchy,

I guess it depends on a match up. So who is the top dog in DC then?

i have dr.m as top dog, i don't know a character who can defeat him. He is like DC's PR beyonder,

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TheDevil98

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I guess it depends on a match up. So who is the top dog in DC then?

i have dr.m as top dog, i don't know a character who can defeat him. He is like DC's PR beyonder,

But isn't Perpetua above Manhattan? And didn't the Darkest Knight beat them both?

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SladerAcer

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#35  Edited By SladerAcer

@thedevil98: nah hes above them,

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The quintessence gathered a fraction of Dr.M energy, gave it to diana, and she almost killed perpetua.

The presence and the source can produce the same energy of Dr.M, so why the quintessence goes to an alien of DC for power instead of the gods they worship??

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yet izaya thinks the fraction of dr.m energy is more potent than the entirety of the source.

wally also had a fraction of dr.m energy. From the mobius chair. a fraction that made tdk more powerful than perpetua.

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Also when tdk absorb batmanhattan, perpetua immidiately dropped everthing she was doing and resorted to making deals with tdk.

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batmanhattan is bruce wayne, he tried to replicate the experiment but he did not have the same outcome. Ozymandias and others tried to replicate it, the same experiment and got bubastis, who is similar to batmanhattan. The thing about dr.m is that he became something called the quantum observer, basically god. and U can't replicate god with experiemnts,

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Justaxviel

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Hecate stomps, having a fire bird aura may give you some fanatic overhyped fans but it doesnt make you had the power over everything.

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raimundopedrosa

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@thedevil98: nah hes above them,

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The quintessence gathered a fraction of Dr.M energy, gave it to diana, and she almost killed perpetua.

The presence and the source can produce the same energy of Dr.M, so why the quintessence goes to an alien of DC for power instead of the gods they worship??

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yet izaya thinks the fraction of dr.m energy is more potent than the entirety of the source.

wally also had a fraction of dr.m energy. From the mobius chair. a fraction that made tdk more powerful than perpetua.

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Also when tdk absorb batmanhattan, perpetua immidiately dropped everthing she was doing and resorted to making deals with tdk.

No Caption Provided

batmanhattan is bruce wayne, he tried to replicate the experiment but he did not have the same outcome. Ozymandias and others tried to replicate it, the same experiment and got bubastis, who is similar to batmanhattan. The thing about dr.m is that he became something called the quantum observer, basically god. and U can't replicate god with experiemnts,

Didn't Perpetua showcase her superiority to Batmanhattan in this? Regardless, Hecate or Perpetua absolutely shreds White Phoenix of the Crown, with Perpetua also wrecking the Living Tribunal or even the preretcon Beyonder. Prerecton Beyonder loses to Perpetua after a good fight, the Living Tribunal gets absolutely wrecked by her, and White Phoenix of the Crown being compared to her is just pathetic by comparison.

And, of course as the other user down below mentioned, Hecate also curbstomps White Phoenix of the Crown. Hecate against the Living Tribunal would be interesting, tho even that seems to be favoring Hecate.

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SladerAcer

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@raimundopedrosa: Not really, she dropped all she was doing to focus her attnetion on bwl trying to make deals so at that point i would put them near each others power lvls, tho when tdk took wallys fraction he def became more powerful. Agreed with ur post, LT was never really great against magic powerhouses(Nebulos, shuma-gorath, sise-neg) so i honestly wouldn't see him beat someone like hecate.

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raimundopedrosa

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@raimundopedrosa: Not really, she dropped all she was doing to focus her attnetion on bwl trying to make deals so at that point i would put them near each others power lvls, tho when tdk took wallys fraction he def became more powerful. Agreed with ur post, LT was never really great against magic powerhouses(Nebulos, shuma-gorath, sise-neg) so i honestly wouldn't see him beat someone like hecate.

Oh wow, so would you put Dr. Manhattan also above the Living Tribunal?

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destinyman75

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raimundopedrosa

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@raimundopedrosa: lol Dr M above LT?? Lol no thats silly

That was exactly what I thought: Perpetua definitely above the Living Tribunal, and easily the same for Hecate, but Dr. Manhattan sounds like a huge stretch...

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SladerAcer

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#42  Edited By SladerAcer

@raimundopedrosa: dr.m is more powerful than both Tdk and perpetua.

>golden diana almost killed perpetua with only a fraction of dr.m's power.

> tdk became more powerful than perpetua by collecting another fraction separate from diana's.

> a nerfed dr.m oneshot the universe(metaverse) that contains perpetua, and she is a being who was imprison by a small part of that universe(Source wall)

> dr.m was called omnipotent by diana right after all this, in the infinite frontier comics.

Tdk and diana were only using a fraction, of the leftover energies found. a full powered dr.m is absurdly, ridiculously op.

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SladerAcer

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#43  Edited By SladerAcer
@destinyman75 said:

@raimundopedrosa: lol Dr M above LT?? Lol no thats silly

his aspect is above mxy, who is far more impressive than nebulos. A unprepped magic god that hard stalemated a prepped LT, what's silly is to compare them when dr.m is beyond concepts(magic,time, death) the LT isn't.

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raimundopedrosa

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@destinyman75 said:

@raimundopedrosa: lol Dr M above LT?? Lol no thats silly

his aspect is above mxy, who is far more impressive than nebulos. A unprepped magic god that hard stalemated a prepped LT, it would be silly to even compare them especially when dr.m is beyond concepts(magic) the LT isn't.

Hmm... interesting. I'll be follow you. Follow back, please?

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SladerAcer

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BroGokudestroys

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Sladeracer headcanon runs this site dry.

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BroGokudestroys

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Hecate beat Lucife!!!!!!!!! Pls pls belief me everboody!

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Zetsu-San

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#48  Edited By Zetsu-San

Hecate at the dawn of creation, might have a shot. But Hecate during the current timeline, is nowhere near her original power. Everyone arguing that she’s some all encompassing multiversal entity, completely missed the point of the story.

The entire Witchmark arc, revolved around Hecate trying to “take back“ magic.

  • If she were still the embodiment of the Sphere of the Gods, then other gods would not be capable of challenging her, they’d already be part of her.
  • If she were still the embodiment of all magic, she wouldn’t need to attack and take over leylines or places of power, they’d already belong to her.
  • If she were still the source of all spellcraft, she wouldn’t need to change the rules of magic to gain a resistance to it, she’d already decide when spells work and when they don’t.

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destinyman75

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callmebob

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Phoenix atm