Which One is Stronger? Magic or Science?

  • 68 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for tyln7001
Tyln7001

71

Forum Posts

211

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Poll Which One is Stronger? Magic or Science? (104 votes)

Magic 78%
Science 22%
No Caption Provided

 • 
Avatar image for tyln7001
Tyln7001

71

Forum Posts

211

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Which One is Stronger?

Avatar image for antebellum
Antebellum

2191

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Sometimes depends on the verse. but Magic overall.

Avatar image for shirso
shirso

10420

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Magic is simply science that is advanced enough to be far beyond present human comprehension :)

In fiction, depends on the verse and user I suppose.

Avatar image for yeimsick
yeimsick

851

Forum Posts

73

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Chaos Vs. Order

Avatar image for ready_4_madness
Ready_4_Madness

27541

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shirso: until Science figures it out, we’ll call it magic. In regards of fiction.

Avatar image for edgelord91
Edgelord91

7203

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

It honestly depends

Avatar image for ecoblitz
EcoBlitz

10467

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ready_4_madness: eh I disagree. Magic is magic in verses and science is science in verses.

Avatar image for hydratedfubuki6
HydratedFubuki6

9058

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Magic ignores physics, it does everything basically.

Avatar image for sar_annihilator
SAR_Annihilator

4068

Forum Posts

1173

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Magic does not obey the law of physics at all.

Avatar image for seastone98
seastone98

6232

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By seastone98

Which ever the author wants tbh

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@ecoblitz said:

@ready_4_madness: eh I disagree. Magic is magic in verses and science is science in verses.

Science is just the study of how things work. If magic exists, it would be considered a form of science by default.

Avatar image for cocacolaman
CocaColaMan

19164

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

There are a lot of different ways to answer this. Very vaguely, I'd say magic is stronger since it surpasses what we know to be humanly possible.

Avatar image for ecoblitz
EcoBlitz

10467

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@zetsu-san: magic is “do whatever I want” Magic is magic.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

Magic does not obey the law of physics at all.

If something can disobey the laws of physics then that would just mean that our current understanding of the laws of physics were flawed.

Avatar image for kasya_carey
kasya_carey

17502

Forum Posts

353

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By kasya_carey

It literally depends on the user and weapon.

There are techs are some verses that creates the laws of physics

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@ecoblitz said:

@zetsu-san: magic is “do whatever I want” Magic is magic.

Most magic systems are not "do whatever I want". In fact, I'd say that describes "super scientists" characters in fiction, more often than it does the wizards.

And even if a character could "do whatever they want", it doesn't stop it from being a science. Again, science isn't some sort of cosmic force, it's just the study of how things work.

Avatar image for syncroniam
Syncroniam

2070

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19  Edited By Syncroniam

that is a false dichotomy, different roles that can both be used same time, magic wins by default since it is not limited for the most part and it has many varieties and themes, so of course it wins, science is extremely limited in what it can do and it also uses magic as well

@Zetsu-San: Science is just the study of how things work. If magic exists, it would be considered a form of science by default.

That is simply not true, science is limited into studying specific repeatable phenomena in specific fields, the majority of the things that we study of how they work (such as business, history, art, psychology, sociology, politics etc) are not related to fields of science at all and they use very different methods, magic is a much broader concept that expands far beyond and including these

also in virtually every university that has multiple fields of study, the science classes are always the least popular ones and are almost exclusively to nerdy males (it is extremely rare to see a female interested in science) while the other fields (such as business, arts and marketing) have always the majority of the population and are for everyone, the irony is that even gender studies which is a relatively recent thing is more popular than fields such as computer science, not saying that this is good or bad but that's how it is,

moreover all of the scientists in the world combined make up less than 0.1% of the population, which is basically nothing, magic is the default

@shirso: until Science figures it out, we’ll call it magic. In regards of fiction.

your comment sounds like you are stuck in 19th century germany, there has almost never been something that science "figured out" that did not completely change later, science is a complilation of temporary and unproven theories that always change and get abandoned, so in that sense you can also call science a subategory of magic, if you want to go with that false dichotomy

Avatar image for supermanwin1875
SUPERMANWIN1875

1799

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Sometimes depends on the verse. but Magic overall.

Avatar image for macattack1
macattack1

717

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By macattack1

Completely depends on what magic and what science from what verse. But overall I’d say magic has the potential to be far more powerful because it’s only limit is the writers imagination, whereas science needs to have some sort of grounding in real-world physics which gives it limitations that magic doesn’t necessarily have.

Avatar image for betatesthighlander1
Betatesthighlander1

7936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 12

Well, magic doesn't "exist". But then again, neither does the kind of science we see in comic books.

Certainly science, in real life, has had a tremendous effect on how the world developed. But if you think that mysticism and magical thinking haven't vastly affected our social orders and hierarchies, you're about as smart as a flat Earther

in conclusion,

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for cosmic_reign
cosmic_reign

6559

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By cosmic_reign

I believe Cosmic can be considered a form of Super-Science in which even Magic is understood or a part of....

Avatar image for tyln7001
Tyln7001

71

Forum Posts

211

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Which One is Stronger?

Avatar image for comicgirl21
ComicGirl21

2311

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Magic by its very definition is stronger. Magic can do anything. It can change reality, control time, warp space, turn you into a frog, anything you need.

Science, whether its inventions or scientists or anything related, can only do whatever it is designed to do.

Science works within the rules set for the physical universe, even a fictional one.

Magic is nothing less than a PIS device for the writers to do whatever the hell they please.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#26  Edited By Zetsu-San
@syncroniam said:

@Zetsu-San: Science is just the study of how things work. If magic exists, it would be considered a form of science by default.

That is simply not true, science is limited into studying specific repeatable phenomena in specific fields, the majority of the things that we study of how they work (such as business, history, art, psychology, sociology, politics etc) are not related to fields of science at all and they use very different methods, magic is a much broader concept that expands far beyond and including these

Well, no... All of these things are still, by very definition, a form of science. They’re just what are referred to as “soft sciences”. They currently lack the mathematical preciseness of “hard science”, but they are still fields of scientific study, none the less.

The majority of magic systems involve the use of spells and rituals to yield consistent and precise results. This would classify it as a “hard science”. Especially when you consider one of the most commonly used tropes in magic, is the hermetic circle, which involves all sorts of mathematical calculations.

Of course, ”hard science” and “soft science” are just colloquial terms. They’ve also been called “natural science” and “human science”. Natural science being studies involving the various functions of the world, and ”human science” revolving around the interpretation of the human mind, which as we know are imprecise and subjective things... there’s no way to mathematically quantify it, yet. (that’s not to say predictions can’t be made).

Magic, if it exists, would be a function of the world, and thus would fall squarely under “natural science”.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#27  Edited By Zetsu-San
@comicgirl21 said:

Magic by its very definition is stronger. Magic can do anything. It can change reality, control time, warp space, turn you into a frog, anything you need.

Science, whether its inventions or scientists or anything related, can only do whatever it is designed to do.

Science works within the rules set for the physical universe, even a fictional one.

Magic is nothing less than a PIS device for the writers to do whatever the hell they please.

Fictional science does literally everything you described in that first paragraph of yours.

Magic is not a “pis devise”. The majority of stories involving magic, have developed rules and mechanisms.

In fact, more often than not, it’s fictional science that gets used as a PIS device. The fact is, science cannot do the majority of the things writers want it to do. Nor do most writers understand science well enough to fake it convincingly. So instead, they just make up whatever bullshit and go “because science”.

Just look at Doctor Who, Reed Richards, etc.

Avatar image for comicgirl21
ComicGirl21

2311

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@comicgirl21 said:

Magic by its very definition is stronger. Magic can do anything. It can change reality, control time, warp space, turn you into a frog, anything you need.

Science, whether its inventions or scientists or anything related, can only do whatever it is designed to do.

Science works within the rules set for the physical universe, even a fictional one.

Magic is nothing less than a PIS device for the writers to do whatever the hell they please.

Fictional science does literally everything you described in that first paragraph of yours.

Maybe in some verses. But I'm obviously talking about majority here. Most of the time, magic can do nearly anything, while science sticks closely to reality.

Magic is not a “pis devise”. The majority of stories involving magic, have developed rules and mechanisms.

That's just not true. Like I said above maybe there are some verses out there that developed proper rules for magic, but nearly ALL of mainstream fictional universes that have magic, just use it to do whatever the hell they please in any given situation. Bestseller novels with magic like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, most popular movie series with magic like Star Wars, MCU, DCEU, most popular anime/manga with magic like Dragon Ball, Bleach, Berserk... Magic in all of those universes makes no sense whatsoever, it can do literally anything, it's constantly used as a PIS device to move the plot along and any "rules" said magic supposedly has are contradicted on constant basis, and I can easily prove it, you name the verse.

In fact, more often than not, it’s fictional science that gets used as a PIS device. The fact is, science cannot do the majority of the things writers want it to do. Nor do most writers understand science well enough to fake it convincingly. So instead, they just make up whatever bullshit and go “because science”.

Anything can be a PIS device, naturally. But magic is just a PERFECT example of the PIS device, especially when compared to what most verses call their "science". At the very least, science needs to feel and look reasonable and explainable. If a writer conjures a Teletubby out of an ants ass and has his characters call it science, the chances are, his readers will completely lose their suspension of disbelief. But if he calls it magic, well, it suddenly doesn't seem so crazy after all, doesn't it.

Avatar image for hellothere5432
hellothere5432

1962

Forum Posts

23

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Magic.

Avatar image for deactivated-61a94331705e8
deactivated-61a94331705e8

8774

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

In the past sometimes new discoveries/inventions were labeled as "magic/sorceries due to how groundbreaking they were. In fiction it depends on the verse and genre I guess.

Avatar image for jucaslucasa
Jucaslucasa

730

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Loading Video...

Magic can't handle science of this level.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#32  Edited By Zetsu-San

@comicgirl21:

Maybe in some verses. But I'm obviously talking about majority here. Most of the time, magic can do nearly anything, while science sticks closely to reality.

I'm sorry, but when does science in fiction stick "closely to reality"? When science is realistic and well developed in fiction, it's called "Hard Scifi", which is not a popular genre at all. Even stories that aren't supposed to be scifi at all, end up having some rather ridiculous elements in them. Just look at Bones and that time their supercomputer EXPLODED when analyzing a corpse, because there was a computer virus "carved into the bone". That's not "close to reality".

nearly ALL of mainstream fictional universes that have magic, just use it to do whatever the hell they please in any given situation. Bestseller novels with magic like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia

Harry Potter isn't the most well developed system in the world, but there is still a system there. Magic in HP functions through the use of spells and each spell performs a very specific task/function. While we don't know "every spell" that exists in the HP-verse, characters are pretty consistent in what spells they tend to cycle through, giving us a pretty good idea of what to expect. I can only think of a few instances in HP that I'd consider to be egregious instances of "PIS".

Lord of the Rings magic isn't poorly developed, it's just vague. The whole story is told from the perspective of the Hobbits who have no understanding of magic whatsoever, so there's no reason that the innerworkings of magic would ever get conveyed to us. Not to mention Gandalf himself is restricted and not allowed to use his full power, outside of specific instances.

I've never been interested in Narnia so I can't comment on that, but from my understanding, the story involves entities responsible for the very creation of the worlds and their laws, so obviously they'd be capable of virtually anything.

most popular movie series with magic like Star Wars, MCU, DCEU

All three of those are scifi stories first and foremost, and the scifi aspects make even less sense than the magic ones. Seriously, in what way does a man getting blasted with radiation and gaining the ability to shapeshift into a giant green monster make sense? What about the alien who can absorb sunlight to fly, shoot lasers, and lift massive objects without said objects collapsing under their own weight? Is that more logical than the magic?

But magic is just a PERFECT example of the PIS device, especially when compared to what most verses call their "science". At the very least, science needs to feel and look reasonable and explainable. If a writer conjures a Teletubby out of an ants ass and has his characters call it science

Your username is COMICgirl and you're on a COMIC website. You're obviously not unfamiliar with the superhero genre, so I don't know why you're pretending this doesn't happen ALL THE TIME. Superpowers are almost always claimed to be "scientific" and yet there's never any logic in what sort of superpowers someone can have or how they can gain them.

At least with magic, characters have a set of spells that they consistently use, and a logical explanation of where that energy comes from.

But if he calls it magic, well, it suddenly doesn't seem so crazy after all, doesn't it.

Magic doesn't exist in the real world, so obviously in a fictional context it can do things that we'd consider impossible. That doesn't mean it's PIS in the context of the setting.

When writers introduce magic, they are essentially developing an entirely new field of science unique to their setting. Writers are not perfect, there's obviously going to be contradictions and holes, especially given that they have to balance developing that and writing the actual story.

When it comes to science and technology, most writers don't even try. They just know that they want "X cool thing to happen" and they want it to be "real world sciency," so instead of developing a new system to explain why this works, they just make up some BS using a bunch of words they don't even understand.

Even in marvel where magic really can do virtually anything, I still feel like I have a better understanding of what someone like Doctor Strange is capable of, than I do Reed Richards or Hank Pym.

Avatar image for kalebsmarty156
Kalebsmarty156

5125

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Science. Magic is trash nonsense

Avatar image for syncroniam
Syncroniam

2070

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By Syncroniam

It seems like the person who made this thread (Tyln7001) has been constantly posting the same comment here "which is stronger" in order to bump it and then deleting the comment 2 minutes later, he did it just now and he has done it at least 13 times, if he did not do that this post would not even have any comments at all but probably he is trying to trigger people on purpose, there needs to be a way where the deleted comments can be shown when they are abused to bumb dead threads

@zetsu-san said:

Well, no... All of these things are still, by very definition, a form of science. They’re just what are referred to as “soft sciences”. They currently lack the mathematical preciseness of “hard science”, but they are still fields of scientific study, none the less.

Magic, if it exists, would be a function of the world, and thus would fall squarely under “natural science”.

That does not make any sense, it falls into the absurdity that if everything is something then nothing is something, if everything is science then nothing is science because it becomes an absurd term (and as stated scientists are less than 0.1% of the total population which is nothing), and it seems really strange that you go so hardcore with the walls of text to defend something so unpopular that already has overwhelmingly lost the vs battle as seen in the poll, magic is a much more stable, popular and versatile concept and encompasses many themes (arcane, light, darkness, fire, water, earth, wind, spirits, void etc), also as stated before, the majority of the fields of study are not even related to science in the first place, (such as business, history, art, psychology, sociology, politics etc), in practice, the science fields are actually few and very unpopular in universities and are almost exclusive to nerdy males (very rarely a female will care about science), they always have the fewest people in terms of degrees, the most popular degrees are business, marketing and art related

@zetsu-san said:

Fictional science does literally everything you described in that first paragraph of yours.

In fact, more often than not, it’s fictional science that gets used as a PIS device. The fact is, science cannot do the majority of the things writers want it to do. Nor do most writers understand science well enough to fake it convincingly. So instead, they just make up whatever bullshit and go “because science”.

You are possibly the only person that has said that, virtually 99,9% of the times that something supernatural happens in anime or manga (or somewhere else but anime and and manga are the majority and have everything while the minorities also tend to have manga versions as well) it is always because of magic, even when science is used in a supernatural way such as sword art online and god eater it is still engulfed in magic because science by itself is incredibly limited and temporary, someone who reads almost anything in anime or manga they will always have magic in their mind by default

@zetsu-san said:

Magic doesn't exist in the real world, so obviously in a fictional context it can do things that we'd consider impossible. That doesn't mean it's PIS in the context of the setting.

That is a really bizarre opinion (that magic doesn't exist), considering that the vast majority of the population would disagree with you, you must remember that western countries are less than 6% of the world's population and ironically even in those countries Islam is the fastest-growing religion and the muslim population is increasingly replacing the declining natives, so that outdated western 19th century materialistic philosophy from germany did not survive for long

@betatesthighlander1 said:

Well, magic doesn't "exist". But then again, neither does the kind of science we see in comic books.

What exactly do you mean by "exist"? Because the vast majority of the population would disagree hard with that opinion, if by exist you mean by touch or seen, most of the things that we take by granted daily cannot be touched or seen either (such as morality, ethics, truth, the laws of logic etc) but they still exist and are independant of humans, same goes with magic which uses sources from other dimensions to function

@kalebsmarty156 said:

Science. Magic is trash nonsense

This is one of these comments where the person who posts it knows that they are wrong beforehand and they post it in defeat anyway in an attempt to trigger people , not sure how exactly this situation is called

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#35  Edited By Zetsu-San

@syncroniam:

That does not make any sense, it falls into the absurdity that if everything is something then nothing is something, if everything is science then nothing is science because it becomes an absurd term

Except that science refers specifically to the study of how things work. A rock is not science. The study of how that rock is formed, its chemical makeup, and the organization of the various types of rocks into their own classifications, is a science.

Magic is a much more stable, popular and versatile concept and encompasses many themes (arcane, light, darkness, fire, water, earth, wind, spirits, void etc)

In order for civilization within the story to have broken down magic down and organize it into all these different themes and classifications, they would have to study it using the scientific method Thus, it would be a form of science.

(such as business, history, art, psychology, sociology, politics etc), in practice, the science fields are actually few and very unpopular in universities and are almost exclusive to nerdy males (very rarely a female will care about science), they always have the fewest people in terms of degrees, the most popular degrees are business, marketing and art related

Again... All of these things are quite literally referred to as Social Sciences. Look up the term. That is literally what they are considered.

Any time you study and breakdown the innerworkings of a phenomena, using the basics steps of the scientific method, it becomes a science. That's literally what it is.

And again, magic (if it exists) would not fall under any sort of soft or social science, it would be a function of the world, and thus be considered a "natural science".

You are possibly the only person that has said that, virtually 99,9% of the times that something supernatural happens in anime or manga (or somewhere else but anime and and manga are the majority and have everything while the minorities also tend to have manga versions as well)

And virtually 99.9% of the time a comic story involves superpowers and superheroes, the writers attempt to explain it "scientifically". Oh, he got speedforce by being struck by lightning during an experiment. Oh he can turn into a giant green monster because he got blasted with gamma radiation. He has superhuman physical abilities and minor precognition because he got bit by a "radioactive spider". He can move things with his mind because "evolution". He can grow big or small, because he built a high tech device. He can hack anything by typing really really really fast on a keyboard.

Avatar image for tauio
tauio

2248

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shirso said:

Magic is simply science that is advanced enough to be far beyond present human comprehension :)

In fiction, depends on the verse and user I suppose.

Avatar image for tokfasiq
tokfasiq

8

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Depends. but more lenient towards magic.

Avatar image for rhubarb
Rhubarb

2191

Forum Posts

2227

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@syncroniam:

Not engaging in this thread's topic at all.

But psychology is definitely a science and has been a scientific discipline for over a century. It's common to think that public psychology is a good representative of psychological science, but it is not. I can see why you would think that and group it with social sciences, which are technically sciences but not in the same meaning as you guys are debating.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@syncroniam:

then deleting the comment 2 minutes later, he did it just now and he has done it at least 13 times, if he did not do that this post would not even have any comments at all but probably he is trying to trigger people on purpose, there needs to be a way where the deleted comments can be shown when they are abused to bumb dead threads

You can see people bumping threads that way btw. If someone were making and deleting posts, you'd see skipped numbers in the left corner of the comments.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#40  Edited By Zetsu-San
@rhubarb said:

@syncroniam:

Not engaging in this thread's topic at all.

But psychology is definitely a science and has been a scientific discipline for over a century. It's common to think that public psychology is a good representative of psychological science, but it is not. I can see why you would think that and group it with social sciences, which are technically sciences but not in the same meaning as you guys are debating.

The meaning of science that I was using, was the broad and basic definition, which is simply the study of how things work. In which case, social sciences would fall under that. I understand that the innerworkings of social sciences aren't as concretely defined as natural sciences are, and did bring up that distinction as well.

Of course, if you want to use a stricter definition of science, "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

The study of magic would still fall under that, if it existed.

Avatar image for kalebsmarty156
Kalebsmarty156

5125

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kalebsmarty156 said:

Science. Magic is trash nonsense

This is one of these comments where the person who posts it knows that they are wrong beforehand and they post it in defeat anyway in an attempt to trigger people , not sure how exactly this situation is called

Please refrain from unnecessarily tagging me. With the amount of shitpost trolling you do on here, your words hold quite literally zero value to me.

Avatar image for rhubarb
Rhubarb

2191

Forum Posts

2227

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@rhubarb said:

@syncroniam:

Not engaging in this thread's topic at all.

But psychology is definitely a science and has been a scientific discipline for over a century. It's common to think that public psychology is a good representative of psychological science, but it is not. I can see why you would think that and group it with social sciences, which are technically sciences but not in the same meaning as you guys are debating.

The meaning of science that I was using, was the broad and basic definition, which is simply the study of how things work. In which case, social sciences would fall under that. I understand that the innerworkings of social sciences aren't as concretely defined as natural sciences are, and did bring up that distinction as well.

Of course, if you want to use a stricter definition of science, "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

The study of magic would still fall under that, if it existed.

Completely agree.

Avatar image for stalker_2
stalker_2

1094

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#43 stalker_2  Online

Science cuz real .

Avatar image for jucaslucasa
Jucaslucasa

730

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

You can look at something like the MCU and see what their science can do:

  • Grow really small by reducing the distance between your atoms, which allows you to become smaller than atoms.
  • Travelling through time by getting really small.
  • Using gamma rays to turn a normal guy into a super strong green monster whenever he's angry.
  • Using vita rays and some drugs to turn a small weak dude into a big buff dude in seconds. It also sometimes make your face look like a red skull, and might make you insane.
  • Make a thin metal helmet that somehow stops the person inside from dying when they get hit by tank shells and gods punching them.
  • Get bit by a spider and gain the powers of a spider.
  • Anti-gravity devices, black hole bombs, devices that make surfaces intangible, etc.
  • Turn your body into basically magma that allows you to regenerate from massive injuries, and sometimes makes people explode.
  • Make electric shock devices that stun the guy who coats himself in lightning to fight.
  • Very impressive brainwashing that can turn you into a killing machine with a few words.
  • Vibranium . . . just vibranium.
  • Turn invisible and intangible through "molecular disequilibrium."
  • There's a virus that lets you mind control people with your voice, and it also through phones at the end.
  • Get blind and gain super echolocation that's basically better than vision.

Basically magic, really.

Avatar image for comicgirl21
ComicGirl21

2311

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@comicgirl21:

Maybe in some verses. But I'm obviously talking about majority here. Most of the time, magic can do nearly anything, while science sticks closely to reality.

I'm sorry, but when does science in fiction stick "closely to reality"? When science is realistic and well developed in fiction, it's called "Hard Scifi"

Obviously I meant their reality, the reality of said verse. For example, in Star Wars, the inventions like the hyperdrive, the lightsaber a blaster all have their in-verse explanations, you can find general explanations as to how they work, what fuels them and how are they built, even which materials are used. That's a hard contrast to SW's magic system, that simply doesn't exist. Characters who can use magic, like the Dathomir witches, can just pull anything out of their ass no matter how completely unrelated to all the other mechanics of the verse it is, simply everything the story needs them to pull off, like creating zombies, voodoo dolls, possessing bodies of other, you name it.

nearly ALL of mainstream fictional universes that have magic, just use it to do whatever the hell they please in any given situation. Bestseller novels with magic like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia

Harry Potter isn't the most well developed system in the world, but there is still a system there.

I honestly hope you are joking. What system? You gotta be kidding me.

Magic in HP functions through the use of spells and each spell performs a very specific task/function.

Oh, you are not kidding. Okay, let's have that conversation. Is that right? Spells? What about countless examples of wizards doing magic without invoking any spells? Like Dumbledore putting the flames on and off with his hands and such? What about magic objects, magic plants and magic animals? What about non-wizards? Demenoths do not need to cast spells to use magic. House elfs do not need to cast spells to use magic. The spell system is just a front for a complete and utter chaos when it comes to HP's magic system. There are no rules to magic if you take as much as five minutes to stop and think about it.

I can only think of a few instances in HP that I'd consider to be egregious instances of "PIS".

Lmao, yeah, those are just a few tiny moments right, it's not like there are entire deus-ex-machina magic devices like the Time Turner that somehow have some insane cosmic level power, appear to fix the plot and then disappear and then we never hear about them again. Please.

Lord of the Rings magic isn't poorly developed, it's just vague.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? Vague rules = can do anything. Gandalf can make fiery explosions and move objects with his minds, but not teleport to Mordor. Sauron can see through earth and flesh but not when he needs to find Frodo a couple miles from mt. Doom. Galadriel can see the future, but not any useful spoilers, that would actually help. Nazgul can turn you into a ghost, but only after a couple days, exactly the amount of time needed to get you to a magic hospital.

The whole story is told from the perspective of the Hobbits who have no understanding of magic whatsoever, so there's no reason that the innerworkings of magic would ever get conveyed to us.

Is that another joke or something? Gandalf, an actual wizard who casts spells, is one of the main characters and we follow him from day 1 when he visits the hobbits in shire to the last moments of Return of the King. There is every reason to have a proper magic system, but there just isn't one.

Not to mention Gandalf himself is restricted and not allowed to use his full power, outside of specific instances.

What does that have to do with anything? Gandalf can use magic, and plenty of other characters like Saruman, Sauron, Elrond, Galadriel and etc can use magic, and there are NO rules!

I've never been interested in Narnia so I can't comment on that, but from my understanding, the story involves entities responsible for the very creation of the worlds and their laws, so obviously they'd be capable of virtually anything.

Well, I'm not exactly keen in that verse either, but I know enough to know there are no consistent magic rules whatsoever.

most popular movie series with magic like Star Wars, MCU, DCEU

All three of those are scifi stories first and foremost,

What?

It's a known fact that Star Wars is not a science fiction genre at all. It's a saga about good magical warriors trying to fullfill prophecies about destroying evil overlord wizards and about good magic being stronger than the evil one. Yeah its set up in the background of high-tech space adventure, but magic is still the main context and frame for the entire story. Magic may not be called explicitly magic, but force IS magic, just look at what the likes of Mother Talzin can do with "the force". It goes WAY beyond pushing around objects. And even what the jedi and the sith can do with the force borders on magic vast majority of the time. Energy field my ass, midichlorians, my ass. It's magic, and really can do whatever needs to be done in the story if you take a closer look. DUH.

DCEU? Wonder Woman and every movie related to Diana is about magical warriors and mystical gods. Suicide Squad is about some evil witch trying to conquer the world with magic. Aquaman is about a guy looking for a magical harpoon. Shazam is about a guy receiving magic powers from a wizard. Yeah there are some aliens and other stories unrelated to magic, but FIRE AND FOREMOST SCI-FI? Bruh. Oh, and did I mention, THERE ARE NO RULES?

MCU? Dude, Thor, Thor 2, Thor Ragnarok are all tales about magical people living in cosmos doing magic. Ther are other major magical characters who have entire movies dedicated to them too like Doctor Strange. Avengers is about an evil wizard guy coming to Earth to wreck the world. Avengers 2 is about a robot, but even he has to hire a witch and her brother to help him out. Whether or not infinity stones should be considered magic or not may be debatable, but even if we put that subject completely aside, magic playes a HUGE roles in the MCU, and once again, there are no rules to magic. Take a closer look, it makes no sense whatsoever, everything magical that happens just happens to move the plot along.

and the scifi aspects make even less sense than the magic ones. Seriously, in what way does a man getting blasted with radiation and gaining the ability to shapeshift into a giant green monster make sense?

Well in the comics Hulk is connected to an entire different dimension of reality via gamma radiation so there is more or less a scientific-like explanation to his existence and for the experiments going the way they did. But there are still explicit rules to the Hulk even in the MCU. Banner needs to be angry to make Hulk's persona and powers surface. When Hulk is KO'd or falls asleep, he turns back to Banner. Hulk won't suddenly appear when Banner laughs. And Hulk won't suddenly turn to Obama when he gets hurt. Hulk powers may be a dumb idea but it still is a relatively simple and science-based concept. There's the source of the energy (gamma radiation) there's frames within which Hulk works.

What about the alien who can absorb sunlight to fly, shoot lasers, and lift massive objects without said objects collapsing under their own weight? Is that more logical than the magic?

Obviously it is. Superman can't suddenly absorb darkness or shoot confetti from his eyes. His strength is explained with his muscles being super-powered, his heat-based powers like lasers are explained by him absorbing solar energy to produce them. It's not a hard sci-fi concept, but it's nowhere near as convoluted as magic.

But magic is just a PERFECT example of the PIS device, especially when compared to what most verses call their "science". At the very least, science needs to feel and look reasonable and explainable. If a writer conjures a Teletubby out of an ants ass and has his characters call it science

At least with magic, characters have a set of spells that they consistently use, and a logical explanation of where that energy comes from.

Where does the magic come from in all of the universes that I mentioned? And I already showed there are no rules to so called spells.

Magic can have a good system and become science-like. And similarly, science can become laughably vague and nonsensical to the point of it basically becoming magic. But vast majority of the time, science is set up with simple frames and concepts grounded in reality of said verse, things easy to understand, while magic is just a PIS device that's vague and can really do anything that needs to be done if you think about it.

And OT - yeah, because of that, it is stronger.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

38273

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@comicgirl21:

You're conflating the lack of a full explanation on something, with it "not making sense" or "being capable of anything". You can take a look at any given field of science and find tons of things that we don't know or don't fully understand. The further back in history you go, the less any of these fields are understood. That's not even getting into the knowledge levels of individuals (which are how stories are presented to the audience).

Just because you don't understand how computers work doesn't mean computers don't make sense or are "capable of anything". Just because you don't understand biology doesn't mean it "doesn't make sense" or that any organism can exist and be capable of anything. Not understanding chemistry doesn't mean it doesn't have rules or that anything can be done.

Again, when you introduce magic into a story you are literally introducing a brand new field of science. It's completely unreasonable to expect an entire field of study to be fully explored and fully understood. Let alone for all of that to actually get conveyed to a singular character, while also leaving room to tell an actual story.

Obviously I meant their reality, the reality of said verse.

So you can accept that a fictional setting can have technology that is completely unrealistic, inconsistent, improperly uses real-world concepts, and capable of whatever the writers decide is necessary for the story to; but you're not okay with the idea that a fictional setting can have access to a brand new and versatile energy source such as magic?

For example, in Star Wars, the inventions like the hyperdrive, the lightsaber a blaster all have their in-verse explanations, you can find general explanations as to how they work, what fuels them and how are they built, even which materials are used.

Ah yes, space technology in Star Wars. So logical. So well explained. That's why:

  • Ships can arc their blasts, in space, where there isn't enough gravity to constitute an "up" or "down".
  • A ship can apparently use hyperspace to crash through a fleet of ships at light speed, despite hyperspace supposedly being a separate dimension and ships in hyperspace never colliding with celestial bodies. Oh and not only is this possible, but no weapon technology was built around this concept!
  • Oh yea, and ships can stop using "air breaks" even though there's not enough air resistance in space to do such a thing, let alone in hyperspace.
  • Apparently hyperspace isn't even needed. One can travel LIGHT YEARS of distance, at sub ftl speeds, within the span of a few days.
  • Oh and Han Solo, a completely normal human, can perfectly time his FTL ship to manually exit hyperspace inside the atmosphere of a planet.
  • And blaster bolts? Definitely an efficient weapon to mass produce. Way better and easier than just using conventional firearms... >_>

Characters who can use magic, like the Dathomir witches, can just pull anything out of their ass no matter how completely unrelated to all the other mechanics of the verse it is, simply everything the story needs them to pull off, like creating zombies, voodoo dolls, possessing bodies of other, you name it.

I don't know how Star Wars handled or explained it's spell system. The Force is a SENTIENT energy that responds to the thoughts and wills of those connected to it, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that the collective will of an entire culture of force users, can influence the way the Force behaves for them and cause structured spells to form.

90% of zombie stories are explained as some sort of virus or radiation, that can somehow keep dead flesh alive, prevent decay, and requires the destruction of the brain to kill permanently. How does that make sense?

Is that right? Spells? What about countless examples of wizards doing magic without invoking any spells? Like Dumbledore putting the flames on and off with his hands and such? What about magic objects, magic plants and magic animals? What about non-wizards? Demenoths do not need to cast spells to use magic. House elfs do not need to cast spells to use magic.

How is any of this an issue? Again, you're conflating the limited ability to explain every facet of an entire field of study, to said field "not making sense" or "being capable of anything".

It was explained that spells can be cast non-verbally. The use of a focus such as a wand, and the various spell components, make it easier to cast spells, but it's possible to do so without them if one has enough practice in controlling their power.

The spell system wasn't something that everyone just spontaneously knew about, it had to be discovered through experimentation. Magic existed before a structured spell system, it's just harder to control and yield precise results, but it was already shown that there is an entire school dedicated to using unstructured magic.

Magical creatures are just that, magical creatures. Obviously they have their own adaptions that let them use magic in their own way. It's not world breaking to assume that such a thing exists. There are real world animals that can generate electricity and use it to shock things, does that break the logic of our world because we have to use technology to do that?

Lmao, yeah, those are just a few tiny moments right, it's not like there are entire deus-ex-machina magic devices like the Time Turner that somehow have some insane cosmic level power, appear to fix the plot and then disappear and then we never hear about them again. Please.

I didn't call them "tiny moments". The word I used was "egregious". Writers aren't perfect. Sometimes they write stupid things.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? Vague rules = can do anything.

No, "vague rules" does not mean it can "do anything". If you go back a few hundred years, chemistry or "alchemy", as it used to be called, had very vague rules to it. That doesn't mean it's "capable of anything". The people who practiced alchemy just didn't have a proper understanding of it's mechanisms, and thus didn't understand what it's actual limitations were or why certain things worked and not others.

Gandalf can make fiery explosions and move objects with his minds, but not teleport to Mordor.

Literally a rule within the story. Gandalf CAN teleport, but he gave up this ability when he descended to the material plane and took up a physical form.

Sauron can see through earth and flesh but not when he needs to find Frodo a couple miles from mt.

He was distracted by what he perceived as the bigger threat. If this were an AI with a high tech surveillance system that can also see "through Earth and flesh", would it make more sense to you?

Galadriel can see the future, but not any useful spoilers, that would actually help.

So? You can make vague predictions about people by reading their body language and tone of voice, but the results are often vague and not always helpful.

How does the imprecision of something, make it not make sense? Because it's plot convenient? "Plot convenient" things coincidentally happen in the real world all the time.

Nazgul can turn you into a ghost, but only after a couple days, exactly the amount of time needed to get you to a magic hospital.

Again, why is this an issue? Because it's convenient to the plot? What if this were a poison or disease that can kill you but "only after a couple days", and "exactly the amount of time needed to get you to a medical hospital"?

Is that another joke or something? Gandalf, an actual wizard who casts spells, is one of the main characters and we follow him from day 1 when he visits the hobbits in shire to the last moments of Return of the King. There is every reason to have a proper magic system, but there just isn't one.

Being a main character does NOT mean that the story is being told from their perspective. The entire framing device for Lord of the Rings is centered around the idea that it's all just stories being told by Frodo and Bilbo with unknown levels of accuracy in regards to what actually happened.

What does that have to do with anything? Gandalf can use magic, and plenty of other characters like Saruman, Sauron, Elrond, Galadriel and etc can use magic, and there are NO rules!

We do not view the story from the perspective of these characters. Just because the movies follow them for scenes here and there, doesn't mean that they are characters the audience are meant to insert themselves into and have and equal level of knowledge with.

It's magic, and really can do whatever needs to be done in the story if you take a closer look. DUH.

Yes, because the technology within Star Wars totally doesn't do whatever the story needs, right? Sidious definitely didn't secretly building a bunch of start destroyers and entire death star, deep underground of a deserted planet, without anyone noticing.

DCEU? Wonder Woman and every movie related to Diana is about magical warriors and mystical gods. Suicide Squad is about some evil witch trying to conquer the world with magic. Aquaman is about a guy looking for a magical harpoon. Shazam is about a guy receiving magic powers from a wizard. Yeah there are some aliens and other stories unrelated to magic, but FIRE AND FOREMOST SCI-FI? Bruh. Oh, and did I mention, THERE ARE NO RULES?

Superman started the setting and everything will likely tie back into him and his set of alien villains.

Also, Aquaman wasn't supposed to be magical. Atlantis was explicitly a tech based society that discovered an "unlimited power source" and somehow they are able to harness it to do whatever the hell they need it to do, purely with "technology". You associate him with magic, because magic would go a long way to explain why their "infinite power source" is so versatile.

And really, all of these characters have the same basic powersets as Superman, with some slight alterations.

MCU? Dude, Thor, Thor 2, Thor Ragnarok are all tales about magical people living in cosmos doing magic.

  • MCU started with a guy building a high tech suit of armor and a miniature fusion reactor, in a cave, with a bunch of scraps that a bunch of third world terrorists managed to gather for him. Said suit of armor is somehow durable enough to take hits from tank shells, and can protect the person inside from getting splattered by concussive force from hits, or G forces from flying around. Oh, but sometimes it can be destroyed from getting hit by a truck, and apparently it can also fit inside of a suitcase and later even fit inside of a watch or nuclear reactor/artificial-heart, without any of these things being absurdly heavy to carry or move around.
  • The next movie in MCU was a guy who got blasted with radiation and gained the ability to turn into a giant green monster.
  • Then there's also the dude who was given an injection then blasted with radiation, and went from scrawny to a buff body builder in the span of minutes.
  • The Asgardians were originally framed as just aliens using technology. This never made sense and things only started to feel somewhat believable, when you think of them as actually being magic users, and magic just being some sort of cosmic energy force that they've learned to utilize through thousands of years of experimentation.

Well in the comics Hulk is connected to an entire different dimension of reality via gamma radiation so there is more or less a scientific-like explanation to his existence

lol really? That's a "scientific-like" explanation to you? Being connected to a dimension of unlimited energy, ruled by the devil himself, is a "scientific-like" explanation? Magic almost always described as either a natural force of the universe, or some sort of energy from another dimension... or both together.

They literally decided that the radiation explanation was stupid and declared that it "was magic all along" and that's what's holding together your suspension of disbelief.

You're just proving my point now.

Banner needs to be angry to make Hulk's persona and powers surface. When Hulk is KO'd or falls asleep, he turns back to Banner. Hulk won't suddenly appear when Banner laughs.

  • He's "always angry" but stays as Banner.
  • He's almost turned into Hulk because he was having sex.
  • He's partially turned into Hulk to stop a zombie bite. (without being angry)
  • And he's also turned into Hulk directly after being KOed/Killed as Banner, twice.

And really, even if Hulk were completely consistent and absolutely never used as a plot device, it wouldn't change the fact that there's absolutely no way to explain any of the things he's capable of, while strictly using real world "science-like" concepts.

Again, declaring it's magic and comes from "another dimension" is literally what lets it make sense.

There's the source of the energy (gamma radiation) there's frames within which Hulk works.

How? How did the gamma radiation not completely destroy his cells? Where does the biomass come from when he transforms into Hulk? Why are his powers anger activated? Where does that biomass go when he calms down and reverts to Banner?

Why does the framing source of it being "radiation" make sense but not a framing source of "magical energy" nt make magic work?

Radiation isn't some sort of metaphysical concept. It's just charged light particles that are moving really fast.

At least magic is something inherently new and speculative and thus it's capabilities are inherently malleable to the needs of the setting.

Obviously it is. Superman can't suddenly absorb darkness or shoot confetti from his eyes. His strength is explained with his muscles being super-powered, his heat-based powers like lasers are explained by him absorbing solar energy to produce them. It's not a hard sci-fi concept, but it's nowhere near as convoluted as magic.

What biological process allows Superman to absorb and store solar energy? What biological process allows him to fly? What biological process allows him to fire his stored energy from his eyes in the form of lasers? What biological process lets him superpower his muscles?

Not convoluted as magic? Lets test that. Lets compare him to Shazam. Literally, the exact same powerset, just "lightning" instead of solar.

What's more convoluted? That Shazam was given a versatile energy source such as magic, that functions differently from our current understanding of reality, and allows him to do a variety of things?

Or that Superman, through sheer coincidence, evolved a whole bunch of complex biological processes that allow him to store solar energy, shoot lasers, fly, and supercharge his muscles? Remember, when going with a "science-like" biological explanation, all of these things require completely separate mechanisms to work. And not only did he evolve all of these mechanisms, he did so completely coincidentally with no environmental stressors to push things in that direction (Remember, Kryptonians don't have these powers in their own environment).

Avatar image for northstrider
northstrider

91

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

In the context of fiction they're the same thing. You have advanced aliens that can create and control every aspect of whole multiverses. And gods or devils who can do the same thing.

Avatar image for kh0rn3
Kh0rn3

906

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Magic

Cause i ain't a nerd

Avatar image for tyln7001
Tyln7001

71

Forum Posts

211

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Which One is Stronger?

Avatar image for _philosoraptor_
_Philosoraptor_

736

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

cosmic characters like Silver surfer are more powerful than some magic users, and some magic users can stomp silver surfer characters, in just depends.. I don't think The one above all/Top god characters count because they tend to have magic and science/cosmic powers except for rare exceptions.