When was Batman at his physical prime in The Dark Knight trilogy

Begins.

He was trash in the other 2.

Begins. The thug thing is a huge low showing IMO. The guy was kicking through bricks when he was at his worst.

He was the exact same in Begins and TDK, and close to his peak after escaping the Pit in TDKR.

@rbt: I myself cannot believe that he was held down by that goon,especially when he was able to fight more than a dozen armed men in Begins.

Wasn't he sporting a mechanical knee brace during that scene?

He was. But all it did was bring functionality back to his legs. It didn't boost his strength or anything.

Logically The Dark Knight would have been his prime, by out of all the films in the trilogy he has the worst feats in that.

So technically speaking...his legs weren't at their "worst"

Begins.

@rbt: What thug thing?

@lubub55: In BB he was around 30 years old,which is usually considered the peak physical age for a man,plus he had the best physique in Begins.

Thanos wins.

Why wouldn't they be? I doubt a brace brought him back from limping to 100%.

He got tackled and overpowered by a random thug in TDK, IIRC.

It realigned the bones as well as increasing the structural integrity.

Based on WoG (by Nolan) and TDKR novel, TDKR is his prime.

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Personally he always seemed at his best during Begins. More comic-bookish and supernatural. Maybe the implication was that he’s in his prime during TDK and that he got his mojo back during the end of Rises, but the actual choreography declines to the point he looks a lot worse off against inferior opponents than the League of Shadows ninjas. His feats feel lackluster in comparison.

Bane is stated superior to Ra's by Nolan and novelization. Batman scaling to Bane puts him above Ra's and by extension his Begins self.

@frozen said:

Based on WoG (by Nolan) and TDKR novel, TDKR is his prime.

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What does the novel say about Batman/Bane during the second fight with Bane? IIRC while the fight was close, Bane still had the clear upper hand. until Batman cut the mask.

@dstreet45 said:

@frozen said:

Based on WoG (by Nolan) and TDKR novel, TDKR is his prime.

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Bane is stated superior to Ra's by Nolan and novelization. Batman scaling to Bane puts him above Ra's and by extension his Begins self.

What does the novel say about Batman/Bane during the second fight with Bane? IIRC while the fight was close, Bane still had the clear upper hand. until Batman cut the mask.

Bane still has the upper hand in the novel but its definitely closer in the novel than the film. That said, Batman did break Bane's grip in the film when Bane caught his punch. So they were relative in strength.

@frozen: Ah, okay. Do you think the armor being lighter than Begin's might factor into this?

Either way I think you're right, TDKR Batman should be his physical prime.

A few years ago I was convinced that Begins was his prime. But then I remember the fact that Batman actually MATCHED Bane strength in TDKR

And as forth mentionned by Frozen, WOD and novel support the fact that this feat is legit. So yeah, as weird as it might seems Batman was at his strongest when he was old after doing some push ups and climb training. Bane feats and portrayal clearly makes him far stronger than anything anyone did in the previous movies ( in terms of pure physical might) he is boderline superhuman or a low superhuman.

I think the lighter armour benefits him.

Post prison TDKR Batman > TDK Batman > Begins Batman > Pre prison TDKR Batman.

Although I can see an argument for Begins being better than TDK, post prison TDKR Batman being his peak makes sense given the WoG etc.

Post-prison escape TDKR Batman

By feats/scaling, TDKR. Narratively, probably some time between TDK and TDkR

Batman Begins. Is the weakest in the first half of TDKR

@kryptonianking88: I don’t think there was any time between TDK and TDKR where Batman was active. The night of Dent’s death is his last confirmed sighting and it seems pretty clear that Bruce hasn’t really been doing much in that time. Alfred and even Bruce himself say that he’s retired. Plus his limp seems like it was caused by the fall when he was saving Gordon’s son, as we see him staggering away at the end of the film and he’s still limping when we see him again in Rises.

Its implied he was still active after TDK for a short while. Alfred says that it's been a while since he saw him in that bat cave and that cave wasn't constructed in TDK.

Also I think KK probably meant to say between BB and TDK.

Per Nolan and novelization, TDKR second half is his peak.

@frozen: It didn’t say Batman was at his most powerful. It said Bane was the most powerful villain.

@herculean: @kryptonianking88: @a_fine_edition: @zafros13:

Just tagging those who I think may have vague interest in this.

Per Christopher Nolan, Batman of The Dark Knight has fighting skills "far beyond" anything seen in Batman Begins. Source: The Art and Making of The Dark Knight Trilogy:

Also note his new batsuit makes him "much more effective":

He is "faster and more agile" in his new batsuit. So any notion of Begins Batman being faster is one shotted:

Bane being noted as stronger and faster than Ra's is significant because per this book (which interviewed Nolan and is signed off by him), Batman is a "physical match" for Bane:

Batman is "equal in strength" to Bane:

So if anything, Begins Batman is lesser than TDK Batman and post prison TDKR Batman.

It says Bane is physically his most powerful villain. Same book says Batman is a match for Bane.

Nolan also puts TDK Batman over Begins Batman.

Fight choreographer of TDKR says the fights "surpassed the other two" and that Batman and Bane are "very evenly matched":

Oddly enough it’s probably TDKR, Post-Lazarus Pit escape I would think

@frozen: Batman is also evenly matched with Ras.

Bane is stronger than Batman. Bane was seemingly more skilled in their final fight. Bane was getting more hits in. Batman has a protective suit that helped him tank damage (makes him more sluggish too though probably). Batman won after dislodging the mask tube with his gauntlet.

Ras got the upperhand on Batman by pinning him down after an extensive fight.

Bane has Ras’s skill with extra strength.

It's not that odd when you consider the intent of the film is to push Batman to his physical limits:

Looking at the Art and Making Book, Begins Batman comes off looking worse than either TDK or post prison TDKR.

Yes, a Ra's who is stated to be weaker and slower than Bane. So Batman went from being matched by someone who is sub Bane to then matching someone who is above Ra's. Which means that he grew.

Only saw your edit now.

Bane is not stronger. Batman overpowered his grip. They're stated as equals in strength a number of times in book. Bane's advantage was his pain tolerance. Batman broke Bane's grip and then sliced the tube.

Batman had a much more restrictive suit against Ra's, which is acknowledged by Nolan himself.

There is nothing unambiguous about the text. It plainly says Bane > Ra's and Batman = Bane. Not to mention the quote putting TDK Batman above Begins. The suit makes a much bigger difference than previously thought.

@frozen: “The suit makes a much bigger difference than previously thought.”

We always knew what the suit did. The movie told us it’s “lighter, faster, more agile, with the trade off of making him “more vulnerable to knives and gunfire.”

However a suit is different then a person. If Bruce the person got slower, the new suit would only then make up the difference. Now skill wise it wouldnt make to much sense for Bruce to have gotten less skilled between BB and TDK (though I think he’s in worse shape, perhaps less sharp). But it is logical for him to have gotten less skilled between TDK and TDKR because that happens when you take breaks. Durability and strength also impact fighting effectiveness, with high durability it’s hard to distrupt your offense, strength allows you to perform tecniques better (I think Begins is when he’s the physically strongest)

“Batman overpowered his grip”

That’s not how fights work. There is so much stuff that comes into play. I’ve overpowered people who are stronger then me. If your leverage is hypothetically equalized (which is basically never) you can over power them with speed because they don’t expect it and don’t brace, and you don’t puts the same amount of overpowering effort in at all times (you turn up your effort when it’s most needed) Not to mention disproportionate strength of differing muscle groups (like I can do 95 pushups in a row, but have weak fingers, and somewhat weak back muscles,) and having to remember to use as many muscle groups as you can in the moment.

“Yes, a Ra's who is stated to be weaker and slower than Bane.”

I can’t find your source. The one I’ve seen before says he’s more physically imposing (to paraphrase)

They’re all powerful fighters and can take on each other in a fight. However Bane is the most formidable of all of them but is seemingly the worst in terms of agility.

@frozen: nice.

@frozen: I think it's relevant to point out that Bruce was already injured before his fight with Ra's even began. On top of having a flaming pillar fall on top of him (which is visibly shown to cause significant bleeding) he then fought a handful of ninjas and then was dangling from the train when this happened:

https://i.imgflip.com/7hnlsk.gif

So I imagine he's really not 100% going into the fight.

TDK would make the most sense.

@zafros13:

We always knew what the suit did. The movie told us it’s “lighter, faster, more agile, with the trade off of making him “more vulnerable to knives and gunfire.”

However a suit is different then a person. If Bruce the person got slower, the new suit would only then make up the difference.

Nothing indicates he got slower. The choreography being fast in BB was supposed to illustrate the criminal PoV. He's still fast in TDK. Per Nolan, the fighting is "far beyond" in TDK than Begins.

So either he is saying that TDK was us seeing what he was able to do before, or he is saying that his skills are actually now far beyond. Both of these stances prove that BB Batman is not above TDK Batman. I lean towards the latter because he intentionally cites the newer suit allows him to move "much more effectively". Emphasis on the word 'much' '- the suit significantly helps him in combat. The OOU reason for its change was canonized IU. So TDK Batman is as equally skilled and strong as Begins, but "much more effective" due to being "faster and more agile":

Now skill wise it wouldnt make to much sense for Bruce to have gotten less skilled between BB and TDK (though I think he’s in worse shape). But it is logical for him to have gotten less skilled between TDK and TDKR.

There is no indication he became less skilled. In fact TDKR choreographer plainly indicates he is a better fighter because the fights "surpass" the other two and are "taken one step further":

That’s not how fights work. There is so much stuff that comes into play. I’ve overpowered people who are stronger then me.

This is exactly how strength contests work. They are locked in a strength contest and Batman overpowers his grip. Also numerous statements saying they're equals in strength:

I can’t find your source.

Bane is referred to as a "physical monster" by Nolan in a way in which Ra's is explicitly acknowledged not to be. Also explicitly stated to be weaker and slower than Bane:

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While that is debatable, it's clear based on sources provided that TDKR post prison is. Unless you equate them as being the same.

It's certainly possible and interesting point I've not seen raised before. But I'm not sure if this is the intent, because the choreographers for BB say Bruce and Ra's are evenly matched and don't seem to really factor in the idea of him being injured beforehand.

@frozen: regardless of the intent I feel it should be factored. Otherwise, they're deciding that these injuries either just magically vanished in the span of an hour or so, or that they didn't influence the fight in any way at all, which is kind of silly. If they're evenly matched, then the injury is likely what tipped things in Ra's favor. That and the fact Bruce actively turns away from his opponent at one point to try and stop the train, giving Ra's time to recover and get some hits in.

As for the choreographer's thoughts on the fights being better in the last film, I find that a matter of opinion and subjective at best. Nolan's films struggled with the fight scenes in general, but the ones in TDKR make Batman look clumsy, slow, and almost uncoordinated. Plus in TDK he got tagged by a mook in a clown mask that Joker flung at him.

I will grant you that Bruce wasn't fully focused in the train fight. Regarding his durability, it definitely seems that its underrated. In TDKR, he withstands pillar busting punches from Bane and then gets stabbed between the plates. But he seems to magically shrug it off and have enough focus for the chase sequence. And then on top of that, presumably jumps out into the river and swims to shore. Regardless of whether or not he was fully healthy against Ra's, I think Nolan's comments on his suit are enough to solidify TDK and post prison TDKR Batman's superiority.

Well I think intent is more important than the subjective view on how the fights looked. They clearly intended the fighting in TDK and TDKR to be better. The choreography is supposed to convey an improvement.

I don't put much stock into the Joker goon moment. Everyone has moments of weakness, even the best fighters. And to be honest, its even more of a low showing when you consider the fact that pre prison TDKR Batman (who is outright stated to be post prime) is able to fight mercenaries without being tagged. Same mercs he refers to as being "trained killers". And yet a superior Batman was tagged by Joker goon.

@frozen: fair enough. I’m looking at it from more of a casual standpoint to be fair. But I’m just really not sure how they can justify the choreography being “superior” when half the time Batman’s staggering around like a drunkard or reeling from a hit. Even his first outing against Falcone’s men is more favorable than the fundraiser scuffle with Joker’s goons. He leaps right into the center of a crowd of opponents and takes them all down in a matter of half a minute at most.

Even the casual fodder opponents in BB sound more threatening and dangerous. Ninjas are commonly treated as superior fodder despite normally using inferior weaponry like swords, the difference in weaponry usually being what denotes their superior skill. If they can beat trained gunmen with nothing but swords and throwing stars, then clearly they’re intended as the cream of the crop.

@frozen: “far beyond" in TDK than Begins.”

He’s talking about presentation. We could barely see the fighting in BB.

“So either he is saying that TDK was us seeing what he was able to do before, or he is saying that his skills are actually now far beyond.”

It’s definitely the former. In the next sentences he says the combat was “obscured” in Batman Begins which is true.

“So TDK Batman is as equally skilled and strong as Begins,“

I don’t think the site likes to use this as evidence but in BB Bale is physically more stronger and visibly more muscular which makes me think he’s stronger.

And BB has his best speed feats with him getting around the predator field super fast, and him taking enemies out faster.

The choreography in BB is unwatchable from the standpoint that you can't actually see anything. The choreo is bad and the cuts just disguise it. Going by Nolan's words there is really nothing to indicate Batman declined as of TDK, and if anything more evidence to show he improved due to new suit.

If we go purely by feats and ignore other stuff, I'd still say post prison TDKR Batman is peak. Bane has strength feats which border superhuman, such as pillar punch or effortlessly cracking a man's neck with one hand. And Batman goes on to withstand this Bane's punches and overpower his grip. The physicality in the previous films was nowhere near as impressive. Tbh even Bruce healing his back is a feat lol.

Also narratively speaking, Bane is just outright stated to be the ultimate test for Batman's physical limits.

Interview with Nolan from Deadline 2011:

“With Bane, we are looking to give Batman a physical challenge that he hasn’t had before,” says the film’s director, Christopher Nolan

I like Batman Begins a lot, but I think there's more than enough evidence to one shot this notion that its his prime. Even from a narrative PoV I would reason that he's a rookie in BB, and he couldn't even sneak up on Scarecrow. Compare that to the way Batman deals with him in the opening of TDK - as just being another day in his life.

@frozen: I wouldn't say it's unwatchable. The cuts are masking some of the shoddier stuff, but I still think it's pretty solid. I'd even go as far to say the fight with Ra's at the end of BB is probably the best fight in the series. Either that or the latter half of the 2nd fight with Bane after his mask is cut, where he goes berserk and the speed and intensity actually ramps up. Also, doesn't Bruce sneak up on Scarecrow several times? I know he gets hit by his gas the first time, but he was fighting another dude and even then he managed to swipe the fumes away from his face very quickly. The second time around Scarecrow hides behind a set of stairs, leaps out, and Batman intercepts his attack while dealing with another goon and then casually gives him a taste of his own medicine. It's a pretty similar amount of disregard as in TDK (where he also is given serious trouble by some dogs), and Crane even gets taken out by Rachael with a taser later on in the first movie. Besides that first encounter he's treated like a non-threat or a pawn by virtually everyone.

It's difficult to tell what's going on in BB. I think the Ra's fight is pretty good, but the other stuff isn't. This is where it gets subjective, because to me the SWAT scene in TDK and first Bane fight looks a lot better than what we saw in Begins. This is why I value choreographer and director statements over our subjective judgements. I think we are in agreement that the choreography is not a strong point of these movies from a subjective PoV, but in the eyes of the creators, the choreography was supposed to progress throughout the three films. The choreo was supposed to convey skill, speed etc. Nolan just isn't a good action director so it's quite poor compared to other films.

But going by what we have been told by the filmmaker and choreographers:

• Choreography change was supposed to reflect what Batman was previously capable of, but now his TDK batsuit makes him "much more effective"
• Bane is Batman's ultimate physical challenge, stated superior to Ra's. He is the ultimate physical test for Batman and "pushes his physical limits" in a way he hasn't been before

So Batman in TDK is more or less as skilled as he was in BB, slightly less durable but considerably more agile and much quicker. Not to mention experienced. Batman in TDKR is past his prime prior to the prison, and then regains his fighting spirit and comes back stronger than ever. So the scaling seems clear to me.

As for Scarecrow, yeah he becomes fodder. But point is Batman in BB has a worse batsuit, is getting the hang of things and has much to learn. He's not as hyper effective as he is later on. I don't think BB Batman can rep the SWAT scene, for instance.