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#1 Posted by GrandTOAA (743 posts) - - Show Bio

Logically, Fire melts ice, water quenches fire and ice freezes water. But in anime and comics, they don't always adhere to that. So logically, what counters time Manipulation? No dragon ball style of powering out here because the opponent is far stronger. Just logical explanation

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#2 Edited by SC (17971 posts) - - Show Bio

GrandTOAA marked this as the best answer

Some of your premises are a bit off... fire is a chemical reaction, the process of fire doesn't always melt ice, melting is a transitional process that occurs when its internal energy increases. Fire as heat can do this, to get ice to its melting process, and then a solid can can melt to a liquid. So logically speaking, we have various processes that can affect each others chemical states, usually with varying effect depending on certain factors. I mean ice can melt naturally in open air, fire can be extinguished by denying it combustable compounds and oxidants, water can also fuel fire because of this, I don't want to go on, I am sure you get the point...

To view this as combative, or as 'countering', is to oversimplify and maybe even assign human behavior/identity to non human processes. A better term to use as how you are applying it and speaking about as such, would be symbolically. So I apologize for being pedantic, I do get what you mean, generally. The interactions you described can and do happen, just the process isn't as one sided, such processes are usually experiencing their own changes or interactions independent of each other anyway, how that can be described by us, can be multiple, and sometimes those descriptions can actually be antonymous. Fire diminishes ice, or fire feeds ice energy. Ice suffocates fire or ice shelters fire (think igloos) traditionally, when we think of elements overcoming each other in a cyclical one sided sense, like say a lot of fiction, RPG's, anime, games, comics, its symbolic... not without some elements of truth, because of our observations on such phenomena, which again, can and does happen, bur because of the simplification of processes that we know from science, are much more complicated.

Apologies again, I have to mention all this, because there is no logical counter to time manipulation. time is a measurement, in fiction, time, like anything and everything, can be presented and portrayed in a manner incompatible in reality. It can be exaggerated or presented in a way not reflected by science or logic. In many fiction it often is, because the rules of reality, space and the universe can be ignored, broken, what have you whilst maintaining the illusion of existing. What this also means is that time, as a variable, can be wildly inconsistent, not just from writer to writer, story to story, character to character, franchise to franchise, but even within an individual writers understanding and portrayal, it can be wildly inconsistent and hard to view with any sense of objectivity or consistency.

Thus fictional characters in fictional settings who are given an ability to manipulate this fickle, inconsistent, potentially misunderstood variable, may be vulnerable to many types of ability and power commanded by other fictional characters, or immune... or resistant... it would depend on the whims of the creators and the willingness of those reading/interpreting the fictional narrative to accept the portrayal.

If a time manipulator accesses their abilities by conscious thought, then any powers and abilities that can supersede or bypass their ability to use conscious thought could be their undoing. Which could be many many many different and diverse powers and abilities, including time manipulation itself. If the time manipulators powers work by area of affect, then those outside its area of affect could exploit that limitation.

So even symbolically, there isn't really one singular well defined 'counter' though there could be a certain elegance in suggesting that space manipulation or orientated powers counter time manipulation powers and importantly, vice versa, for a nice balancing affect. Or like 'elemental' counters, you create a balance, by considering what time counters, having that property be a counter to another property/power and then having that be the counter to time. Aka paper, rock, scissors.

Interesting thread and posts too.

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#3 Posted by Mister_Surreal (7722 posts) - - Show Bio

Being anchored into the time stream or some type of reality manipulation power.

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#4 Posted by ovy7 (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

Acausality, or existing outside of time, basically makes time manipulation against you useless.

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#5 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (3771 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 said:

Acausality, or existing outside of time, basically makes time manipulation against you useless.

This or advanced reality warping

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#6 Posted by Smokak (616 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess being fast enough if its just slowing down time

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#7 Posted by Rustlingjimmy (1053 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 said:

Acausality, or existing outside of time, basically makes time manipulation against you useless.

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#8 Posted by seastone98 (4541 posts) - - Show Bio

IDK what if ur a time traveler? Can't u just travel to a point in the past or future where time ISN'T being manipulated? Meh.....just a thought

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#9 Posted by Enemybird (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

super speed.

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#10 Posted by Lord_Titan_ (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically reality warping or time transcendence

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#11 Posted by Richubs (3372 posts) - - Show Bio

Reality warping or probability manipulation.

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#12 Edited by green_skaar (12004 posts) - - Show Bio

As others noted reality warping, that's how FR dealt with his grandfather effortlessly.

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#13 Posted by King-Ragnar (3475 posts) - - Show Bio

Better Time Manipulation.

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#14 Posted by Supermanthor (13428 posts) - - Show Bio

Being anchored into the time stream or some type of reality manipulation power.

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#15 Posted by Aqualion0 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

Omnipresence.

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#16 Posted by demonbane (99 posts) - - Show Bio

temporal lock.Existing outside of time.

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#17 Edited by demonbane (99 posts) - - Show Bio

temporal lock.existing outside of time

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#18 Posted by GrandTOAA (743 posts) - - Show Bio

I can understand reality warping, but Does Super speed/light speed movement really counter time manipulation?

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#19 Edited by Wanderez (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

Standing outside of time, reality warping, destiny manipulation, probability and casualty manipulation, conceptual manipulation. Ofc, some if not all of these depend on the degree of the time manipulation.

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#20 Posted by YOA_501 (685 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by ourmanuel (9423 posts) - - Show Bio

Quite a few things actually:

1) MCU Thor

2) The almighty

3) MCU Cap’s motorcycle feat

ok seriously, it’s probably something like existing outside of the bounds of time, a higher form of time manipulation, or a higher form of reality warping.

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#22 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

This is overkill. Anyone with 4th Dimesional power can ultimately negate all Time Manipulation. The reason is that a 4th dimensional being, in theory, has already witnessed and has access to all of the events from the very first instance of time to the very end. And inherently has experienced everything the time manipulator has tried to manipulate. But, to answer the question the poster has specifically, the logical counter to time control is nonlinearity. Which in Physics is the absense of linear potential.

A reality warper who can become nonlinear is the opposite of Time and Forward Momemtum. In that scene, The cosmic armor was peering through a flat window. It was meant to show you that the infinite DC Orrery of Worlds and all the dimensionality inside of it was a flat nothing space to the Monitor Sphere. Here, the very next scan, you can see the Thought Robot's hand arched toward a flat looking nothing plane of existence. Like a 3D space looking into a 1D flat plane. So too, however many dimensions make up Limbo and all of the rest of the Orrery inside, are just a 1D nothing to Nil. It was also showing that the Cosmic Armor exists in omnipresence locals, not just one place at once. It was in all places at the same "time", watching and looking through the 1D plane window, walking toward the other Monitor and also already talking to the other monitor at the bottom of the page.

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"The Dying GOD left your universe broken, wounded and defenseless."

@rustlingjimmy said:
@ovy7 said:

Acausality, or existing outside of time, basically makes time manipulation against you useless.

No Caption Provided

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#23 Posted by GrandTOAA (743 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Matthew660 (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

Being transcendent, 4th dimensional+, or omnipresent.

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#25 Posted by Thoromdil (1802 posts) - - Show Bio

There are several counter to time manipulation that's been known throughout the fiction.

Some of them include:

Time immunity/Immortality. There are many fictional characters who went beyond time by achieving actual immortality or other forms of immunity to effects of time. To them time manipulation is pretty much useless. They are stuck in the same state of their being indefinitely because of their ability or magic that makes them immortal. You can not make them younger or older, time alteration is useless against them. A good example can be Merlin from SDS. Her ability "infinity" makes not just her physical body but all of her abilities timeless and never ending. A good example of her using this to beat time manipulation is her fight vs grayroad, who has a power to "age to death" anyone who kills another being in his presence. Merlin is not affected by his power, because her magic makes her immortal. That simple.

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4th and above dimensional characters. Time is a concept of a 3-dimensional reality, so another good example of fictional characters who can defy time manipulation is a simple list of characters who exist outside of the 3-dimensional reality. There can be a huge list made for characters like these, which includes majority of cosmic entities from comics but for a good example look no further then into Batmite and Mxy comics, these guys do not just go outside of their own perceived dimensional reality, they actually go outside their omniverse and even visit our world at times. Though this makes no sens, clearly fictional time manipulation can't be apply on them, if they can even leave not just their dimension but their

own stories completely at will.

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Probability manipulation. It's a direct counter to time manipulation when you logically think about. Characters who have probability manipulation powers, can deny other characters using their abilities effectively. This includes their ability of altering time. They can simply make them fail by altering the consequences of the actions they take. A good example of a wielder of that power is Bleach Yhwach. His ability "Almighty" is the power to change the consequences of actions of everyone and anything that happens. This includes his own death and anything else you can think of, like any efforts of manipulating time.

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Toonforce. Though this may be obvious, toonforce is a power far greater then time manipulation, and it clearly holds an authority over it. Characters utilizing the toonforce can alter the entire spectrum of their story. Take Buggs for example, who has a LOT of very impressive feats using the toonforce to it's limits. If you'd turn him into a tiny rabbit or make him age into dust via time alteration, he would just awkwardly stare at you for a second and then he would do something like pretend to blow a baloon or smh and come back to his previous state via that. That's just how toonforce works. These characters can sorta do whatever, they are ABOVE the story that's been told, kinda like cosmic entities from comics that I mentioned when explaining 4th and above dimensional characters. Buggs doesn't really care if you burn him o death or shoot him into space, he'll just come back anyway with a bored expression on his face. Well anyway, it's a clear he wouldn't care about you manipulating time on his ass either.

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Hax immunity. Then there are characters who have specific hax immunity, or ability to fight off hax with their inner energy. Again, to give you a good example, let's take Jiren from Dargon Ball. He's just a big strong dude, like a MA trained Hulk or what not, but he does have a specific anti-hax ability that allows him to deny all manner of abilities used by other dragon ball characters, which includes dimensional crossing, invisible attacks, time jumping and apparently, time alteration as well. He did just kinda "shrug off" the efforts of manipulating time on him by breaking through the ability itself with his sheer power. There are also many other characters who can resist hax in a similar manner but you get the point.

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Time stasis. Finally we have characters who can enter a form of timeless stasis. This can be achieved with a variety of abilities but for the record let's take Zoom, who used the Speedforce to achieve that. He was shot in the head during events of Flashpoint, and to not die, he froze time completely on himself in the moment before his death, and simply continuous his life frozen in time like this, with a gaping hole through his brain. Maybe there are better examples of stasis, but that's just off the top of my head.

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And finally... other, but stronger time manipulators. duh. When you have a physically strong character, obviously one of the characters who counter him are those physically stronger then him too. For example, in marvel you have several ways to alter time and many, many characters who can alter time, which would include even Thor who could travel through time using Mjolnir in the past comics. BUT there is the time gem, which holds the ultimate authority above all time manipulation abilities like those. If you have a time gem, you will be a better time manipulator then Thor and in the contest of manipulating time, you will simply outdo him in his own game and win. Kinda obvious but I thought I will bring that too at the end.

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#26 Posted by Mortein (6026 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaio Ken x 10

😁

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#27 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (4556 posts) - - Show Bio

Pure speed can, (goku, the flash) also I’d imagine space manipulation works as a counter due to it basically being immune to the effects of time (warp engines, marvel space gem powered speed) and any form of casualty manipulation, dimensional travel or reality manipulation can undo/bypass its effects

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#28 Posted by Hope_w (2602 posts) - - Show Bio

Omnipresence completely negates time manipulation.

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#29 Posted by Amendment50 (15111 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember Superman once beat a guy who could slow time by accelerating so fast he was outpacing the time manipulation.

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#30 Posted by JohnnyZ256 (6410 posts) - - Show Bio

Where are the mods? This isn't a battle.

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#31 Posted by JuzaCloud (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: great post. Well said with different examples.

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#32 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos' or Darkseid's pimpslap.

They both say stop it.😂😂

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#33 Posted by demonbane (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@demonbane: What's temporal lock?

being beyond time.Can`t timestop someone beyond time

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#34 Posted by beatboks1 (9818 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu said:

This is overkill. Anyone with 4th Dimesional power can ultimately negate all Time Manipulation. The reason is that a 4th dimensional being, in theory, has already witnessed and has access to all of the events from the very first instance of time to the very end. And inherently has experienced everything the time manipulator has tried to manipulate. But, to answer the question the poster has specifically, the logical counter to time control is nonlinearity. Which in Physics is the absense of linear potential.

Pretty much this

Though I would point out in reality it's a 5th dimensional and above as our universe actually is 4th dimensional.

Given that the first three dimensions are height, width and depth. The fourth being time, in our universe we move in time in a linear way ergo the next dimension it's no longer linear. In the 5th dimension beings would as easily move through time as one in our universe does through depth and width and height. As such there isnt a need to talk about non linier as that is what the 5th dimension is. Or as we refer incorectly to our universe as only 3 dimensional the 4th.

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#35 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7042 posts) - - Show Bio

5th dimensional powers and speed that basically outpaces time itself.

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#36 Edited by Sungsam (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

More potent time manipulation and time manipulation resistance.

You guys do realize that our Universe is literally 4 dimensional right? We are four dimensional beings because we move through time. Being 4 Dimensional is nothing special, because we require time for movement and change, just as we need the first three spatial dimensions of height, depth and width to move around. Stop using VSBattles logic.

We do not control everything in the first three dimensions, neither do we control the fourth.

Time is also very much intertwined with Space, and anyone who can manipulate Time is literally manipulating the duration and change of space and constructs within space itself. Time in itself is also technically space manipulation, but chronological aspect of space manipulation. Time and Space are very much intertwined, sometimes technically in fact the same construct, but intertwined at the very least.

So sometimes, Space Manipulation can be used to counter and nullify the change manipulation affects of Time Manipulation.

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#37 Posted by XLR87T3 (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandtoaa: @sungsam: You can also turn it around, and say that space is literally manipulating the extant and change of time and objects within time itself.

Space can counter a time manipulator, since they are on the same tier, only reason they don't is because there's so many different time manipulators in comics ranging from street-low mid tiers to abstracts, and barely any non-abstract pure space manipulators.

Here's how a space manipulator can screw over a time manipulator, and it's not as hard as people try to make it:

Scenario 1

Time Guy freezes time, walks over to kill the Space Guy

Time Guy never makes it to Space Guy despite being only 10 feet away

Scenario 2

Time Guy goes back in time to kill him, Space Guy manipulates the spatial barriers that separate different timelines to forever, so Time Guy is trapped and dies. Or, Time Guy gets to the time period, but his space is 10 miles underground on the other side of the globe.

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#38 Posted by Godren (3607 posts) - - Show Bio

Jiren

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#39 Posted by RanaProGamer (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely, Dimension Hoping, especially if the user doesn't need to create a portal to do so.

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#40 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15364 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. Some really good answers in this thread. Sometimes CV honestly impresses me.

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#41 Posted by XLR87T3 (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

@ranaprogamer: How does that beat time control? The guy can just go back in time and kill the dimension manipulator as a baby

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#42 Posted by BrownZeus (882 posts) - - Show Bio

It suprises me that nobody has mentioned magic yet. I will tely on quotinh someone more eloquent for this.

Source: https://www.quora.com/Can-space-and-time-be-separated

"No. Space and Time are concepts.

Space is the concept of dimension in three directions at right angles to each other. Without any 'object' to measure it, space is dimensionless... that is, it ceases to be 'space' as defined.

Time too is a concept that has meaning only in relation to an object. Without any change in an object there can be no time."

By this explanation we can say that A human that can manipulate time can basically make it so that they can rewind space to previous states, halt space's change or accelerate space in relativity to their own conciousness or being. Some time manipulation users allready can be considered to trancend time because they can prevent themselves from being affected by the change in the space they take part in to any given degree such that they themselves are the same from any natural change to the natural course of time.

If we take a spell that forcefully keeps things/individuals with time manipulation powers to adhere to the natural course of changes in space then essentially you can have time manipulation powers negated.

Such magic can basically be called a time lock that closes individuals to each upcoming change in space and therefore time.

This is probably gonna be the first and last post I am ever gonna make on time manipulation. It really is hard to explain these meta concepts we take for granted, I cant believe how much time I spent trying to correctly write a post that may be completely non-understandable by my phrasing. Anyways I have thrown i way to much time in to this post just to scrap it. Tear it to pieces if you want to.

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#43 Posted by AntitheticalOpinion (228 posts) - - Show Bio

True Amortality

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#44 Edited by Sungsam (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

^

There are many magic spells in fiction based on Time Manipulation. And magic based Time Manipulation.

This thread was not needed. Stronger Time Manipulation beats Time Manipulation.

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#45 Edited by BrownZeus (882 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I think it is an OK thread but it was posted i the wrong subsection.

What you say is pretty obvious. Any command can be overruled by a command of even greater authority.

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#46 Posted by RanaProGamer (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: The OP asked what can counter Time Manipulation, not beat it. So I think Dimension Hoping can counter Time Manipulation by hoping to different dimensions to avoid getting stuck in a time loop or something, or better sending the Time Manipulation user into a dimension in which his powers can’t be used, for example, in a dimension where time doesn’t exist.

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#47 Posted by XLR87T3 (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Sungsam (2180 posts) - - Show Bio
@brownzeus said:

@sungsam: I think it is an OK thread but it was posted i the wrong subsection.

What you say is pretty obvious. Any command can be overruled by a command of even greater authority.

Sure, but the OP wasn't clear.

There are many levels of Time Manipulation, including that of Multiversal ones. So if we are talking about Multiversal Time Manipulation for example, you would need to have Multiversal feats to counter that regardless of which variant of 'manipulation' you need, then you can worry WHICH variant of reality manipulation can be used.

To me, the medium doesn't matter, so long as it distorts reality with proper control and is equal in potency to the Time Warper. Any form of offensive Reality Manipulation can counter Time Warping so long as the writer of a fictional character makes the two powers stand on equal ground and it doesn't matter if it is Space Warping or Toon Manipulation or whatnot.

I will further point out that Beyonder can use water manipulation to destroy time manipulation of low level characters. That is just as much as a valid answer because, let's be real here, because your question was not clear, neither does it seem to be obvious to the people speaking in this thread because we are talking with Powerlisting Wikia perspectives rather than battle board perspectives.

Because let's be honest, how Time works and how Time manipulation works literally changes depending on the fiction we are talking about.

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#49 Posted by Tethadam (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

Super Speed counters slowing down time.

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#50 Posted by Darkthunder (735 posts) - - Show Bio

Reality warp