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Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) 1 year, 6 months ago

Poll: What is the most well-matched fight in SW? (81 votes)

ROTS Darth Sidious vs Yoda 46%
Mace Windu vs Count Dooku 26%
ROTS Obi-Wan vs SOD Darth Maul 10%
AOTC Obi-Wan vs AOTC Anakin 5%
ANH Darth Vader vs ANH Ben Kenobi 4%
Asajj Ventress vs TCW S3 Anakin 2%
DE Luke Skywalker vs ROTJ Darth Vader 6%
Darth Bane vs Darth Zannah 0%
KOTOR Revan vs Darth Malak 1%

Canon + legends feats allowed.

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#1 Posted by echostarlord117 (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol How is DE Luke vs. RotJ Vader a well matched fight?

Anyway, RotS Yoda vs. RotS Palpatine is probably the best one on here. They were both extremely close to each other in power, skill, etc. at the time. Most of the other match ups have a pretty clear victor.

I'd say if not Yoda vs. Palpatine, then Mace vs. Dooku, although I don't think that fight would be as close as people think.

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#2 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda vs sidious is the best battle the EU has ever had IMO. Sidious expects the 'disgraced' Jedi master to flee for whatever his life still stands for whilst boasting how he had destroyed the best of the order, the grandmaster then makes it to the phone where he lets him know personally he's on his way.

Easily the most badass thing I've ever witnessed in the EU besides Vader reminding us that he's still anakin in a suit, yoda turned into the friggin' hulk in the coolest manor possible. Easily the GOAT.

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#3 Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) - - Show Bio

@echostarlord117:

Palpatine stated DE Luke could become as powerful as his father or even greater than him in the comic. This implies he was still below Vader by the time of DE. His feats put him close to Vader, though.

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#4 Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) - - Show Bio

Star Wars Callouts:

@noobsnowman@zaluk@killerwasp@nerdchore@zapan871@sirfizzwhizz@jedixman@emperordmb@banthabot@themuser@decaf_wizard@icecold14@sxe619@thevivas@georgewbush@radioactivehaggis@emperor339@azronger@bigsambino87@ffp@ziggystardust@keikrosskira@i_like_swords@shootingnova@noah_ouellette@eisenfauste@foxerdes@alextheboss@amethystgravity@starwarsholonet@darthbane77@erkan12@darkishdefender@wollfmyth209@darthskywalker0@aiartificalintelligence@darthant66@jackofalltrades2@kbroskywalker@ordeith

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#5 Posted by Rockette (5678 posts) - - Show Bio

ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi was literally a stalemate.

Ben just stood there and died in the end. There was no real ground gained either way before that moment.

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#6 Posted by Killerwasp (17293 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku vs mace

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#7 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@rockette said:

ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi was literally a stalemate.

Ben just stood there and died in the end. There was no real ground gained either way before that moment.

not necessarily. In canon it's a stalemate, in legends Ben was losing.

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#8 Posted by Rockette (5678 posts) - - Show Bio

@rockette said:

ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi was literally a stalemate.

Ben just stood there and died in the end. There was no real ground gained either way before that moment.

not necessarily. In canon it's a stalemate, in legends Ben was losing.

Didn't pay attention to the "+ legends" part in the OP.

My bad. I have mostly canon knowledge myself.

Abstaining then.

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#9 Posted by vooon (410 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious versus Yoda for sure.

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#10 Posted by nerdchore (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

Obi wan and anakin imo

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#11 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Windu vs Dooku. They were one notch below Yoda. We have Mace, whom is described as second to only Yoda himself, and then you have Dooku, whom Yoda described as the greatest of all the Jedi. These were the 2 greatest duelists in the entire Order, at one time.

I didn't vote for Sids and Yoda, because even the novelization states that Yoda was never going to win that fight, that he just didn't have it in him.

Ben vs Vader is another great example. The Death Star novel makes it clear that Vader was cautious of his old master, knowing that even though his power was weak, his skills were sharp as ever, and a careless mistake could cost him his life. That being said, Vader would have won that fight every time, purely on the basis of superior stamina. Ben was old and tired, and all Vader had to do was wait him out.

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#12 Posted by AlexTheBoss (16990 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted Yoda vs Sidious since an all out fight would pretty much be a split imo.

Mace vs Doouk would be close, but I think Mace has the slight edge.

ROTS Obi-wan vs SOD Maul, I give Obi-wan the slight edge because of his performance against Vader/Anakin.

I give AOTC Obi-wan the advantage over AOTC Anakin due to experience.

ANH Vader and Ben is pretty even, but Vader can outlast Ben imo.

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#13 Posted by AmethystGravity (2287 posts) - - Show Bio

KOTOR Revan vs Malak shouldn't be a close fight, unless we include all of the favorable circumstances in Malak's favor. Similarly, I wouldn't imagine prime Zannah vs prime Bane as the closest fight listed.

Yoda and Sidious was probably the closest, in my opinion.

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#14 Posted by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda and Sidious, yeah. It's 50/50 with Yoda taking the edge with duelling and Sidious taking the edge in force abilities.

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#15 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6016 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably DE Luke vs RotJ Vader.

Everything else we have clear answers for.

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#16 Posted by the_wspanialy (3913 posts) - - Show Bio

Either Mace vs Dooku or DE Luke vs Vader (no morals both).

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#17 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably DE Luke vs RotJ Vader.

Everything else we have clear answers for.

It being unclear who would win is not the same as combatants being evenly matched, as is the case with Yoda vs Sidious

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#18 Posted by i_like_swords (26192 posts) - - Show Bio

Ulic Qel-Droma vs Exar Kun at the time they fought were said to be so evenly matched that the fight could have lasted hours, and would have ended with both of their deaths. That's about as close as I can imagine a fight ever being.

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#19 Posted by Paytience (4724 posts) - - Show Bio

@rockette said:

ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi was literally a stalemate.

Ben just stood there and died in the end. There was no real ground gained either way before that moment.

not necessarily. In canon it's a stalemate, in legends Ben was losing.

No it wasn't. "Legends" or the EU as it were, is and always has been subject higher canons. It doesn't matter WHAT any other source in legends says about the fight, the AnH NOVELIZATION has it as a stalemate. Thus the highest level of the EU supercede's any other reference. You don't get ignore the canon that had already existed before Disney righted things, and returned the canon policies to how they should of been. You understand? Just because the novelization is still relevant to the real canon, doesn't change the fact that it was/is also canon to legends.

In the EU, the fight between Ben and Vader was a stalemate. It really doesn't matter what the other perspectives withing the legend lore say about it at that point.

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#20 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

Ulic Qel-Droma vs Exar Kun at the time they fought were said to be so evenly matched that the fight could have lasted hours, and would have ended with both of their deaths. That's about as close as I can imagine a fight ever being.

that wasn't prime kun or ulic and kun proceeds to grow a bit while ulic is powerless. So nah, as of their primes, they're not evenly matched.

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#21 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker said:
@rockette said:

ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi was literally a stalemate.

Ben just stood there and died in the end. There was no real ground gained either way before that moment.

not necessarily. In canon it's a stalemate, in legends Ben was losing.

No it wasn't. "Legends" or the EU as it were, is and always has been subject higher canons. It doesn't matter WHAT any other source in legends says about the fight, the AnH NOVELIZATION has it as a stalemate. Thus the highest level of the EU supercede's any other reference. You don't get ignore the canon that had already existed before Disney righted things, and returned the canon policies to how they should of been. You understand? Just because the novelization is still relevant to the real canon, doesn't change the fact that it was/is also canon to legends.

In the EU, the fight between Ben and Vader was a stalemate. It really doesn't matter what the other perspectives withing the legend lore say about it at that point.

The problem here is there's nothing in canon saying they were fighting exactly as equals or whether or not one was more likely of eventually losing.

In other words, there's no contradiction.

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#22 Edited by g2_ (11294 posts) - - Show Bio

ROTS Darth Sidious vs Yoda.

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#23 Posted by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of the poll options, probably Dooku vs Mace.

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#24 Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger:

Eh ? Dooku vs mace is in the poll options

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#25 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

Surprised that Kenobi vs Maul isn't being mentioned here.

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#26 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7887 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: from waht i've seen, people either think Mauk wins solidly or Kenobi. Though there's no doubt it would be a good fight either way, it's not as close as, say, Yoda vs Sid.

As for the Thread itself, probably Yoda vs Sid as it's the only fight we know will be super close. Dooku vs Windu is a close contender though, perhaps even equal.

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#27 Edited by Kiadi-Monday (298 posts) - - Show Bio

Unsure as to why Mace vs Dooku is being mentioned here considering that Mace has been confirmed to be more skilled as of RotS and more powerful as of 32BBY. His rate of growth is also far greater, considering how quickly he climbed the Order's totem pole (already comparable with Yoda at age 40, whereas Dooku wasn't truly comparable at even twice that age). It isn't unreasonable to suggest that Mace would have a considerable advantage over Dooku as of RotS, where he is legitimately contending with Sidious himself, whereas Dooku always viewed Sidious as 'beyond power' and something he would not dare challenge, which isn't something that a force user of comparable strength would think.

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 49

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

Star Wars Factfile 11

Anyway, as for the thread, probably Yoda vs RotS Sidious. Ben Kenobi vs ANH Vader also a good one, along with Kun vs Ulic and probably Darth Revan vs Darth Malak as well(but we don't have many details on that one, admittedly).

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#28 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

Unsure as to why Mace vs Dooku is being mentioned here considering that Mace has been confirmed to be more skilled as of RotS and more powerful as of 32BBY. His rate of growth is also far greater, considering how quickly he climbed the Order's totem pole (already comparable with Yoda at age 40, whereas Dooku wasn't truly comparable at even twice that age). It isn't unreasonable to suggest that Mace would have a considerable advantage over Dooku as of RotS, where he is legitimately contending with Sidious himself, whereas Dooku always viewed Sidious as 'beyond power' and something he would not dare challenge, which isn't something that a force user of comparable strength would think.

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 49

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

Star Wars Factfile 11

Anyway, as for the thread, probably Yoda vs RotS Sidious. Ben Kenobi vs ANH Vader also a good one, along with Kun vs Ulic and probably Darth Revan vs Darth Malak as well(but we don't have many details on that one, admittedly).

Up

Surprised that Kenobi vs Maul isn't being mentioned here.

Likely because it isn't the most even fight here. TCW Kenobi has gotten the better of Maul. Why would SOD Maul and ROTS Kenobi be equals?

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#29 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadi-monday said:

Unsure as to why Mace vs Dooku is being mentioned here considering that Mace has been confirmed to be more skilled as of RotS and more powerful as of 32BBY. His rate of growth is also far greater, considering how quickly he climbed the Order's totem pole (already comparable with Yoda at age 40, whereas Dooku wasn't truly comparable at even twice that age). It isn't unreasonable to suggest that Mace would have a considerable advantage over Dooku as of RotS, where he is legitimately contending with Sidious himself, whereas Dooku always viewed Sidious as 'beyond power' and something he would not dare challenge, which isn't something that a force user of comparable strength would think.

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 49

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

Star Wars Factfile 11

Anyway, as for the thread, probably Yoda vs RotS Sidious. Ben Kenobi vs ANH Vader also a good one, along with Kun vs Ulic and probably Darth Revan vs Darth Malak as well(but we don't have many details on that one, admittedly).

Up

@lordofthelight said:

Surprised that Kenobi vs Maul isn't being mentioned here.

Likely because it isn't the most even fight here. TCW Kenobi has gotten the better of Maul. Why would SOD Maul and ROTS Kenobi be equals?

First off, as you said, TPM Yoda isn't equal to ROTS Yoda.

Nova and I discussed this, and we agreed that rather than being weak or pre-prime, Yoda was simply out of practice. Upon realizing just how much of a threat the Sith posed, he was forced to improve and hone his skills, once more.

Likely because it isn't the most even fight here. TCW Kenobi has gotten the better of Maul. Why would SOD Maul and ROTS Kenobi be equals?

In a sabers matchup, yes. Not sure about the force. SoD Maul is anyways better than TCW Maul, having had a couple of months to grow in power and skill. I am unsure as to whose growth rate was higher.

Anyways, the focus should be on those matches in which the winner is unclear, because the consensus hasn't been solidified yet on who is better. And where evidence points to either of them claiming the winner title. In the case of Yoda and Sidious, the winner is crystal clear because of objective statements that explicitly say so.

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#30 Posted by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

That it's unclear who would win doesn't make the fight the most evenly matched, it just means they haven't fought each other directly or aren't directly comapred. Yoda and Sidious remains the most evenly matched fight here because it's the only one where it's made obvious that their is virtual equality. (Note: If this was canon, you could say the same off Ben vs Vader).

Even if Maul is more powerful than ROTS Kenobi, his inability to use it to garner a victory in a duel vs TCW Kenobi calls into question how his power would compensate for his inferiority as a swordsmen regarding ROTS Kenobi. Not to mention that if Kenobi is truly as high as you seem to have him, to the extent of being able to challenge a level 9 like Anakin, how is Maul , who has been shown to be useless against tier 9's an equal for him?

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#32 Edited by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader vs Ben was pathetic looking fight, but definitely the best matched one. It seemed like it could go on forever. Just two old dudes slowly pounding eachother with sticks forever.

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#33 Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Actually, I said it was both. Yoda probably did re-hone his skills, but his spiritual journey and encounter with the Force Priestesses would've surely strengthened his connection to the Force. He also seemed to be studying more of the Living Force on his own.

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#35 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova

Yeah, I forgot. Do you have more concrete evidence on what causes one's connection to the force to strengthen? Aside from the KoToR quotes you gave.

What is your opinion on this thread though?

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#36 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: I was supposed to find more quotes on that for Kbro but I never got around to it. There is a trend for it, though.

Sidious vs Yoda is probably the closest of these.

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#37 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader vs Ben was pathetic looking fight, but definitely the best matched one. It seemed like it could go on forever. Just two old dudes slowly pounding eachother with sticks forever.

legends made clear vader was winning

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#38 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova

Why is it the closest? I think there are a significant number of sources attesting to the fact that Sidious simply overwhelmed Yoda. Other sources say, flat out that Yoda cannot beat him.

I agree that Yoda would be close to him, but this is a fight that Yoda cannot win. A fight where the victor is clear. The fact that both have been portrayed as close to each other, does not change that Sidious has been declared, unequivocally, as a superior to Yoda.

I would base my decision more on fights where both have either fought, and no decisive winner has emerged, or on fights where both combatants have near equal hype and feats and they may/may not have fought. The kind of fight where both have an equal chance of winning, not just that the fight is close. It should be close to the extent that both parties can feasibly win an equal number of rounds in a finite set of matches.

Somehow, I don't think Yoda was going to win in the senate rotunda, even if he had come back to the top.

You don't think Kenobi and Maul is closer than that? I'd say TCW S3 Anakin vs Prime Ventress too would be a good bet. Ordinarily I would say Mace vs Dooku too, but Mace's hype is scaling him to new heights currently.

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#39 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: I don't think there's any matchup that will result in eternal stalemate. And I could think of closer battles in history, like Ulic Qel-Droma's duel with Exar Kun.

But of these I would say Sidious vs Yoda is the closest. You're right in that Sidious is the more favoured by sources and portrayals alike, although given that there's a huge number of sources on the matter, there's actually a fair few saying Yoda and Sidious were equals (more than there are for any of the other matchups). For me, Yoda vs Sidious just managed to stay close the longest out of these fights. We know that between level nines the difference comes down purely to style and environment, and in Yoda vs Sidious' case the deciding factor was environment alone (since both of their forms are pretty much the ultimate of their kind). On neutral ground, they probably could've dueled forever until Yoda tired out. I don't think you see that level of parity with any of the other matchups, and let's face it — these fights will primarily be lightsaber duels. Not to mention even in the book, Sidious and Yoda actually exchanged plenty of Force attacks whilst they were dueling and none of them were significant enough to shift the balance of the fight. It was only when it came down to a purely Force-based battle where Palpatine came out on top.

With the Force, it's most distinctly in Sidious' favour, but even so, the margin seems less than most of the ones here. Unlike Maul vs Kenobi, you don't see any of them ragdolling the other, because they're so advanced and skilled that they pretty much never leave themselves open (aside from those two cheap shots at the start of their encounter in the film). For me, that's the difference. With Maul and Kenobi, one of them could slip up and allow a potentially game-ending Force attack. For Anakin vs Ventress, that chance is also significant since both are known to leave themselves open in fights. With Sidious and Yoda, it's still possible, but the chance is much smaller. That's basically the difference to me. They can fight for a hell of a lot longer without slipping up, basically.

Dooku vs Mace might've been the second closest as of Y: DR, but with Mace being distinctly above Tyranus in dueling as of RotS, I don't think it's a contender anymore. Ben and Vader was closely matched but Ben tired throughout the fight, which was noted by sources to be brief. So it wouldn't last as long as Yoda vs Sidious. I'm not sure what KotOR Revan vs Malak is doing here, as that's a stomp. Honestly, the only real contender here would be AotC Obi-Wan vs AotC Anakin, since they know each other's moves so well. But even then, I think Anakin is just so much more likely to slip up than either Yoda or Palpatine.

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#40 Edited by PayneInTheAss (11180 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace / Dooku

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#41 Posted by Mohhsen (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace Windu vs Count Dooku

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#42 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

1- Anakin vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi (perfect match)

2- Yoda vs. Sidious (Sidious slightly taking the edge)

3- Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul (Maul slightly taking the edge)

4- Mace vs. Darth Tyranus (Mace slightly taking the edge)

5- Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul (Maul slightly taking the edge)

6- Ben Kenobi vs. Maul (Ben Kenobi slightly taking the edge)

7- Maul vs. Ahsoka (Maul slightly taking the edge)

Not sure why Windu vs. Dooku must be a closer than the Vader vs Kenobi in Mustafar, Windu stated to be nearing level 9 whereas Dooku was a solid level 8. In the legends, there are a couple of sources states that they were matched each other time-to-time, but so were Qui-Gon and Windu. That doesn't mean they should match each other perfectly like Anakin and Obi-Wan, that's the only fight that described as ''they just match each other perfectly'' ...

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#43 Posted by playerx-tr (610 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace vs Dooku

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#44 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (2917 posts) - - Show Bio

ROTS Darth Sidious vs Yoda; I'm fairly sure they are supposed to be equal and opposite, if they're created with the intention of being equal then they are surely more equal than another pair who happen to be close by chance.

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#45 Posted by Laurus (1553 posts) - - Show Bio

Sid and Yoda.