What I don't get about the DBZ vs Superman debate.

Quite honestly, I'm a fan of both characters. I believe they're both extremely powerful for their respective Universes.

But people, this is Superman we're talking about. I understand the need to defend Goku and I agree that he obviously wouldn't just fall over and die in a fight with Superman. It would be something to watch. But again, this is Superman.

He has survived the heart of the sun. Shrugged off Supernovas(These things destroy Solar systems). And taken a million nuclear warheads point blank to his face.

But no matter how many solid feats you provide for Superman, for some reason, the only thing that keeps this debate going is a very magical thing called:

Power scaling

The reason this messes with me is that this way of determining a character's level of strength just isn't valid when comparing people from two completely different universes. Anime and Comics at that.

Let me give you an example of how things go down:

Supes fan: " Superman has tanked the force of Supernovas and destroyed planets with his fist. His heat vision is also significantly hotter than the sun.

DBZ fan: "Well goku has defeated Frieza whose power level is |----| ,so that makes it obvious that he would defeat Superman.

That's the problem. Assuming things. They're never actual solid feats. Superman doesn't give a @$%! about who Frieza is because, guess what, he's fighting Goku. Akira himself stated that power levels were pretty much useless past the second arc. And that WASN'T because goku and his friends were god powerful. It was a plot device to show that power levels didn't mean anything. And then they go on to say that since King Kai said he was 1000 times more powerful than A. Then they could multiply it by that much so he could be just as strong as B. What?

I mean a skinny dude could beat a buffed up guy, but that doesn't automatically make him stronger.

Let me make it simple for you:

When you're putting up two characters from two different universes, you can't use outside sources. It's based soley on what each of them has accomplished. Let's say if you were putting up goku against vegeta. It's perfectly fine to use that method because they're both from the same universe. But when you say because goku defeated cell, he can defeat superman since cell is this powerful. NO! Superman doesn't know who cell is and you'd have to make an entirely new thread about Superman vs Cell. And then cause Superman defeated Doomsday, you'd have to make an entirely new thread about Cell vs Doomsday. In short its endless and a useless way of determining strength.

Seriously though I'm just being logical. Broly was destroyed by the sun and I'm pretty sure it was stated that he was more powerful than goku. Super takes the sun in and laughs. When goku's Kamehameha is as strong as 5 supernovas and enough to destroy a solar system in one blow like Superman's sneeze than maybe this will be a real fight. Until that happens though. Until that happens though, I don't see him surviving 250 punches from Superman that are capable of destroying a planet each. Maybe Superman will be nice and give him the force of 200 quintillion TONS of striking power right in his rib cage.

But hey, that's just my take on it.

Feel free to post feats below to add or take away.

I seriously have no problem with it. I'm pretty much neutral in this argument.

@Pfcoolio15: So what you don't get about the debate? You just wrote down your so typical opinion. Even going by your logic you are wrong. Power scaling works in their universe, you said that. Goku beating Freeza is happened in their universe, it's solid feat.

Disregard anything that not happened on-panel is not logical, doesn't matter how much you try to explain it.

Read more Goku vs dbz battle.

OK I see some of your points. Even with the difference in universes, you gotta use details. Some characters have different weaknesses. Broly was destroyed by the sun.Supes is powered by the sun, so not a big deal about being in the heart of it. But if you put a chunk of kryptonite both Goku and Broly would just stare at it like a pretty green rock.

Power Scaling gives you a pretty good idea of where things are at. Even before he went SS1, Goku and pretty much all the Z fighters and their enemies could destroy a planet with very little effort. Friesza wiped out the Saiyan homeworld with 1 shot from his fingertips and was non transformed, and sitting down at that. No strain on his part. No aside from the differences in universes, destroying a planet is STILL DESTROYING A PLANET. Your talking some serious power regardless of what universe your in. Goku could wipe out an entire solar system if he really wanted. When you weigh up past feats, it's not far out from reason he could. Although it's not in his personality.

You also gotta take in what versions of them. PC supes was so powerful they had to make a story that was believable. But SS4 Goku is insanely overpowered. Aikra said that power levels didn't matter because after the Cell saga, the stories were just becoming arms races-constantly trying to get stronger than your opponent.

Current 52 Supes could not handle SS4 Goku. Post Crises would destroy any Goku short of SS2 (full power version) or higher. While I think most versions of Supes are stronger and more durable than Goku, it's not high enough to a point that it gives him a clear advantage over Goku's skills and energy manipulation. And that's what it really comes down to. Once you get to a certain point in strength in power with the heavy hitter characters, it almost becomes moot unless of course he is a team buster.

@mypasswordis1234: When I said that power scaling works in their Universe, I meant when you were comparing characters from the DBZ universe. Ya, it's a solid feat when comparing goku and Vegeta. But when you take someone from an entirely different Universe, it means nothing because that person has never faced the person that the other person faced. It's like saying just because Superman defeated Darkseid, then that automatically means he could take Goku. But then again, Goku has never fought Darkseid, so what should it matter. It doesn't accomplish anything and the debate keeps going.

What should be considered a solid feat is Goku went this fast

Or Superman's max is this

Not just cause he defeated this person, then he should be able to defeat this person

That, my friend, doesn't make sense

The debate will never end anyway.

@Pfcoolio15 said:

@mypasswordis1234: When I said that power scaling works in their Universe, I meant when you were comparing characters from the DBZ universe. Ya, it's a solid feat when comparing goku and Vegeta. But when you take someone from an entirely different Universe, it means nothing because that person has never faced the person that the other person faced. It's like saying just because Superman defeated Darkseid, then that automatically means he could take Goku. But then again, Goku has never fought Darkseid, so what should it matter. It doesn't accomplish anything and the debate keeps going.

What should be considered a solid feat is Goku went this fast

Or Superman's max is this

Not just cause he defeated this person, then he should be able to defeat this person

That, my friend, doesn't make sense

You're not getting how people are using power scaling. When people say Goku beat X so he can beat Superman it's because Goku beat X who was a casual planet/solar system/whatever buster. It means he's stronger than them and as such due to the nature of the DBZ universe can perform the feats with Ki that they could. Now I don't agree Goku could be Superman in any majority but I wanted to clarify the power scaling for you.

@beautifulrevery: @Just_J79:

Power Scaling is a little odd, and it doesn't help that characters become stronger in some areas, only to be weaker in others. An example would be Frieza and Cell, in the sense that Frieza tanked a planet bust while bifurcated and blasted, while Cell was noticeably scared of an attack of the same strength. Goku, who is supposedly stronger than Frieza, and King Kai, who is said to, like all Kais, be able to on shot Frieza, being taken out by a planet buster too. Then there's that time Gohan one shot Frieza with an attack that barely shifted the dust from the roof of the building Frieza was standing on.

However, as I stated in another thread, the reason this is difficult is because of how different each character is presented. Manga and Comics are dramatically different, specifically, in common themes, visual effects, methods of story telling and so on and so forth. It's difficult to decide benchmarks and equal ground when things work differently in one place from how they work in another. One common thing I've seen in debates is that many Superman supporters will post arguments and scans in favour of Superman, but hardly anything that would debunk Goku's skills (apart from one thing about the whole 40 tons lifting bit)

Meanwhile, I see a lot of responses from DBZ fans where they'd post Goku's feats (mainly speed feats and damage feats) and then follow that up with scans of Superman being hurt by someone (regardless of the power or circumstance of that someone) and come to the conclusion that, well, Supes is getting his ass handed to him here, so obviously Goku can beat him.

@Just_J79:

Power Scaling is a little odd, and it doesn't help that characters become stronger in some areas, only to be weaker in others. An example would be Frieza and Cell, in the sense that Frieza tanked a planet bust while bifurcated and blasted, while Cell was noticeably scared of an attack of the same strength. Goku, who is supposedly stronger than Frieza, and King Kai, who is said to, like all Kais, be able to on shot Frieza, being taken out by a planet buster too. Then there's that time Gohan one shot Frieza with an attack that barely shifted the dust from the roof of the building Frieza was standing on.

However, as I stated in another thread, the reason this is difficult is because of how different each character is presented. Manga and Comics are dramatically different, specifically, in common themes, visual effects, methods of story telling and so on and so forth. It's difficult to decide benchmarks and equal ground when things work differently in one place from how they work in another. One common thing I've seen in debates is that many Superman supporters will post arguments and scans in favour of Superman, but hardly anything that would debunk Goku's skills (apart from one thing about the whole 40 tons lifting bit)

Meanwhile, I see a lot of responses from DBZ fans where they'd post Goku's feats (mainly speed feats and damage feats) and then follow that up with scans of Superman being hurt by someone (regardless of the power or circumstance of that someone) and come to the conclusion that, well, Supes is getting his ass handed to him here, so obviously Goku can beat him.

@Wolfrazer said:

The debate will never end anyway.

@Pfcoolio15 said:

@mypasswordis1234: When I said that power scaling works in their Universe, I meant when you were comparing characters from the DBZ universe. Ya, it's a solid feat when comparing goku and Vegeta. But when you take someone from an entirely different Universe, it means nothing because that person has never faced the person that the other person faced. It's like saying just because Superman defeated Darkseid, then that automatically means he could take Goku. But then again, Goku has never fought Darkseid, so what should it matter. It doesn't accomplish anything and the debate keeps going.

What should be considered a solid feat is Goku went this fast

Or Superman's max is this

Not just cause he defeated this person, then he should be able to defeat this person

That, my friend, doesn't make sense

So you basically telling only those feats can decide the battle, when there are: Clear durability feat which is not from a fighting. Clear strength feat which is not from a fight. Clear speed, reaction feat which is stated by narrator somehow. So 99% of the battle shouldn't exist in here. So for example, Doomslayer<Wolwerine, because Doomslayer has only fighting feats and he not from Marvel so powerscaling doesn't work here. Or Cythonna<Spiderman, because Cythonna's only feat that she stomped Superman, and Spiderman is from Marvel so powerscaling doesn't work. Or Ronaldo can kick further a football than Iron Fist, because Iron Fist never kicked a football.

You know, the characters usually wasn't created for being impressive feats, it's for entertain with good stories. You must be new here, and you must be beginner about debating, I wont try to convince you or anything further, but here a moderator's quote:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/feats-and-how-to-use-them/626504/#19

6. Some Characters Don't Have On Panel Feats, Argue Based on Their Character

what comes to your mind is probably TOAA. Yet, would you argue that KickAss can beat him because of this?

No, you argue TOAA based on the logical implications of his character. To One Above All, while featless, is supposed to be like Comic God.

Logically, he should have no problem beating the tar out of Kick Ass if he decided KickAss was too wimpy to continue living.

In that sense, you can argue that a character can do something even if they don't have a feat of it. I can argue that Superman can beat a grown man in a fight, even though the man doesn't have any feats showing his fighting skills, based on the character of a man. Lacking a feat doesn't necessarily mean a character can't do a feat.

We take character from many different worlds and situations. If a character hasn't been exposed to a situation, and it is within the attributes of that character to accomplish a feat, then it is possible to argue it as within their power.

@mypasswordis1234:

Dude, you're missing the entire point here. I didn't say only those feats can decide the battle, just giving examples.

"Clear durability feat which is not from a fighting. Clear strength feat which is not from a fight. Clear speed, reaction feat which is stated by narrator somehow"

What you just said right there is proving my point exactly. Those are the feats that can be used. Not just because he defeated A, then he can defeat Z. And none of your examples added to your arg.

And as for the beginner thing, you're obviously losing so you decide to retreat to namecalling because you can't accept a point if it's not yours. Just because the two are from different universes doesn't mean they can't fight. But when you use a feat like he or she defeated this person, then it makes no difference.

@Pfcoolio15 said:

@mypasswordis1234:

Dude, you're missing the entire point here. I didn't say only those feats can decide the battle, just giving examples.

"Clear durability feat which is not from a fighting. Clear strength feat which is not from a fight. Clear speed, reaction feat which is stated by narrator somehow"

What you just said right there is proving my point exactly. Those are the feats that can be used. Not just because he defeated A, then he can defeat Z. And none of your examples added to your arg.

And as for the beginner thing, you're obviously losing so you decide to retreat to namecalling because you can't accept a point if it's not yours. Just because the two are from different universes doesn't mean they can't fight. But when you use a feat like he or she defeated this person, then it makes no difference.

I didn't called you anything. I suppose you 15year old from your nickname, and you has few post number yet. You are new here, and you are beginner, you didn't said any new thing, I gave you advice already to read some more Superman vs Goku or similar battle, you will understand some things maybe. This isn't dbz-exclusive thing that you trying to debunk. You should have understood it at least from the quote, but doesn't matter, I suggesting you to lurk and learn.

WOW, So much drama. LOL

@Pfcoolio15 said:

They're never actual solid feats. Superman doesn't give a @$%! about who Frieza is because, guess what, he's fighting Goku.

I lol'ed i agree with you though

@mypasswordis1234:

First, I'm not 15. I'm 16. Big difference.

And aside from that, in case you didn't realize, this isn't a superman vs goku thread. I'm talking about whats wrong with power scaling when using it to determine a character's feat. And based on what you've provided, you haven't given any information valid enough to rebuttle my claims. Anywho this isn't a debate, but you can keep going if you want to.

That Bump

@Pfcoolio15 said:

@mypasswordis1234:

First, I'm not 15. I'm 16. Big difference.

And aside from that, in case you didn't realize, this isn't a superman vs goku thread. I'm talking about whats wrong with power scaling when using it to determine a character's feat. And based on what you've provided, you haven't given any information valid enough to rebuttle my claims. Anywho this isn't a debate, but you can keep going if you want to.

I wasn't arguing for Goku or Superman either. You has serious comprehending limitations.

And I flagged this thread because it's in the battle section while it isn't battle and you didn't really write down wtf do yo want.

Look at it this way. Goku has the IQ of a BBQ pulled pork sandwich and anyone who supports him in a fight against Superman should be considered intellectually on par with Goku.

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

@Wolfrazer said:

The debate will never end anyway.

@ToO_RaW: Anime vs Comics is allowed now and has been for a few weeks.

@Pfcoolio15 said:

@beautifulrevery: @Just_J79:

Power Scaling is a little odd, and it doesn't help that characters become stronger in some areas, only to be weaker in others. An example would be Frieza and Cell, in the sense that Frieza tanked a planet bust while bifurcated and blasted, while Cell was noticeably scared of an attack of the same strength. Goku, who is supposedly stronger than Frieza, and King Kai, who is said to, like all Kais, be able to on shot Frieza, being taken out by a planet buster too. Then there's that time Gohan one shot Frieza with an attack that barely shifted the dust from the roof of the building Frieza was standing on.

However, as I stated in another thread, the reason this is difficult is because of how different each character is presented. Manga and Comics are dramatically different, specifically, in common themes, visual effects, methods of story telling and so on and so forth. It's difficult to decide benchmarks and equal ground when things work differently in one place from how they work in another. One common thing I've seen in debates is that many Superman supporters will post arguments and scans in favour of Superman, but hardly anything that would debunk Goku's skills (apart from one thing about the whole 40 tons lifting bit)

Meanwhile, I see a lot of responses from DBZ fans where they'd post Goku's feats (mainly speed feats and damage feats) and then follow that up with scans of Superman being hurt by someone (regardless of the power or circumstance of that someone) and come to the conclusion that, well, Supes is getting his ass handed to him here, so obviously Goku can beat him.

King Kai is not able to oneshot frieza. Those are the Supreme Kais. King Kai is very low tier on the DBZ power scale. He lost significance in ability to boost power after the saiyan saga. Also that Gohan/Frieza moment is noncanon as it's from a movie I believe. Also the Cell thing, the power was at LEAST able to destroy the planet and that's at the very least but the attacks are contained so they don't destroy the land they're fighting on. Goku taking out Recoome of the Ginyu force can be a direct example of this since it was one attack but the power packed into it was much greater than the area that was damaged.

One thing I've noticed is that Superman debaters will disregard how powerful someone is from the anime/manga because it isn't directly shown on screen when you have to realize that DBZ is all about power scaling. If the Saibamen are as strong as Raditz and Krillin one shotted them then he at that point was easily stronger than Raditz. Point blank. No ifs and or buts about it. No debating. It's clearly laid out for you.

@beautifulrevery

I see.

@ToO_RaW said:

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

Its allowed again. For better or worse.

The debate was already finished on Death battle

Superman wins

@Gambler said:

@ToO_RaW said:

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

Its allowed again. For better or worse.

lol risky business my friend.

@Pfcoolio15: no offense man, i'm attacking your logic, but your logic is rally dull !! according to what you say : "we can't use power scalling and Cell never faced Freiza, so we can't say that Cell is stronger than Freiza, Frieza destroyed planets with no effort when Cell never did, so by feats Frieza is stronger than Cell". DULL REALLY DULL !!!

the problem with Superman vs Goku debaters, is that they use DC logic on Goku, and DBZ logic on Supreman, and that's wrong, you can't say for example that Superman is better weight lifting/ strenght punching then he kills Goku, because unlike Supreman who's based power is his race's nature, Goku's based power is Ki, so even if he's basically has natural weak durability and strenght, he compensate it and increase it with his Ki concentration. (the same as Flash can create Infinite Mass Punch with his lame weak body, the difference is that DBZ characters use Ki).

same again when people use travel speed as reflex speed, but actually travel speed =/= reflex speed,

and what most people don't understand is that speed of DBZ characters isn't the same as the speed of marvel or DC characters. When Marvel/DC characters are flying, the longer they fly the faster they'll go, until they reach their top speed, for which it usually takes them at least few seconds, When DBZ characters are flying, they reach their top speed almost instantly, and then they are losing it the longer they fly.

@P0rtal: agreed

Time to clear the air a bit. For one thing, part of Gokus power is his race. Saiyans have a natural affinity for Ki manipulation. It's in there genes it's what they do. Why do you think Gohan as an infant baby showed power? A Saiyans physiology is designed for fighting (slowed aging/vitality, the whole giant monkey thing?) even untrained they still are in the super human range.

And yes the physics in anime universes aren't the same as DC/Marvel. But the point is that you can use observation and logic to judge who vs who based on an average of those two universe and what they have done. If you get a good issue of Supes and watch some DBZ or GT and really be honest about it, you will see that Supes probably has overall greater strength and feats that prove it. But when it comes to combat and just straight up destructive potential, you have to give it to DBZ. Almost every fight results in the destruction of worlds because it's sooo much power running amok.

So add in info from the environment, and character data, you could probably say even though Supes hasn't fought Cell, he could probably one shot him. Why? In fact why do the people who argue think they are right? Because they take all that into context and IT MAKES SENSE. If a character could one shot a planet with energy to spare, that's a pretty fair benchmark to use against another character. Instead of Supes put Spiderman in the mix with him vs, Goku. Would you dare say that Spidey can win? Would you? I rest my case.

@DCsuperman0007 said:

@P0rtal: agreed

lol ty

Power scaling

"The reason this messes with me is that this way of determining a character's level of strength just isn't valid when comparing people from two completely different universes."

@rangersoul6: What do you mean? Should I have said comics?

@the_mighty_Beyonder: I like your explanation

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@the_mighty_Beyonder: I like your explanation

thanx i'm flattered :D

@the_mighty_Beyonder said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@the_mighty_Beyonder: I like your explanation

thanx i'm flattered :D

No problem what you posted is the truth

@Pfcoolio15: I just want to say, that I agree with you entirely. I have never in my life understood this. and even though @beautifulrevery: made a cool explanation about what power scaling is, it's saying things like Casual buster of this and buster of that. And as I said somewhere else Goku Never beat anyone 1 v 1. It has never ever happened. He lost to His brother. He lost to Vegeta. He lost to Freeza. He lost to Cell. He lost to Kid Buu. Though he came out of those fights "the winner" he always has help from other people. Freeza was the only "Casual " Planet buster. Kid Buu was the only Casual System buster (though he did it planet by planet."

And at the end of the day, he lost to them both. If it where for the fact that Freeza was on that B.S. and didn't just kill Goku when the Spirit bomb didn't work, instead of targeting his friends, we'd never have SSj1.

If it weren't for them constantly using the dragon balls, Kid Buu would have killed everyone.

So while I completely agree with everything you've said, what I have never understood about his debate is Goku is not as good as everyone make him out to be. He's extremely over rated because he never ever wins. Minus lame fights like Goku vs nappa. Goku Vs Berta. Goku vs Riccum. When the real fights take places, he gets trashed every single time.

It's both amusing, and frustrating, that some(a lot of) people seem to shoot down 'power scaling', seemingly without even considering it.

Yes, power scaling works in DBZ. Why is this? Because pretty much everything in DBZ is about power/Ki level.

To use examples from before Namek(where there were actual official power levels). If Goku had a power level of, let's say 2000, while Picollo had a power level of 1900. Then whenever those two fight(while their Ki are on that level), Goku will win. The more powerful fighter, wins. So, if X can beat Goku, then he can also beat Picollo.

However, one thing that the people speaking for power scaling, needs to keep in mind(in DBZ), is that all of the Ki techniques, are power multipliers themselves. And that can mess up the power scaling. The Kamehameha, IIRC; has a power multiplication factor of about 1.8. That means, that if Goku has a power level of 2000, then his Kamehameha will have a power of 3600. Easily enough to take down a fighter who is more powerful(than goku).

But even that, if you know the multiplication factors, can be taken into account, and power scaling still works. Simply because, in DBZ, raw power/ki level, is the only significant factor. Unlike in Marvel/DC/Etc. where there are multiple factors.

But when trying to determine a winner in a match, you only have to go with the lowest factor. Thus, in most DBZ/Comics battles, it can, in most cases, be determined by raw power. Is <insert arbitrary Marvel/DC character) more powerful than <insert arbitrary DBZ character> ? If the answer is yes, then the Marvel/DC character wins. If the answer is no, then the Marvel/DC character, in most cases, still has other factors that can play in, and affect the outcome in his/her favor.

Likewise, power scaling can, in terms of raw power, also be applied to a certain point in Marvel, DC, etc. As long as we are dealing with the same basic powers.

Let's for a moment say that Superman has a base level strength of 1.000.000 tons(arbitrary number), while Martian Manhunter's strength is only at 999.990 tons. Close enough to be virtually indistinguishable from Superman's, but lower nonetheless. If Martian Manhunter performs a Strength feat, then we can safely say, within the boundaries of this example, that Superman can perform an identical feat, without him(superman) ever actually doing so on-screen.

However, power scaling only works, in Marvel/DC/Etc. to that, very limited, degree.

The dbz universe is a weird universe. You cant just assume planet durability in dbz is the same as planet durability in other universes. Case in point: The screwattack death battle video showed a clip of dbz where dr. gero made a bomb powerful enough to destroy the earth. But guess how much power the bomb punched? Less than 400 megatons! It said so right on the bomb! So guess what? Dbz planets are pretty weak! You need ALOT, and I mean ALOT MORE firepower to blow up a real earth sized Planet. So its really not a big deal for dbz characters to be planet busters because dbz planets are extremely weak! Its been proven!

@ToO_RaW said:

@Gambler said:

@ToO_RaW said:

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

Its allowed again. For better or worse.

lol risky business my friend.

I fought against it lol

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

@Pfcoolio15:

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/death-battle-goku-vs-superman

not perfect but have some good points, they totally messed up the travel speed vs combat speed separation. They pointed out Superman has tanked blasts above anything Goku or DBZ toons have put out. They also showed a good strength comparison. They messed up the speed though.

This is (more or less) how the infamous power scale in DBZ looks like

Master Roshi/Tao Pai Pai<Kid Goku (Red Ribbon saga)<<<<Kid Goku(22nd budokai)<<Old Piccolo<<<<King Piccolo<Kid Goku (King Piccolo saga)<<<<Mr. Popo<<<Kami<<<<Goku (start of DBZ)<<<Raditz<<<Nappa<<<<KKx2 Goku (saiyan saga)<Vegeta (saiyan saga)<<KKx3 Goku (saiyan saga)<<Vegeta(Namek saga)<<Recoome<<<Captain Ginyu<<Goku (Namek saga)<<<Goku( Frieza saga)<<<<KKx20 Goku<<<Frieza<<SSJ Goku ( on namek)<Mecha Frieza<<< SSJ Trunks<<<SSJ Goku(pre android saga)<<<<<SSJ Goku (android saga)<SSJVegeta android saga<<Android 18<Android 17<<<<Cell (after absorbing people)</=Android 16<<<<Cell (after absorbing 17)<<<<Vegeta (after training in time chamber)<<<<Perfect Cell<<<<Super Perfect Cell<<SSJ2 Gohan<<<<<SSJ2 Goku</=SSJ2 Majin Vegeta<<<Fat Majin Buu<<SSJ3 Goku<<Mystic Gohan<<<<Buuhan<<<<SSJ Vegeto<<<<SSJ3 Vegeto

It seems like there are two fractions of people who discuss about DBZ battles, and I wouldn't even call them DBZ fanboys and DBZ haters.

These two fractions differ only by the methodology they use when they try to determine speed, strength, durability and destructive power of DBZ characters.

First fraction chooses to ignore power scaling.

This is a methodology usually used when subjects are characters from marvel/DC universe, quite rightfully so. In marvel universe PS is BS.

But when you chose to ignore PS in DBZ universe, entire universe stops making sense. Without power scaling we wouldn't even be able to prove that kamehameha from SSJ Vegeto would be more powerful than the same attack from Roshi.

This group which chooses to ignore PS usually describe top tier DBZ characters as planet busters, with massively hypersonic speed and planet level durability (at most).

The reason why the other group, the one which chooses not to ignore the PS, of which I am a member of, object to this, is because when we examine the evidence we can see that

1. Even characters such as Roshi and saiyan saga Piccolo were able to destroy a moon, and a moon in quite big, in fact so big that if it had its own cleared path around the Sun, it would be considered a planet, which means that by some standards even Roshi could be considered a planet buster.

So how can we possibly except the idea in which both Roshi and SSJ Vegeto are squished in the same group?

But even if we ignore this, Vegeta was 100 times more powerful than proven moon buster.

This is what proven moon busters think about Vegeta nad Nappa:

Gallery

Vegeta said he can destroy the Earth,and he almost certainly was able to.

Again, putting Saiyan saga Vegeta and SSJ Vegeto in the same basket is ridiculous.

But even if we ignore all this, again,Frieza effortlessly destroyed planet Vegeta, with PL 530 000. Planet Vegeta had gravity 10x larger than Earth, which almost certainly means it was much bigger or much denser than the earth.

and putting first form Frieza in the same category as SSJ Vegeto is almost equally ridiculous

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/destructive-power-of-dbz-characters/92-679193/#14

2. Even Roshi level characters were hypersonic, and kid Goku is certainly massively faster than Roshi. In fact so much faster that Roshi wouldn't even be able to see him or touch him. I think this qualifies kid Goku for a title of massively hypersonic character.

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/#1

So how can we possibly except the idea in which both kid Goku and SSJ Vegeto aresqueezed in the same group?

3. Group of moon+ busters was completely unable to hurt Nappa, so by some standards even he could qualify for planet level durability title.

if not him then, perhaps Vegeta. He was completely unharmed by region busting attack, and he survived a direct hit from an energy beam which was more powerful than his planet busting galic gun. Also it goes by without saying, that those same moon+ busters which fought Nappa wouldn't be able to do a jack shit against Vegeta. So Vegeta probably has planet level durability.

And even if we, once again, ignore all this, Frieza was severely beaten up and cut in 4 pieces, when a planet exploded into his face, yet he survived it.

While he was relatively healthy he said if he gets caught in the planet explosion he might lose some of his energy. This clearly shows how he had planet+ level durability.

So how can we put Nappa or Vegeta or Frieza in the same category with SSJ Vegeto?

• ..

So the first group is certainly wrong, while the other group which chooses not to ignore PS is only wrong most of the time.

From the group which chooses not to ignore PS wh get all varieties of answers.

Some people consider them to be star busters, some people consider them to be multiverse busters, some people think they have relativistic speed, and the others think they are billions of times faster than light. Some people think they could survive star busting attacks, some people think they could survive multiverse busting attack.

• ..

So which methodology is the correct one?

@Mortein:

@kuartus4 said:

DBZ planetary bodies are extremely weak. This was proven when gero was about to blow up the earth with a 300 megaton range bomb. So the fact that dbz characters are planetary busters doesnt mean much. Their planets are pretty fragile for planets.

@Mortein:

Can you show me a scan?

that's probably non canon.

@Bossmonster: Thanks.

This is not a battle....

@ToO_RaW said:

I remember reading somewhere on ComicVine that anime vs comic threads weren't allowed. Why do I see so many DBZ vs Superman threads?

Because people are obsessed trying to prove Goku is the strongest evar, as if that makes him a better hero or something.

@BlackWind: I never really saw goku as the better HERO. He's all about getting better martial arts. Superman is solely dedicated to his job. He doesn't fight for fun.

There are more threads like this then there actually are Superman vs Gokus.

@Pfcoolio15: Not to mention Goku is a pretty terrible husband and a sub par father.

@BlackWind: lol