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#1 Posted by rarelandpupper (399 posts) - - Show Bio

I see people putting him above The Mythos and Umineko, it’s not like that where I come from ( I don’t come from VS Battle Wiki ).

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#2 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13401 posts) - - Show Bio

Slightly below Batman.

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#3 Posted by savythegawd (159 posts) - - Show Bio

Vs battle wiki has the beyonder under both umineko and Cthulhu mythos. As it stands right now both of those two verses are considered the top outerversals.

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#5 Posted by BlackWizzard17 (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

@savythegawd:

First Rule about is Comicvine, You do not talk about Vs battle wiki

Second rule about is Comicvine, You DO Not Talk About Vs Wiki

ontopic: An infinite Dimensional being stated to be omnipotent multiple times most people would just say he is TOAA before TOAA.

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#6 Posted by savythegawd (159 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17: the beyonder has feats above the concept of dimensions but if you wanna settle on calling him ifinite dimensional then he is cannon fodder in umineko and Cthulhu mythos since all witches are above the concept of dimensions as a whole and then there's great old ones that are above the concept of dimensions and they are nothing to the ultimate gods which act as a 1-∞ dimensional scale all over again just on an outerversal level. And the outer gods are anove that. Also worth noting that in umineko Beatrice rose to the level of featherine who is nigh-omnipotent. And bernkastel and lambdabelta can 100% no sell beato. Not saying beato lambd and bern are nigh-omnipotent im saying that their beyond an infinite degree above baseline outerversal.

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#7 Edited by baph (2214 posts) - - Show Bio

Scaling from tiers, he's pretty much above beings who can destroy a multiverse that contains infinite universes easily.

Once a character gets to that level it's difficult to scale.

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#8 Posted by BlackWizzard17 (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

@savythegawd: how do you scale above infinite dimensions though? Above space and time yes but because those creatures exist they have to exist in a dimensional plane.

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#9 Posted by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

To Stan Lee

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#10 Posted by savythegawd (159 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17: basically the idea of dimensions for cases like dc marvel dies irae umineko lovecraft etc. Is that your dimensions go 1-∞ but that has no jurisdiction on beings who are not effected by dimensions at all. So if you look at dimensions as an ever growing pyramid, outerversal beings are above the pyramid. Outerversal beings also tend to "not exist" because at that level they are essentially living concepts and therefore metaphysical forces. So they don't "exist" they are non-existent. I hope that doesn't come off as confusing. For example there's several scans in marvel where they state the marvel verse goes 1-∞ dimensional but there's people like the beyonder moleculeman and Oblivion who all state that they exist in a place beyond that infinite dimensional scale. A place that isn't a place at all cuz its metaphysical. For example Oblivion's realm is literally non-existent. In dc lucifer morningstar and the presence stand at the peak of dc's infinite dimensional existence outside of it as a whole. The endless in dc are also great examples of metaphysical living concepts.

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#11 Posted by reaverlation (25907 posts) - - Show Bio

To himself

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#12 Edited by kilgpmktra (952 posts) - - Show Bio

The interpretations are everywhere. People here don't know where to put him at in light of the fact that The only real quantifiable feat that shows beyonder's superiority over the multiverse, is him encompassing a domain that by one way or another, exists above it demonstrated in the OG secret wars which likewise, gave a short perspective of the multiverse's structure that he was above. Even after all that , he somehow got his power taken by technological methods by creatures who are limited by the multiverse (generally for plot progression).

Beyonder all things considered is a very strong being, one of marvel's most powerful but not for the reasons everyone bothers and he definitely isn't the most impressive thing ever. Him being above LT and Eternity at the time isn't madly impressive since LT and Eternity weren't the huge multiversal creatures in that era and everything about the beyonder and the cosmic beings he was above changed after secret wars, so the scaling isn't that impressive and it makes no sense compositing LT's feats for PR beyonder scaling. Also, that marvel's cosmology varies extraordinarily, which causes more issues gauging beyonder's power.

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#13 Posted by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra:

Don't forget that he stomped the Celestials.

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#14 Posted by kilgpmktra (952 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra:

Don't forget that he stomped the Celestials.

Tbh the celestials weren't all that impressive around that time either. The biggest statement comes from arishem's mind supposedly encompassing space and time of the universe. Not really a feat better than beating an m-body of eternity or something

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#15 Edited by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra said:
@jagernutt said:

@kilgpmktra:

Don't forget that he stomped the Celestials.

Tbh the celestials weren't all that impressive around that time either. The biggest statement comes from arishem's mind supposedly encompassing space and time of the universe. Not really a feat better than beating an m-body of eternity or something

Then who is impressive at that time? Anyone at all?

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#16 Posted by Supermanthor (21193 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: @jagernutt: from marvel no one

every single character of that company jobbed at a point within last 5 years writers like jason aaron and dan slott are the main reason

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#17 Posted by rarelandpupper (399 posts) - - Show Bio

If infinite dimensional is the best people can get PR Beyonder to Umineko and Mythos who transcend dimensions and are quite a bit infinitely above that I don't see why people put him about them.

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#18 Posted by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: @jagernutt: from marvel no one

every single character of that company jobbed at a point within last 5 years writers like jason aaron and dan slott are the main reason

Here Eternity is referenced as encompassing everything. Surely that's indicative of power level.

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#19 Posted by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@rarelandpupper:

He is the embodiment of the "beyond realm". Which is stated to be millions of time's more powerful than the multiverse.

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#20 Edited by Quadro (17 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Please stop lowballing Secret Wars feats and statements.Vs Battles doing the same thing too and that is obivously not true.Retcon didn't effected abstracts at all.Still,there are some visuals explains that Post Secret Wars (1984) Abstracts are as storng as their current status (not adam warlock lt) at least statement wise.My point is,that doesn't mean they had no feats so they were weak and got retconned.Also i believe,there are some good feats for them.Can you show me some kind of evidence that proves they were retconned to the stronger selves ? That would be good but i think there is not.

The whole story was CIS+PIS and that is pretty obivous.There are a lot of evidence that claims that.(You mentioned plot progression so im trying to explain and add more)

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These are just some of them.

And Beyonder's best feat is not being embodiment of the Beyond realm.I think,it is Retconning himself and the whole Marvel Multiverse with it.Yes,he is the one who actually did the Retcon.

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Even we accept the retcon situation you defend,thats not a obstacle for Pre Retcon Beyonder and his Supreme power.He has both well feats and statements.

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#21 Posted by s1ckb0y (777 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by s1ckb0y (777 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly omnipotent to nigh omnipotent.

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#23 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by kilgpmktra (952 posts) - - Show Bio

@quadro:

@quadro: Please stop lowballing Secret Wars feats and statements.Vs Battles doing the same thing too and that is obivously not true.Retcon didn't effected abstracts at all.Still,there are some visuals explains that Post Secret Wars (1984) Abstracts are as storng as their current status (not adam warlock lt) at least statement wise.My point is,that doesn't mean they had no feats so they were weak and got retconned.Also i believe,there are some good feats for them.Can you show me some kind of evidence that proves they were retconned to the stronger selves ? That would be good but i think there is not.

It did. Not directly from the FF retcon to beyonder, but the conceptual and cosmic entities were more fleshed out later on down the line and were taken a bit more seriously which resulted in a greater depiction of power. LT is the greatest example of this. LT around the time of SW was honestly a joke. From Nebulos to not even being able to deal with Korvac wielding the ultimate nullifier. Really nothing special and certainly not this massive multiversal entity everyone likes to scale PR Beyonder from. After all of the Beyonder shenanigans, writers started making him deal with characters that were actual potential threats to the multiverse, like mephisto and giving him much greater showings.

These are just some of them.

And Beyonder's best feat is not being embodiment of the Beyond realm.I think,it is Retconning himself and the whole Marvel Multiverse with it.Yes,he is the one who actually did the Retcon.

PR Beyonder's best feat is embodying a realm beyond the multiverse. I don't know what handbook that text appeared in trying to retcon a retcon, but canonically, beyonders are responsible for the power that the cosmic cube hold which Beyonder himself was actually apart of.

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Even we accept the retcon situation you defend,thats not a obstacle for Pre Retcon Beyonder and his Supreme power.He has both well feats and statements.

Of course not. I'm not discounting what he did. I'm just saying his best feats really aren't the most impressive things ever and the only reason people think they are is because of wonky scaling that really shouldn't be applied to this version of him in the first place

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#25 Posted by Paytience (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@savythegawd: @rarelandpupper: It's not what we scale pr beyonder to, PR beyonder is one of the characters people here scale others to.

Cthulu/Lovecratian mythos is well above him however.

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#26 Posted by APEX_pretador (21255 posts) - - Show Bio

Xzone will probably scale MCU Thor off him.

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#27 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra said:
@jagernutt said:

@kilgpmktra:

Don't forget that he stomped the Celestials.

Tbh the celestials weren't all that impressive around that time either. The biggest statement comes from arishem's mind supposedly encompassing space and time of the universe. Not really a feat better than beating an m-body of eternity or something

To be fair, (and hey, I don't like Beyonder, I often say Lucifer stomps him) but the Beyonder confirmed that when he was fighting the Celestials, the battle was taking place on Countless levels of existence beyond the Physical or Physics which the readers could not comprehend. Which is potentially meaning he was fighting Celestials who were portrayed as Infinite-D at the time who were also portrayed below Eternity and Tribunal at the time.

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Celestials potentially being portrayed as Infinite Dimensional beings to Beyonder no less. Of course, it's an outlier, but an outlier scalable for Beyonder.

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#29 Edited by zgtfreak (2186 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder isn't above the DC or the strongest interpretation of Umineko. Against Umineko, the highest-balled non-omnipotent interpretation of Beyonder would be a bit below the highest balled EoS Game Master Battler.

@savythegawdVs battle wiki has the beyonder under both umineko and Cthulhu mythos. As it stands right now both of those two verses are considered the top outerversals.

VS Battles cross-verse dimensional tierring and their entire outerverse logic is laughable garbage. Do not bring their logic here. Umineko is multi-infinite-dimensional, not outerverse level. The term outerverse doesn't make any sense.

Beatrice rose to the level of featherine who is nigh-omnipotent. And bernkastel and lambdabelta can 100% no sell beato.

Beatrice never rose to the level of Aurora, she merely had the potential to. This shows you know nothing of Umineko and only read their incorrect VS Battles pages about them. If Beatrice DID reach Aurora's level and then Bernkastel and Lambdadelta could no-sell her, then they'd also no-sell Aurora and stomp her, but that never happened; this happened:

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So yeah, Voyagers are not touching Aurora.

The Creator (omnipotent)>Aurora and a hypothetical True Potential Beatrice>>>>>>>>>>>EoS Game Master Battler>>>>>>WoR Ange>>Bernkastel and Lambdadelta>>>>>>>>>>>normal Beatrice.

Do not debate a verse you know literally nothing about, let alone with VS Battles nonsense.

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#30 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

Do not Bring Vs Battles illogical Nonsense Outerversal dimensional brain damaging Thing.

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#31 Posted by jagernutt (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#32 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Do not Bring Vs Battles illogical Nonsense Outerversal dimensional brain damaging Thing.

VSBattles did not invent Dimensional Tiering, it was a thing for some time before they came around.

The garbage we hate from them is their methods of Dimensional Tiering (which is crap) and the Outerverse non sense.

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#33 Edited by cosmic_reign (3668 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

Celestials potentially being portrayed as Infinite Dimensional beings to Beyonder no less. Of course, it's an outlier, but an outlier scalable for Beyonder.

Why would this be an outlier?

OT

Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

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#34 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Multiverse level.

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#36 Posted by zgtfreak (2186 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign: Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

...What? Why?

@hellomanMultiverse level.

lol Define multiverse level.

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#37 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:
@sungsam said:

Celestials potentially being portrayed as Infinite Dimensional beings to Beyonder no less. Of course, it's an outlier, but an outlier scalable for Beyonder.

Why would this be an outlier?

OT

Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

The only thing that can be exempt from any concept of Dimensional, Cardinal or Transfinite tiering are Omnipotents, who are Absolute True Infinities who don't care about any level of Surpassable Infinity, which is something Beyonder and other Nigh-Omnipotents like Khorn, Yog, Feathers, Lucifer and Meng Hao is not. Apparently.

I only mean that the Celestials being Infinite Dimensional in general is something that only happened in Secret Wars, and not in any other storyline. Well, except for Scathan.

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#38 Edited by Supermanthor (21193 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by zgtfreak (2186 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor: Oh good. Earlier I saw him say composite Goku stalemates Battler because they are both "multiversal" and thought he was serious.

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#40 Posted by Supermanthor (21193 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I am talking about their Nonsensical methods of Dimensional Tiering.

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#42 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@cosmic_reign: Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

...What? Why?

@hellomanMultiverse level.

lol Define multiverse level.

If You are talking about Real Multiverse.[Which is theoretically exists] Then I agree Beyonder being Multiversal.Because There's no Omniverse,Megaverse whatever Nonsensical stuff.

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#43 Posted by Mister_Surreal (11438 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactic_1000 said:
@zgtfreak said:

@cosmic_reign: Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

...What? Why?

@hellomanMultiverse level.

lol Define multiverse level.

If You are talking about Real Multiverse.[Which is theoretically exists] Then I agree Beyonder being Multiversal.Because There's no Omniverse,Megaverse whatever Nonsensical stuff.

Omniverse, Megaverse, etc. are just larger sized Multiverses.

Like how the 5th Dimension is only a set of timelines created from the same big bang. Which can number to infinity, but all these infinite timelines share the same origin big bang and the same laws of physics. And does not contain possibilities of different laws of physics outside of its own big bang rule set.

While the 7th Dimension accounts for Universes created by separate big bangs with different laws of physics for each of the new timelines from each of these different separate big bangs. And so on and so forth.

Dimensions only really just increase the variability/diversity of possibility of an Infinite Quantum Multiverse and its sub-cluster groups of Universes and increases diversity of a Multiverse. This is one of the main definitions of the Pseudo-Science Dimension. This is why we get Megaverses.

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#45 Edited by Galactic_1000 (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Fiction Megaverses exists.

In Reality Multiverse is infinite

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#46 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactic_1000 said:

@sungsam: Fiction Megaverses exists.

In Reality Multiverse is infinite

Megaverse is relative to definition.

Galactic, let me make this easier to understand. A Megaverse, is just a group of a group of Multiverses. That's it. In fact, if a Multiverse is real, it should be Megaversal necessity.

I can prove this with reasoning.

What if there was a Universe where your parents never met? Okay, so different people are born in it right? And what if that Universe where you never existed, DIVERGES into infinite new Timelines? So there are Infinite Timelines where you do not exist that are based on when your parents never met.

How about the Universe where we are now? The Universe where you do exist, splits into its own Infinite timelines that have a Galactic_1000 in it.

See? So there is a Multiverse of Timelines where YOU DO NOT EXIST. As these Universes are based from a Universe where you never existed. As opposed to the Timelines where multiple versions of you do exist. TWO MULTIVERSES. Based on two outcomes. That is the way of the Quantum Multiverse.

So there are Infinite Timelines based on a Universe where Galactic_1000 exists. And another set branch of timelines where you don't. But what about the father timeline of both groups? That is a Megaverse.

Because it would not be true that every Universe in the Multiverse has a version of you in it. That is why, we have Megaverses. They're just catch all names for different clusters of Universes.

I'm not saying a Multiverse is real, I'm just explaining to you the origins of the concept behind Megaverses. They're needed for us to understand the various branches and sub-branches of timelines to categorize by. Extra-Dimensional space.

If a Multiverse was real, it would be Infinite, and each Megaverse inside the Multiverse is just Surpassably Infinite/Transfinite (not truly Absolute Infinite since it does not contain all possibilities, but contains Infinite timelines based on a limited scenario and various enough to be greater than any finite).

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#47 Edited by Galactic_1000 (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I know that.But Still very Thanks for explaining it.😊

All I want to Say That Helloman maybe Want to say Beyonder is Multiversal[Actual infinite Multiverse] level.

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#48 Posted by Yasindermann (1250 posts) - - Show Bio

In Umineko, Beyonder is only below aurora and on tie with Battler. What do you mean with ''the mythos'' Do you mean the cthulhu mythos? Beyonder stomps everything.

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#49 Edited by cosmic_reign (3668 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@cosmic_reign said:
@sungsam said:

Celestials potentially being portrayed as Infinite Dimensional beings to Beyonder no less. Of course, it's an outlier, but an outlier scalable for Beyonder.

Why would this be an outlier?

OT

Beyonder(s) should transcend and/or be exempt from any concept of dimensional tiering. IMO

The only thing that can be exempt from any concept of Dimensional, Cardinal or Transfinite tiering are Omnipotents, who are Absolute True Infinities who don't care about any level of Surpassable Infinity, which is something Beyonder and other Nigh-Omnipotents like Khorn, Yog, Feathers, Lucifer and Meng Hao is not. Apparently.

I only mean that the Celestials being Infinite Dimensional in general is something that only happened in Secret Wars, and not in any other storyline. Well, except for Scathan.

I agree...like Infinity, there are levels of Omnipotence as well.

Example:

Principalities(Octessence), Hell Lords and even Skyfathers are considered Omnipotent within their own dimension/realm/space. They are their entire realm and can manipulate it with a thought, and anyone/thing within that realm would be subject to that Principal. So by definition, we have an omnipotent. However, we know that there are even greater beings that are labeled omnipotent on an even higher scale(Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion) and so forth. Hence the terms "Absolute" and/or "True" Omnipotent can be used.

========

Anyways, post #44 was a damn good post IMO. I agree that infinite dimensions, timelines, etc are all tied to the same Big Bang that originally spawned that cosmos.

Here are some Celestials creating Big Bangs/Universes out the palm of their hands that each will ultimately contain infinite realities, dimensions and timelines:

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These Celestials should "transcend" or be "outside" of any dimensional tiering related to these new born verses as well as the Prime Multiverse, as the Celestials also had a hand in its creation from the "Outside"...

...which, at least to me, makes sense and justifies why LT summoned a Celestial(Scathan) to Approve/Disapprove the fate of the Multiverse.

Just my opinion!

OT

PreR Beyonder/Beyonders should be beyond any dimensional tiering as well.

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#50 Edited by Love_And_Hate (163 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder is something special. He is above everything and there is nothing that can compare to him.

What they tried to show us back then, was the paradox of being OMNIPOTENT. Many believr PRB is Omnipotent, others say he is near-Omnipotent.

I mywelf believe he is nigh-omni.

Beyonders appearance and feats were ment to give us an understanding that an omnipotent being can't actually exist as its existance ane concept is paradox even to that point the OMNIPOTENT being itself gets confused.

Dont bring religion and GOD into this, thats another story and if you are a believer like me ( I'm Muslim ) keep believing. If not, don't shit on me with scientific explanations.

Beyonder's existance showed that on a scientific explanation an omnipotent being cannot exist. And that this concept is BEYOND our Understanding! ( hence the name BEYONDER )

It is well known that an Omni being is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Thus many believe that once you lack one of the latter two, YOU CANT BE OMNIPOTENT.

But thats what Beyonder displays! HE IS OMNIPOTENT. He KNOWS ALL. HE IS ALL, AND NOTHING. EVERYWHERE AND NOWHERE. BUT IN HIS ACTUALITY!

Beyonders concept also tried to proof that an omnipotent that enters another existance, can't know about it. Because this Omni can just be the Omni to his own actuality. But then years later that nonsense sh*t called OMNIVERSE was implemented and fans around all world started screaming " When you are omnipotent you must be Omniscient and omnipresent because you must know about other OMNIPOTENTS EXISTANGES AND Verses that exist out there ". They tried debunking beings like PR Beyonder by saying " he is not aware of the Omniverse " blablabla. That stupid concept wasnt even implemented back then.

There is a panel where Beyonder has headache and explains the non functional part of being omnipotent is that reality is to you what you want it to be. If he wanted cows to have wings, they had wings. It tried to show us that an omnipotent that enters a verse he is unaware of, can't understand it, because he unknowingly is altering its fabric of reality with his mere toughts. Thats why Beyonder could never really understand the Marvel Mutliverse.

However his power is infinte. He is limitless and he was millions of times more powerfull then the Marvel Multiverse combined.