Rules:
In character
No omnipotents
No toon force
No joke or obvious troll answers
No stomps
Weakest Person who can beat the Law of Identity
I'm going to go with Meng Hao.
An obligatory answer from me.
that or maybe Touma.
@nwgzsjuwhm96y2: well she is a existence that a character that created countless universes couldn't overcome no matter how many universes he made and what he did. Here is a explanation from the novel on what she is.
That required thinking about the Law of Identity.
At face value, that was the undeniable principle that you were yourself.
The fact that you were the person who was thinking your thoughts could not be shaken and that had already been touched on when it came to proving the existence of the world.
But what if the world were someone’s dream?
That answer was also simple.
The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.
Then what was the world? The world was fiction.
But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.
From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.
What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.
That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.
That one would be too lonely to call a god.
They would be a truly solitary individual.
Then what was the world?
All the miscellaneous things added to the Law of Identity would be the world.
Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own.
@seagod: Whelp True False seal GG.
Meng Hao is just so versatile.
@thekillerklok: probably been better off putting her against popular(read as wanked) characters to draw attention. The problem being with that though the characters people love to use aren't in her league no matter how much people try to make them to be.
Statue of Anne
@seagod: The copyright law
eh idk man matthew murdock
@stan rodriguez: I see
@dirtytree333:think higher tier than that.
@nwgzsjuwhm96y2: Demon King Daimao
The Living Tribunal probably.
@seagod: Yes .
She is omnipresent and nigh omniscient .
She is pretty much nigh omnipotent .
She's notable attacks powers .
The Law of Identity: The Law of Identity is the one who causes the recognition of "I am me" in beings. In other words it is the undeniable principle that you are yourself. Without it no being could recognize this.
The top of all story hierarchies: The Law of Identity is the origin of all things. As such for it all things are like a dream or fiction. It can freely manipulate this stories in any way it pleases, creating every story that is describable. It lies in the nature of The Law of Identity to be the sole top of all such story hierarchies, even infinite ones, as even if an entity denies all things that it can as just being fiction the one thing no entity can deny is its own recognition of "I am me" aka The Law of Identity.
@seagod: none of them are omnipotents tho. Also i did some research and she seems super OP at first by scaling from characters backed up by statements but those characters don't seem to be knowing the the hell they are talking about. One thing they state contradict other. But she seems at least low-multiversal going by being above all possible timelines. So maybe Eternity
@seagod: well thread is a year old but im gonna answer it
Ultra comic would actually defeat her
He is basically the physical comic so tloi will have no way of defeating him or killing or erasing him unless tloi has a real life body (which it doesn't)
Any one in his comic can be rendered into text in the digestive system of the comic book and in his comic text is vulnerable to his criticism which burns them
"But wouldn't tloi apply to apply to him?"
Not really tloi would be a part of his fiction in the comic and he has real life presence in the sense that he is the physical comic while tloi doesn't
@seagod: A little late as well..
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.
This stuff seems to be stuff copy pasted from the VSBattles Wiki source. I would like scans and complete analysis in context of what this is. It seems to be describing things of fiction-in-fiction in context. Otherwise, she appears to be Multiversal+ existing outside a creation.
If Batman writes a fictional character that is Omnipotent in the batcave, Batman should not be implied to be Suggsverse level.
Please educate me on this one for better information
@seagod said:
@nwgzsjuwhm96y2: well she is a existence that a character that created countless universes couldn't overcome no matter how many universes he made and what he did. Here is a explanation from the novel on what she is.
The novel also implies that the universes/worlds from that verse are about the size of a solar system from this sample.
"Just in case, I had this gathering data that could indicate this universe is unnatural. As I mentioned before, one of those facts is the possibility that nothing exists past Pluto in this universe."
Regardless, if we retract this criticism based off of this source, since other's don't give us a size, we would assume that those countless universes are each, spacially finite as is described in real life.
Also, "countless".... get that "countless" has been used to describe quantities that are too large to count, but not necessarily infinite. Often times, in my life, that's what countless means and does not necessarily mean infinite. Just more than you can count in your entire life.
So from my review, this is barely even a Multiversal Battle Feat and is arguably Multi-Universal set of finite universes (with each universe being finite, spacially that is.)
I'm not certain how this feat would probably stack up against basic multiversals, but anyway.
@seagod said:
But what if the world were someone’s dream?
The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.
Then what was the world? The world was fiction.
But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.
From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.
What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.
That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.
Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own.
So this describes that this verse's cosmology is structured in this manner.
A singular linear ladder of descending worlds, each level seeing the world below it as "fictional" or "created by dreams". A multiversal feat I suppose. If it weren't for a few issues.
1. This does not describe an infinite dimensional cosmology, which, by far, would be variously more impressive than what's described.
Proper Infinite Dimensional Cosmologies, truly exaggerated to the max, constantly internally and externally expand. A part of an infinite dimensional cosmology that was once a 4D Universe could probably split multiply into infinite branches per constant by spatiotemporal movement, and those infinite branches could split per constant. In an infinite dimensional cosmology, all dimensional levels including 5D, 6D, etc. would arguably become its own infinite dimensional inside an infinite dimensional expansion if left into inconceivable eternity.
What's described in the novel is a series of worlds that get more inferior as it goes the level down, not expand or contain. Not an ever expanding, beyond comprehension hyperverse. It is also a fact that creations that are real to the creator would be a more superior, solid cosmology to destroy by feat than a magically virtual cosmology. one structure is real, the other is fictional, which has more cosmic legitimacy to impressivity?
All in all, this is really just a Regular Multiverse where all Universes inside a 5D Multiverse are sized or tiered differently, and each infinite one is a size of its own.
Ruling with Relative Omnipotence within a cosmology like this would arguably be vertically multiversal+ and is very impressive, but it would not be enough to stack up against IG Thanos or Eternity, let alone Beyonder, Molecule Man and Oblivion who are vastly infinitely multi-axisionally superior to a feat like this.
Also, please consider, that according to many articles I read, all infinite possibilities imaginable are already contained within a 10 D Hyperverse, most accounts I read that anything beyond 10 D is already beyond nothingness and is beyond impossibility and imagination.
There are SO many standards to prove a cosmology is a True Infinite Dimensional cosmology.
2. As NW said, the characters who speak of this really, upon slight investigation, they don't really know what they're talking about.
It appears to be in-universe theories. In fact, the suggestion that these are infinite chained dream worlds is only a "what if" theory or "even if" theory, and they vaguely describe many things. Which implies so that these are not infinite chianed worlds and are representing a "what if".
I would argue it would be a No Limits Fallacy for a character to claim another character could rule over infinity chains when it doesn't even exist for the feat to be proven and is only an in-universe theory, so they have no feats suggesting so and only by statement. But since I'm lenient, I won't use this argument, only implicate it.
We also do not know still if the universes are infinite in size, or if there are infinite universes, only implicated infinite hierarchies that are shown to be a mere theory.
3. I watched a TV show where magic can only exist in magical worlds that are virtualized in a magic book that is seen from the outside world as fiction.
But these Outside Fiction beings are merely regular humans like you and me. If this Magic Book were to be infinite dimensional, it would be nothing less than a sub-fictional, sub-dimensional microverse contained in a magic book. They have no power to bring magic outside the book and cannot manipulate the events inside the book either.
Simply put, the humans from the outside seeing the fictional beings with a living will of their own, they are incapable of truly interacting like Omnipotent to Creation.
Living and ruling over in a verse in a complex cosmology does not mean you are Multiversal or Nigh Omnipotent. You need to show feats and context if the beings outside that universe or cosmology even have the ability to control it, interact with it, manipulate it, create it, and if they can create it, how did they create it? How long? What was the cost? what is the context behind it? See?
Creating a verse is being too implicated to automatically mean High End Nigh Omnipotent when the details behind implicated feats is totally unknown and while is not an NLF in on itself, it does share fundamental problems with an NLF claim.
Too many unknown unknowns of information to properly gauge this.
4. How can we properly gauge a feat, from ruling over a chained series of worlds, that the verse even implies doesn't even exist?
Destroying, Creating or Manipulating such fiction-in-fiction, magic virtual reality dream worlds with artificial life and sentience in it is already highly questionable if it should even be compared to standard Multiversal feats at all.
Destroying, Creating, Distorting a REAL Chained Multiverse is far more impressive than a cosmology that is less grounded in reality and is even less than reality itself.
LOI has shown that this thing doesn't even have the capability to create something real, but only create magical virtual reality worlds with artificial realities in them. This isn't even really reality warping. This is artificial reality warping and is not the real thing.
The sample is similar to the TV show I once watched where magic can only exist in this book with magical sentient virtual life and worlds, seen as fiction from the outside and is basically somewhat 0-dimensional from our perspective.
----------
IN SUMMARY:
Law of Identity, I would probably rate at best? Multiversal or Multiversal+. The cosmology in that verse has little to do with infinite dimensional aside from being vertical cosmologies and people incorrectly defining infinite dimensional as "vertical". And from most indications, appears to be finite. Much of that description appears to be in-universe theories that are not repeated elsewhere but since we're being generous.
By the way, I am already being generous. The quotes themselves implicate that the worlds that are probably finite don't even fucking exist. So how can we gauge scaling a feat for creating/destroying/ruling over something that the verse even claims doesn't really exist and is just something like a magical virtual world with sentience? Destroying something real is more impressive than cosmic virtual magic realities.
I would say that the likes of Infinity, IG Thanos, Eternity, Bernkastel, Molecule Man, WF Mxy, Meng Hao can take her down. You probably need to be at least Megaversal+ to defeat her with my current analysis. Or if we use dimensional tiering according to my personal model, 10-Dimensional Omnipotent to 22-Dimensional Omnipotent.
She rules over all possible stories and all possible timelines? Possible and Impossible are to be taken with a grain of salt. We must be given a number as to its size, again. Writing "Omnipotent beyond Omnipotent" characters like Suggsverse is still describable as well and could be well under infinite possibilities but that is unacceptable, I would not dare think that this is included under the possible timelines. It's like the NLF with Demonbane being able to summon any version beyond non existing to itself from a Multiverse.
Character is not Omnipotent due to lacking Omniscience, and for that, could in fact, not know a lot of things it is incapable of doing. How do you know to completely rule out all possible unknown unknowns about the confines and limits of one's power? If people are going to argue TOAA and Presence's Omnipotence due to certain omniscience impotencies, therefore they must be finite and scaled, then the logic applies here.
Regardless, I'm veering away from Omnipotent Claims of Power for Gods due to authors not really understanding what that word means as like with Beyonder. There could be anti-Feats for this character that VSBattles or anyone else is not telling us besides her Nigh-Omniscience. Like how L-Sama's anti-Feat to her own Omnipotence was unknown to me for a while.
Just playing devil's advocate.
I know someone replied to me on this thread but I do not know who. The post was deleted. But I still have the shred of the reply. I will reply to it anyway.
@sungsam: Tell me you do not even read a chapter of the novel ichiban ushiro no daimaou
I could say the same about a huge sum of people who've never picked up a single Sandman comic in their entire life and claim characters with low multiversal feats can solo DC just because they "transcend dimensions". What's new? I wonder if the writers of such characters even know what dimensions are if they think you can transcend it.
I thought we're all used to this.
The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” It was thought to be dangerous to remain within it, so it was usually used to temporarily transfer oneself or objects or to trap intruders as a defensive panic room.
That is not a statement that every Universe in ichiban ushiro no daimaou is infinite though.
In fact, context and purpose of your quote “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” implies the need to point out that the dimension parallel to their dimension was an infinite space. Which implies their own dimension was not infinite for the need of distinctive differentiation or that not all universes there are infinite.
Meanwhile, every Marvel Mono-Universe as per Multi-Eternity is a boundless structure with sub-dimensions, levels of existence and realms inside it and are basically High End Type 1 Multiverses and that there are transfinite number of dimensions, clusters, worlds within worlds, etc. and multiplies into infinity for every infinitesimal moment, as well as dimensions between the boundaries of different universes even.
We're only scratching the 5D/2 Cardinality of the Marvel Multiverse, we're not even using higher dimensional scaling for Marvel's Nigh Omnipotents who can casually destroy the whole thing.
The real world, virtual alternate dimensions, outside the universe, non-virtual alternate dimensions, and the afterlife (just one part of a story)
Infinite possibilities exist as infinite worlds in parallel. (inside afterlife)
Akuto “recalled” a term he did not previously known as if scanning through his brain and retrieving the data.
Infinite Possible Worlds, Alternate Dimensions, Possibilities and Afterlife?
I do not deny that there are infinite worlds in Demon King, sure there is, maybe even Megaversal, I only argue that it is barely enough for LOI or Akuto to even warrant a Top 5 or a Top 10 in published fiction powers and that Demon King's Omniversal meta-density is less compared to the verses that are claimed to be fodder to its High Tiers.
Infinite Possible Worlds is something already descriptive for structures that Multiversals at the level of Crimson King, Beyonder, Featherine or Lucifer can fodderly rofldestroy and control. And the characters I mention can rofldestroy more than that. I still don't see why LOI/Akuto supporters on battle boards are claiming the characters I just mentioned are fodder to LOI. I still don't see it.
Everything you described of the cosmology in Demon King can still be rolled up into the smallest lowest levels of Marvel's Infinite Layered, Dark Tower styled Cosmology and is still a nothing zero to Umineko's City of Books and Fragments and certainly well below the likes of Beyonder.
And as an underlining note, Cosmic Scaling for cosmologies is totally pointless if you don't show up with High Multiversal feats for LOI that can rival big name fictions on the high ends on battle forums. Because any character in a story with infinite dimensions is not multiversal just because the Cosmology is big.
Even Post Retcon Beyonder who is literally just a Low Tier Cosmic Cube and a Low Tier Reality Warping Multiversal now on the current Multiversal hierarchy of Marvel can casually manipulate and recreate the entire Marvel Creation/Omniverse via someone else using his powers within a billionth of a second while he wasn't even doing anything. I still don't get it.
Final verdict, LOI is sub Multi Eternity tier.
@sungsam: Bless your smart heart
It's one of these again...
Writers need to stop being so vague.
Haven't seen any above multiversal feats so an original IG user should do the trick.
Going back to this thread. Just to recap.
All sources regarding Law of Identity provided in the discussion are merely statements from HUMAN characters who don't really seem to know what they're talking about with literally no feats or scales to feats provided. Who are principally not reliable when gauging Cosmic entities.
In real life, Quantum Mechanics and Dimensions are a thing in our scientific theory and our fictional stories today mirror our world's history (scientific theory history as well) and are certain to have similar theories, it does not necessitate to in-Universe theories by humans being true. Unless anyone wants to bring up proper sources and feats, I'll be all ears. At that point, most modern fictions are Infinite Dimensional thereby... no.
Cosmic Characters are far more reliable when talking about Fictional Cosmologies for certainty. Not Humans with vague theories.
For example.... Beyonder was the first Marvel character to have described the Marvel Multiverse as being Infinite Dimensional from his observations. He's a Cosmic being, he knows what he's talking about because he's observing the Microbe Marvel Multiverse. Same level of credibility when Lucifer or Mxyzptlk talking cosmologies.
That is all.....
Law of Identity
power
“Is this all the other universes?” The variously colored extra-universal gods gave a denial. “These are the archetypes that created the different universes.” The extra-universal gods urged him to look behind him. He looked toward the horizon without looking directly at it. The entire horizon was filled with shadows. They were humanoid and countless in number.
all these archetypes are part of akuto's story. they're merely fiction to him. the archetypes, by themselves are, outerversal. him viewing them as fiction itself would make him high outerversal but that's not the only thing here. there's literally an infinite hierarchy of these sweet bois stretching into infinity.
“A spectrum? What’s that?” asked Akuto. “It means they are divided into multiple levels. You could call it their story density. Think of them as having become stories to varying degrees.” “And we’ve done so to a much higher degree?” “We know that the world is fictional. Doesn’t that seem like a very high degree?’
“This is a story of divulging what stories are. The convenient deus ex machina does not exist simply as catharsis. It appears in order to tell us what it is we perceive as a story and to help us believe that the story is fictional. That god tells us of the pleasures and limits of the story. And thus we ourselves have become the deus ex machina.”
“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”
an infinite hierarchy of outerversal characters,
A basic explanation about the Law of Identity (Volume 12 Chapter 2):
That required thinking about the Law of Identity.
At face value, that was the undeniable principle that you were yourself.
The fact that you were the person who was thinking your thoughts could not be shaken and that had already been touched on when it came to proving the existence of the world.
But what if the world were someone’s dream?
That answer was also simple.
The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.
Then what was the world? The world was fiction.
But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.
From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.
What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.
That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.
That one would be too lonely to call a god.
They would be a truly solitary individual.
Then what was the world?
All the miscellaneous things added to the Law of Identity would be the world.
Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own.
the law of Identity transcends all history
Vortex Blaster Demonbane
the demonbane omniverse is composed of A never-ending amount of worlds with infinite stories indwelling in, simultaneous parallel expansion
The Universe inside a test-tube/The universe inside a reactor/The universe inside a coin locker/The Universe that shakes from the echoes of the drum/The universe caught within a brain/The universe wrapped like a paper inside a chewing gum---Shining like a clean kaleidoscope, bewildering
The universe! This infinite parallel universes are converted into a barrier that seals the existence of the Chaotic Garden!
Of the universe chained within an universe that is chained within an universe that is chained with an universe that is chained inside an universe...The extreme horizon of infinity/Center of All Creation/Ultimate Zero
With the melody of the feeble magical flute, and the beat of the mad drums, the nucleus of chaos has been sealed
The artifact itself contains infinite amount of universes, each chained and connected to another universe. An universe inside an universe for infinity. An universe chained to another universe for infinity. By using these infinite parallel worlds, they are converted into a barrier that seals Azathoth and The Court of Chaos.
each of that universe / multiverses
has non-euclidean geometric dimensions
the outer gods exist far beyond the infinite multiverses with spaces
non-euclidian
vortex demonbane
https://i.imgur.com/n9699OE.png
realdestroyed all macrocosms of the verse includingreal Azathoth
https://i.gyazo.com/8fe9d0c894a28dcc0b389c7e14f5bee2.png
demonbane vortex can invoke infinite versions
even its own creator could not destroy it
law of identity lives in the anti-verse a place where the whole story ends
is the law of identity capable of killing the demonbane who killed the creator himself?
Hajun
Taikyoku is explicitly stated to be the root of all things, and is essentially the origin of all phenomena and concepts in the universe.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401344667678/image0.png
Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.
This is referred to Yin-Yang or Duality, as Taikyoku is sourec of everything.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401969881138/image1.png
To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all. - This includes the infinite concepts constituding the multiverse.
That wouldn’t be enough, of course. Fortunately, we more scans regarding the matter.
Here is Yakou talking about the nature of Taikyoku.
Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967148593479701/image0.png
In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967172887019530/image0.png
What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967208559575052/image0.png
It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967273264971787/image0.png
My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967326155407390/image0.png
This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967361152417792/image0.png
Here, we learn that things such as “physics” are merely assorted natural laws. Taikyoku is something else, its scale is simply much greater. If a law among those were to become Taikyoku, all of creation, which is referred to as water, would change to comply with it.
But how big is this “underwater area”? What is the most impressive size that it has shown or implied to encompass? – I mean, none of these scans displays an infinitely-layered hierarchy or anything remotely close to that, does it? Well let’s see.
Masadaverse’s most impressive cosmology size was during Mercurius’ reign, in which the space surrounding the throne was repeatedly referred to as something so bizarre it was described as “Hyperdimensional”.
That place is none other than the Taikyoku Throne. The Nucleus of the Universe, the Center where all phenomena emanated from the existing Law.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616965811864862720/image0.png
Of course that is not the place where one can reach by walking and flying. It is some sort of Hyperdimensional Space, an extreme point that cannot be described by any language.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616965811864862721/image1.png
Along with the claims of the throne being Hyperdimensional ( in this context referring to Beyond-dimensional ) we have also seen Yakou Madara displaying his ability to dislocate existing dimensions – reaching up to 24D – during his fight with Tenma Ootake.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/660873729290534935/660873988138074122/image0.jpg
In addition to that, dimensional manipulation falls under natural phenomena control – which all originated from Taikyoku itself. So we know that the concept of dimensions (which has shown to reach at least 24), physics, life and death are all under/originated from Taikyoku and that Taikyoku also exists completely outside of it.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616989588853882880/kawncept2.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616989456792027147/kawncept1.jpg
What’s next to know is how these “dimensions” work:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987250823004166/latest.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987295958040659/latest.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987317751775263/latest.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987344838459417/latest.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987371098865676/latest.png
Basically, the narrator states that attacks from lower dimension – no matter how potent – will not be able to affect the higher one in any manner. Akin to how Soujirou’s slash did literally nothing to Tenma Akuro (Of course, the scale is different since this is no mere higher dimensional being he’s fighting with, but something else). Furthermore, it was even pointed out that Akuro wasn’t “tanky” or “robust”, he was simply disconnected from Soujirou, along with the entire world. And thus, I believe it is apt to assume that the dimensions in Masadaverse are indeed higher infinities.
Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called “Phase Difference” which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as “Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference”
That’s because their laws being “unlimited expansion/overwrite” applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn’t matter how many “layers” are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou’s attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou’s attempt to block Ootake’s attack. Taikyoku is something else.
Heck, it was even stated that no matter how the picture extends itself in potency, it can never harm reality – this picture includes both 24D barriers and physical slashes, they bear no difference to Taikyoku at all. Another thing to note is that, when new universes are created, they are immediately brought into the Throne’s jurisdiction.
From what we have seen so far (barring the fact that all mentions of Throne prior to Pantheon were most likely referring to the outer layer/lesser manifestation of the actual thing – which we have no idea how potent it truly is) here should be how Shinza Bansho universe is structured: In the grand canvas that is the world or All Of Creation, the first and least complex of them all should be the Multiverse along with infinite number of concepts that come with it.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616984663654662185/unknown.png
Beneath it lies a white slate composed entirely of “colorless” Taikyoku - only accessible by drilling a hole in reality via Taiji - generally referred to as the Singularity, of which features are similar to that of a primordial realm devoid of “colors” – embodying the idea that mortals define as “void” and stated to be a place that, by the command of the Throne God, concepts of the new world spawn from.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/617300295084539914/image0.jpg
Then there comes the most prominent of them all, The Throne ( do note that this thread won’t be using anything beyond the “outer layer” that was being referred to throughout the series ) which governs all above, keeping them and the spiritual pressure of the gods – which would utterly annihilate All Of Creation – in check.
波旬の色に染まった天は、神の重みに耐えられない。超越者が腰掛けるべく存在する『座』と呼ぶべきものが必要である。The Heaven that dyed in the color of Hajun, it cannot endure the weight of God. The thing that needed to exist so that those of transcendence can sit on it, the『Throne』.
And
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616965392077946908/image0.png <- same scan as the previous section, in case you’re too lazy to scroll back.
The proposals for upgrades will center around the relationship between these three main structures, particularly the Singularity
"Next is the Singularity, the singularity is a tear in reality to the Throne where the godhead resides. Usually generated by a clash of Hadou Atziluth-Tai between the Throne and the lowest floor (Multiverse). Basically singularities are created from the collision between the "Color" or Law of Hadou Gods, the world is "unaffected" by the Law of the Hadou where God does not exist and is not affected by the Law as they block the flow of Law and became the Singularity rather than be influenced by the Supreme Law (Atziluth-Tai). In order to reach the throne, the challenger may opt to drill through the depths of the Singularity using their law.
The depth of the Singularity varies in accordance with the ruling deity’s law strength (Taikyoku/Taiji). As such, Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality, and therefore will not be “drilled” or “crossed” without adequate strength - there are few exceptions to this rule, however.
Additionally, the Singularity is described as an infinite abyss of colorless Taikyoku/Taiji that can be comprehended and interacted only by deities. It is a “place” that gives birth natural laws and new ideas/concepts, and where the afterimages or shades of Gods from the past, who must be overcome and thoroughly understood in order to reach the throne, reside.
Despite being referred to as “place”, It is utterly impossible to define the Singularity due to its abstract nature: the laws of physics simply do not exist in the Singularity, and all of creation are mixed there, side by side - be it past, present or future. Thus, the process of “drilling” can be compared to “falling” to nowhere.
Lastly, It should also be noted that despite being naturally unaffected by the laws of the Gods, the Singularity is still under the possession of the Throne God."
According to the past revision, It was already pointed out how the Singularity ( realm of colorless Taikyoku ) effectively functions like an archetypal realm – allowing only those with Taikyoku to access (Colorless) or reign over (Colored), how it is detached from the rest of creation, sharing the trait of transcendence over the Multiverse with Taikyoku, and how each Singularity generated from each Throne God differs drastically in size. Though, there is still something missing, and that is how it relates to the Gods.
As we know, the overall size of the Singularity varies greatly depending on the strength of the Throne God, resembling that of the difference between individual gods strength – which are comparable to “layers” - themselves. At first glance, it would seem that the Singularity size is equal to the actual power of the Throne God. However, upon re-checking some scenes, it seems that this is not the case. While the former is most likely true, the latter is greatly contested by the feats and showings in both K3 and Dies Irae – as they make it clear that the Singularity enters the Throne purview, and is inferior to the Gods – no matter how much expansion done to it.
Here are some more scans regarding the Singularity – which I excluded in the past revision.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/617196368091545605/image0.png
“The Taikyoku of Hadou is, for instance, closely resembling to the act of drawing a picture. You have the Color of your own Law, that is the condition to raise the drawing on the Canvas that is the World.”
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/617196649730801665/image0.png
“Therefore naturally, many concepts that accompany with a picture can be applied. Then for example, under the pressure of the brush on the place where you had recoating it many times over, a hole will appear on the canvas.”
These scans explain that If the Gods are painters drawing their “pictures”, an undefinable hole that appears after excessive painting would be a hole and beneath it (this include the hole itself) lies The Singularity. And while it can be used as an interstate portal for the contender to challenge the Throne, the Singularity itself bears no power before the Gods.
Being a white slate under the Throne's purview (however, outside the multiverse), statements regarding overall structure of the canvas/All Of Creation will also apply to it. ( In fact, the space surrounding the Throne being described as “Hyperdimensional” should also apply to it. Though, it matters not. )
As such, these statements will also affect the Singularity.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987295958040659/latest.png
(In a nutshell) During this scene the narrator explicitly states that everything in the canvas bear absolutely no difference to the Gods. Going as far as saying that “no matter how potent something is portrayed in the picture, it can never affect reality” -
If you read the entire thread, you’d notice that I already brought up this scan in the section above.
Here, the Singularity is also described to be the “center of creation” and the act of overwriting it/flooding it with your Taiji is not any different than drawing on a blank canvas.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/610292156057255977/636821964811403267/image0.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616957975654957099/Singu4.jpg
And what does it mean, what are these statements for, exactly?
1. This means that, as a part of All Of Creation, Yakou’s statement also applies to it.
Particularly this one:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616967273264971787/image0.png
Since I don’t feel like copying the entire text wall from above, I’ll just explain the context. Basically, “If the aforementioned law were to change into Taikyoku” – then, along with the rest of creation, the Singularity will also change to comply with it. I believe this to be the case during the transition of the Throne Gods.
Additionally, we also have these scans:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/625236566327033856/image0.png <- From the anime that even the die-hard fans refused to acknowledge its existence. Yes, I’m using a “scan” from the anime. As long as it’s understandable and actually contribute to the revision. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/625231809612873749/image0.png - This one actually traces back to the brief overview of the Singularity scan, it basically tells us that anyone with Taiji can rule over the Singularity as long as there is no color already occupying it.
2. The second scan makes it even more obvious that the action of overtaking the Singularity is not any different than, say, painting over the multiverse. This, combined with many scans above, clearly displays that the Gods transcend the Singularity as much as they transcend the rest of the cosmology.
Besides instances above, there are also feats/statements of the Throne’s destruction that are quite noteworthy.
玖錠紫織との神楽で放つ際には、斬撃対象の変更と収束の術を獲得した。すなわち、かつて己が剣を受けた中で未だに生きている者らは、言うまでもなく壬生宗次郎という剣がその者たちを斬ったという事実を所有している。ゆえにその気になれば指一本触れないままその者らを斬殺できるだろうが、同時にそうした事実を取り上げることも出来る。「何かを斬った」という事実だけは消せないが、「何を斬った」ことにするかは変更可能。その術を以って、まさしく万象の座すら切断する絶対の劍を編み、紫織の大宝楼閣・善住陀羅尼と撃ち合い、第六天の法に亀裂を見舞い、無量大数の壁を破った。
Manipulation of slashes and its targets through change and convergence. Those who were struck by Soujirou possesses the fact "that the sword called Mibu Soujirou cut them". Through this, he can activate the attack again and kill anyone without lifting a finger. Moreover while he can't change the absolute truth that "he cut something", he is capable of changing "what was cut". This allows him to knit the strongest slash by gathering all cuts he mades as a human and realize it, creating an attack that's strong enough to cut the Throne itself
The quote speaks for itself. Soujirou, a member of the Eastern Expedition, could have absolutely destroyed the Throne had it not been Hajun who was sitting there. And here is the aftermath of fight between Reinhard and Mercurius.
hajun can invoke infinite versions like demonbane vortex
Featherine Augustus Aurora,battler ushiromiya and
Beatrice Ushiromiya
the 3 can control the script
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7061846-1.png
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7122157-26.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7061838-1.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7061836-0126859560-37.jp.jpg
come back after being erased from existence
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7048841-9102488862-JrQzD.png
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11125/111254398/6994460-6714467806-DU0rO.jpg
they all have control over concept
reality, time,space
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11125/111254398/7122620-4066743084-RedKe.png
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/when-they-cry-series-respect-thread.316711/
the cosmology of the verse is very big
Ange Ushiromiya
Probaby Lucifer Morningstar or PR Beyonder.
@mad_jim said:
The Ace of Spades
Azathoth
Divine Presence
Undoubtedly First
The Creator Umineko
TOAA
Kami Tenchi
Yog Sothoth
The Nameless Mist
The Unnamed Darkness
Gan
The Writer - Grant Morrison
Bro wtf the OP literally said "Weakest Person" and you listed literally the strongest people. Also don't list Suggsverse characters they are just godly wanked by the writer.
Laura Palmer from Twin Peaks could be a good match
She is an archetypical essence created in the abstract Home of the Mauve Zone in a divine ritual perpetuated by Senorita Dido and The Fireman, manifesting as a pure white/violet white behind her form's face in the same vein as JUDY with Sarah Palmer. When this essence is "activated" in the presence of its equal and opposite, the abstraction of JUDY, it causes a chain reaction that collapsed the fabric of reality around her, visually shown as a short-circuiting of the "electricity" which governs the laws of the film of existence upon which all realities are embedded.
@lucifer10: Still not the weakest.
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