Weakest Dragon Ball character who can beat esdeath?

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dhdfh

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Title

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Kingxix

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Taopai

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bgninjaQ

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Zeno

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the_alchemist01

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Roshi

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AGrape

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Whis

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WiseforAges

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Grandpa Gohan

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Lsoon23

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#7  Edited By Lsoon23

She clears original DB. Stops around early Z. Raditz saga Piccolo and Goku once they've powered up a little should beat her without trouble.

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gelato_exotic

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Gets one shotted by Roshi or KP.

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Eredin12

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Lsoon23

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Gets one shotted by Roshi or KP.

Any of Night Raid or the Jaegers would solo them both at the same time, let alone Esdeath.

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Trndo

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Kid Krillin no lie

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ShizzyDebater

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@Lsoon23: lol no, roshi is a moon buster and nobody is ga kill is even a country level with one attack, maybe esdeath but that's overtime.

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Lsoon23

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@shizzydebater: Roshi being a moon buster is an extreme outlier and you know it. You bring up moon busting Roshi and I’ll bring up Tao Pai Pai (who is tougher than Roshi) getting taken out by a grenade. Roshi is city level and gets washed any any Night Raid member.

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tauio

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from namek saga to t.o.p saga anyone one shots

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Programmer98

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Beerus' snot >>>>> Akame ga kill

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BOLTOK100

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Android 8( Frankenstein) murk's her

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ragegod

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@lsoon23: And Ajimu got one shot by a rubber band but that doesn't keep you from wanking the series

OT: Roshi.

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Lsoon23

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#18  Edited By Lsoon23

@ragegod said:

@lsoon23: And Ajimu got one shot by a rubber band but that doesn't keep you from wanking the series

OT: Roshi.

I guess it must be pretty embarrassing that a rubber band level characters low diffs you favorite verse huh? Maybe tag me with an argument next time instead of some pathetic remark, but I suppose that's out of your capability.

OT: Esdeath still murks everyone until BoZ Piccolo and Goku

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Floridaman29

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Tambourine or King Piccolo.

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ShizzyDebater

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No Caption Provided

@lsoon23: I'm sorry I dont get it, how is it an outlier?

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ShizzyDebater

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@lsoon23: yes because your DC says alot about your durability. Heard of a glass cannon?

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gelato_exotic

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#22  Edited By gelato_exotic

@shizzydebater: It's not an outlier tbh, stronger characters were later also stated in the Daizenshuu in OG DB to be able to destroy the moon for the sake of consistency. There's a lot more stuff that suggests it isn't either.

Tao Pai Pai was sort of caught off guard by Goku kicking that grenade back, and it didn't kill him either.

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AGrape

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bgninjaQ

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#24  Edited By bgninjaQ

ppl still believe in moon level roshi BS?

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Lsoon23

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#25  Edited By Lsoon23

@shizzydebater: Because characters far stronger than Roshi can only do this with their strongest attacks:

Then you have an even STRONGER CHARACTER only achieving this feat with a completely AOE based attack:

So yeah, thinking Roshi- and any other OG DB character for that matter- is moon level is delusional. The Daizenshuu claiming that Goku's final kamehamaha is LOLworthy considering that Piccolo tanked that attack already, and the same Daizenshuu even makes the claim that Piccolo's final blast (shown in the scans above) was his strongest attack. He was shocked that Goku could survive it.

Also, take a look at this:

No Caption Provided

Meanwhile Esdeath at her peak can defend against, and scales to, characters who can survive and overpower attacks on this level:

Can easily trade blows with a character than can send a mountain sized robot flying backwards, she does this while depowered:

No Caption Provided

Has freezing attacks that could completely incap Roshi:

No Caption Provided

And her strongest attacks are on this scale:

No Caption Provided

She fights evenly with characters who can easily dodge lightning:

And could just freeze time if she wanted:

No Caption Provided

In conclusion: Roshi gets washed along with every other character in OG DB. Anyone who has read AGK would laugh at the prospect of anyone short of Piccolo Jr. and Goku giving Esdeath a remote challenge.

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gelato_exotic

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#26  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lsoon23:

I think I already addressed some of your arguments (or maybe it was someone else don't remember) against Moon Level Roshi in another thread involving King Piccolo which you never responded after tagging me arguing against it first, which is whatever though.

Then you have an even STRONGER CHARACTER only achieving this feat with a completely AOE based attack:

Don't remember any sort of statement indicating those attacks were purely AOE based and it was the limit of their AOE, sounds like headcanon. Regardless though, it's almost like DB isn't a series entirely based around AOE, Ki control, and AP when it comes to fights...

Piccolo Jr's objective was to defeat Goku in the Tournament though, not actually destroy Papaya Island for no reason which was never stated, yet the AOE of it alone still caused extensive damage to the small continent sized Island as stated in the Daizenshuu.

No Caption Provided

Your argument here is literally the equivalent of saying Majin Vegeta is mountain level for creating a 1 KM crater in his final blast yet he already scaled far above even planet busters at that point.

No Caption Provided

Piccolo Jr's situation was literally no different, it's hardly enough to debunk moon level DB.

So yeah, thinking Roshi- and any other OG DB character for that matter- is moon level is delusional. The Daizenshuu claiming that Goku's final kamehamaha is LOLworthy considering that Piccolo tanked that attack already, and the same Daizenshuu even makes the claim that Piccolo's final blast (shown in the scans above) was his strongest attack. He was shocked that Goku could survive it.

Also, take a look at this:

Thinking a character is Moon level because they bust the Moon on panel and looking through the series it does hold consistency being "delusional" is new one... but OK bro.

Pretty hypocritical of you to say that the Daizenshuu affirming 23rd Budokai Goku to be Moon level is LOLworthy and dismiss it yet right after you go on to post a statement from the same Daizenshuu to support your argument since one fits your narrative while the other doesn't, blatant cherrypicking.

If you wanna argue that the Moon level Goku is contradicted because KP can tank it, why don't we look at how the Daizenshuu contradicts itself in that scenario too (with the KP statement) if you interpret it at face value if anything that's what's LOLworthy here, no small nuke could perform the feats King Piccolo performed levelling a city to the horizon like he did with ease, and the same entry even also states that he's easily capable of performing the feats in question so much stuff contradicts the only small nuke level thing, it's all over the place. If anything it's just reestablishing his feat at that time anyways and his power being comparable to a small nuke for that specific feat.

The Daizenshuu also states that Majin Vegeta's Final Explosion (scan posted above) had all his energy, yet it's AOE wasn't on that level, just like Piccolo. Piccolo tanking it is just a moon level durability feat for him and vice versa for Goku with his attack, just like how we all widely accept late Z arc characters being able to tank or overpower planet level blasts from planet level characters being planet level feats. No difference hee.

If you wanna use that one guidebook statement against moon level OG DB though;

Also, take a look at this:

No Caption Provided

Well I'll be..

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TakenStew22

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#27 TakenStew22  Online

After seeing the feats above I think it's going to atleast take 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku to go up against her.

Isn't that a country level feat I see for her?

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Kingxix

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@gelato_exotic: Lol that guy is salty dB lowballer. Its always best to put him in his place

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Kingxix

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#29  Edited By Kingxix

@takenstew22: it's mostly a AoE attack and it's DC isn't much.

But yes she can probably beat the low tier dB characters but against high tier she would loose

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Lsoon23

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#30  Edited By Lsoon23

@gelato_exotic: Don't remember any sort of statement indicating those attacks were purely AOE based and it was the limit of their AOE.

What are you on about? It should be completely self implicating that an omnidirectional release of Ki is an AOE attack, and it's very visually clear that Piccolo Jr. is putting his all into the blast. What is shown on panel is the result. Any other assertion is conjecture and debunked by on-panel visuals.

it's almost like DB isn't a series entirely based around AOE, Ki control, and AP when it comes to fights...

It's based around Ki. AP is derived from DC feats anyway. Ki control is completely irrelevant here when you consider than Piccolo Jr. wasn't holding back at all:

No Caption Provided

Piccolo Jr's objective was to defeat Goku, not destroy Papaya Island

Clearly he didn't care much about preserving the Island if he was willing to blast everything around him to hell, people had to evacuate so they wouldn't get torched. Did you even consider what you were typing before you posted this?

damage to the small continent sized Island as stated in the Daizenshuu.

Piccolo didn't even destroy the entire Island, so moot point.

No Caption Provided

Your argument here is literally the equivalent of saying Majin Vegeta is mountain level for creating a 1 KM crater in his final blast yet he already scaled far above even planet busters at that point.

What a disgustingly apparent false equivalence you've made here- a strawman as well. Not only does the guidebook specifically state that it's designed to envelop the opponent and create a 1km diameter, but it's also stated to 'affect the earth'; so we have a clear indicator of its potency and we have a clear indicator of its range. Majin Vegeta also has a consistent line of scaling to work off of while Piccolo does not have this luxury as I've already proven that moon level Roshi is inconsistent with what has been shown later on in the series. Lastly, Piccolo's attack is a completely different method of Ki projection, it's not a suicide attack, and nor is there any evidence to suggest that the damage it dealt was any greater than what was shown on panel. All you have is an assertion with no concrete evidence, so that's an argument can be easily discarded into the trashpile.

Thinking a character is Moon level because they bust the Moon on panel and looking through the series it does hold consistency being "delusional" is new one... but OK bro.

You're telling me Island busting EoS characters is consistent with moon busting? Huh, okay.

if you interpret it at face value if anything that's what's LOLworthy here, no small nuke could perform the feats King Piccolo performed levelling a city to the horizon like he did with ease, and the same entry even also states that he's easily capable of performing the feats in question so much stuff contradicts the only small nuke level thi

There's nothing to interpret at 'face value' because it's blatantly clear what's happening on panel. This is mostly assumption on your part, city busting is completely consistent with what nukes are capable of. Either way, it completely debunks moon level Roshi. This is horribly hypocritical on your part to try and point out logical inconsistencies when Goku's moon level kamehameha is one in itself. This is probably the most easily verifiable guidebook statement in Dragonball's history. I suppose you (like every other DB fan) just prefers hyperbolic statements without any fact behind them. Understandable really.

Pretty hypocritical of you to say that the Daizenshuu affirming 23rd Budokai Goku to be Moon level is LOLworthy and dismiss it yet right after you go on to post a statement from the same Daizenshuu to support your argument since one fits your narrative while the other doesn't, blatant cherrypicking.

It's called judging the information you've been given and coming to an objective conclusion, here is my thought process:

1. King Piccolo destroyed a city on panel, irrefutable proof.

2. The Daizenshuu confirms this by claiming he could blow away a city- proven on panel.

3. It claims that KP has the power equivalent to that of a small nuke, also consistent and proven.

Meanwhile the 'shattering the moon' statement:

1. No visual proof, nothing on panel to support this statement

2. No consistent scale to work off of as we know that stronger characters than Roshi can only perform city-island level feats while giving it their all. Roshi himself isn't even consistent as in his buff form he accidentally busts a mountain (emphasis on accidental, no Ki control or AP cope can be used here) but then busts the moon?

3. Therefore the logical conclusion is that it's hyperbole and inconsistent.

So no, it's not 'cherrypicking'. Just because one part of the Daizenshuu is flawed doesn't mean everything else is, that's such a pedestrianized and pathetically linear way of thinking.

If you wanna use that one guidebook statement against moon level OG DB though;

Well, good thing I never said that Roshi never busted a moon did I genius? An outlier isn't 'something that never happened', it is 'something that is illogically inconsistent'. Cool, the guidebooks are confirming what happened on panel. Outliers exist in fiction, like Batman tagging the Flash, Black Panther going H2H with Silver Surfer, Neo vomiting an entire universe and etc. These all happened on panel, but they're hardly a consistent showcase of what a character is feasibly capable of; keyword here is CONSISTENT.

I think you're not realizing that the evidence you're putting forward doesn't prove what you're trying to argue at all.

@takenstew22

After seeing the feats above I think it's going to atleast take 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku to go up against her.

Isn't that a country level feat I see for her?

It's her trump card but yeah.

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Lsoon23

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#31  Edited By Lsoon23

Didn't know I had so many fans, I'm honored.

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gelato_exotic

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#32  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lsoon23:

What are you on about? It should be completely self implicating that an omnidirectional release of Ki is an AOE attack, and it's very visually clear that Piccolo Jr. is putting his all into the blast. What is shown on panel is the result. Any other assertion is conjecture and debunked by on-panel visuals.

So Vegeta's Final Explosion, which was practically set up in the exact same context and was also an Omnidirectional attack (character releasing everything to specifically defeat another) was an AOE attack too despite being far below his DC? Not saying you said that before you go and call strawman, but it's what you logic would add up to. It's never stated to be the limit of the AOE they're capable of and DB has showcased Ki control and AOE countless times. Him putting his all into the blast does not prove whatsoever it defines the limit of his DC because of how Dragon Ball works.

It's based around Ki. AP is derived from DC feats anyway. Ki control is completely irrelevant here when you consider than Piccolo Jr. wasn't holding back at all:

Doesn't matter, Vegeta wasn't holding back either and his situation parallels KP. There's other examples of where their full power attacks "not holding back" don't have the AOE weaker attacks have demonstrated to be capable of. Remember Piccolo's Special Beam canon against Raditz, or Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell, or like, literally every Genkidama in the series? Yeah. Him not holding back proves nada.

And AP isn't necessarily derived from DC feats at all lol. Saiyan Saga Goku is scaled to planet busting AP for overpowering Galick Gun, Gohan is widely scaled to Star level- Solar System level AP for overpowering Cell's Kamehameha. If you wanna go with examples from other verses, my boy Pegasus Seiya has his AP scaled to multi galaxy level for overpowering Galaxian Explosion, or multi-Universal for severely harming a multi-Universal by feats characters such as Hades yet he doesn't have DC/busting feats on that level and neither do Goku/Gohan I mentioned above, doesn't mean their AP don't scale to those levels. AP being derived from DC feats is just.. not true. Especially In Dragon Ball.

Clearly he didn't care much about preserving the Island if he was willing to blast everything around him to hell, people had to evacuate so they wouldn't get torched. Did you even consider what you were typing before you posted this?

This is just headcanon lol, fact is his established objective was defeating Goku and not once did he state that he intended to wreck the Island. Just because he doesn't care about the Island doesn't mean he was trying to destroy it either, no statement or anything suggesting such.

Piccolo didn't even destroy the entire Island, so moot point.

Never even made said point in first place, just pointed it he caused extensive damage to the small continent sized Island which he did. Read what I say pls and thx.

What a disgustingly apparent false equivalence you've made here- a strawman as well. Not only does the guidebook specifically state that it's designed to envelop the opponent and create a 1km diameter, but it's also stated to 'affect the earth'; so we have a clear indicator of its potency and we have a clear indicator of its range. Majin Vegeta also has a consistent line of scaling to work off of while Piccolo does not have this luxury as I've already proven that moon level Roshi is inconsistent with what has been shown later on in the series. Lastly, Piccolo's attack is a completely different method of Ki projection, it's not a suicide attack, and nor is there any evidence to suggest that the damage it dealt was any greater than what was shown on panel. All you have is an assertion with no concrete evidence, so that's an argument can be easily discarded into the trashpile.

It reiterates that it creates a 1 KM diameter because that's what Vegeta showcased, what's wrong with that? And Piccolo Jr's attack literally enveloped the opponent too and was a

"final blast", not seeing how it's so different. Vegeta literally uses Final Explosion again in the ToP too, and it doesn't kill him. Pretty akin to KP's situation.

Lol at Piccolo not having a consistent line of scaling, he scales above Roshi obviously, and also a weaker Kami in Z who was able to recreate the moon with a lower power level than him and even kiled Shenron.

No Caption Provided

Scan for Kami recreating the moon:

No Caption Provided

Shenron can't do anything beyond his creator's power, hence why it scales to Kami:

No Caption Provided

So that's two characters with moon level feats that he scales above, so far.

There's nothing to interpret at 'face value' because it's blatantly clear what's happening on panel. This is mostly assumption on your part, city busting is completely consistent with what nukes are capable of. Either way, it completely debunks moon level Roshi. This is horribly hypocritical on your part to try and point out logical inconsistencies when Goku's moon level kamehameha is one in itself. This is probably the most easily verifiable guidebook statement in Dragonball's history. I suppose you (like every other DB fan) just prefers hyperbolic statements without any fact behind them. Understandable really.

Same Daizenshuu statement also asserts that he's "Easily capable" of performing said feat and contradicts itself there too. Lol you're the one who began this pointing out inconsistencies game and used Goku's Kamehameha while ignoring the Daizenshuu statement your banking on isn't any more consistent either which is why I pointed that out, chill out. Literally "no u"ed me LMFAO. Being easily capable of levelling a city to the Horizon is above what a "small nuke" should be capable of. Fact that you've already resorted to mUh DB fan dOeS tHiS hurr durr accusations already is kind of disappointing.

It's called judging the information you've been given and coming to an objective conclusion, here is my thought process:

Alright, I'll do my best to follow along.

1. King Piccolo destroyed a city on panel, irrefutable proof.

2. The Daizenshuu confirms this by claiming he could blow away a city- proven on panel.

Agreed, just like how Roshi destroys a moon on panel, also irrefutable proof, and Daizenshuu confirms his FP Kamehameha can destroy the moon-proven on panel.

3. It claims that KP has the power equivalent to that of a small nuke, also consistent and proven.

Not consistent when you consider the fact it also iterates that's easily capable of doing so and his feats of violently destroying a city should not be something small nuke level attacks are capable of.

No Caption Provided

Or I could ask you to simply quantify what a fiction such as the likes of DB considers to be "small nuke" level, in a verse with some ludicrous technology like bombs capable of busting planets put inside the androids and planet busting missiles from the Galactic Patrol, and even the likes of the RR Army and Bulma having out this world tech. DB has established that their technology>real world technology, but I digress.

Meanwhile the 'shattering the moon' statement:

1. No visual proof, nothing on panel to support this statement

Sure.

2. No consistent scale to work off of as we know that stronger characters than Roshi can only perform city-island level feats while giving it their all. Roshi himself isn't even consistent as in his buff form he accidentally busts a mountain (emphasis on accidental, no Ki control or AP cope can be used here) but then busts the moon?

And weaker characters than KP such as the likes of Kami can perform moon level feats like I posted above. And unlike the Moon Bust, he wasn't actually trying to destroy anything but the fire and asserts that he should've held back more due to not knowing his own strength, not seeing how this disproves him using Ki control when all it implies is he didn't use enough of it.

No Caption Provided

3. Therefore the logical conclusion is that it's hyperbole and inconsistent.

So no, it's not 'cherrypicking'. Just because one part of the Daizenshuu is flawed doesn't mean everything else is, that's such a pedestrianized and pathetically linear way of thinking.

It's not inconsistent or hyperbole when 23rd Budokai Goku scales above Roshi (who the same Daizenshuu being used here states that a weaker character's FP Kamehameha can bust the moon in the Jackie Chun entry,, weaker character is capable of destroying cities easily even from your scan, and that the stronger character is a moon buster. Nothing definitively indicates hyperbole or inconsistency besides mUh He's nEvEr done it so he can't which is frankly ridiculous. Piccolo Jr can still easily be chalked up to AOE and Ki control.), and scales above Kami who with a lower PL than KP recreated the moon whom was able to kill Shenron too.

Oh yeah, there's also the fact that between End of DB and Z Goku hardly got stronger at all, yet a BoZ character really relative to him in PL busted the moon on panel too.

There's only one singular Daizenshuu statement that can actually be interpreted to supporting City level DB and even then says easily capable of rather than alluding to it being his FP when even the Daizenshuu scans you brought up such as about KP it went out of it's way to specify it was his FP, while two that supports Moon Level DB, your asserting that your one statement with examples that can be chalked up to Ki control and AOE which is a fundamental thing in DB >>> Two Daizenshuu statements that imply otherwise, hmm. 2 statements>1 if you ask me.

Well, good thing I never said that Roshi never busted a moon did I genius? An outlier isn't 'something that never happened', it is 'something that is illogically inconsistent'. Cool, the guidebooks are confirming what happened on panel. Outliers exist in fiction, like Batman tagging the Flash, Black Panther going H2H with Silver Surfer, Neo vomiting an entire universe and etc. These all happened on panel, but they're hardly a consistent showcase of what a character is feasibly capable of; keyword here is CONSISTENT.

Never said you said any of that, just pointed out how if we're using guidebook statements, more of them support Moon level DB then not which is a fact, no need to take offense bro.

Yeah I agree outliers do exist obviously, don't know about Batman or Black Panther examples since frankly I don't read comics at all, but the Neo one is a good example. Don't think other fictions having outliers makes whether or not Roshi is an outlier any more compelling though.

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Maalik

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There's a difference between AoE and AP. Just because an attack has city level AoE doesn't mean it couldn't have destroyed something larger if it made contact with the ground for example. I don't think Roshi moonbusting was an outlier at all.

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Lsoon23

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#34  Edited By Lsoon23

@gelato_exotic: I don’t think I need to tell you that recreating the moon doesn’t scale to the potency of your attacks in any way. Don’t bother bringing up the Vegeta example because there is no proof that Kami recreated it using the same technique, and it doesn’t scale to AP either way. You also don’t have to assume about what the Daizenshuu meant as a ‘small nuke’ as they’re referring to real world nukes. City busting is obviously not beyond the capability of nuclear weapons and KP can lay waste to big portions of a city with casual attacks regardless. The island isn’t small continent sized either unless you believe those mountains are the size of islands. Everything else you said was assumption about AP and head canon that doesn’t debunk the initial claim of Roshi’s moon feat being an outlier.

Also, you do realise that the Vegeta feat quite blatantly has its potency and range stated outright by the guidebook? Why are you trying to apply this to Piccolo’s feat?

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Lsoon23

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#35  Edited By Lsoon23

@maalik: King Piccolo’s attacks did make contact with the ground... Piccolo Jr’s attack was an omnidirectional blast that couldn’t even bust an island. God damn, I’ve gotta start debating universal level Toriko characters if people don’t care at all about consistency.

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gelato_exotic

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#36  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lsoon23:

I don’t think I need to tell you that recreating the moon doesn’t scale to the potency of your attacks in any way

Hm, I literally posted a scan of it of DB establishing that Shenron's capabilities are based on the creator's power whom was weaker than KP at that point. Sometimes creation does scale to AP depending on the context of the series and if proven so, and that appears to be the case for DB.

Consider this too; the fact that IIRC Kami back in OG DB was stronger than KP too, yet later when he's weaker than him is still capable of a Moon level feat. He scaled to a moon level character (from my assertion) before and even when weaker than him still showcases moon level power. Not too relevant I guess but just some further consistency.

Don’t bother bringing up the Vegeta example because there is no proof that Kami recreated it using the same technique, and it doesn’t scale to AP either way

You're dismissing Vegeta for no plausible reason other than the fact it contradicts your narrative, when I've provided reasons as to why the situations parallel each other and establish more about Ki control and AOE.

It literally relies on power there's no reason it shouldn't, and what do you mean what technique, he recreated it through Shenron who isn't capable of anything outside of his creator's power.

You also don’t have to assume about what the Daizenshuu meant as a ‘small nuke’ as they’re referring to real world nukes. City busting is obviously not beyond the capability of nuclear weapons and KP can lay waste to big portions of a city with casual attacks regardless.

There's no objective proof to suggest it was, that's an unprovable assumption on your end about a fictional verse that's quite different from our world, nor can you quantify how strong small nukes are in the actual DB verse.

For a small nuke in particular if we assume it's referring to the real world, city busting that violently and easily is a bit over the top. If he can casually lay waste to large portions of a city like you said that implies he's a bit abovee just small nuke level.

The island isn’t small continent sized either unless you believe those mountains are the size of islands. Everything else you said was assumption about AP and head canon that doesn’t debunk the initial claim of Roshi’s moon feat being an outlier.

Here you go again denying Daizenshuu statements when it suits your narrative yet continually ignoring how the one you're banking on isn't any more consistent than any of the ones I've brought up in what it states. DB's Earth contains literal dinosaurs, talking flying cats like Puar and pigs like Oolong, but larger than usual mountains is where you draw the line?

Fact still stands that more Daizenshuu statements support Moon level OG DB then not if that's what we wanna use, and none of them are provably that much more consistent than the others being compared

Your assumptions about their AP being limited to their DC feats to dismiss the moon bust as an outlier is also headcanon too, and a pretty questionable with how DB has consistently portrayed AP vs. DC. At least my headcanon is supported by everything else the series and even Toriyama establishes in that interview where he mentions Ki control, along with the Daizenshuu affirming characters in question to be moon level.

Also, you do realise that the Vegeta feat quite blatantly has its potency and range stated outright by the guidebook? Why are you trying to apply this to Piccolo’s feat?

Potency?? Where'd it state the potency? It says it exploded all the energy in his body and had destructive power capable of affecting Earth, the potency would logically be above planet level at least, yet it implies it to be 1 KM mountain level, which is just not true. If anything it just states it's DC, just like the Daizenshuu does for Piccolo for example...

I'm applying it to Piccolo's feat because it's just a further demonstration of how omnidirectional full power final blasts operate in terms of AP and DC and due how the situations parallel each other.

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tauio

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anyone from namek saga to moro saga if they have there guard on then they smoke esdeath cause back in the day ssj goku stopped trunks sword with a finger

timer stop wont gonna do shit

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#38  Edited By Lsoon23

@gelato_exotic: Pathetic strawmans won’t get you anywhere. Let me dismantle this quickly:

Hm, I literally posted a scan of it of DB establishing that Shenron's capabilities are based on the creator's power whom was weaker than KP at that point. Sometimes creation does scale to AP depending on the context of the series and if proven so, and that appears to be the case for DB - you

Nope, how Kami recreated the moon is completely up to interpretation and you can’t prove that it scales to the potency of his attacks in anyway. What a ridiculous assertion. It’s once again debunked by King Piccolo having power equivalent to a small nuke.

There's no objective proof to suggest it was that's an unprovable assumption about a fictional verse that's quite different from our world on your end, nor can you quantify how strong small nukes are in the actual DB verse - you

LOL! ‘Uh... Actually nukes are different in Dragon Ball because I said so and it’s assumption to say otherwise’. What an unaware dunce you are. Prove that the nukes are different to real world nukes or GTFO. Not only that, but I was also referring to the person writing it as in its real world context, he won’t know the potency of ‘DB nukes’ (because it’s never ever stated, nor do we have any reason to assume they’re different) so he’d be referring to real world nukes.

Here you go again denying Daizenshuu statements when it suits your narrative yet continually ignoring how the one you're banking on isn't any more consistent than any of these in what it states- you

I’m really getting sick of your incompetence. I’ve already detailed how I judge guidebook evidence, also mountains in Dragon Ball have always been shown to be regular sized. This is seriously the last time I’ll talk about this with you because you’re just grasping at straws here.

Your assumptions about their AP being limited to their DC feats to dismiss the moon bust as an outlier is also headcanon too- you

So arguing with consistent manga visuals and consistent guidebook statements= head canon now? LUL! I suppose in your fantasy world Piccolo could have busted the Earth’s surface with his final blast if he wanted to, huh? Get out of here.

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tauio

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Guys i dont think roshi being moon buster matter at the end of the day

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gelato_exotic

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#42  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lsoon23:

Nope, how Kami recreated the moon is completely up to interpretation and you can’t prove that it scales to the potency of his attacks in anyway. What a ridiculous assertion. It’s once again debunked by King Piccolo having power equivalent to a small nuke.

Only assuming KP actually does have power equivalent to a small nuke, which is what I've been disagreeing with the entire time because of how inconsistent the statement in question is..

LOL! ‘Uh... Actually nukes are different in Dragon Ball because I said so and it’s assumption to say otherwise’. What an unaware dunce you are. Prove that the nukes are different to real world nukes or GTFO.

Lmao at you talking about strawmans but coming with this. You're the one who made the claim of what small nukes in the DB verse are limited to (city busting), I never inherently said they were or weren't stronger than real world ones, just asked that you prove they're limited to the strength of real world small nukes since that is what your argument relies on, which you've still failed to do and seem to be beginning to take your frustration out on me at this point with the cursing, lol.

I'm sure you'll bring up how I can't prove they're stronger in order to support my argument, which I can't, but unless you can prove they're akin to the real world nukes when this a fictional manga significantly different from the real world we're discussing since you made the claim first, this is pointless. It's no different to proving fictional lasers are LS, which I think you and I even discussed in a different thread lol. Just like you stated in that thread that statements or feats are needed to prove fictional lasers are LS, I'm asking the same here of you to prove that DB's small nukes are equivalent to real world ones since you're making that assumption in order to support your argument, hope that's clear enough

I’m really getting sick of your incompetence. I’ve already detailed how I judge gu

idebook evidence, also mountains in Dragon Ball have always been shown to be regular sized. This is seriously the last time I’ll talk about this with you because you’re just grasping at straws here.

Same here to everything you said. And since when? By "visuals" and pixel scaling? Lol.

Guidebook evidence=Secondary canon that holds true as long as it isn't directly contradicted by the main source material (anime/manga) correct? KP being small nuke level is contradicted and even in the Daizenshuu's own statement is questionable, but Papaya Islands size isn't unless you can find me an actual statement about the size of DB mountains, and neither is Moon level 23rd Budokai Goku or Roshi when you factor in AOE and ki control which is a very real well fleshed out and explained concept in DBl.

So arguing with consistent manga visuals and consistent guidebook statements= head canon now? LUL! I suppose in your fantasy world Piccolo could have busted the Earth’s surface with his final blast if he wanted to, huh? Get out of here.

I've been arguing with and correlating things thing with consistent manga visuals and consistent guidebook statements and fundamentals established and affirmed dozens of times in the series too though, have I not?

Roshi busts the moon on panel; Daizenshuu says he's moon level

Goku scales above Roshi; Daizenshuu says he's moon level

The likes of Goku barely got stronger between OG DB and Z and their PLs were practically the same; Piccolo who's relative to Goku decimates the moon on panel while suppressed

The inconsistencies you've been contriving against these statements do in fact rely on headcanon too, such as assuming their AP is limited to what their DC is showcased as, when the rest of the entirety of DB says otherwise. I can't definitively say those cases were AP>DC situations, but you have no evidence to push the possibility off the table either, however the dots can be connected when you consider how these character scale above a character who has busted and been stated to be a moon buster.

And yes that's exactly what I've been arguing the entire time that these characters are in fact Moon level, glad to see you've caught on.

You're welcome to continue responding or not respond since frankly we've been dragging this for a bit now and I'll just take it as an agree to disagree and drop it, up to you.

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Lsoon23

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#43  Edited By Lsoon23

@gelato_exotic:

You're the one who made the claim of what small nukes in the DB verse are limited to (city busting)

A blatant bald faced lie and one of the most blatant attempts at gaslighting I've seen on this board. This is what I said:

‘small nuke’ as they’re referring to real world nukes.

Not once did I specifically refer to 'Dragon Ball nukes', and nukes are city busting bombs-yes. You're the one making assumption, you're the one who made the initial claim that they could be different:

Or I could ask you to simply quantify what a fiction such as the likes of DB considers to be "small nuke" level, in a verse with some ludicrous technology like bombs capable of busting planets put inside the androids and planet busting missiles from the Galactic Patrol,

Where you make a terrible syllogistic argument via 'the DB verse has advanced technology, nukes are technology so therefore nukes in Dragon Ball are different to real life'. So if you don't have proof that they're stronger/weaker then don't bother bringing it up.

just asked you prove they're limited to the strength of real world small nukes since that is what your argument relies on

No, you asked me to quantify how strong nukes in DB are which was a point I never made. Stop lying.

Same here to everything you said. And since when? By "visuals" and pixel scaling? Lol.

Do these look like island sized mountains to you? That's how big they'd have to be to be easily visible from a bird's eye view of a small continent.

Guidebook evidence=Secondary canon that holds true as long as it isn't directly contradicted by the main source material (anime/manga) correct? KP being small nuke level is contradicted and even in the Daizenshuu's own statement is questionable,

I can't believe that even after 4 or so posts you're still being this completely unaware and dimwitted. Nothing is contradicted, you're telling me this:

Is somehow completely visually contradictory to this?

You have completely FAILED to debunk the Daizenshuu statement. Your example of claiming it to be outside the realms of a nuke is unfounded, you're coping. If you haven't grasped it yet, it's contradictory to moon busting because King Piccolo is proven to be a far stronger character than Roshi.

The inconsistencies you've been contriving against these statements do in fact rely on headcanon too, such as assuming their AP is limited to what their DC is showcased as, when the rest of the entirety of DB says otherwise.

You're not registering anything that has been said, you've made a false equivalence by comparing the Vegeta feat and the Piccolo feat, you've failed to prove why King Piccolo's feat would be out of the realms of what a nuke is capable of, you've failed to properly explain why Piccolo's final blast was stronger than what was visually shown; you've blatantly lied multiple times, gaslighted and strawmanned most of my arguments; you've failed to prove why the Daizenshuu statement can't be used.

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Lsoon23

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#44  Edited By Lsoon23

I think I'll leave it there though because I think we've both wasted enough time. For some reason my post doesn’t have pictures anymore.

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gelato_exotic

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#46  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lsoon23 said:

I think I'll leave it there though because I think we've both wasted enough time. For some reason my post doesn’t have pictures anymore.

Oh, really sorry, I didn't see this post when writing my reply.

I guess I'll just delete the post I was writing and not bother to finish then since it's not fair that your images got F'ed up and it's not a complete reply and I can't fully discern some of your arguments now that I read through. Agreed, this is getting pointless and it's becoming clear we won't come to an agreement and just gonna keep going in circles wasting each other's time.

Although I apologize for misinterpreting your point above, what I mean to ask is for you prove that the Daizenshuu was actually alluding to real world small nukes when it's about a fictional manga significantly different from reality with outlandish tech, which I haven't seen proof for yet. No hard feelings bro, never meant to Strawman, gaslight, or lie and that's the only time I did and it wasn't on purpose.

But I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me or what I say so often, I respect you and consider you a good debater and have been trying to stay as respectful and civil as possible, could've gone out of my to get overly hostile too but I'd rather not since toxicity<<<.

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Lsoon23

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#47  Edited By Lsoon23

@gelato_exotic: Don’t take it personally I was just a bit cranky aha. You’re a good debater too tbh.

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#49  Edited By GreyTheJiren

With Moon Level scaling Roshi might beat her if she stands in one place and lets him charge and hit her with Kamehameha.

WIthout it she can kill pretty much anyone, there aren't many crazy feats in original DB.

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gelato_exotic

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#50  Edited By gelato_exotic

@tdsx2: You guys are being lame and need to chill with calling him a salty DB lowballer like that guy above or calling him a troll because he isn't, just because he has a opinion which a pretty significant portion of the Vs debating fanbase has about Moon level Roshi being an outlier since it's a pretty plausible argument, even if you or I disagree with it.