Waaaagh on Azeroth.

The Dark Portal opens, through it pours a horde of nigh countless greenskin monsters....from Warhammer Fantasy. The mighty Grimgor Ironhide leads a massive WAAAGH through the Dark Portal, replacing the first Orcish Horde with his forces in the timeline. How does this change Azeroth? What's the extent of the damage he causes? Can he be stopped?

against

Callouts @wut@sirfizwhiz@killerwasp

I feel like the EK would be screwed.

Only powerful mages are going to put grimgor down otherwise his ride is unstoppable

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Your thoughts @wut

@paragonnate: Which WAAAGH? His normal one or his End Times WAAAGH?

I have a sneaking suspicion that his End Times WAAAGH might make this a stomp, so let's just say his normal one.

@paragonnate: Yeah, his End Times one was silly. Ran straight through the Ind, Cathy and Nippon with it like they weren't there. (Cathy being a nation that is very likely stronger then the Empire in its prime)

Eh, I mean, I think numbers are the biggest problem with WC, you have that second war novel that had 3,000 or so being a large army... they.. really don't have the numbers for Stormwind, alone, to face Grimgor. I don't see them saving Stormwind from being sacked again unless I am unaware of something (Although, I guess a Medivh that isn't /as/ corrupted is nice for the future).

Eh, the numbers for Warcraft swing around pretty wildly. In the War of the Ancients series you had Night Elf and other races armies numbering in the tens of thousands, and other sources besides that claim higher numbers for current factions than what you see in game or in other novels. Attempting to nail the numbers down is a potential nightmare.

@paragonnate: Indeed, but that was the War of the Ancients during the height of the once 'superpower' that was the night elves. This is Second War Alliance we are talking about here which is going to be far closer to Stormwind's numbers. That 3,000 figure is the only number for troops I have seen for this time period.

@paragonnate: PM, Nate?

Well, 3k isn't exactly small. But it is a bit on the small side for an army yeah. Making my way through the Arthas novel now, will see if there's anything more concrete in there.

@paragonnate: Its pretty small as they aren't nearly elite enough for that to be enough to tackle the large numbers of the orcs. Let me know what you find!

Arthas doing his Vader impression of course!

@paragonnate: Lol has he altered the deal?

@wut said:

IMO this battle depends entirely on how many people can get their shit together and who the Orks decide to fight first. Although I would honestly inset them into a different point to make it more fair. This was a fairly weak point in Azeroth's history

With Sylvanas yes. Goes to kill her, than changes his mind and brings her back. Dick move Arthas.

@paragonnate: When you get the time, I'd like to PM you an idea.

@decaf_wizard: First war was just Stormwind (You have no idea how much it aggravates me that it is the Kingdom of Azeroth on the continent of Azeroth on the planet Azeroth. Like, come on guys, that is just.. come on. Why are none of the other races like, 'Yeah, we aren't calling the planet what you call your nation and continent, that is dumb.'?) vs the Orcs, IIRC. Second War was when everyone else pilled in which I agree is, the least, where they should be coming in.

@paragonnate "And pray I do not change it again!" Call me a jerk, but I always agreed with his call at Stratholme. Awful decision to make, and I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want to have to make a call like that, but I feel it was the best one of his options.

To be honest I agree with his decision at Strathholme as well. I also agree with Genn Greymane's decision to refuse Lorderon refugees entry into Gilneas. One of the Scourges tactics was to send cultists into a settlement disguised as refugees to spread disease from within. Genn valued his peoples safety, really the safety of his entire kingdom, over the lives of a few refugees. Terrible position to be in.

Honestly, I see Stormwind getting overwhelmed quickly here, they aren't ready for Grimgor, just like they weren't ready for the first Horde.

@paragonnate: I never got that far into the Gilneas's stuff. As far as I cared, they were werewolf scum that I crushed beneath my Forsaken heel like the scrubs they were. :P

Yeah, its pretty much just a rehash of the First War.

Never did get why people hated Genn. He's blunt and a bit harsh at times, but he isn't a bad guy. His flaws are the flaws of a leader, some might even call them virtues. When not blinded by Sylvanas' impressive.....ahem....assets.

@paragonnate: Lol I think its just... he gets overshadowed by the much more attractive and interesting neighbor. That, and I have never been super into werewolves, so they never did anything for me.

You seen this? Epic.

Sylvanas fanboys were raging on the forums after this dropped. Going on about how Genn should have died, that he was out of line and had no right to attack her with the Legion marching on the world etc. Also, my personal favorite, 'Sylvanas did/has never done anything wrong!' *sigh*

Like the character all you want. Hell I love Sylvanas as a character. But at this point the only thing separating her from Arthas is her rack.

@paragonnate: Lol weird. The fact she is so dark and pragmatic is part of why I love her. Not sure why people would pretend she wasn't who she was. Not sure why people raged, sure he ruined her plans, but this establishes her as clearly the stronger of the two which.. you know... is something to be proud of if you are a fanboy.

Eh, Genn grabbed the lantern intentionally. If he was fast enough to grab something off her belt, then he's fast enough to tag her before she leaps away. He went for the lantern and took the arrow to deny her immortality and prevent the Forsaken from becoming Scourge 2.0, only now they would have been even worse with a whole army of Val'kyr, instead of a few.

@paragonnate: If he was fast enough to do critical damage, he would have done that instead of denying her immortality, killing her would be a far superior way of doing so. Instead, when face to face and she wasn't getting jumped, he got an arrow through him and walked way badly injured. <--- That isn't really what I would call a close fight.

The orcs simply have too many soldiers for the azeroth armies to counter. Grimgor would have to spread out super thin in order for them to stand a chance.

Azeroth doesn't have enough dakka.

Yea, I mean. The whole plot was that they weren't ready for, or taking seriously the threat of the Orcs. Which is a dumb time to put in an army like Grimor's

The Dwarfs have plenty of Dakka. Also, 40K Orks=/=Fantasy Orcs.

@wut: What if I place them (the Orcs) against Azeroth as of the second war?

@paragonnate: We are using In Character Grimgor right?

If so, Azeroth, as in the world, does fine. They never get Stormwind back, that just isn't really going to happen because it is going to be burnt to the ground and the south is going to be green. The Eastern Kingdoms are okay though because... its not in Grimgor's character to conquest or rage wars of extinction. He did so in End Times but that was a special case and was very out of character for him.

He does what he has always done, goes looking for fights. Pre-End Times, what Grimgor did was hang out killing dwarfs, rival orcs and skaven then, when he grew bored, he would come down from the mountains and murder a path through the southern empire provinces, but he doesn't go for the biggest cities, he likes to fight. Like, at Karak Kadrin, IIRC, he camped outside and killed the armies they sent at him, when they stopped, he got bored and buggered off somewhere else.

So, if it is IC Grimgor, it is likely he spends most of his time fighting the Troll tribes in the south, the Wildhammer and Iron Forge dwarfs and, occasionally when he gets bored, goes north to fight Stromgarde. Attempts at retaking Stormwind end badly for everyone, Orcs spread throughout Azeroth, the continent, and become a major pain for everyone with more ambitious warbosses raising up, getting defeated, etc. Grimgor keeps doing Grimgor.

@wut: Wildhammer Dwarves are on the northern half of the continent, across the span. He'd have o go through the Ironforge Dwaves entire homeland and then make it across the Thandol Span. two small bridges guarded by now pissed off dwarves. Can he pull that off? Also, how would people like Magni or Muradin stack up against Grimgor?

@paragonnate: Yes? He crosses nations all the time to fight nations on the other end. He had to cross the span of the World's Edge Mountains to get where he is now and he often goes back down it to fight some dwarfs and rebel orcs, goes back up to fight skaven, crosses them, and the very narrow chokepoint gaps, to raid the empire and then comes back again. This.. is literally all he does. IF you tell Grimgor, "There is an army of stunties waiting for you at a narrow bridge!" He is going to be extremely excited. That is just the kind of orc he is. He loves to fight.

The dragon flight solos

What about Muradin and Magni against Grimgor?

They didn't show up to stomp the Orcish Horde any time during the First, Second, or Third Wars, they aren't suddenly going to do it now.

@paragonnate: Don't know much about their individual feats, got any examples of some goods ones?

:P Of course they didn't, the Red Flight was too busy being enslaved by the Orcs like the sissies they were.

@wut: Don't know much about their individual feats, got any examples of some goods ones?

Not off the top of my head, I'd have to go digging. Pretty sure they can temporarily turn themselves to stone, Dwarf ancestors were creatures of living stone made by the Titans, to boost their durability and strength. Muradin trained Arthas by beating the crap out of him over and over until Arthas got better, also had no problem fighting dirty to win. Also Dwarves are stronger than humans IIRC, due to much denser muscles, so dense in fact that it makes it difficult for Dwarves to even swim due to their weight IIRC.

:P Of course they didn't, the Red Flight was too busy being enslaved by the Orcs like the sissies they were.

I mean, it's not like the Orcs had possession of one of the most powerful magic items in the setting, the one artifact that allowed the wielder to mentally dominate any dragon save Deathwing because it had a piece of all of the Dragon Aspects souls in it. Looking back, and at the various Aspects showings, the Dragon Soul was OP as hell. It even one shot the entire Blue Flight during the War of the Ancients.

@wut: Don't know much about their individual feats, got any examples of some goods ones?

Found a feat for Muradin's Stoneform/Avatar powers. The thing that lets him and other Dwarves turn into stone enhanced beings. It also increases their size and gives them elemental powers. This is Muradin with amnesia.

@paragonnate: That Avatar form isn't going to be super useful in terms of defense. Gitsnik, the axe, had no issues chewing through solid stone when Grimgor used it to turn a massive boulder into an effigy of Gork. Being able to throw around lightning hammers will be useful though.

I mean, it's not like the Orcs had possession of one of the most powerful magic items in the setting, the one artifact that allowed the wielder to mentally dominate any dragon save Deathwing because it had a piece of all of the Dragon Aspects souls in it. Looking back, and at the various Aspects showings, the Dragon Soul was OP as hell. It even one shot the entire Blue Flight during the War of the Ancients.

Beaten by a shinny coin. Sissies all of them!

@wut: Lightning hammers, and lightning enhanced strikes with other swings in melee. He nearly decapitated a creature large enough to swallow a dwarf whole. Could Grimgor for tank a hit that powerful?

@paragonnate: When Archaon and Be'lakor were fighting, they were cutting pillars and knocking each other through castle walls. Grimgor had no problem trading those kinds of blows. He would have to have comparable durability for his body to not, literally, tear itself to pieces (He also has a pretty potent health regen, when he was shot in the head by the arrow, it fell out and his wound had already scabbed over just moments after.)

Although not sure why he needs to 'tank' it. Not like Grimgor needs to stand there and let it hit him.

@wut: I'm giving Muradin the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he'll tag Grimgor at least once if they fight. Maybe not with a hammer throw but in melee

@paragonnate: I have my doubts on hitting him at range though depending on how fast they can throw that hammer. Grimgor has some crazy reflexes considering the speeds he and others on his level can swing their weapons and block swings from others like them. Especially since they are likely to bump into each other in the middle of a battlefield, likely in the thickest melee spots considering that is where Grimgor goes.

@wut: Muradin should make an appearance later in the Arthas novel, will keep an eye out for anything good.

@paragonnate: Keep me posted! (He was one of my favorites in WC3 campaign, so I want to see what he can do.)

@wut: On the discussion of numbers for Warcrafts armies I just thought of something. Many races have been through at least one genocide level event sometime in the last generation. Human's through several, the fall of the original Stormwind, which had only a small fleet escape as mentioned in the Arthas novel, the rest of the survivors were likely either killed outright or taken as slaves by the First Orcish Horde. Then the Second War where the Orcs had dragons as mounts, and the assistance of Deathwing and both factions throwing everything they had into the war, likely resulting in an atrocious death toll. Then the Horde's defeat, the Orc survivors on the Azeroth side of the Dark Portal being placed into internment camps, likely causing a large number of deaths again. Then the Orc's escape when being lead by Thrall, sparking another minor conflict in which there are deaths on both sides, the Orc's leave for Kalimdor en mass. Then the brief war against the proto-Scourge by Arthas, the destruction of multiple villages and the city of Strathholme. Then Arthas wanders off to Northrend, goes crazy, kills his men and gets Frostmourne, loss of an entire military force that required its own fleet for transport. The the annihilation of all of Lorderon at the hands of the Scourge, the kingdom remains a lifeless wasteland to this day. The destruction of Quel'Thalas at the hands of the Scourge, in which 90% of the High Elven population is massacred, and a number of the survivors go insane due to Magic addiction and withdrawal due to the loss of the Sunwell.

Then there's the brief Third War where more Alliance and Horde die, then the invasion of the Burning Legion, lots of death for everyone in general, and the destruction of Dalaran, even if they managed to save part of the city the death toll would have been catastrophic. Then the war against the Burning Legion comes to an end, after large battles with tons of Alliance, Horde and the then independent Night Elf nation dying, Archimonde is defeated at the cost of the loss of the big important Night Elf tree whose name I can't bother to remember at the moment.

The current Alliance and Horde form and almost instantly go to war, like morons. More death.

Then Burning Crusade happens, another battle against the Legion, granted this on was smaller but still, and still fighting between the Alliance and Horde at the same time. More death. Also the Draenei ship , which carries all that's left of their people, crashes and lots of their people die. Blood Elves join the Horde and start fighting in the faction war, causing more of their surviving people to die.

Then Wrath of the Lich King, Scourge invades everyone, with lots of death for all. Horde and Alliance call a truce and team up on Arthas, fighting in Northrend results in many deaths all around and the loss of entire armies.

Cataclysm, a Dragon Aspect causes natural disasters the like of which the world has never seen, that alone brings a large death toll, then more Horde/Alliance fighting and the Old Gods starts doing some Lovecraftian crap and people die. Point is, lots of death, total death toll world wide is likely enough to be another genocide level event for the planet as a whole.

Then Mists of Pandaria, Garrosh goes off the deep end and unleashes several super weapons, destroying Theramore, a human city and what's left of Dalaran is also damaged. More death for Alliance and Horde all around. Also, Gilneas is royally screwed and nearly all survivors are cursed to be Worgen, they're still technically human so that brings the humans up to 3 genocide level events and 3 kingdoms entire populations now nearly entirely wiped out with the survivors banding together in Stormwind.

The Warlords of Draenor, which I didn't play much of, but more death for all is a safe bet.

Now Legion, another Burning Legion invasion, this time the Legion is serious and sends it's largest force yet. Lots of death. Also, the Legion has space ships with BS powerfull weapons.....ow.

Point is most of the factions as they stand now, are remnants of nations that have been hit hard. Crazy thing is, I'm betting there's a ton of stuff I missed that caused large death tolls, so tac all those on. The only ones I can think of that haven't been hit like that are the Dwarves of Khaz Modan, and even then they've been fighting a civil war with the Dark Irons for years now.