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#1 Posted by silentbat (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised this isn't in the battle thread. So ... here it goes ...

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#2 Posted by TT_4_Humanity (135 posts) - - Show Bio

You need a few details about the battle.

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#3 Posted by Cregan_Stark (5153 posts) - - Show Bio

A straight duel with regular wands? This is a good fight, a really good fight. This is one that I've thought about many times.

Dumbledore was able to defeat both of them, he defeated Grindelwald while Grindelwald held the Elder Wand; on the other hand he handily defeated Voldemort while restraining LeStrange and Harry all at the same time. We know that neither can defeat Dumbledore but which is the lower feat; losing to him while holding the Elder Wand or losing to him while he restrains two other people at the same time?

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#4 Posted by silentbat (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

Details: They are both in their primes. Grindelwald has the Elder Wand (let's say Dumbledore never got it) and Voldemort has his standard wand with no horcruxes.

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#5 Posted by jayc1324 (26421 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald IMO. Close and hard to judge though. Only because he has the elder wand.

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#6 Posted by RedLantern23 (898 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort. Grindewald has almost no feats.

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#7 Posted by rogueshadow (29159 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort, he was often said to be the most powerful Dark Lord in history, a title Gellert previously held.

I would love to see Dumbledore kicking arse in his prime.

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#8 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald. Dumbledore was just a shade better than him, while dumbledore >> voldemort.

Voldemort, he was often said to be the most powerful Dark Lord in history, a title Gellert previously held.

I would love to see Dumbledore kicking arse in his prime.

well, that's because grindelwald stayed away from the country dumbledore was in - smart, if you ask me. Dumbledore only fought him when it was established that he was unstoppable.

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#9 Posted by SkulI_Crusher (14 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald won. Voldemort killed Grindelwald because Grindelwald was old.

And Grindelwald have the Elder Wand(or Wand of Wands, if you prefer) and can fight Dumbledore one-in-one. Voldemort lose to Dumbledore.

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#10 Edited by decaf_wizard (16822 posts) - - Show Bio

prime Dumbledore beat Grindelwald with the elder wand in a slight victory. Old dumbledore (who admitted he was far past his prime) beat voldemort while restraining two people(although he had elder wand here). If both had elder wand or both had normal wand i would say grindlewald would win both.

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#11 Posted by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald.

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#12 Edited by cpt_nice (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald battled for hours with Dumbledore, meaning they were extremely close. While Dumbledore could not finish off Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic, I attribute that mostly to him having to deal with Harry being there too. Although, I have reason to believe D was holding back vs G because of their friendship, so he was looking to incapacitate him, not kill.

Grindelwald wins, but with extreme difficulty.

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#13 Posted by SkulI_Crusher (14 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald wins. There aren't any evidence that Dumbledore vs. Voldemort >>> Dumbledore vs. Grindelwald. Grindelwald = Dumbledore. Dumbledore >> Voldemort. Meaning Grindewald >> Voldemort.

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#14 Posted by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort by feats, although Grindelwald has better hype, by people whose opinions actually matter.

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#15 Edited by TheGrayGhost (4173 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldy wins.He could match Albus in a fight with the elder wand to the point where Fawkes had to eat a curse so Albus could live.In addition he can fly. Even Albus can't do that .Snape mentions how Albus was shaken from the fight in book 6.

Grindelwald lost to Albus *despite* the elder wand and Albus possibly holding back .

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#16 Posted by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldy wins.He could match Albus in a fight with the elder wand to the point where Fawkes had to eat a curse so Albus could live.In addition he can fly. Even Albus can't do that .Snape mentions how Albus was shaken from the fight in book 6.

Grindelwald lost to Albus *despite* the elder wand and Albus possibly holding back .

Where? From reading it Dumbleore wasn't really struggling (and one of his statues could have tanked Voldie's AK had it not been protecting Harry). Or he could dodging it with teleportation, which he has done.

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#17 Posted by cpt_nice (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost: Dumbledore had to make sure Harry was safe when he was fighting Voldie, so he did not go all out for that fight either.

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#18 Posted by TheGrayGhost (4173 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Spinners end . When talking to Narcissa and Bellatrix . He mentions the horcrux ring injury as a separate issue .

The statue thing seems implausible given a) he was out of statues cept the ones pinning Bellatrix and Harry and b) it was a 2 pronged attack ( snake + curse)

He *could have* done a lot of things but fact is he needed Fawkes as back up for this one . Voldy didn't need Nagini to eat curses for him for instance

All in all Tom was matching him with the freakin elder wand despite wanting a quick win + escape till he decided to possess Harry

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#19 Posted by TheGrayGhost (4173 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Eh Dumbledore didn't seem unduly concerned till he possesed Harry . To that point after his appearance he never once directly attacked Harry during the duel

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#20 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald can win here

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#21 Edited by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost: He was lieing. He says right after that Dumbledore was getting weaker with age and acquired his burnt hand in a fight. It seems to me that he wanted to explain Dumbledore's injuries in a way that would appeal to Voldemort and hs posse;that Dumbledore was a weakening old man and Voldemort was the stronger of the two. I mean otherwise Voldemort might reslise that Dumbledore had been fiddling with his horcruxes. And from what we saw of the fight Dumbledore was not that pressured tbh.

He sent two other statues into the Floo Network at the start of the fight , to get Fudge, so that is four statues that he had removed from the fight beforehand. Anyone of them could have shielded him in Fawkes place. And he has shown by feats that he can time Voldemort's spells. He could, by feats, have done without Fawkes.

I honestly think that the Elder Wand is overrated in verse, it's desugned to be a trap, so IMO it does just enough to be able to create this hype, nowhere near it's vaunted 'invincability'.

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#22 Posted by Mije_101 (1533 posts) - - Show Bio

Tom tbh.

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#23 Edited by TheGrayGhost (4173 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Eh maybe about the lying bit

He showed himself capable of dealing with one curse at a time , not two attacks at the same time . He *could* have maybe done without Fawkes but "based on feats", he lacks feats to suggest he could have survived both the attacks at the same time

Also about the statues, Voldemort used shields alone to block or counter curses so really ....pointing out the lack of environment cover doesn't exactly help Albus' case if he is ultimately someone who needs the environment to beat Voldy

As for the Elder wand , nobody had beaten an Elder wand user in direct combat like ever to the point where Harry, a fairly average wizard who was Pwned by Snape , could beat someone who could thrash 3 Snape level wizards at the same time with a malfunctioning wand because of how the elder wand worked : he ultimately had both wands in the duel working for him

Harry, again a fairly average wizard , could repair his own wand with the Elder wand when Ollivander , the greatest wand expert of his age couldn't

I don't think its a stretch to say the Elder Wand is the most powerful wand in the series by far and actually beating someone in a straight up duel with the wand as opposed to only stalemating the other in a straight up duel while *weilding* the wand ,puts one clearly above the other

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#24 Posted by ValarMelkor (5165 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort. Grindelwald lost to a younger Dumbledore without the Elder Wand. Voldemort stalemated an older more experienced Dumbledore with the Elder Wand which was supposed to be unbeatable, and guarantee it's wielder victory in any duel.

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#25 Posted by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

He showed himself capable of dealing with one curse at a time , not two attacks at the same time . He *could* have maybe done without Fawkes but "based on feats", he lacks feats to suggest he could have survived both the attacks at the same time

He just teleports away, like how he dealed with the other AK Voldemort sent his way. A two pronged attack means nothing if he's not there. And the statues are fast enough to cover him from AKs, there's no reason one couldn't have took the AK while Albus dealed with the snake.

Also about the statues, Voldemort used shields alone to block or counter curses so really ....pointing out the lack of environment cover doesn't exactly help Albus' case if he is ultimately someone who needs the environment to beat Voldy

He just conjures some objects, like how Voldemort can conjure shields or snakes out of nothing. Even a wounded Mr. Weasley could conjure several chairs quickly, so Dumbledore could create cover and animate that. Anyway Dumbledore has shown more impressive spells in general (his fire whips, his spell that could oneshot Fudge's group, that spell that was very difficult to block in their duel, hydrokinesis, other pyrokinetic feats, animating several things at once, etc.) and better speed (teleporting out of spells' ways, blitzing Fudge's group and Harry) and hype.

And I believe that AKs can be blocked by conjured obstacles, like how Voldie blocked Dumbledore's uber-spell with a silver shield.

As for the Elder wand , nobody had beaten an Elder wand user in direct combat like ever to the point where Harry, a fairly average wizard who was Pwned by Snape , could beat someone who could thrash 3 Snape level wizards at the same time with a malfunctioning wand because of how the elder wand worked : he ultimately had both wands in the duel working for him

So, Voldemort had none? Lol, it's even worse - his wand worked against him. That wasn't a fight at all, and the Elder Wand has no feats bar one.

Harry, again a fairly average wizard , could repair his own wand with the Elder wand when Ollivander , the greatest wand expert of his age couldn't

This is the only one and it's not even a combat feat.

I don't think its a stretch to say the Elder Wand is the most powerful wand in the series by far and actually beating someone in a straight up duel with the wand as opposed to only stalemating the other in a straight up duel while *weilding* the wand ,puts one clearly above the other

Er, I don't follow that I'm afraid. It is the most powerful, but it's effect is ultimately unquantifiable. And I doubt it really made a difference, Dumbledore never tried to overpower Voldemort, he only ever outmaneuvered him from what I've seen. I also took from that fight that Dumbledore was winning, seen by how lightly he took the whole thing, although I kinda suspect that Voldemort was intimidated to the degree that he wasn't mixing his magic up enough, since he was really just spamming AK for the most part.

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#26 Edited by americanspeeddemon (7111 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump due to Fantastic Beast feats

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#27 Posted by DeathWingTerminatorT1000 (417 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald battled Dumbledore in his prime, who was the most powerful wizard of his age. Voldemort could not kill Dumbledore whilst Dumbledore was an old man and was protecting Harry. So Grindelwald takes this.

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#28 Posted by Klaus (2027 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost: Voldemort never really stalemated Dumbledore. It wasn't as much a fight as Dumbledore defending himself and Harry and keeping Riddle at bay. Voldemort even noted himself that one of the curses Dumbledore fired at him wasn't meant to kill and wondered why he was holding back.

Dumbledore was never worried and didn't HAVE to be saved by Faux. Dumbledore let Faux take the curse because he new the Phoenix would simply be reborn which he did straight away. If we wanna look at how skilled Albus is, just take into account the fact that he could control take control of fiend fire from another wizard, a type of magic that is so wild and uncontrollable and powerful that it can destroy Horcruxes. That alone is considered impossible to do.

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#29 Posted by bilbobaggins141 (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it possible to ask JK Rowling this question so it can be resolved, also in my opinion I think Voldemort is stronger.

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#30 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25680 posts) - - Show Bio

I always thought Grin was stronger due to his clearly better performance against Dumbledore. So I'm going with him.

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#32 Posted by deactivated-5a2b0053414c5 (8165 posts) - - Show Bio

Aside from mentions of past battles, I'll side with Voldemort for now. In terms of shown feats, Voldemort is more impressive than Grindelwald(though I love the scene where he's trying to solo the American aurors, wish the protagonist didn't stop him... would have been amazing to see him in full action). I hope we get more prequel novels/movies to see more of him, especially the fight with Dumbledoore(that's probably going to be one of the most bad-ass fights in the series)

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#33 Posted by Terminator2938 (320 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort wins in a close fight. The books do seem to make it clear that Grindelwald has always ranked second when it comes to most dangerous/feared dark wizards.

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#34 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25680 posts) - - Show Bio

I always thought Grin was stronger due to his clearly better performance against Dumbledore. So I'm going with him.

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#35 Posted by Terminator2938 (320 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Grindelwald also build his prison Nurmengard thinking it would be impossible to break into or out of. And voldemort seemed to do that pretty effortlessly.

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#36 Posted by RBT (27100 posts) - - Show Bio

Gridewald, IMO. He fought a much stronger Dumbledore in a battle which laster hours. Though he did have elder wand. Voldermort on the other hand was completely manhandled by Dumbledore.

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#37 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25680 posts) - - Show Bio

@terminator2938: This is not a dark arts magical contest. In a duel, Grindelwand was portrayed as clearly superior imo. He was legimately giving Albus the most hell of a fight, the "Battle of the Century". Voldie didn't even come close to beating him and was defeated in much, much less time.

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#38 Posted by RBT (27100 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, the Fantastic Beasts movie would be considered canon to the books right? Because Grindewald was holding off dozen of Aurors at same time, taking them down one by one. Voldermort is nowhere as capable.

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#39 Edited by Terminator2938 (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: But he was doing so with the elder wand, whilst Voldemort fought against Dumbledore and the elder wand. And you have to consider that mentally Dumbledore may not have been at 100% considering he was fighting his former best friend, and as JK Rowling's suggested perhaps even former lover.

I also feel a battle of this nature between the 2 most powerful wizards in the world would be sure to get over-hyped and exaggerated through the years.

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#40 Posted by MarioEatsSpaguetti (70 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know who would win, but in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them Grindelwald seemed pretty impressive. In one scene he lifted a 1920's car (maybe a 1925 Buick?) with HIS HAND (wandless magic) and threw it at a high speed towards Tina Goldstein.

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#41 Posted by RBT (27100 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know who would win, but in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them Grindelwald seemed pretty impressive. In one scene he lifted a 1920's car (maybe a 1925 Buick?) with HIS HAND (wandless magic) and threw it at a high speed towards Tina Goldstein.

Yep. I was kinda pissed that they were showing Graves do powerful effortless wandless magic when even top wizards in HP verse can't do it. It all made sense with final reveal.

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#42 Edited by rogueshadow (29159 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Also, the Fantastic Beasts movie would be considered canon to the books right?

Because Grindewald was holding off dozen of Aurors at same time, taking them down one by one. Voldermort is nowhere as capable.

The script is definitely canon since it's written by J.K., though I wouldn't say what we see onscreen is necessarily canon. Not sure if she's spoken about it yet.

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#43 Posted by MarioEatsSpaguetti (70 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@marioeatsspaguetti said:

I don't know who would win, but in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them Grindelwald seemed pretty impressive. In one scene he lifted a 1920's car (maybe a 1925 Buick?) with HIS HAND (wandless magic) and threw it at a high speed towards Tina Goldstein.

Yep. I was kinda pissed that they were showing Graves do powerful effortless wandless magic when even top wizards in HP verse can't do it. It all made sense with final reveal.

Haha, I was thinking "Damn, this auror is waaaaay too powerful :o".

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#44 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#45 Posted by decaf_wizard (16822 posts) - - Show Bio

Voldemort wins in a close fight. The books do seem to make it clear that Grindelwald has always ranked second when it comes to most dangerous/feared dark wizards.

No they don't. Non-British wizards still don't really know much about Voldemort and I can remember one even asking who he was. He never got big outside Britain. Even if we look at their influence on the Wizarding World, the entire world was scared of Grindelwald and IMO the books seem to be implying that he sparked WW2

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#46 Posted by js_the_beast (936 posts) - - Show Bio

Grindelwald.

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#47 Posted by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

@terminator2938 said:

Voldemort wins in a close fight. The books do seem to make it clear that Grindelwald has always ranked second when it comes to most dangerous/feared dark wizards.

No they don't. Non-British wizards still don't really know much about Voldemort and I can remember one even asking who he was. He never got big outside Britain. Even if we look at their influence on the Wizarding World, the entire world was scared of Grindelwald and IMO the books seem to be implying that he sparked WW2

When was this? Are you sure he wasn't just asking who Harry was?

JKR implied that wizarding and Muggle wars 'fuel each other', it wasn't solely due to Grindelwald, but it is significant that the year of his defeat coincided with the end of the war IIRC.

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#48 Posted by decaf_wizard (16822 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: I think it was during the Quiddich World Cup that somebody didn't know who the Death Eaters were. Im not positive though, although I am positive that it was said that Voldemort never got much influence outside Britain

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#49 Posted by AlphaQ (6104 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: I see. I'll have a look.

Looking at that chapter, the wizards at the Cup lost their heads when the Dark Mark appeared and there were lots of foreign wizards there, so maybe that's indicative of wider influence.

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#50 Posted by Redxiii18881990 (1574 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: are you thinking of krum mentioning how grindelwald never made it to Britain because of Dumbledore? Although that's in the 7th book.