VL Ichigo vs Irene

@brownzeus:

1. Ichigo would not have the same stats in the sense that he would be missing his zampakuto.

Do you have on panel feats to support your claim?

Kon as a soul was capable of performing feats impossible for a normal human.

Kindly provide the on manga feats.

I would be lying if I said Ichigo ever performed shinigami level feats in his regular body. It would also be nonsensical to expect this to be the case as whenever Ichigo had to get to action he could just turn in to a shinigami which not only was the best solution but also gave Ichigo access to his Zampakuto as well as access to Getsuga Tensho.

In short, featless.

This is personal incredulity. The soul is the same regardless of being in a physical form or not. it can exert the same amount of power, as proven by Kon

No, the personal incredulity is believing that Ichigo, while inside of his living body could exert the same amount of his shinigami powers without any supporting on panel feats.

The gap in power between Ichigo and Kon is very large. that's it, you are saying that because there is a gap that somehow Ichigo's soul will not be capable of exerting the same degree of freedom in his own body when compared to Kon. But there is nothing throughout the series that alludes to this being the case.

Do you have on panel feats to prove that?

This was not my logic, my logic was a paragraph above this one with the scans of Kon, these are just to solidify the reasoning. You writing "True, however, that logic is not enough to claim that Ichigo" is all I wanted from this, as the main argument is the Kon possessing Ichigo's body, not the tiny list I made.

Kon possessing Ichigo's body is not enough feat to assume that Ichigo while in his living body could also possess his Shinigami stats.

Ichigo's powers are not sealed, let's make a distinction here, Ichigo has never used his shinigami powers while in his human form. This does not mean his powers are sealed by his body.

Do you have any on panel proof from your assumption that Ichigo still have access in his Shinigami form while inside of his body?

And, as if I had to add in some more incredulity to what you are suggesting, are you gonna tell me that fullbringers have their powers sealed too? what about Quincy, are Quincy powers sealed too?

No since their power is different from the Shinigami.

Hmm... Irene casting the spell is not what I was referring to arguing, Irene can cast the spell. I was arguing whether or not it would work. Irene's spell turns a human into a rat. Souls are not made of matter, you are telling me Irene can turn a spirit into a rat but there is a distinguishable difference between a human being and a ghost/shinigami.

No, instead of the soul, I was referring to the shinigami's Reishi made body being transform into mouse. Irene have feats of giving life into objects and giving them living bodies.

feats of this spell working on a ghost/soul?

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.

I still don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers wouldn't work. Reiatsu is the same as long as we are talking about the same soul throughout.

While you don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers would not work, I don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers will work. Despite the fact that Reiatsu is the same, we need proofs that he could use his shinigami powers while still in his living body.

You got this backwards, maybe I did not articulate myself well enough, what I meant is that we have no grounds to believe this spell would work given the feat Irene performed is being targeted at a very different being.

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.(Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea)

@requiemcross:

1. Ichigo would not have the same stats in the sense that he would be missing his zampakuto.

Do you have on panel feats to support your claim?

Not feats, but statements.

Technically speaking I would be wrong in saying Ichigo cannot use his Zampakuto, as by all my knowledge in the series there is no restriction in place. When Urahara was comparing how Quincies and Shinigami fight it has been stated that the Azauchi is materialized from a Shinigami's own power. There has never been a specific rule in place that restricts a shinigami to materialize a Zampakuto while in a gigai or in this case Ichigo's own body.

You can ask for a feat of this happening. but there is none, this is lore and canon stuff, something that can be explained but not shown.

You can remain adamant about asking for feats. I will tell you straight away that there are not many cases of panel feats for this topic we are discussing. I am just arguing for what is possible from a lore-based perspective. This I understand is not good enough for you.

Kindly provide the on manga feats.

In this one I misphrased, I mean that Kon as a mod soul was capable of performing feats impossible for a normal human when he was in control of a human body.

Anyway's here's the feats and a few more.

I would be lying if I said Ichigo ever performed shinigami level feats in his regular body. It would also be nonsensical to expect this to be the case as whenever Ichigo had to get to action he could just turn in to a shinigami which not only was the best solution but also gave Ichigo access to his Zampakuto as well as access to Getsuga Tensho.

In short, featless.

You are right in saying that Ichigo has no feats of using his shinigami powers in human form. I have agreed with you that there is no direct feat of Ichigo using his shinigami powers while in human form.

No, the personal incredulity is believing that Ichigo, while inside of his living body could exert the same amount of his shinigami powers without any supporting on panel feats.

There are no on panel feats of Ichigo exerting any shinigami level feat, this is the bar you set for yourself and I cannot match it.

But does this mean Ichigo cannot use his soul's powers to fight in a physical body? No. Kon is living proof of this.

You are not wrong in asking for feats. I can't deliver what you are asking of me in this case, but I have set a baseline for what is possible.

Do you have on panel feats to prove that?

I have the feats I have given.

Kon possessing Ichigo's body is not enough feat to assume that Ichigo while in his living body could also possess his Shinigami stats.

Every person has their own line for standards. I can understand this reasoning you have.

Do you have any on panel proof from your assumption that Ichigo still have access in his Shinigami form while inside of his body?

As far as I am aware the Shinigami form is always active, just not visible. it is not like Ichigo has a regular soul and it transforms into shinigami mode when it leaves his body. this is an observable fact as a normal soul that gets knocked out of their body has the chain link and ghost form, while Ichigo's shinigami clothes and sword are there from the moment the separation of soul and body begin.

You could argue that Ichigo's shinigami form is inactive while staying in the Physical body of Ichigo, and it literally transforms as it comes out to an unperceivable degree. This is a reach but absolutely not an impossibility.

No since their power is different from the Shinigami.

Except the basics. Souls have Reiryoku and emit reiatsu, this is a universal fact of the series. Quincy powers and Fullbringer powers are not exactly normal among humans either, these are exceptional cases where hollows have affected human lives or are distant descendants of Yhwach. Als this is probably not good enough for you either.

I leave it to the readers to decide on this topic.

No, instead of the soul, I was referring to the shinigami's Reishi made body being transform into mouse. Irene have feats of giving life into objects and giving them living bodies.

How can you even make the connection? These two feats have absolutely nothing to do with each other, as far as I understand the case of swords are personality enchantments and they were given a physical body through magic. This technically can count as sentience, by definition alive, but this does not mean they have a spiritual soul. Same as how Wendy now has an Irene as a headmate. Irene is not alive, but there was a personality enchanted into Wendy that is a replica of Irene, with the same knowledge, personality, and memories.

Reishi is not matter at all Souls in Bleach have spiritual "bodies", but these are astronomically different from any physical matter entirely.

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.

Again nowhere near the same thing, this is a reach among reach. forget interacting with souls at a magical level, as far as I am aware there is nothing that I am aware of in Fairy Tail even close to resembling a soul. The closest we had was Mavis but the wiki details this to be an astral projection which again is nowhere near the same thing.

I still don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers wouldn't work. Reiatsu is the same as long as we are talking about the same soul throughout.

While you don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers would not work, I don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers will work. Despite the fact that Reiatsu is the same, we need proofs that he could use his shinigami powers while still in his living body.

Ther is proof of Ichigo being able to use his soul's power as an amplifier through the situation with Kon. VL Ichigo would be put in a very similar situation to Kon, hence It is a fact that VL Ichigo would have his stats amplified by the strength of his soul. at worst we can just lowball VL Ichigo to Kon levels of stats, but it still is something, here there is Nothing.

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.(Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea)

thanks for the source, I had a re-read, You've repeated this line in a different way 3 times now, I take it my first 2 replies to these points are enough.

@brownzeus said:

@requiemcross:

1. Ichigo would not have the same stats in the sense that he would be missing his zampakuto.

Do you have on panel feats to support your claim?

Not feats, but statements.

Technically speaking I would be wrong in saying Ichigo cannot use his Zampakuto, as by all my knowledge in the series there is no restriction in place. When Urahara was comparing how Quincies and Shinigami fight it has been stated that the Azauchi is materialized from a Shinigami's own power. There has never been a specific rule in place that restricts a shinigami to materialize a Zampakuto while in a gigai or in this case Ichigo's own body.

You can ask for a feat of this happening. but there is none, this is lore and canon stuff, something that can be explained but not shown.

You can remain adamant about asking for feats. I will tell you straight away that there are not many cases of panel feats for this topic we are discussing. I am just arguing for what is possible from a lore-based perspective. This I understand is not good enough for you.

Kindly provide the on manga feats.

In this one I misphrased, I mean that Kon as a mod soul was capable of performing feats impossible for a normal human when he was in control of a human body.

Anyway's here's the feats and a few more.

I would be lying if I said Ichigo ever performed shinigami level feats in his regular body. It would also be nonsensical to expect this to be the case as whenever Ichigo had to get to action he could just turn in to a shinigami which not only was the best solution but also gave Ichigo access to his Zampakuto as well as access to Getsuga Tensho.

In short, featless.

You are right in saying that Ichigo has no feats of using his shinigami powers in human form. I have agreed with you that there is no direct feat of Ichigo using his shinigami powers while in human form.

No, the personal incredulity is believing that Ichigo, while inside of his living body could exert the same amount of his shinigami powers without any supporting on panel feats.

There are no on panel feats of Ichigo exerting any shinigami level feat, this is the bar you set for yourself and I cannot match it.

But does this mean Ichigo cannot use his soul's powers to fight in a physical body? No. Kon is living proof of this.

You are not wrong in asking for feats. I can't deliver what you are asking of me in this case, but I have set a baseline for what is possible.

Do you have on panel feats to prove that?

I have the feats I have given.

Kon possessing Ichigo's body is not enough feat to assume that Ichigo while in his living body could also possess his Shinigami stats.

Every person has their own line for standards. I can understand this reasoning you have.

Do you have any on panel proof from your assumption that Ichigo still have access in his Shinigami form while inside of his body?

As far as I am aware the Shinigami form is always active, just not visible. it is not like Ichigo has a regular soul and it transforms into shinigami mode when it leaves his body. this is an observable fact as a normal soul that gets knocked out of their body has the chain link and ghost form, while Ichigo's shinigami clothes and sword are there from the moment the separation of soul and body begin.

You could argue that Ichigo's shinigami form is inactive while staying in the Physical body of Ichigo, and it literally transforms as it comes out to an unperceivable degree. This is a reach but absolutely not an impossibility.

No since their power is different from the Shinigami.

Except the basics. Souls have Reiryoku and emit reiatsu, this is a universal fact of the series. Quincy powers and Fullbringer powers are not exactly normal among humans either, these are exceptional cases where hollows have affected human lives or are distant descendants of Yhwach. Als this is probably not good enough for you either.

I leave it to the readers to decide on this topic.

No, instead of the soul, I was referring to the shinigami's Reishi made body being transform into mouse. Irene have feats of giving life into objects and giving them living bodies.

How can you even make the connection? These two feats have absolutely nothing to do with each other, as far as I understand the case of swords are personality enchantments and they were given a physical body through magic. This technically can count as sentience, by definition alive, but this does not mean they have a spiritual soul. Same as how Wendy now has an Irene as a headmate. Irene is not alive, but there was a personality enchanted into Wendy that is a replica of Irene, with the same knowledge, personality, and memories.

Reishi is not matter at all Souls in Bleach have spiritual "bodies", but these are astronomically different from any physical matter entirely.

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.

Again nowhere near the same thing, this is a reach among reach. forget interacting with souls at a magical level, as far as I am aware there is nothing that I am aware of in Fairy Tail even close to resembling a soul. The closest we had was Mavis but the wiki details this to be an astral projection which again is nowhere near the same thing.

I still don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers wouldn't work. Reiatsu is the same as long as we are talking about the same soul throughout.

While you don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers would not work, I don't see why Ichigo's shinigami powers will work. Despite the fact that Reiatsu is the same, we need proofs that he could use his shinigami powers while still in his living body.

Ther is proof of Ichigo being able to use his soul's power as an amplifier through the situation with Kon. VL Ichigo would be put in a very similar situation to Kon, hence It is a fact that VL Ichigo would have his stats amplified by the strength of his soul. at worst we can just lowball VL Ichigo to Kon levels of stats, but it still is something, here there is Nothing.

Fairy tail ch 492. Irene could give life and living body to non living objects like sword.(Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea)

thanks for the source, I had a re-read, You've repeated this line in a different way 3 times now, I take it my first 2 replies to these points are enough.

Lol. If you have no feats, then simply say that Ichigo have no feats. No need for paragraph long reaching statements. You cannot magically assume that Ichigo could access his soul reaper powers while still inside of his living body because Kon could do feats that Ichigo normally cannot do. Kon's mod soul effect to Ichigo's body is different to the effect of Ichigo's soul to his own body. Do not add powers or power items that a character has never used.

And about Irene's feats, those two I presented to you is part of her Enchantment magic. Reishi have nothing to do with her giving Ichigo a living body of mouse.

If Irene stepped into Bleach, she would be god tier

She wouldn't even get past the SS Arc before Yamamoto & Aizen claps her cheeks and this is where I'm actually being serious in a FT thread.

Irene would in fact be a god tier in Bleach second to SK Yhwach.

Disagree with irene being god tier in bleach. She's solid country level(in dragon form, little lower in base). But she would indeed be among the schutzstaffel rank who are basically like the strongest of the quincies and are the closest to the top tiers of the verse.

Lol, Irene is nowhere near a god tier, let alone second to Yhwach of all people.

@lichvanastrea: do you have receipts for that?

She wouldn't even make it to Yhwach's elite. LMAO although I could see her being a Gotei 13 captain along with sui feng.

My boi Ichigo one shots everyone in The verse except Aldoron and giant gajeel

@asurakj: and brandish, and everyone that scales above her(august, irene, acnologia, zeref, DGs) 😎

Ichigo wins.

Irene gets a pet dog.

@requiemcross

And about Irene's feats, those two I presented to you is part of her Enchantment magic. Reishi have nothing to do with her giving Ichigo a living body of mouse.

Except Irene has never enchanted a soul. Has she? Feats, please.

@kasya_carey

If Irene stepped into Bleach, she would be god tier

Reasoning?

@el_directo_

She's solid country level(in dragon form, little lower in base). But she would indeed be among the schutzstaffel rank who are basically like the strongest of the quincies and are the closest to the top tiers of the verse.

Irene is not, nowhere even near "solid" country level. She has displayed 2 magics of great scale; Universe One, which is greatly above country and Deus Sema which is the Meteor. Universe One is the greatest feat, but this spell is not combat applicable. Deus Sema in its portrayal was just around large building-sized, which either means it was going very fast or Mishima misportrayed the size and it was bigger. regardless of whichever the case it, This meteor highballs at multi-Island.

When we bring up the Meteor Irene's physicals become a joke. The best that can be done is scaling her durability to that of the Meteor as Erza used the same sword to then cut Irene.

Without the Meteor Irene's stats are high/above Espada. When the Meteor spikes her DC at most to Multi Island, which is her last resource as well as the least likely move for her to make, the literally second-to-last spell she did after enchanting her personality into Wendy.

The only Schutzstaffel that can be considered a match for Irene is Askin Nakk Le Vaar as he had the weakest physicals. but even then he has hax that would drop Irene in a second if he ever gets to it.

@brownzeus: Oh yeah so u ignore the fact that brandish can grow to the size of a small country, and she herself blatantly admitted that august and Irene are faaar above her in power, so wouldn't they(august & irene) scale above small country level from that? Besides, there's a lot of wrong with the rest of what u said about the meteor and Irene's feat but that's another can of worms I don't want to touch.

How could you enchant humans and not be able to enchant souls? Oh I forgot, humans in FT don't have souls lmfao

Irene would be lucky to even make it past Quilge

The only worms you will find in my can are the rotten, dead worms that I stole from the FT debater community.

Oh yeah so u ignore the fact that brandish can grow to the size of a small country

COUNTRY!? No!

Brandish's magic is impressive. but nowhere near country. barely small island level.

The Island has a village and the ships that dock in it, these are big ships but are also clearly visible. How you scale this place to Island boggles the mind.
Moreover, this is not a combat feat, Brandish shrunk an Island that's it, deadly against Devil Fruit users but nothing that translates into island level combat prospects. This is like arguing that Irene Is a large country-level fighter because she cast Universe One, which again is not a combat feat, and really not applicable unless the battle rules state a battle perimeter in which case both brandish and Irene could technically BFR.

I understand why you don't want to argue with me on this. I see you are already active enough in other threads, I wanna run away from this thread myself but I am already too invested.

I understand why you don't want to argue with me on this. I see you are already active enough in other threads, I wanna run away from this thread myself but I am already too invested in this,

I'd be so happy if people just let this thread sink to the bottom of the abyss.

Edit:

I went Around looking for Brandish's biggest state, I found this in chap 501:

In this image, Brandish looks absolutely MASSIVE! Brandish was bigger than mountains. But even if this is the case her size is still not country though. Moreover turns out this was a superimposed perspective:

You'd expect that with the size Brandish had in the previous scan she would have destroyed the buildings she fell off, but it turns out once she was in the ground her size was much smaller than what was suggested.

@brownzeus: wait don't tell me u didn't know that brandish casually increased the size of gajeel(in the latest chapter) to almost the size of aldoron(a small country size dragon)? Brandish can grow to the size of a small country if she wants. Its how she got her epithet "country destroyer".

Read the last 2 chapters of ft hyq. I wasn't even talking about this island level feat of hers.

@el_directo_: Country? No. Aldoron is bigger than mountains and he does have villages over his hands. But he would be still around multi island at most in terms of size.

@brownzeus: Aldoron is as big as a small country, even if u want to downplay his size, he's bare minimum large island+ size. He has 5 MASSIVE cities on the upper half of his body alone as well as several couple of MOUNTAIN RANGES which look like body pimples on him, where did u get village from?

I'm not really going back to the aldoron size argument again, its tiring. I'll just link u some threads on this site where I've proven his size multiple times in the past.

I'll do that later, kinda busy now.

I don't want to burden you with that, I really don't want to keep going (I will if I keep getting replies). Brandish could have made Gajeel planetary in size that still would not matter, this is a FT100 Year Quest feat. You are retroactively applying this feat to Brandish, and using it as a baseline to amp up Irene through Brandish's statements in the Alvarez invasion arc.
If you want to maintain this conversation then that is fine by me too.

@brownzeus:

Except Irene has never enchanted a soul. Has she? Feats, please.

Hisui have a soul and Irene's enchantment magic work.

Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea are both non living sword, Irene's enchantment give both of them life and body.

With those two feats, why won't it work to Ichigo? What's stopping her from giving his soul a new living mouse body?

@requiemcross:

Your post:

Except Irene has never enchanted a soul. Has she? Feats, please.

Hisui have a soul and Irene's enchantment magic work.

Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea are both non living sword, Irene's enchantment give both of them life and body.

With those two feats, why won't it work to Ichigo? What's stopping her from giving his soul a new living mouse body?

Hisui have a soul and Irene's enchantment magic work.

The difference being that Hisui has a Physical body, made from matter! Shinigami do not have a Physical body unless they are in a gigai while strolling around in the human world. Irene cast her magic to Hisui's body which a shinigami does not have (There is a clear distinction between a physical body and a spiritual body) Hence there is no correlation to be made between Hisui and VL Ichigo regarding this feat.

Juliet Sun and Heine Lunasea are both non living sword, Irene's enchantment give both of them life and body.

Just because they are "alive" does not mean they have a soul.

A good comparison is Irene herself in the new FT manga. I do not need to argue that Irene is very dead, Irene is seen in Fairy Tail's last arc in which she made her first appearance as well as death. Yet she's still seen present in Fairy Tail 100 Year Quest's later episodes inside of Wendy's mind as a recently active sentient being.

I would argue this is the case with both Swords, they are not exactly "alive", Irene just gave them a personality and a body to be in. which is very different from VL Ichigo's situation.

Irene enchanting the swords and giving them bodies for both Juliet and Heine is impressive, but not related at all with the situation VL Ichigo is being put in..

@brownzeus:

1. The difference being that Hisui has a Physical body, made from matter! Shinigami do not have a Physical body unless they are in a gigai while strolling around in the human world. Irene cast her magic to Hisui's body which a shinigami does not have (There is a clear distinction between a physical body and a physical body) Hence there is no correlation to be made between Hisui and VL Ichigo regarding this feat.

They both have souls, VL Ichigo's body have nothing to do with Irene's Enchantment magic providing a living body of mouse for Ichigo.

2. Just because they are "alive" does not mean they have a soul.

What does it have to do with Irene unable to give Ichigo with living body?

3. A good comparison is Irene herself in the new FT manga. I do not need to argue that Irene is very dead, Irene is seen in Fairy Tail's last arc in which she made her first appearance as well as death. Yet she's still seen present in Fairy Tail 100 Year Quest's later episodes inside of Wendy's mind as a recently active sentient being.

So? what does this stalling statement have to do with Ichigo resisting the living body provided by Irene?

4. I would argue this is the case with both Swords, they are not exactly "alive", Irene just gave them a personality and a body to be in. which is very different from VL Ichigo's situation.

Irene could give a living body to both living and non living beings. So what's stopping her from giving Ichigo a living body of mouse?

5. Irene enchanting the swords and giving them bodies for both Juliet and Heine is impressive, but not related at all with the situation VL Ichigo is being put in..

And what's your reasoning for it not to work? Irene's feats of enchantment magic both have a feats of providing a new living body to both living and non living.

@requiemcross:

They both have souls, VL Ichigo's body have nothing to do with Irene's Enchantment magic providing a living body of mouse for Ichigo.

Ichigo's body does have everything to do in this situation, Ichigo is a soul, a non-material thing, while Hisui is a physical human being. I do not see how this is so hard to understand, the spells Irene used were applied on to a physical body, how can transforming a physical body into a smaller physical body translate into the same spell transforming a non-material existence into a physical body? that would be an entirely different application of the spell.

What does it have to do with Irene unable to give Ichigo with living body?

Them not having a soul takes away from the possibility of Irene being able to handle souls, which in this case would help a lot to her case.

So? what does this stalling statement have to do with Ichigo resisting the living body provided by Irene?

Ichigo resisting the living body provided by Irene? Irene has feats of enchanting personalities into bodies yes, but she has never manipulated a soul into a body which is what should have to happen here.

Ichigo does not need to resist anything unless you or anybody can provide feats for Irene manipulating and encasing souls into physical bodies.

Irene enchanting her own personality into wendy could be considered the same thing, I just tried to separate this feat from possible soul manipulation arguments.

Irene could give a living body to both living and non living beings. So what's stopping her from giving Ichigo a living body of mouse?

Irene either gave both swords a personality and then enchanted the swords into bodies or turned the swords into bodies and then enchanted personalities into them, she has no feats (that I can recall) of her creating a body from nothing (as she made the bodies out of swords) and encasing a soul into said body. There is a clear difference.

And what's your reasoning for it not to work? Irene's feats of enchantment magic both have a feats of providing a new living body to both living and non living.

I already argued why Irene giving a new living body to Hiei (Hiei being turned from a human into a mouse) does not translate to Irene being able to do the same thing to Ichigo, as the missing link here is a physical body for Irene to turn Ichigo into a mouse, because as I've repeatedly said, Irene has no feats regarding souls. The best Irene can come to interacting with souls in this scenario is directly attacking Ichigo as shinigami while spiritual has gained a physical presence in spite of their immaterial bodies.

The swords were turned in to "living things" from already existing swords, these swords were then granted a personality, Ichigo is an already existing living thing with no physical body.

at best Irene can pick a piece of something, enchant a personality that resembles Ichigo's personality and then turning that into a mouse, that is, by feats, what she has shown herself being capable of achieving.

Wait didn't Irene teleport Erza's swords into her hand? Why can't she do it in with Ichigo?

Can't even believe you had to ask this question:

@brownzeus: Okay, I can't find any feats to suggest that Irene could do that to a soul. I concede for now.

Hmm... Thinking back on it, I read FT religiously up until the tournament arc. That I can recall there are no feats on souls from anyone period.

I've read more from the series as I debated in FT threads, and again I have yet to recall any soul feats by anyone ever. It would definitely be a new thing for the verse to deal with such.

What makes me nervous is the case with the White Witch. Logic tells me the White witch somehow enchanted her body & mind into the girl's body for reasons I have not made myself aware of. Mishima can pull a plot twist here and make it so that the White Witch's magic is related to "soul". if that is the case then that is soul magic which would bring new light to the verse. Then if Wendy manages to separate the White Witch it would also be a feat for Irene's spell as the spell to be used originates from Irene's memories which would improve her case in the topic both of us have been discussing so far. That is a turn in the right direction for the series that I fear turns into reality.

There may be soul magic feats for the series that I've missed as I have not read every chapter there is. But as I am aware this is not the case.

hehe

@brownzeus: wait, I haven't been following u guys debate. What is this about no soul magic in the verse?

Irene swapped her soul into Wendy's body, Wendy did the same thing to her and got her body back.

One of the tartaros demons can manipulate souls. He almost tried to yank out natsu and co. souls from their bodies, then there's the fact that he attained hades soul and used it to fight against natsu.

Even in the recent hyq, there's some sort of soul separation being done when irene separated touka from the white witch.

@el_directo_:

One of the tartaros demons can manipulate souls. He almost tried to yank out natsu and co. souls from their bodies, then there's the fact that he attained hades soul and used it to fight against natsu.

There we go. This would apply to what I wrote before:

Hmm... Thinking back on it, I read FT religiously up until the tournament arc. That I can recall there are no feats on souls from anyone period.

There may be soul magic feats for the series that I've missed as I have not read every chapter there is. But as I am aware this is not the case.

Nice to know that there are. I have no idea what the feats look like and I will not bother to contest you on these as I do not think you are a liar. Moreover, these feats are irrelevant to this topic (thanks for addressing my concerns though). Should they become relevant in the future I will look into them.

As for Irene:

Irene swapped her soul into Wendy's body, Wendy did the same thing to her and got her body back.

I will have to disagree with this interpretation:

I get what you are thinking, It was a soul swap because thereafter wendy possessed Irene's body! What if anything could that be if not souls? Well...

It is not precisely explained how Wendy accomplished this, but it is explicitly stated by Irene(in wendy's body) that what had happened here was a personality enchantment. At best this is a shift in consciousness.

Even in the recent hyq, there's some sort of soul separation being done when irene separated touka from the white witch.

We know that the White Witch is inside of Touka's body and that they share the same body. but we are unaware of how this spell works. We know that Irene can enchant personalities, so what indicates that the White Witch is using soul magic? The argument cannot be made, at least not yet without it being heavily scrutinized as this cannot be established as fact, we do not know for sure what the White Witch used.

I still don't see how this would last long if ichigo blitzes her from the moment the battle starts. Irene has no reaction speed feats that suggest she can evade a blitz from ichigo

@brownzeus: Personality enchants are just soul transfers. That's how she's able to continue residing in wendy's body even after her body died. She enchanted her soul (personality) onto wendy.

This is one hell of a headcanon. This has NEVER been stated. And you are not the first one to bring it up. I feel like I am repeating myself here.

Personalities can be a sign of sentience, in some meanings of the word you can even program personality into A.I.
How people equate this to soul transfer boggles my mind.
It's not like I can not be wrong. But at least bring references and scans to show me why and how I am wrong.

I see stuff I do not agree with within the Vine regularly, and I do not mind. everyone has their opinions. But if you are gonna reply to me, and on top make me repost stuff then I will have to hold you to a higher standard than just bare-bone statements.

@brownzeus: top notch logic

@brownzeus: She makes that statement because she is just a soul and doesn't have an actual body. If was just her making a copy of her personality, then the first time she used it against wendy would have been pointless because her soul would still be in her own body. And we know from Natsu's experience in beta heaven as well as his thought projection fight that consciousness in the verse is tied to one's soul and aren't separate thing (which is why Natsu's body didn't start moving when after his soul left it.) You can't just transfer your consciousness without transferring the soul. Also Irene taught Wendy a separation enchantment and she used it on the white witch. The white witch was a ghostlike entity that possesed Touka in order to carry out her actions. Despite the fact that the white witch had no physical body of her own (the form she took was just a transformation), the separation enchant was able to remove her from touka as well as give her a physical form (natsu was able to carry her). So the enchants she has can definitely work on souls.

Also the entire last part of your post makes you sound like a prick.

VL With no-diff

The notion of Irene's meteor being rel or sub rel in terms of speed is absolutely ridiculous. I mean the simple fact that the regular civilians were able to react in terror and comment on the meteor's descent should already debunk the notion of the meteor being anywhere close to that level of speed.

Vasto lord stomps.

LMAO at Irene being a god-tier in Bleach let alone being second to Yhwach.

Irene. God teir in Bleach? The hell is wrong with CV.

Stalemate

Ichigo.

Irene summons a meteor that is slightly larger than a hill and one shots.

Iren scales now low continent lvl (>everything showed In Bleach)

Even tho I hate the scaling wanking in Bleach. I have to say Ichigo will win this w/o too much effort. Irene is a great support and controller. Not a combatant.

And except for her mini-size-slow meteor, she ain't have anything impressive in terms of attack potency.

Probably Lanza can turn that meteor to dust and Ichigo hold that Lanza attack in his palm w/o giving any f#ck.

Speed also going to Ichigo. Durability too. Actually, any physical attribute goes to him. Also AP too.

The only thing that Irene has over him is intelligence (cuz in Hollow form he ain't that intellect) and hax. Like some city-level BFR and minor magic stuff.

Ichigo got this.