Virgo Shaka(Saint Seiya) VS Whis (DB)

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Eredin12

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#151  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@varricpatermann: MUI Goku can replicate that really, well not create but destroy yes, he is multi universal just like Shaka

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#153 Eredin12  Online

@drunkhc:

Those who have awakened to the Eighth Consciousness are able to clearly see, and exist in, multiple dimensionsIn the last special chapter of Lost Canvas it is stated that beings that have an eighth sense can exist in multiple dimensions

The sixth sense already grants super powers and mental powers

How does that help in combat here? And Whis has super powers as well

Shaka (eighth sense) crossed dimension and time-space

Whis or people lot bellow him can do that as well, how do you think they travel to other universes, Kaioshin realms and likes

Normal gold saints dominate only the seventh sense, they are described as capable of destroying the universe

The good thing is people that can destroy the universe are fodders to people that are fodders to people that are fodders to Whis

Anyway, these Saint seiya threads against these weak verses are ridiculous ... Shaka hard stomp

Nothing you showd above allows him to beat Whis really

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VarricPatermann

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#154  Edited By VarricPatermann

@deepfuqink said:
@varricpatermann said:

@eredin12 his battle against Virgo Shijima, where countless universes are getting created and destroyed.

Spamming universal attack att each other is still universal tho.

After that logic Beerus and Goku nearly destroying the macrocosm would be still universal.

even wiki vs has that feat on universal

And we know that VsBattle, OBD and other doesn´t have much credibility.

nothing about that feat indicates above universal

By spamming a lot of universes that is above universal.

@eredin12 said:

@varricpatermann: MUI Goku can replicate that really, well not create but destroy yes, he is multi universal just like Shaka

Well, i don´t know how much more powerful MUI Goku is in comparison to SSJB Goku, but there is a difference between a universe of the 3-4 size and thousends of universes or more. But yes, both by tiering are around multi-universal.

@gelato_exotic said:

Don't care about this fight, but you guys seriously need to stop taking Shaka and Shijima's feat in Next Dimension Ch. 58 completely out of context in how it happened and trying to imply they're multiversal which is lol.

Shaka is Universal when using Agyo, anything higher is questionable.

No one argues for multiversal, which needs "infinite" of universes. By feats Shaka is multi-universal since we don´t know exactly his numbers of universes + depended on the translation those aren´t infinite or countless.

@eredin12 said:

@drunkhc:

The sixth sense already grants super powers and mental powers

How does that help in combat here? And Whis has super powers as well

What he probably means is that the sixth sense is like the Ultra Instinct. At the first point it makes you unbound by your other senses. You react instinctive, even if you are sleeping or into a coma. You can react to the attacks of the enemies without sense. It act with precognition and intuition.

Shaka (eighth sense) crossed dimension and time-space

Whis or people lot bellow him can do that as well, how do you think they travel to other universes, Kaioshin realms and likes

The eight sense makes you unbound by the underworld, you have total control over your soul and can fight and exist as astral projection. You also have a low-godly regeneration level, because body and soul can regenerate from that point you have the eight sense.

Normal gold saints dominate only the seventh sense, they are described as capable of destroying the universe

The good thing is people that can destroy the universe are fodders to people that are fodders to people that are fodders to Whis

That might be true, but even with the different Gold Saints there are other Gold Saints which are superior. Shaka is one of them. Regulus is one of them. Aiolos is one of them.

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#155  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@varricpatermann:

Well, i don´t know how much more powerful MUI Goku is in comparison to SSJB Goku,

but there is a difference between a universe of the 3-4 size and thousends of universes or more. But yes, both by tiering are around multi-universal.

The thing is DB universe is much bigger than the normal one, one planet( Heaven) in the afterlife is already as big as the normal universe, so the afterlife is far larger than the mortal universe, and besides the afterlife, you have several other realms as large as the universe or more( like Kaioshin realm, hell, demon realm) and SSB Goku( who is already 50 times stronger than SSG who can destroy entire DB universe) when amped 20 times was crub stomped by just glare from Jiren( suppressed one)

No Caption Provided

While MUI Goku wrecked full power Jiren without him even landing hit

Loading Video...

Jiren is also a guy that shaked infinite dimension by walking while suppressed, and Beerus vs Champa fight would destroy both six and seven universes as a side effect and Whis is much stronger than all GoD combined, so yeah, i dont think he will have trouble replicating feat above and supressing it

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#156  Edited By gelato_exotic

@varricpatermann:

Gonna void saying anything about Whis vs. Shaka really since these DB and SS threads get unnecessarily toxic haha, and would rather not get involved with that, but I disagree with multiversal (from what I'm aware of finite multiversal is 100o+ universes rather than infinite which is multiversal+ but everyone uses different tiering systems, could just be a misunderstanding) or even multi universal Shaka tbh (at least based on chapter 58's feat alone), I think he's just Universal with Agyo (although that guy bringing up what VS wiki and OBD thinks was pretty dumb, agree with them having shit credibility).

Shaka and Shijima's feat happened due to Shijima first attacking Shaka with Ungyo, which is the darkness that symbolizes the death of the Universe, and Shaka countering it with Agyo, which represents the Birth of the Universe.

With them both destroying/creating countless Universes, what's going on is that Shaka creates a Universe, and Shijima destroys it with Ungyo, and they spam these and this cycle is repeated of a universe being created and destroyed, hence how this is acheived.

No Caption Provided

This is affirming the whole clash between the two opposites like I mentioned above (light that symbolizes creation of the Universe vs one that destroys it, and the two clashing=A universe constantly being created and destroyed which is still just a Universal feat)

If you wanted to be technical, the feat itself was an illusionary/mental thing which never happened (and as anyone who's read SS would know, illusionism is Shaka's forte), considering how the temple they were fighting in stayed intact for the entire time.

No Caption Provided

Although I'm not saying this means it isn't a feat for Shaka and Shijima, personally I think Agyo and Ungyo are clearly being showcased to be Universal level attacks, and one's they can use very easily which is a nice stamina feat too. Although I don't think neither of them can replicate the Cosmo capable of destroying/creating countless Universes on their own. You could even chalk it up to how Cosmo attacks become exponentially more powerful when they clash, like the Athena exclamation, since hardly any other Gold Saints really have any consistent showings above Universal beside god tiers such as Regulus and probably Sagitarrius Aiolos too since Shaka admitted he's a lot stronger.

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#157 Eredin12  Online

@varricpatermann:

What he probably means is that the sixth sense is like the Ultra Instinct. At the first point it makes you unbound by your other senses. You react instinctive, even if you are sleeping or into a coma. You can react to the attacks of the enemies without sense. It act with precognition and intuition.

Well Whis has fully mastered MUI so that is no help aginst him

The eight sense makes you unbound by the underworld, you have total control over your soul and can fight and exist as astral projection. You also have a low-godly regeneration level, because body and soul can regenerate from that point you have the eight sense.

Can they come back from Hakai? Also Whis only needs to knock them out or seal them

That might be true, but even with the different Gold Saints there are other Gold Saints which are superior. Shaka is one of them. Regulus is one of them. Aiolos is one of them.

Alright

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#158  Edited By VarricPatermann

@

@gelato_exotic said:

@varricpatermann:

Gonna void saying anything about Whis vs. Shaka really since these DB and SS threads get unnecessarily toxic haha

True. And it isn´t my intention to make those debates toxic, but a few people often try to provoke and wank or downplay other verses. That counts for SS and of course that counts for Dragonball. What counts more is the context in the debates and based on that SS and DB are entirely different. While DB is more based on feats, SS is more based on statements. Doesn´t mean they don´t have feats, but some feats make only sense if they are better explained.

and would rather not get involved with that, but I disagree with multiversal (from what I'm aware of finite multiversal is 100o+ universes rather than infinite which is multiversal+ but everyone uses different tiering systems, could just be a misunderstanding) or even multi universal Shaka tbh (at least based on chapter 58's feat alone)

Well, i didn´t say Shaka is multiversal. There are valid terms that can be solid and accepted for the infinite term, but based on Shaka´s statement it is to vague. Like you sad it also depends on the tiering system. I rather to avoid the multiversal term if we talking about a finite amount of universes. The tiering system which you mean is mostly based on VsBattle from what i remember.

I think he's just Universal with Agyo (although that guy bringing up what VS wiki and OBD thinks was pretty dumb, agree with them having shit credibility).

Well, VsBattle and OBD argue for SS that they have superior speed, which is a point where most of you guys disagree, or not? What i mean is, you shouldn´t give those wikis all the credibility. The tiering system isn´t perfect, the only good point where i can give the wiki one + is based on the profiles and explanations.

Shaka and Shijima's feat happened due to Shijima first attacking Shaka with Ungyo, which is the darkness that symbolizes the death of the Universe, and Shaka countering it with Agyo, which represents the Birth of the Universe.

Exactly. Those are attacks which are charged against each other on a mental plane.

With them both destroying/creating countless Universes, what's going on is that Shaka creates a Universe, and Shijima destroys it with Ungyo, and they spam these and this cycle is repeated of a universe being created and destroyed, hence how this is acheived.

No Caption Provided

That is correct, yes.

This is affirming the whole clash between the two opposites like I mentioned above (light that symbolizes creation of the Universe vs one that destroys it, and the two clashing=A universe constantly being created and destroyed which is still just a Universal feat)

Well, it not only symbolizes the creation or destruction of a universe. It is a entire chain between creation and destruction which happend on another plane then Seiya and the others exist. You see them sitting just around, while within their sense the battle starts.

If you wanted to be technical, the feat itself was an illusionary/mental thing which never happened (and as anyone who's read SS would know, illusionism is Shaka's forte), considering how the temple they were fighting in stayed intact for the entire time.

That would be only useful against people with lower senses then Shaka, but he can´t put Shijima in one of his illusions due the 7th sense. Those are mostly transcendal powers like Shijima´s 4 gates of Buddha, or Tenbu Horin from both of them. Both abilities are looking like illusions if you see the scans, but in fact they can harm you to an extreme degree. The clash between Shaka and Shijima happend, but not in the same league where Seiya and the others exist. Seiya can barley notice it.

No Caption Provided

Although I'm not saying this means it isn't a feat for Shaka and Shijima, personally I think Agyo and Ungyo are clearly being showcased to be Universal level attacks, and one's they can use very easily which is a nice stamina feat too.

Well, stamina shouldn´t be a problem in SS thanks to reactive powerlevel (Which also have people like Goku too) plus miracles. You can say it is a chain reaction of universal creation and destruction, where one side try to stop the destruction and one s ide try do overcome that stop.

Although I don't think neither of them can replicate the Cosmo capable of destroying/creating countless Universes on their own. You could even chalk it up to how Cosmo attacks become exponentially more powerful when they clash, like the Athena exclamation, since hardly any other Gold Saints really have any consistent showings above Universal beside god tiers such as Regulus and probably Sagitarrius Aiolos too since Shaka admitted he's a lot stronger.

Oh, don´t get me wrong. I never said they can destroy the universe with it, since SS works different. You already explained it how it works, it is similar to Athena´s exclamation that works on a single point. Most attacks are focused on a single point and still have the capacity to destroy a universe. If Shaka hit someone with his attacks, he probably wouldn´t destroy the universe, but someone who has universal durability, because all that power is focused on one point.

Dragonball at this point shows the power, they don´t focus most attacks on a single point or at least not that good. They can fire attacks which destroy islands but in fact they have the potency do damage people with planetary durability (Early Dragonball) So they have some kind of the same type, but not on that scale. That isn´t either good, nor bad. It is just different. I mean, by that Athena Exclamation would be only building level, Cell´s attacks only island level by feats. And that even when someone like Nappa before busted a far bigger area casual.

SS use 90% feats by focusing their power on a single point

DB use 40% feats by focusing their power on a single point.

Those are just examples, but i think you understand what i mean.

@eredin12 said:

@varricpatermann:

Well Whis has fully mastered MUI so that is no help aginst him

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Mmm.... i don´t know how a fully mastered MUI looks like, that´s one probem with Whis. He hasn´t shown his full potential for fight and i think he has a lot of unfair abilities that could help him a battle. But Whis besides a few feats ans scaling is unknown.

Can they come back from Hakai? Also Whis only needs to knock them out or seal them

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If you erase the soul with him then i doubt they will come back. The problem is more that they can seperate the body from the soul, so the Hakai would probably erase the body, why the soul just create a new one. I also don´t know if Whis can use Hakai. But yes, Hakai should work against people with low-godly regen if they can erase body and soul.

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#159  Edited By gelato_exotic

@varricpatermann:

True. And it isn´t my intention to make those debates toxic, but a few people often try to provoke and wank or downplay other verses. That counts for SS and of course that counts for Dragonball. What counts more is the context in the debates and based on that SS and DB are entirely different. While DB is more based on feats, SS is more based on statements. Doesn´t mean they don´t have feats, but some feats make only sense if they are better explained.

Yeah, I'm not talking about you or I but some DB and SS fans take it a little too far sometimes in every thread I've seen, especially when each sides start downplaying the other out of bad faith which they know is false like Goku not being Universal or nonsense like Athena Exclamation being building level.

Well, i didn´t say Shaka is multiversal. There are valid terms that can be solid and accepted for the infinite term, but based on Shaka´s statement it is to vague. Like you sad it also depends on the tiering system. I rather to avoid the multiversal term if we talking about a finite amount of universes. The tiering system which you mean is mostly based on VsBattle from what i remember.

I see, I guess I misunderstood what you thought about the tiering system, that's a mistake on my part my bad.

Well, VsBattle and OBD argue for SS that they have superior speed, which is a point where most of you guys disagree, or not? What i mean is, you shouldn´t give those wikis all the credibility. The tiering system isn´t perfect, the only good point where i can give the wiki one + is based on the profiles and explanations.

I'm pretty on the fence about who has superior speed compared to DB and SS. By quantifiable feats (Shura's feat is kinda unquantifiable besides being faster than his previous feats, namely faster than him reacting to AP Aiolos's attacks from another Universe) both are pretty relative to each other and basically on par. I'm not a fan of arguing whether or not SS is faster or DB is faster since it relies on too much headcanon and fan calcs for the feats on both which are really similar in scale, but doing so I guess DB god tiers could argued to be slightly faster with the ToP scaling, but regardless I don't think either verse is faster than the other enough to be able to blitz each other.

Well, it not only symbolizes the creation or destruction of a universe. It is a entire chain between creation and destruction which happend on another plane then Seiya and the others exist. You see them sitting just around, while within their sense the battle starts.

Yeah.

Well, stamina shouldn´t be a problem in SS thanks to reactive powerlevel (Which also have people like Goku too) plus miracles. You can say it is a chain reaction of universal creation and destruction, where one side try to stop the destruction and one s ide try do overcome that stop.

Agreed, this is exactly what I'm saying.

Oh, don´t get me wrong. I never said they can destroy the universe with it, since SS works different. You already explained it how it works, it is similar to Athena´s exclamation that works on a single point. Most attacks are focused on a single point and still have the capacity to destroy a universe. If Shaka hit someone with his attacks, he probably wouldn´t destroy the universe, but someone who has universal durability, because all that power is focused on one point.

Why not? I think Shaka if he wanted could in fact actually destroy the Universe or at the very least create one if he wanted to, I just don't think he can destroy countless ones on his own is what I'm saying. Gold Saints do have feats on the Universal scale like Mu destroying/teleporting way Lapeto's mini Universe and even creating his own, some god tiers being able to tank and perform an Athena exclamation on their own. Their attacks are usually focused on a single point because Cosmo is capable of that but with Lapeto's high scale feats I'm sure they could have the AOE to galaxy or Universe bust if they wanted. Even Galaxian Explosion in Episode G has legitimate multi solar system and galaxy level feats besides being focused on a single point instances.

Dragonball at this point shows the power, they don´t focus most attacks on a single point or at least not that good. They can fire attacks which destroy islands but in fact they have the potency do damage people with planetary durability (Early Dragonball) So they have some kind of the same type, but not on that scale. That isn´t either good, nor bad. It is just different. I mean, by that Athena Exclamation would be only building level, Cell´s attacks only island level by feats. And that even when someone like Nappa before busted a far bigger area casual.

SS use 90% feats by focusing their power on a single point

DB use 40% feats by focusing their power on a single point.

Those are just examples, but i think you understand what i mean.

Honestly kinda disagree, although yeah Dragon Ball does have more DC feats than SS, but SS also definitely has shown to be capable of showcasing the damage from their AP, particularly with Gold Saints like Mu and Saga, or even Nebula Chain destroying multiple planets on panel in one shot. Just like DB characters with ki control they just don't do so often because well, they have no reason to just destroy the Galaxy or Universe for no reason lmao. Athena Exclamation is by feats building level agreed, but it scales above attacks like Galaxian Explosion which has on panel made a Galaxy fall apart, SS is definitely capable of destructive feats like DB characters when they want to.

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#160 Eredin12  Online

@varricpatermann:

Mmm.... i don´t know how a fully mastered MUI looks like, that´s one probem with Whis. He hasn´t shown his full potential for fight and i think he has a lot of unfair abilities that could help him a battle. But Whis besides a few feats ans scaling is unknown.

We know it scales far above one Goku showed, that is eanugh for now

If you erase the soul with him then i doubt they will come back. The problem is more that they can seperate the body from the soul, so the Hakai would probably erase the body, why the soul just create a new one.

Its still win since they are temporarily beaten

I also don´t know if Whis can use Hakai. But yes, Hakai should work against people with low-godly regen if they can erase body and soul.

I mean evrey GoD knows it, they were once mortals with no training so they did not learn it on their own and their angels thought them evrything they know, they train them, so pretty sure he can

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VarricPatermann

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@varricpatermann:

True. And it isn´t my intention to make those debates toxic, but a few people often try to provoke and wank or downplay other verses. That counts for SS and of course that counts for Dragonball. What counts more is the context in the debates and based on that SS and DB are entirely different. While DB is more based on feats, SS is more based on statements. Doesn´t mean they don´t have feats, but some feats make only sense if they are better explained.

Yeah, I'm not talking about you or I but some DB and SS fans take it a little too far sometimes in every thread I've seen, especially when each sides start downplaying the other out of bad faith which they know is false like Goku not being Universal or nonsense like Athena Exclamation being building level.

Yeah, in the last time debates between both verses are often toxic, but tbf back in the time where i was here it was better. You only have one toxic side and now you have two sides that are often aggressive in debates. By the non-universal nonsens it was more because the statement of one of the writers on the DBS Anime. However, i can agree that it isn´t accurate at all. It was more based an answer on the downplay of TheVectorPrime his pseudo-debunk thread. The problem is, you can play the same game with Dragonball, and that´s why both side are become toxic.

Well, i didn´t say Shaka is multiversal. There are valid terms that can be solid and accepted for the infinite term, but based on Shaka´s statement it is to vague. Like you sad it also depends on the tiering system. I rather to avoid the multiversal term if we talking about a finite amount of universes. The tiering system which you mean is mostly based on VsBattle from what i remember.

I see, I guess I misunderstood what you thought about the tiering system, that's a mistake on my part my bad.

Not your mistake. You aren´t wrong by people who said that would be multiverse, since it really depends on the tiering system. The definition of a multiverse is very wide, it can sound impressive but in many cases it isn´t. Multiversal can be just multi-universal.

Well, VsBattle and OBD argue for SS that they have superior speed, which is a point where most of you guys disagree, or not? What i mean is, you shouldn´t give those wikis all the credibility. The tiering system isn´t perfect, the only good point where i can give the wiki one + is based on the profiles and explanations.

I'm pretty on the fence about who has superior speed compared to DB and SS. By quantifiable feats (Shura's feat is kinda unquantifiable besides being faster than his previous feats, namely faster than him reacting to AP Aiolos's attacks from another Universe) both are pretty relative to each other and basically on par. I'm not a fan of arguing whether or not SS is faster or DB is faster since it relies on too much headcanon and fan calcs for the feats on both which are really similar in scale, but doing so I guess DB god tiers could argued to be slightly faster with the ToP scaling, but regardless I don't think either verse is faster than the other enough to be able to blitz each other.

It wasn´t my intention to debate the speed between both verses, it was more my intention to talk about a wiki which are you using as reference that they put Shaka only on universal. The same Wiki who accept the Shura´s expansion feat/calc. Going by VsBattle matches they often argued in favor for SS, even if the DB characters are one tiering level above them, because if you read the meaning behin every tiering level, 3-A and 2-B aren´t really much different. One is a universe and one are finite universes. Universes + universes are just more universes, you are not within a higher dimension that protect you. That is only relevant later behind the 2-A scale. The entire sector between 10-C to 2-A are just relevant for the stats. There exist probably people that are not even planetary and are still faster then SS and DB characters, but they couldn´t survive without planet for example. There are also people who have some stat ignoring hax, like spatial attacks that just attacks trough you, which means that guy can be a 8-A fodder and still oneshots universal people as long they are bound by the spatial concepts. Of course that is just theory, while in practice those people often get horribly blitzed by other characters, since in the most cases galaxy level people or higher have some good showed distance feats. Accelerator who is by his own stats probably city level currently has a system that operates far above that paygrade, that´s why he can oneshot people comparable to the creator gods of ToAru. Someone who is 3-A who fought against someone who is Low 2-C isn´t automatically in disadvantage. It is only based on superior stats, which would help against mostly people without regeneration and hax. But if people have at least a comparable speed or hax that ignores the stats to the opponent, you have trouble even against an inferior enemy.

Oh, don´t get me wrong. I never said they can destroy the universe with it, since SS works different. You already explained it how it works, it is similar to Athena´s exclamation that works on a single point. Most attacks are focused on a single point and still have the capacity to destroy a universe. If Shaka hit someone with his attacks, he probably wouldn´t destroy the universe, but someone who has universal durability, because all that power is focused on one point.

Why not? I think Shaka if he wanted could in fact actually destroy the Universe or at the very least create one if he wanted to, I just don't think he can destroy countless ones on his own is what I'm saying. Gold Saints do have feats on the Universal scale like Mu destroying/teleporting way Lapeto's mini Universe and even creating his own, some god tiers being able to tank and perform an Athena exclamation on their own. Their attacks are usually focused on a single point because Cosmo is capable of that but with Lapeto's high scale feats I'm sure they could have the AOE to galaxy or Universe bust if they wanted. Even Galaxian Explosion in Episode G has legitimate multi solar system and galaxy level feats besides being focused on a single point instances.

Virgo Shaka his ability is a creation ability that would expand as a universe, like a Big Bang. While Virgo Asmita has something that ends the expansion and destroyed it as counterpart. Those attackas would be like the ones which Beerus showed against Goku, with the difference that Virgo can spam a lot of that within a very short timeframe. Wait, that would be more when Shijima attacks here. Virgo would just expand a universe within a universe, which probably would collapse the old universe as well. Not lesser impressive.

Of course Gold Saints having some Universal feats and statements. But what i mean was that most attacks are more focused on a single point. That doesn´t looks impressive, for example when Hades was killed by Athena and her Saints. But what people often forget is that those attacks can manage universal power or higher. It only doesn´t look that impressive. For that we have Episode G, which is more impressive.

Dragonball at this point shows the power, they don´t focus most attacks on a single point or at least not that good. They can fire attacks which destroy islands but in fact they have the potency do damage people with planetary durability (Early Dragonball) So they have some kind of the same type, but not on that scale. That isn´t either good, nor bad. It is just different. I mean, by that Athena Exclamation would be only building level, Cell´s attacks only island level by feats. And that even when someone like Nappa before busted a far bigger area casual.

SS use 90% feats by focusing their power on a single point

DB use 40% feats by focusing their power on a single point.

Those are just examples, but i think you understand what i mean.

Honestly kinda disagree, although yeah Dragon Ball does have more DC feats than SS, but SS also definitely has shown to be capable of showcasing the damage from their AP, particularly with Gold Saints like Mu and Saga, or even Nebula Chain destroying multiple planets on panel in one shot. Just like DB characters with ki control they just don't do so often because well, they have no reason to just destroy the Galaxy or Universe for no reason lmao. Athena Exclamation is by feats building level agreed, but it scales above attacks like Galaxian Explosion which has on panel made a Galaxy fall apart, SS is definitely capable of destructive feats like DB characters when they want to.

I know both can destroy planets, stars, etc. if they want. They just don´t do it because mechanics, or because moral. They have some ways to concentrate the power to a single point, what i mean was more that SS more use that kind of power, while DB expand their power with the attacks. Or they just concentrate it not good enough, but still good enough that they cause universal damage on a single point by harming a universal being, instead of the area complete. What i mean is that most attacks in DB have more power then they have showing. Vegeta hurt Cell with an attack that destroyed a part of an island. We both know that Cell never is island level. I think that attack was concentrated that the damage mostly was used against Cell, instead of the area. It would be different, when he dodge the attack complete. Do you remember when Freezer kicked Vegeta his attack in space where it created an explosion that was big enough to destroy countless planets. Don´t know if that was filler, but that would be like i think how attacks in DB works. If they hit the enemy, the area takes only low damage, because most of the power tanked the enemy. If the attack get countered it destroy a planet easy.

In SS it is more one attack is that focused, you probably wouldn´t even destroy a building, but can harm a god cloth which tanks universal attacks for the lols before.

@eredin12 said:

@varricpatermann:

We know it scales far above one Goku showed, that is eanugh for now

It scales above Goku, but are we knowing how much more effective it is then what Goku has shown against Jiren?

Its still win since they are temporarily beaten


Beaten when they still fight as astral projection? I mean, they can try to use Hakai against the astral projection too, but that´s where reactive evolution comes into the play. SS characters are getting really fast resistant or immune against attack that they see or tanked once before. It was often stated one attack can´t harm a Saint a second time, because the reactive evolution. If Shaka escape and the body is getting erased then Shaka just have a high resistance against Hakai, because he now knows the function and transcended himself to a point where the attack isn´t that dangerous more before. That is a typical standard ability ever Gold Saint has.

I mean evrey GoD knows it, they were once mortals with no training so they did not learn it on their own and their angels thought them evrything they know, they train them, so pretty sure he can

Hmm... i wonder more if the angels can use it, when the power of destruction isn´t part of their own rules. For that gods of destruction exist, or not? They probably have something similar then Hakai, but those power of destruction is more a GoD gift from what i remember. Sure, angels are superior to this, but we can only speculate about those abilities.

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Eredin12

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#162 Eredin12  Online

@varricpatermann:

It scales above Goku, but are we knowing how much more effective it is then what Goku has shown against Jiren?

My point was just that him having sixth snese and precog will not help since Whis has a better one

Beaten when they still fight as astral projection? I mean, they can try to use Hakai against the astral projection too, but that´s where reactive evolution comes into the play. SS characters are getting really fast resistant or immune against attack that they see or tanked once before. It was often stated one attack can´t harm a Saint a second time, because the reactive evolution. If Shaka escape and the body is getting erased then Shaka just have a high resistance against Hakai, because he now knows the function and transcended himself to a point where the attack isn´t that dangerous more before. That is a typical standard ability ever Gold Saint has.

Hakai attacks and erases both body and soul at once, so dont really think separating one form another would help, it would still erase both at once

Hmm... i wonder more if the angels can use it, when the power of destruction isn´t part of their own rules. For that gods of destruction exist, or not? They probably have something similar then Hakai, but those power of destruction is more a GoD gift from what i remember. Sure, angels are superior to this, but we can only speculate about those abilities.

Angels are one that thought them that ability really since they train them sure normally they probably cannot use that since it goes against angel law but in battle forums that does not matter

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Monstar572

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Whis barley has feats

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gelato_exotic

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#164  Edited By gelato_exotic

@varricpatermann:

Yeah, in the last time debates between both verses are often toxic, but tbf back in the time where i was here it was better. You only have one toxic side and now you have two sides that are often aggressive in debates. By the non-universal nonsens it was more because the statement of one of the writers on the DBS Anime. However, i can agree that it isn´t accurate at all. It was more based an answer on the downplay of TheVectorPrime his pseudo-debunk thread. The problem is, you can play the same game with Dragonball, and that´s why both side are become toxic.

Yeah, I think we even talked about that before in another thread a month or two ago, the DBS writer was really just referring to Goku's character and whether he actually would do it (which he obviously wouldn't unless he became a GoD, another thing that would imply he was talking about character is the fact that he said it may be possible, despite the fact that DBS's offical website from Toei which he himself works for says that GoDs like Beerus can easily destroy the entire Universe) and not whether he can, after all he doesn't care about powerscaling and doesn't sit around thinking if Goku has the strength to destroy the Universe since in the DBS story it truly doesn't matter since Goku isn't some villain or God of Destruction. He even agreed that Goku probably could later when the guy who asked said that Goku could one shot Universe 7, but said he still wouldn't.

TheVectorPrime is trash lol I debated him one time on NarutoForums abouot his SS downplay he has no idea about what he's talking about. He has a problem with using a lot of fake or mistranslated scans too.

It wasn´t my intention to debate the speed between both verses, it was more my intention to talk about a wiki which are you using as reference that they put Shaka only on universal. The same Wiki who accept the Shura´s expansion feat/calc. Going by VsBattle matches they often argued in favor for SS, even if the DB characters are one tiering level above them, because if you read the meaning behin every tiering level, 3-A and 2-B aren´t really much different. One is a universe and one are finite universes. Universes + universes are just more universes, you are not within a higher dimension that protect you. That is only relevant later behind the 2-A scale. The entire sector between 10-C to 2-A are just relevant for the stats. There exist probably people that are not even planetary and are still faster then SS and DB characters, but they couldn´t survive without planet for example. There are also people who have some stat ignoring hax, like spatial attacks that just attacks trough you, which means that guy can be a 8-A fodder and still oneshots universal people as long they are bound by the spatial concepts. Of course that is just theory, while in practice those people often get horribly blitzed by other characters, since in the most cases galaxy level people or higher have some good showed distance feats. Accelerator who is by his own stats probably city level currently has a system that operates far above that paygrade, that´s why he can oneshot people comparable to the creator gods of ToAru. Someone who is 3-A who fought against someone who is Low 2-C isn´t automatically in disadvantage. It is only based on superior stats, which would help against mostly people without regeneration and hax. But if people have at least a comparable speed or hax that ignores the stats to the opponent, you have trouble even against an inferior enemy.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Yeah of course, there's a lot more factors to arguing for a character in a fight than just who can hit harder.

Virgo Shaka his ability is a creation ability that would expand as a universe, like a Big Bang. While Virgo Asmita has something that ends the expansion and destroyed it as counterpart. Those attackas would be like the ones which Beerus showed against Goku, with the difference that Virgo can spam a lot of that within a very short timeframe. Wait, that would be more when Shijima attacks here. Virgo would just expand a universe within a universe, which probably would collapse the old universe as well. Not lesser impressive.

Of course Gold Saints having some Universal feats and statements. But what i mean was that most attacks are more focused on a single point. That doesn´t looks impressive, for example when Hades was killed by Athena and her Saints. But what people often forget is that those attacks can manage universal power or higher. It only doesn´t look that impressive. For that we have Episode G, which is more impressive.

Shijima has the Universe busting attack while Shaka has the creation one ye, I don;t remember Asmita having that but I haven't read The Lost Canvas in a while so I could be wrong. Yeah, but thankfully every once in a while we do have DC feats from both SS and DB to prove that their DC isn't limited to their area of effect which they suppress intentionally.

I know both can destroy planets, stars, etc. if they want. They just don´t do it because mechanics, or because moral. They have some ways to concentrate the power to a single point, what i mean was more that SS more use that kind of power, while DB expand their power with the attacks. Or they just concentrate it not good enough, but still good enough that they cause universal damage on a single point by harming a universal being, instead of the area complete. What i mean is that most attacks in DB have more power then they have showing. Vegeta hurt Cell with an attack that destroyed a part of an island. We both know that Cell never is island level. I think that attack was concentrated that the damage mostly was used against Cell, instead of the area. It would be different, when he dodge the attack complete. Do you remember when Freezer kicked Vegeta his attack in space where it created an explosion that was big enough to destroy countless planets. Don´t know if that was filler, but that would be like i think how attacks in DB works. If they hit the enemy, the area takes only low damage, because most of the power tanked the enemy. If the attack get countered it destroy a planet easy.

In SS it is more one attack is that focused, you probably wouldn´t even destroy a building, but can harm a god cloth which tanks universal attacks for the lols before.

100% agree with everything you said. For the Frieza scene, it's not filler it was kept in Kai which is the main canon, although it was actually just one planet, rather than countless.

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Anime Whis stomps

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kilgpmktra

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#166  Edited By kilgpmktra

"Multiversal Goku"

"Jiren shook an infinite dimension"

Holy fuck, it just doesn't stop

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batmanFTW

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#167  Edited By batmanFTW
@kilgpmktra said:

"Multiversal Goku"

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LMFAO

OT: shaka solos

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#168  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@kilgpmktra:

"Multiversal Goku"

Something i never said but lets just ignore each other, that is best for evreyone really

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#169 Heatwave666  Online

@seiyasaiyajin:

Do I want to? I feel like it’s just gonna be people just spouting out Dragonball scaling and feats without acknowledging any of Saint Seiya lol

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VarricPatermann

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Sorry, i really forget to answer you:

@varricpatermann:

TheVectorPrime is trash lol I debated him one time on NarutoForums abouot his SS downplay he has no idea about what he's talking about. He has a problem with using a lot of fake or mistranslated scans too.

He used old SS scans for debunk. That is comparable to if you argue for MUI Goku and show a weakness of Kid Goku. That guy was really far behind reality, by taking posts out of context. I mean Hades is afraid of the sun, really? He already has forgotten that in the greek myth gods symbolized each planet and star(s). The sun represents Apollo.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Yeah of course, there's a lot more factors to arguing for a character in a fight than just who can hit harder.

It is just a mess with the tiering system. I don´t have a problem with the idea, but everyone brings up their own favorite tiering system or wiki, to take an advantage in a debate. I doubt that is really helpful in a debate. I am using RT and sometimes Wiki´s too, but i shouldn´t use them alone as vace value.

I don;t remember Asmita having that but I haven't read The Lost Canvas in a while so I could be wrong.

No, you are right, i confused the names. Asmita was from the Lost Canvas hahah. He never showed something on that level. The only thing which was more impressive in comparison to the other Virgo Saints is his Tenbu Horin which can destroy even the 8th sense.

Yeah, but thankfully every once in a while we do have DC feats from both SS and DB to prove that their DC isn't limited to their area of effect which they suppress intentionally.

Yeah. I mean it would be a bit heavy to explain why the universe was destroyed over and over again.

100% agree with everything you said. For the Frieza scene, it's not filler it was kept in Kai which is the main canon, although it was actually just one planet, rather than countless.

Oh ok. In the anime it looked like it could affect a lot of planets. Was even King Vegetas feat canon, when he destroyed 3 planets? Don´t remember.