Virgo Shaka(Saint Seiya) VS Whis (DB)

  • 163 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Avatar image for varricpatermann
VarricPatermann

2793

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I wonder why this is here is still debatable. Like TOAA vs Naruto as reference, lol.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#52  Edited By Eredin12

@caocao:

You disagree with Infinite Zamasu has a better chance?

Not just that he beats Whis part, Infinite Zamasu cannot be beat even when you destroy the universe he merged with reality itself, even if you destroy all things in-universe( universe busting turn it into the void) he will survive, you need to erase it from existnace like Zeno can to beat him and he was not just one universe but entire timeline if i remember right

It is different to erase a ghost or an immortal. Beerus didn´t say Hakai can´t erase immortals just for the lolz, he said based on the immortal Zamasu. They are different types of immortality and Zamasu his kind of immortality is superior to that one of a ghost. Goku even tried in the manga to erase Zamasu but he regenerate his half body which shouldn´t happend if Hakai „erased“ a part of a body.

The difference is that Zamasu was immortal by the wish of Super Shenron who is second only to Zeno, not even Grand Preist can probably kill that guy, only Zeno can or maybe Shenron himself, but Beerus can erase normal immortals like that ghost was

Type 3 is more that kind of ability Zeno has used, but i don´t remember Beerus erasing Zamasu along time and space. Beerus erased only that one Zamasu, before his wish and before stealing the time ring.

Check anime agian and you will see that Beeurs was sure that Hakai erasing one in present would would erase one in the future as well, but he had time ring and Shenron wish which saved him but normally it erases across time and space so it is type 3

Hax works on everyone isn´t automatically NLF. That´s why the term of hax exist. It is a cheating tool that allowed you to ignore the laws, for example ignoring the fact that someone is 1000 times more powerful and still affecting the enemy. You have only hax resistance against things that was shown. Goku even wasn´t immune against inferior things like poison or a virus for example. Those are things where you can more resist, then against hax.

It is NLF, because you still can resist with HAX resistance it does not work on anyone, no HAX does, it does not work on begins with HAX resistance

There exist of course hax which is limited, like Hakai for example. But there exist also hax which like Guldo his timestop which freezes everyone in that moment, even superior members of his team.

Even that can be resisted, Jiren already resisted time stop from Hit, with Vados saying he transcends time( i am not saying that he does, she siad that not me) any HAX can be resisted with hAX resistance, same is with Hakai, Hakai is extremly powerful HAX but some just have resistance to it in DB

Mafuba can seal people which are far superior to Roshi in the ToP.

Mafuba is the only HAX that nobady in DB so far showed resistance to yes

In Saint Seiya most hax ignored the stats of his opponent, the only reason why it not works are either because the cloth, which is explained, or because the fight against a god, which auto deflect every non-divine attack by statements and feats.

Yeah but this is talking about opponent outside his verse

Depended on if Hakai bypass stats or not. We have more then one example that it doesn´t bypass stats. Against Goku, against Freezer, against Zamasu, and probably i forget the one or other guy.

Not really, in DB its just that having enaugh power and strong enough stats comes with also having HAX resistance but those beings were still hit energy that erases soul and body from existence and tanked it, so atomizing will not work on Whis who is far above them in evrey way

I think the same, yeah. Whis should tank Big Bang attacks without much trouble.

He would literly no sell them, in fact as i said BoG Goku can tank big bang without any serious injury

That´s how pressure points are working, because you can´t train that bodyparts.

Not really that spits in face of physics and logic, all your body parts need to have at least somewhat comperable durabiltiy or you will die by a strong punch as the energy of it spreads through the body, and in DB we saw that is the case when evrey part of Goku was unharmed by a black hole which affects both outside and inside at once

There is also even proof in Dragonball if it comes to Hit, which attacked your pressure points as well.

He attacks heart but in DB they can tank hits from HT, Jiren can effortlessly tank them all, it does not ignore durability

Lucifer Morningstar isn´t really a human being, or other living species. Of course it wouldn´t work against him, like every attack from Saint Seiya or Dragonball wouldn´t work, since his true self exist in a different reality.

He is just an analogy, but it would not work on the body he has as well( in which he appears) or on Galactus for example( maybe he is a better example)

Only, because i doubt that Shaka has knowledge about aliens, or angels. They may have the same bodyparts, but that doesn´t mean they have the same pressure points.

My point is we agree that it will not work then, that is most important not the reason why it will not

Yeah, but it doesn´t destroyed the dimension, it just shocked the void. That is a bit different, unless we are thinking Jiren is more powerful then Zeno.

Yes but its still infinite, that is why its still better even if he did not destroy it, and no Zeno can erase all of existnace in DB including that dimension but much more than that

That is what i said. Since i doubt that soul destruction in SS ignores stats, i doubt it will work on that point. If it ignores stats, soul resistance would pretty much useless, unless you don´t have a soul.

So you agree that soul hax will not work?

I know what you mean, but instead of hax, they failed often in other far inferior terms, like i brought up above. Someone who resist hax because better stats, should no sell every poison, virus, or other influence. Hax is superior to most kind of natural influence.

Not really, that just shows they have resistance to those HAX but not to poison or breathing, those are difirnet kinds of damage and attacks

Dragonball characters can resist that kind of hax that they have shown where they can resist it.

Its not that it is limited , its just that they have HAX resistance to that, just like some in marvel have resistance to TP, and as i siad in DB hax resistance scales since it comes hand to hand with power up

There is also another problem, that they don´t even try to dodge hax if they are in character, which is kinda crazy in crossbattles against people with hax.

Depends on character really and Whis has UI he would instantly dodge it

It is relevant, because reactive evolution make Hakai for example complete useless against Shaka. It is a basic ability that allowed the opponent to become immune against the attacks of the enemy. The reactive powerlevel is relevant, because in the battle they become stronger and stronger. The miracles allowed the Saint to surpass even the level of his opponent, at least theoretically. It happens often in SS, but at this point i can agreed that is kinda NLF and works only on the highest powerlevel of the SS of Saint Seiya, but not higher. Which means in the worst case the Saint can use miracle to reached a level comparable to Chronos.

Agian i argue that he can just seal him

The problem with Saitama and Galactus is, that they even have more feats, but tbh: I doubt Saitama can even beat Whis, even if that guy is mostly featless and hasn´t shown much of his power and abilities.

Yeah Saitama by his current feats gets stomped by Namek Frieza let alone Whis but what i am saying is that we go by feats we have for now, not by maybe

Because we don´t know how his sealing ability looks like. If he is just trapped into another dimension, Shaka can travel as astral existence trough space and time. We also don´t know if that is an instant ability, or does it need time. Even that Mafuba needs time for prep and someone like Shaka isn´t stupid. He can just block it with Khan or outspeed it.

Well he said its better than Mafuba so it surely does not need more time, Mafuba prety much instantly traps the enemy really, and its not a dimensional trap since Zamasu can travel across dimensions but he cannot escape Mafuba and this one is even better than it and was intended to be used for him, so yeah that is what we know

I think that is enough

Based on Whis his sealing ability i don´t know, since we don´t know how it works. Do you understand now how the debate at this point isn´t usefull. We both can just speculate about his abilities.

Well i think knowledge we have about it( being superior to Mafuba) is enough for now to say that he can seal him

Oh ok. Was that even stated, that they lose their senses? I don´t remember that arc tbh, maybe i should rewatch/reread it. If we going with Tenbu Horin, you don´t get turned into candy, you will just lose with every word that Shaka is used one of your senses. Also he can even shut down the 6th sense.

It was shown, they where complelty lifeless, and unable to move or say anything, if normal person turned into it restained them like Vegito, they would not just be quiet and not try to move while beating eaten by an evil monster, they would scream, so they lost all their senses and their mind, yet Vegito restained it and sure Tenbu does not turn them into candy but just like candy it erases senses and Vegito can resist that senses erasing part

I thought he just overcome the state with his power.

Agian that is not how it works, in DB with power comes also HAX resistance, his power is what gave him resistance to his senses + mind being erased which will work here as well

As someone who isn´t bound by the universe it makes sense that he can travel between the universes. But does he have to use his scepter, or did he just travel without it?

Well he always has his Scepter with him, but he was shown to be able to perceive human-like beings( in seize) like Vados while traveling that fast, so his speed is not amped by it really

At least Whis should be able to be far faster then everyone in the DB universes.

Yeah besides Grand Preist

Avatar image for caocao
CaoCao

6090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 thanks for the reply. I will answer the days, because that would be a bit longer wall of text from he, haha.

Avatar image for ghostwarren
GhostWarren

1660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for gelato_exotic
gelato_exotic

8692

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#55  Edited By gelato_exotic

@caocao: it came from the Goku and pikkon crossing the afterlife feat IIRC which the canonicity of is debatable but should be canon to the dbz/S anime at least and applies to composite. I've seen way worse wank 50k FTL light speed bleach too, even 6D multiversal infinite speed Ichigo and all types of foolery. Personally I do believe in MFTL toei anime Z. but the fan calcs I dunno. And agreed, Regulus in general is a beast, Zodiac clamation is way cooler than Athena exclamation too, he is one of my fav gold saints next to Aioilia and Shijima. As for Whis, the scepter's speed somewhat does apply to his reaction speed at the very at least because of that one episode where he mentions misjudging the breaking speed and crashing into Earth too hard, but there are a few better feats then Whis travelling and I've been making a compilation of the best DB speed feats, but It'd be a clusterfuck to post rn. Also, yeah the interpretations especially with the gods in SS are really interesting, such as their possible higher dimensional existences and acausality and how it scales to the saints that fight them.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#56  Edited By Eredin12

@varricpatermann: Yeah 2 multi universal characters( while Whis has power edge) with one( Whis) having resistance to many of HAX of another one is totally comparable to Naruto vs literaly omnipotent being, totally!

Avatar image for caocao
CaoCao

6090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12

@caocao:

Not just that he beats Whis part, Infinite Zamasu cannot be beat even when you destroy the universe he merged with reality itself, even if you destroy all things in-universe( universe busting turn it into the void) he will survive, you need to erase it from existnace like Zeno can to beat him and he was not just one universe but entire timeline if i remember right

Nah, i don´t say he would beat Whis, i said he has a better chance then Whis. But that´s because his abilities he have, since Shaka can´t really affect him with his powers when Zamasu was fused with the space-time continuum. Its is more A>B>C alogic.

Yeah, i agree at this point. Busting the space alone isn´t enough, you need to erase him out of time and from what i remember Virgo Shaka doesn´t have the power to do it. He can travel trough time, but killing a former Zamasu wouldn´t help when the present Zamasu still exist.

For that someone like Zamasu you SS characters that can erase time constructs, like Kronos, Chronos or Saturn.

The difference is that Zamasu was immortal by the wish of Super Shenron who is second only to Zeno, not even Grand Preist can probably beat that guy, only Zeno can or maybe Shenron himself, but Beerus can erase normal immortals like that ghost was

And why he said he can´t kill immortals? I mean, if we talking about the 8th sense of the Saints, we talking about something that can control his own soul complete and can even fight with it. That is another level in comparison to regular ghosts.

Check anime agian and you will see that Beeurs was sure that Hakai erasing one in present would would erase one in the future as well, but he had time ring and Shenron wish which saved him but normally it erases across time and space so it is type 3

Ok, i will checking it.

It is NLF, because you still can resist with HAX resistance it does not work on anyone, no HAX does, it does not work on begins with HAX resistance

It depends on the hax. Hax based on a superior concept works, no matter how strong someone is. If you can manipulate the laws, the entire concepts of the universe, or even the plot there is nothing that you can do with strength, unless it was shown before that he can break trough it.

Hax has to be judged case by case and in the point how consistent it is. „Hax resistance“ is something that not exist in battle terms, at least not that i know only one side accept it, because it contradicts the definition of hax. Hax on the other case has a definition (At least based on Battle Wiki):

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.

Which means hax is like i said some sort of cheating too that ignore the stats of his opponent.

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.This is because, depending of the hax, the statistics bypassed may actually counter it if they have a higher enough scale. This, however, is not the case with certain hax, examples include Reality Warping, Probability Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, and other abilities that simply & logically cannot be countered by high statistics.

The most common hax ignore durability and their scale/potency are unrelated to their user AP and Tier. It "can" be measured with their effectiveness against their targets durability. It depended on the hax in the first place, like i said before.

Having resistances to certain hax can help characters/things to withstand them, but only if the specific resistances are around the same scale as the hax being used against them, or better.

And here is the point where Dragonball is relevant, because they resist certain kind of hax. Which means they should resist every kind of hax that they have literally resisted before, unless someone is more powerful.

Higher-Dimensional characters/structures are automatically immune to 3-Dimensional (or lower) hax, as they literally are infinitely more complex than them. The same logically happens to higher-dimensional hax in relation to even higher higher-dimensional characters/structures. Resistances also apply to higher-dimensional characters/structures, this needs to be hax of their same (or higher) dimensionality, and anything lower is not allowed to be added (due to being both inaccurate and misleading, making others think that the characters/structures can resist hax of their same dimensionality).

And that part is relevant for the likes of Lucifer Morningstar, so lower dimensional hax wouldn´t work and that makes of course sense, since most hax never shows that it can affect higher dimensional existence. That is like thinking Atomic destruction or Hakai would work against someone like God Sinbad from Magi, who exist on a higher reality then the SS and DB characters.

So it is exactly what i mean. Hax resistance is case by case. Which means someone has to show that he can resist the type of hax in the first place.

And to your point with NLF:

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)

This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

The NLF doesn´t include the term of hax, it only includes statements from the media which can be interprete on a limitless point. "Freezer can destroy the universe", statement by Kai is NLF for example. "The power of miracles is infinite", stated in Saint Seiya is NLF.

Even that can be resisted, Jiren already resisted time stop from Hit, with Vados saying he transcends time( i am not saying that he does, she siad that not me)

Which is more the term of NLF, if it comes to a statement that Jiren transcends time, especially in a void without time. That is more an ability that sounds cool, but you can´t compare Hit his timeskips with higher time manipulation which affect the entire universe, or can change your existence.

In fact Guldo his timestop is more time ability in terms of working then Hit his time skills (Those on the other hand looking more impressive of course)

any HAX can be resisted with hAX resistance, same is with Hakai, Hakai is extremly powerful HAX but some just have resistance to it in DB

The kind of hax can only resisted, if someone already resisted to it, or isn´t bound by the laws to make the hax even possible. See above the explanation about hax. There is no point that implied that you need hax resistance against Hakai, when people only broke out of it. It has to be explained, then it would be accepted as own term and DB has then some kind of hax-resistance just by existence. But that isn´t the case. I don´t know only one verse which have hax resistance. Most verses only has hax resistance by showing and only against the hax that they resist before. For other reasons, there exist mostly explanations/statements.

Mafuba is the only HAX that nobady in DB so far showed resistance to yes

As you can see, hax can bypass stats. And that is even a kind of hax which isn´t even that impressive in fiction.

Yeah but this is talking about opponent outside his verse

Of course, like every other verse. But like i said, there is no term that called hax-resistance before. Dragonball characters resist a few kind of hax, because they aren´t limitless. Another hax in DB is limitless like the Mafuba.

Not really, in DB its just that having enaugh power and strong enough stats comes with also having HAX resistance but those beings were still hit energy that erases soul and body from existence and tanked it, so atomizing will not work on Whis who is far above them in evrey way

How is it coming with hax resistance, if they never resist something that ignored stats?

He would literly no sell them, in fact as i said BoG Goku can tank big bang without any serious injury

Ok, that is indeed impressive. If it comes against Shaka, he has to tank a multiple universal attack

Not really that spits in face of physics and logic, all your body parts need to have at least somewhat comperable durabiltiy or you will die by a strong punch as the energy of it spreads through the body, and in DB we saw that is the case when evrey part of Goku was unharmed by a black hole which affects both outside and inside at once

That´s why you can easy knock out someone who trained all his life, if you know where you have to hit him. You only have to hit the right spot, no matter how durable he is. You can´t train those points, at least not in reality. You can´t even train your balls being harder, but if someone kicks you in that, you will have trouble. I know fiction is different, but Saint Seiya has pressure points and Dragonball thanks to Hit has pressure points as well. Pressure Points aren´t hax, still they don´t have really a high durability in comparison to other body parts.

I don´t get the black hole reference. Of course it is impressive but the Black Hole doesn´t attack your pressure points, it affect your entire body afaik with extreme gravitiy.

He attacks heart but in DB they can tank hits from HT, Jiren can effortlessly tank them all, it does not ignore durability

Probably because Jiren is another species, or they can resist indeed pressure points. However, for most people Hit his style is deadly. It isn´t hax, it is just a common combat style to know where you have to „hit“, haha.

He is just an analogy, but it would not work on the body he has as well( in which he appears) or on Galactus for example( maybe he is a better example)

It would not work, because he is different exitence. He exist on a different plane, isn´t bound by many laws and concepts. He has a physical body, but he doesn´t need it, he can be abstract or something other. He can be what he want. That´s why neither pressure points, nor regular hax would work on him. He is a higherdimensional existence, outside of the entire laws, while nearly everyone in DB has mostly a physical form and interact physical with others. Whis exist above the universes, so he should exist about time as well. Still he is no higherdimensional existence, he can physical interact with the other. If we talking about Lucifer Morningstar, we have something complete different that would clear the floor with Saint Seiya and Dragonball together. Not only because he is stronger, more because they are like fiction to him. It is a different kind of power, where you will never see some fights like in Dragonball or Saint Seiya. It is complete different in terms of existing. Galactus has other problems. First one is the inconsistency most Marvel characters have, and second depended on his size it would be more easy or more hard to hit the pressure points.

My point is we agree that it will not work then, that is most important not the reason why it will not

Yes, at this point we complete agree.

Yes but its still infinite, that is why its still better even if he did not destroy it, and no Zeno can erase all of existnace in DB including that dimension but much more than that

Yes, but shocking something that is infinite doesn´t make sense in a void where nothing exist. Of course Zeno is above that stuff.

So you agree that soul hax will not work?

Yes, because two things:

  1. I don´t remember if it can bypass stats or not
  2. It is even unclear if Whis has a soul as something that exist outside of the universe and the realm.

Not really, that just shows they have resistance to those HAX but not to poison or breathing, those are difirnet kinds of damage and attacks

They have resistance against at least that kind of hax, where they resist before. Still, i would mean it looks a bit weird if someone can resist that, but not some fodder concepts. But, well fiction is of course often weird, that include Saint Seiya too.

Its not that it is limited , its just that they have HAX resistance to that, just like some in marvel have resistance to TP, and as i siad in DB hax resistance scales since it comes hand to hand with power up

That is a huge difference, because if those hax isn´t limited, that means it would be a Dragonball-only ability, the Hax resistance. I only don´t remember a statement or something that implied they can resist limitless hax and there is the problem. They have resist some kind of hax and in the other point, they can´t resist. Which means DB works exactly the same like most other fictions working in terms of hax.

Depends on character really and Whis has UI he would instantly dodge it

At least those should, because instinct. That is correct.

Agian i argue that he can just seal him

If he can hit Shaka with that, i don´t see a problem, but i have to know how the sealing ability works, because not every kind of sealing will work. If it is the same like Mafuba, i think it would work against Shaka as long he don´t use Khan in that moment. If it is just separate or sealing Shaka into another dimension, that doesn´t help since he can travel free from his body around space and time (Unless that dimension ist without time and space) I only need more informations how Whis his sealing ability looks like.

Yeah Saitama by his current feats gets stomped by Namek Frieza let alone Whis but what i am saying is that we go by feats we have for now, not by maybe

Not enough feats, or at least not to make the battle acceptable. It isn´t fair for Whis, since he never has shown his full potential. Of course depended on the character a few feats can be already enough to decide the fight, but based on Whis we don´t know what he can. We know he can turn back the time to a very short moment, we know he has a better kind of Mafuba then Roshi, we know that he blitzed and oneshoted Beerus and scaled from other angels we know he has some kind of magic too. But for example we don´t know if he can use Hakai or erase targets. Someone who is superior doesn´t mean he has the same abilities or higher automatically.

Well he said its better than Mafuba so it surely does not need more time, Mafuba prety much instantly traps the enemy really, and its not a dimensional trap since Zamasu can travel across dimensions but he cannot escape Mafuba and this one is even better than it and was intended to be used for him, so yeah that is what we know

I think that is enough

Hmm... we interprete a lot here, but i don´t know tbh. Let´s say it is a more effective Mafuba then he can seal Shaka with it, the only question is how?

Well i think knowledge we have about it( being superior to Mafuba) is enough for now to say that he can seal him

Well, i think even Mafuba can seal Shaka, if it hits him. But imagine Whis his sealing ability is instantly, so he would auto-win. The problem is, we don´t know.

It was shown, they where complelty lifeless, and unable to move or say anything, if normal person turned into it restained them like Vegito, they would not just be quiet and not try to move while beating eaten by an evil monster, they would scream, so they lost all their senses and their mind, yet Vegito restained it and sure Tenbu does not turn them into candy but just like candy it erases senses and Vegito can resist that senses erasing part

That is not how it works, since those are complete different types of abilities. At least i don´t saw anywhere that it is comparable to a shutdown of the sense. There isn´t even a statement for that, those people that Boo turned into something are probably not without sense, they are probably dead or worse. Vegito resist that ability to a certain degree that he didn´t become complete to candy in that point that he can still fight.

But let us going with the scenario that it deletes his senses, Shaka can delete the 6th sense as well, which means they are getting shutted down to a superior attack, since regular people only have 5 senses and Vegito by that has only one sense more. (Which still contradict in the working, since the 6th sense is more comparable to the Ultra Instinct.

Agian that is not how it works, in DB with power comes also HAX resistance, his power is what gave him resistance to his senses + mind being erased which will work here as well

Like i said before, that hax resistance goes with that what the opponent has shown on resistance. No one has auto-resistance against hax and no side will accept that from what i remember.

Well he always has his Scepter with him, but he was shown to be able to perceive human-like beings( in seize) like Vados while traveling that fast, so his speed is not amped by it really

Oh ok. I just remember when he crossed with Beerus trough the galaxies, but that was when DBS was new haha.

Yeah besides Grand Preist

Exactly.

Avatar image for varricpatermann
VarricPatermann

2793

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 said:

@varricpatermann: Yeah 2 multi universal characters( while Whis has power edge)

What do you mean with "power edge"? Shaka create nearly infinite universes, in the same time even Zeno only managed to destroy 12 universes featwise (Creation needs more power then destruction). And Zeno>Whis

with one( Whis) having resistance to many of HAX

Where has Whis shown that he resist hax?

of another one is totally comparable to Naruto vs literaly omnipotent being, totally!

I chose the reference, because i know difference is exaggerated. The point is, between Whis and Shaka are differences.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@caocao:

Yeah, i agree at this point. Busting the space alone isn´t enough, you need to erase him out of time and from what i remember Virgo Shaka doesn´t have the power to do it. He can travel trough time, but killing a former Zamasu wouldn´t help when the present Zamasu still exist.

For that someone like Zamasu you SS characters that can erase time constructs, like Kronos, Chronos or Saturn.

Fair

And why he said he can´t kill immortals? I mean, if we talking about the 8th sense of the Saints, we talking about something that can control his own soul complete and can even fight with it. That is another level in comparison to regular ghosts.

Well regular ghost controls his soul completly as well, i mena he kind of is his soul lol and i dont even remember him saying that in anime but eiather way he probably only meant immortals in snese Zamasu was not normal immortals since it worked on ghost just fine

It depends on the hax. Hax based on a superior concept

works, no matter how strong someone is. If you can manipulate the laws, the entire concepts of the universe, or even the plot there is nothing that you can do with strength, unless it was shown before that he can break trough it.

Hax has to be judged case by case and in the point how consistent it is. „Hax resistance“ is something that not exist in battle terms, at least not that i know only one side accept it, because it contradicts the definition of hax. Hax on the other case has a definition (At least based on Battle Wiki):

I never heard of that( people not accepting it) Teleapthy is HAX but there are people with resistance to it, Adam Warlocks soul manipulation is HAX but some have resistance to it, there is always people with resistance or it is NLF

Which means hax is like i said some sort of cheating too that ignore the stats of his opponent.

Sure it can bypass one or more statistics as it says, for example TP ignores strenght but there are still people with HAX resistance to it that it cannot bypass

And here is the point where Dragonball is relevant, because they resist certain kind of hax. Which means they should resist every kind of hax that they have literally resisted before, unless someone is more powerful.

Yeah they can resist all hax they resisted unless that character HAX is above one they resisted

The NLF doesn´t include the term of hax, it only includes statements from the media which can be interprete on a limitless point. "Freezer can destroy the universe", statement by Kai is NLF for example. "The power of miracles is infinite", stated in Saint Seiya is NLF.

Not really that is not NLF that is just exaggeration, what is NLF is to say Saitama showed no limits, he can one punch anyone therefore he beats Galactus or some pressure points HAX that only worked on fodders will work on Galactus who is not higher dimensional being

Which is more the term of NLF, if it comes to a statement that Jiren transcends time, especially in a void without time. That is more an ability that sounds cool, but you can´t compare Hit his timeskips with higher time manipulation which affect the entire universe, or can change your existence.

1.This is not NLF as i siad above, nothing debunked this

2.There was a "time" in it, if there was no time they would be frozen, and Hit did freeze him in time temporarily but he resisted it

3. This was not time skip but literal time stop, meaning time stoped, you dont go higher than that, and he resisted it

In fact Guldo his timestop is more time ability in terms of working then Hit his time skills (Those on the other hand looking more impressive of course)

Not really since this was time stop not time skip

The kind of hax can only resisted, if someone already resisted to it, or isn´t bound by the laws to make the hax even possible. See above the explanation about hax. There is no point that implied that you need hax resistance against Hakai, when people only broke out of it. It has to be explained, then it would be accepted as own term and DB has then some kind of hax-resistance just by existence. But that isn´t the case. I don´t know only one verse which have hax resistance. Most verses only has hax resistance by showing and only against the hax that they resist before. For other reasons, there exist mostly explanations/statements.

I agree that they have only HAX resistance to thing they showed, and it was not said but it was shown( for Hakai) it erases soul and body from existnace, that ignores conventional durabiltiy but some can resist it thanks to their HAX resistance

As you can see, hax can bypass stats. And that is even a kind of hax which isn´t even that impressive in fiction.

Sure, but agian that here does not matter

Of course, like every other verse. But like i said, there is no term that called hax-resistance before. Dragonball characters resist a few kind of hax, because they aren´t limitless. Another hax in DB is limitless like the Mafuba.

No not really, we only saw in DB characters get resistance to some HAX not others, but if soul destroying hAX it in DB does not work aginst them, weaker one in other verse is not going to eaither

How is it coming with hax resistance, if they never resist something that ignored stats?

But they did, these kinds of thigns do ignore conventional stats as in durability but more power in DB also comes with more HAX resistances which is why more powerful characters tank that HAX

That´s why you can easy knock out someone who trained all his life, if you know where you have to hit him. You only have to hit the right spot, no matter how durable he is. You can´t train those points, at least not in reality. You can´t even train your balls being harder, but if someone kicks you in that, you will have trouble. I know fiction is different, but Saint Seiya has pressure points and Dragonball thanks to Hit has pressure points as well. Pressure Points aren´t hax, still they don´t have really a high durability in comparison to other body parts.

I don´t get the black hole reference. Of course it is impressive but the Black Hole doesn´t attack your pressure points, it affect your entire body afaik with extreme gravitiy.

1.Agian not really even in real it is somwhat comperable sure it can help but still, if your durability is eanugh to no sell Gau 8 bullets and tank shell hiting pressure points is not doing anything eiather, and as i said that is not really case in DB as well, but more about that bellow

2.It attacks evrey part of your body including pressure points with ridiculous force

Probably because Jiren is another species, or they can resist indeed pressure points. However, for most people Hit his style is deadly. It isn´t hax, it is just a common combat style to know where you have to „hit“, haha.

Or maybe because Jiren is just that durable given that Hit is an extremely old master assassin that knows the pressure points of alien species as wells, where they hear is that is, but Jiren is just that durable

It would not work, because he is different exitence. He exist on a different plane, isn´t bound by many laws and concepts. He has a physical body, but he doesn´t need it, he can be abstract or something other. He can be what he want. That´s why neither pressure points, nor regular hax would work on him. He is a higherdimensional existence, outside of the entire laws, while nearly everyone in DB has mostly a physical form and interact physical with others.

Not really Galan is a prety physical being, he can be hurt or killed physicals if your power is strong enough, so yeah

Whis exist above the universes, so he should exist about time as well. Still he is no higherdimensional existence, he can physical interact with the other. If we talking about Lucifer Morningstar, we have something complete different that would clear the floor with Saint Seiya and Dragonball together. Not only because he is stronger, more because they are like fiction to him. It is a different kind of power, where you will never see some fights like in Dragonball or Saint Seiya. It is complete different in terms of existing. Galactus has other problems. First one is the inconsistency most Marvel characters have, and second depended on his size it would be more easy or more hard to hit the pressure points.

Well Galan is consistently very powerful, many argue that he beats Hades and for his seize, sure that is problem but not unsolvable as far as pressure points goes but still some fodders doing that to him sounds silly and NLF

Yes, but shocking something that is infinite doesn´t make sense in a void where nothing exist. Of course Zeno is above that stuff.

Well, he did it, there is clearly something if there was literly nothing he would not be able to shake it, you cannot shake anything, yet he did, so he still shaked infinite dimension

If he can hit Shaka with that, i don´t see a problem, but i have to know how the sealing ability works, because not every kind of sealing will work. If it is the same like Mafuba, i think it would work against Shaka as long he don´t use Khan in that moment. If it is just separate or sealing Shaka into another dimension, that doesn´t help since he can travel free from his body around space and time (Unless that dimension ist without time and space) I only need more informations how Whis his sealing ability looks like.

Well as I explained below its not dimension sealing, its even better than Mafbua

Hmm... we interprete a lot here, but i don´t know tbh. Let´s say it is a more effective Mafuba then he can seal Shaka with it, the only question is how?

Well if it can easily be used in 1x1 fight and is better than Mafuba i dont think how matters much really

That is not how it works, since those are complete different types of abilities. At least i don´t saw anywhere that it is comparable to a shutdown of the sense. There isn´t even a statement for that, those people that Boo turned into something are probably not without sense, they are probably dead or worse. Vegito resist that ability to a certain degree that he didn´t become complete to candy in that point that he can still fight.

what I am saying is that they were dead, and naturally, they lost all senses with that yet Vegito was not, he was turned into complete candy but still somehow retained his voice and eyes with no mouth or eyes

But let us going with the scenario that it deletes his senses, Shaka can delete the 6th sense as well, which means they are getting shutted down to a superior attack, since regular people only have 5 senses and Vegito by that has only one sense more. (Which still contradict in the working, since the 6th sense is more comparable to the Ultra Instinct.

Well if he restains those 5 he can fight just fine, also how is 6 sense same as UI?

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#61  Edited By Eredin12

@varricpatermann:

What do you mean with "power edge"? Shaka create nearly infinite universes, in the same time even Zeno only managed to destroy 12 universes featwise (Creation needs more power then destruction). And Zeno>Whis

Zeno can erase all of existence in DB including infinite dimension outside of those 12 universes with ease, and not just those universes but many parallel timlines that are also part of existnace

Also, something cannot be nearly infinite, that is a logical contradiction, anything that is not literaly infinite is finite, and anything finite is infinitely smaller than something infinite so i am not sure what you are talking about here

Where has Whis shown that he resist hax?

Not Whis but people far weaker than him, it scales to him

I chose the reference, because i know difference is exaggerated. The point is, between Whis and Shaka are differences.

Well i disagree but that is normal we dont need to have same opinion but that example was still stupid not matter how you look at it

Avatar image for caocao
CaoCao

6090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 said:

@caocao:

Fair

At some points it is better to use a weaker character with the right abilities, as a more powerful character with unknown abilities. There are probably some other DB characters a better match, the only problem would be speed. But imagine a Robot like C16 where soul manipulation and even sense manipulation doesn´t work, alone from the fact he doesn´t need or have it.

Well regular ghost controls his soul completly as well, i mena he kind of is his soul lol and i dont even remember him saying that in anime but eiather way he probably only meant immortals in snese Zamasu was not normal immortals since it worked on ghost just fine

Hmm i doubt that ghost can turn back into a living form, or regenerate a body. That where you need Dragonballs to reanimate people, you don´t need if you have the 8th sense, because you aren´t bound by the underworld anymore. You can even free enter the underworld fighting as ghost, while your physical body regenerates from a non-existent level.

I never heard of that( people not accepting it) Teleapthy is HAX but there are people with resistance to it, Adam Warlocks soul manipulation is HAX but some have resistance to it, there is always people with resistance or it is NLF

I heard/read it often, especially when debating Dragonball against verses with hax, because DB is one example for a verse that use more phyiscs, power and destruction instead of hax. Sure, there are people who resist it, but what i mean is that the term "Hax resistance" doesn´t exist as definition. There are people who said that a verse automatically works that way that you only have to become stronger to break the hax or are getting resistant to immune against it. And that is the part what not is accepted. Maybe i get your post wrong at the beginning, because of course someone who has shown resistance before can resist that kind of hax too under some circumstances. You can even scale that resistance to other people and that is complete ok.

Sure it can bypass one or more statistics as it says, for example TP ignores strenght but there are still people with HAX resistance to it that it cannot bypass

Yes, if they already managed to resist something like that, or are not bound by that just by existing. For example, someone like Whis doesn´t have to prove time resistance, since he exist outside of the space-time continuums (universes) Regular space-time wouldn´t work and he doesn´t have to prove it. Just one example.

Yeah they can resist all hax they resisted unless that character HAX is above one they resisted

Agree.

Not really that is not NLF that is just exaggeration, what is NLF is to say Saitama showed no limits, he can one punch anyone therefore he beats Galactus or some pressure points HAX that only worked on fodders will work on Galactus who is not higher dimensional being

Correct, but that because of several statements in OPM and not based on abilities. That is not hax the same with pressure points. That isn´t really hax either, that is all based on some natural laws. Even Absolute Zero is no hax, still bypass your durability since it stopped you atoms to the moment where they stopped. No one without explanation why, can resist it. Unless someone never was frozen to AZ, instead of attacking by it. Two different points.

If talking about hax, we talking about something that is already outside of the regular laws.

1.This is not NLF as i siad above, nothing debunked this

2.There was a "time" in it, if there was no time they would be frozen, and Hit did freeze him in time temporarily but he resisted it

3. This was not time skip but literal time stop, meaning time stoped, you dont go higher than that, and he resisted it

And that is exactly why Jiren didn´t transcend time if we going by logic. First of all it was statemend that the void was without time. Based on what we saw of course time exist within (It debunked the statement how the void is build) Those time exist and then we also have someone who can skip time or freezing something in some sort of timecage. Jiren breaking up out of Hit his timecage, but not of the regular time of the void. He transcends only the timecage made by Hit, not a 4-D space-time.

Not really since this was time stop not time skip

Yes, but Hit skips his own time to overcome a short timeframe iirc, while Guldo freezes the entire area of time.

I agree that they have only HAX resistance to thing they showed, and it was not said but it was shown( for Hakai) it erases soul and body from existnace

That is correct, yes.

that ignores conventional durabiltiy but some can resist it thanks to their HAX resistance

Ok, i only don´t get how it ignores conventional durability at that point. Can you explain me that part?

Sure, but agian that here does not matter

Well it matters if we have to understand how a verse handle abilities that overcomes the laws.

No not really, we only saw in DB characters get resistance to some HAX not others, but if soul destroying hAX it in DB does not work aginst them, weaker one in other verse is not going to eaither

Ah, i probably get your point wrong at first. That is of course correct.

But they did, these kinds of thigns do ignore conventional stats as in durability but more power in DB also comes with more HAX resistances which is why more powerful characters tank that HAX

Yes, and they are resistant against that kind of hax, unless the hax of the enemy bypass stats/durability and/or there is a simple explanation for that, why they can resist soul destruction. For example, if there was stated that the spirit of those fighters are as powerful then their physical form, then we know the soul has a far higher resistance against influences.

1.Agian not really even in real it is somwhat comperable sure it can help but still, if your durability is eanugh to no sell Gau 8 bullets and tank shell hiting pressure points is not doing anything eiather, and as i said that is not really case in DB as well, but more about that bellow

2.It attacks evrey part of your body including pressure points with ridiculous force

Ah ok.

Or maybe because Jiren is just that durable given that Hit is an extremely old master assassin that knows the pressure points of alien species as wells, where they hear is that is, but Jiren is just that durable

To durable to be attacked on the pressure points? Hmm not impossible, but you have to be extremly above the durability level in context. The pressure points are still the weakest parts of the body, so if we can say that Jiren has a multi-universal durability, those probably only has a universal durability (Just as extreme reference)

Not really Galan is a prety physical being, he can be hurt or killed physicals if your power is strong enough, so yeah

I talked about Lucifer in the first place. Galactus of course is more physical, and leaves the humanity behind it at that point he became a cosmic entity, but tbf. My knowledge on Marvel isn´t that good like on DC/Vertigo.

Well Galan is consistently very powerful, many argue that he beats Hades and for his seize, sure that is problem but not unsolvable as far as pressure points goes but still some fodders doing that to him sounds silly and NLF

Sure he is, but it mostly depends on the build. I doubt it would work against galactus, since pressure points are made for human or living beings that are part of the universe. Every fiction at this part works difference and since i don´t remember anyone in Marvel that used it, it is questionable if those have even pressure points. But if it comes to verses like Naruto, Dragonball, Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya and Sailor Moon, they have sort of pressure points. Af few of them can only use it against humans, others like Hit from DB and Kenshiro from FotNS have knowledge about different races within their universe, so they probably can affect even not-humans with it.

Well, he did it, there is clearly something if there was literly nothing he would not be able to shake it, you cannot shake anything, yet he did, so he still shaked infinite dimension

Then it is more something that breaks the laws, which is of cours impressive.

Well as I explained below its not dimension sealing, its even better than Mafbua

Yeah, probably but depended on the dimensional sealing it can be "maybe" better then Mafuba. A few SS characters for example can seal you into dimensions outside of time and space, without connection to other worlds.

Well if it can easily be used in 1x1 fight and is better than Mafuba i dont think how matters much really

Because we don´t know what better means at this point. It should be far more effective but we don´t have any knowledge on it, how it works, or what is necessary to activate it.

what I am saying is that they were dead, and naturally, they lost all senses with that yet Vegito was not, he was turned into complete candy but still somehow retained his voice and eyes with no mouth or eyes

Ah ok. Isn´t that more resistance against transmutation which included all the side effects of it? Shaka his Tenbu Horin isn´t Transmutation, it literally steal you every sense (included the 6th sense). If you don´t have the 7th sense, or are thanks to the 8th sense pretty much immortal, then you are lost at this point.

Well if he restains those 5 he can fight just fine, also how is 6 sense same as UI?

With the awakening of the 6th sense you can react instinctive to attacks also have intuition and precognition, even if you are unconscious, or other senses are just deleted. The Saint Seiya verse works with higher senses and every sense granted another advantages and attributes. We have the 6th, the 7th, the 8th and the 9th sense. Shaka mostly has 8, unless we are using the God Cloth, which should grant him probably even the 9th sense, which is the sense of gods.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#63  Edited By Eredin12

@caocao:

Hmm i doubt that ghost can turn back into a living form, or regenerate a body. That where you need Dragonballs to reanimate people, you don´t need if you have the 8th sense, because you aren´t bound by the underworld anymore. You can even free enter the underworld fighting as ghost, while your physical body regenerates from a non-existent level.

Yeah he cannot do that but my point is hakai can erase the soul itself from existence so then you cannot regenerate

I heard/read it often, especially when debating Dragonball against verses with hax, because DB is one example for a verse that use more phyiscs, power and destruction instead of hax. Sure, there are people who resist it, but what i mean is that the term "Hax resistance" doesn´t exist as definition. There are people who said that a verse automatically works that way that you only have to become stronger to break the hax or are getting resistant to immune against it. And that is the part what not is accepted. Maybe i get your post wrong at the beginning, because of course someone who has shown resistance before can resist that kind of hax too under some circumstances. You can even scale that resistance to other people and that is complete ok.

Yeah that is what i saying, they can resist HAX they shown that they can or weaker ones than those

Correct, but that because of several statements in OPM and not based on abilities. That is not hax the same with pressure points. That isn´t really hax either, that is all based on some natural laws. Even Absolute Zero is no hax, still bypass your durability since it stopped you atoms to the moment where they stopped. No one without explanation why, can resist it. Unless someone never was frozen to AZ, instead of attacking by it. Two different points.

If talking about hax, we talking about something that is already outside of the regular laws.

I disagree with that, i consider absolute zero kind of HAX as well, regular durability does not help against it, you need special resistance

And that is exactly why Jiren didn´t transcend time if we going by logic. First of all it was statemend that the void was without time.

Whcih is false as i said, if there was no time at all they would be frozen, but no, they moved normally and Hit froze him in his time stop/ time cage and he still resisted it

Based on what we saw of course time exist within (It debunked the statement how the void is build) Those time exist and then we also have someone who can skip time or freezing something in some sort of timecage. Jiren breaking up out of Hit his timecage, but not of the regular time of the void. He transcends only the timecage made by Hit, not a 4-D space-time.

I dont see a difference, a hit can just manipulate time, and Jiren was frozen in it, time stoped inside that time cage yet he resisted, that shows that he can resist time manipulation just fine, that is my point

Yes, but Hit skips his own time to overcome a short timeframe iirc, while Guldo freezes the entire area of time.

That is time skip but the time cage is a freezing area of time just like Gudlo, those are 2 difirnet powers( time skip and time stop)

Ok, i only don´t get how it ignores conventional durability at that point. Can you explain me that part?

Conventional durabiltiy does not help agisnt somehting that erases your body and soul out of existence at once, you need HAX resistance for it

To durable to be attacked on the pressure points? Hmm not impossible, but you have to be extremly above the durability level in context.

He is much more durable than Hit yes

The pressure points are still the weakest parts of the body, so if we can say that Jiren has a multi-universal durability, those probably only has a universal durability (Just as extreme reference)

Hit is universal+ but yeah

I talked about Lucifer in the first place. Galactus of course is more physical, and leaves the humanity behind it at that point he became a cosmic entity, but tbf. My knowledge on Marvel isn´t that good like on DC/Vertigo.

What do you mena? In power? There are some beings on that level as well, even Franklin Richards made many multiverses with ease, you have people super strong there as well

Sure he is, but it mostly depends on the build. I doubt it would work against galactus, since pressure points are made for human or living beings that are part of the universe. Every fiction at this part works difference and since i don´t remember anyone in Marvel that used it, it is questionable if those have even pressure points.

Well Galan is mostly gigantic humanoid and many marvel characters use pressure points yes

Then it is more something that breaks the laws, which is of cours impressive.

Well Jiren is not some reality warper, he basically just shaked infinite dimension, that scene was clearly put there by Toriyama and the writers to show how strong he is, and its why android 18 was so scared and shocked when she siad entire null realm is shaking, it was put there to hype him up, which menas there where something infinite to shake in that dimension, and he did it, its multi universal feat and it was done by a force of him walking

Yeah, probably but depended on the dimensional sealing it can be "maybe" better then Mafuba. A few SS characters for example can seal you into dimensions outside of time and space, without connection to other worlds.

I mean Zamasu should be able to scape from those with his time ring

Because we don´t know what better means at this point. It should be far more effective but we don´t have any knowledge on it, how it works, or what is necessary to activate it.

yeah i see your point about that, but still, i feel like given that its better by it according to Whis itself and can be used on 1vs1 it can be assumed that it does not need some hard prep which Mafuba does not, he should be able to use it here

Ah ok. Isn´t that more resistance against transmutation which included all the side effects of it? Shaka his Tenbu Horin isn´t Transmutation, it literally steal you every sense (included the 6th sense). If you don´t have the 7th sense, or are thanks to the 8th sense pretty much immortal, then you are lost at this point.

Well yeah it is but by virtue of translation you also lose all senses, and yet he did not, he lost eyes and mouth but still had all his senses, i feel like that is senses erasing resistance as well

With the awakening of the 6th sense you can react instinctive to attacks also have intuition and precognition, even if you are unconscious, or other senses are just deleted. The Saint Seiya verse works with higher senses and every sense granted another advantages and attributes. We have the 6th, the 7th, the 8th and the 9th sense. Shaka mostly has 8, unless we are using the God Cloth, which should grant him probably even the 9th sense, which is the sense of gods.

Fiar eanugh

Avatar image for anime-expert
Anime-expert

14

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#64  Edited By Anime-expert

The 6th sense is fodder level even compared to base Goku: he can fight in the pitch black darkness because he feels the vibrations in the air.

The only reason why Vigro "wins" this fight, is because of the 8th sense. But my gut tells me, that angels should not have any problem with that.

Let's use the wanked version of countless universes,. It is not that impressive: the fight between MUI Goku and normal Jiren destroyed countless (multi-) universes, jlwith punches alone. But KI control and the null realm are the reason why they didn't destroy any universe.

I do think that Shakas hax would not work (not even Shakas special move) vs Whis (one of the GoDs has a similar move and the Angels no sold it) . Honestly, I think if someone is many times stronger than you in DragonBall, you can't do anything. Jiren no sold an ability of HILit, which ignors durabilty.. I mean Wtf.

My gut tells me, that Whis can resist many hax by default and the reason is not power, Whis is an angel, that's why (I have no proof, so let's wait).

Suppressed Whis is already too much.

Avatar image for caocao
CaoCao

6090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 said:

@caocao:

Yeah he cannot do that but my point is hakai can erase the soul itself from existence so then you cannot regenerate

Yes.

Yeah that is what i saying, they can resist HAX they shown that they can or weaker ones than those

Ok, then i misunderstood you at your first point. Sorry for that, haha.

I disagree with that, i consider absolute zero kind of HAX as well, regular durability does not help against it, you need special resistance

Based on the function how AZ (It stopped the movement of your atoms and you become fragile and dies) you indeed need indeed a special resistance. Either you have resistance on atomic manipulation, or you are a being that resist cold all the time. Based on SS they only tanked it because the clothes. Gold Cloth official can tank to AZ, while God Cloth can even tank below that point. In Bastard!! Anthrax was hit by AZ and loses his stability due the side effect, still thanks to her regeneration she came back. There are a lot of alternative ways to bypass AZ, but durability alone isn´t enough. I wouldn´t say it is hax, because it is to natural in comparison to other abilities, but i get your point.

And that is exactly why Jiren didn´t transcend time if we going by logic. First of all it was statemend that the void was without time.

Whcih is false as i said, if there was no time at all they would be frozen, but no, they moved normally and Hit froze him in his time stop/ time cage and he still resisted it

Yes, because time exist outside of it too. When Jiren transcends time, he only transcends Hit his ability/time, but how is he transcending the time within the void?

I dont see a difference, a hit can just manipulate time, and Jiren was frozen in it, time stoped inside that time cage yet he resisted, that shows that he can resist time manipulation just fine, that is my point

Hmm... other question. If Hit manipulates the time, does he manipulates all time or only his opponent and himself? Because that looked more like time abilities in a small area, which make a different to regular time manipulation. A Gold Saint without divine protection came back after he was erased after Mephisto his time reverse that he used against his opponent. That doesn´t mean the Saint is now above time, while he is still finite in terms of speed within the world.

Yes, but Hit skips his own time to overcome a short timeframe iirc, while Guldo freezes the entire area of time.

That is time skip but the time cage is a freezing area of time just like Gudlo, those are 2 difirnet powers( time skip and time stop)

Yes, but like you said: Freezing area of time. Of course they are different but given Guldo his time manipulation Hit, which would be more effective?

Conventional durabiltiy does not help agisnt somehting that erases your body and soul out of existence at once, you need HAX resistance for it

Depended on the Existence Erasure, and even there are different ones (Like the type of EE i linked to you) You can for example resist Hakai, but you can´t resist a higher existence erasure that works on a conceptual level.

What do you mena? In power? There are some beings on that level as well, even Franklin Richards made many multiverses with ease, you have people super strong there as well

I know, but not everyone who can create or destroy multiverses with his power is automatically multiversal in stats.

Well Galan is mostly gigantic humanoid and many marvel characters use pressure points yes

Then it probably doesn´t work against him, or they don´t have the chance to use it against him.

Well Jiren is not some reality warper, he basically just shaked infinite dimension, that scene was clearly put there by Toriyama and the writers to show how strong he is, and its why android 18 was so scared and shocked when she siad entire null realm is shaking, it was put there to hype him up, which menas there where something infinite to shake in that dimension, and he did it, its multi universal feat and it was done by a force of him walking

That wasn´t what i meant with breaking the laws. You can´t shaking something that is infinite, especially an empty void. However, Jiren has shown he can it, which means he break the laws at this point. Of course he isn´t a reality warper, but he can affect the laws to a certain degree. Even Hulk can affect them, one of them destroyed time with a punch haha.

I mean Zamasu should be able to scape from those with his time ring

Hmm.... how does that work? Comes another Zamasu from the future and help him? Because byhimself, he should unable to escape, i mean they have alot of other abilities and power, but they never use it within the bottle. Even a King Piccolo who is a master in magic, telekinesis and stuff, didn´t manage to destroy a bottle.

Also if you overcome Mafuba with timetravel then Shaka would easy escape to, thanks to his 8th sense and the astral form which can travel trough time. But i honestly doubt you can escape Mafuba at this point.

yeah i see your point about that, but still, i feel like given that its better by it according to Whis itself and can be used on 1vs1 it can be assumed that it does not need some hard prep which Mafuba does not, he should be able to use it here

Well, i hope Whis gets more screentime in the future, because those angels needs some more feats to use them in fights.

Well yeah it is but by virtue of translation you also lose all senses, and yet he did not, he lost eyes and mouth but still had all his senses, i feel like that is senses erasing resistance as well

Yeah, i get your point. Really hard to say.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

17000

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@caocao:

Based on the function how AZ (It stopped the movement of your atoms and you become fragile and dies) you indeed need indeed a special resistance. Either you have resistance on atomic manipulation, or you are a being that resist cold all the time. Based on SS they only tanked it because the clothes. Gold Cloth official can tank to AZ, while God Cloth can even tank below that point. In Bastard!! Anthrax was hit by AZ and loses his stability due the side effect, still thanks to her regeneration she came back. There are a lot of alternative ways to bypass AZ, but durability alone isn´t enough

Yeah that is why i think its HAX

. I wouldn´t say it is hax, because it is to natural in comparison to other abilities, but i get your point.

I think even something natural can be HAX really if it ignores durability

Yes, because time exist outside of it too. When Jiren transcends time, he only transcends Hit his ability/time, but how is he transcending the time within the void?

Well i talked about that tbellow

Hmm... other question. If Hit manipulates the time, does he manipulates all time or only his opponent and himself? Because that looked more like time abilities in a small area, which make a different to regular time manipulation. A Gold Saint without divine protection came back after he was erased after Mephisto his time reverse that he used against his opponent. That doesn´t mean the Saint is now above time, while he is still finite in terms of speed within the world.

He basically freezes time in limited space and Jiren resisted that

Depended on the Existence Erasure, and even there are different ones (Like the type of EE i linked to you) You can for example resist Hakai, but you can´t resist a higher existence erasure that works on a conceptual level.

Well Hakai is type 3 but even then durabiltiy alone is not enough

I know, but not everyone who can create or destroy multiverses with his power is automatically multiversal in stats.

I mean yeah there are glass canons but Franklin is not one of them

That wasn´t what i meant with breaking the laws. You can´t shaking something that is infinite, especially an empty void. However, Jiren has shown he can it, which means he break the laws at this point. Of course he isn´t a reality warper, but he can affect the laws to a certain degree. Even Hulk can affect them, one of them destroyed time with a punch haha.

I guess, my point is its multi universal feat, just that

Hmm.... how does that work? Comes another Zamasu from the future and help him? Because byhimself, he should unable to escape, i mean they have alot of other abilities and power, but they never use it within the bottle. Even a King Piccolo who is a master in magic, telekinesis and stuff, didn´t manage to destroy a bottle.

I was talking about your theory that if he sealed him in some dimension, he can use that ring to travel to other dimensions and universes

Also if you overcome Mafuba with timetravel then Shaka would easy escape to, thanks to his 8th sense and the astral form which can travel trough time. But i honestly doubt you can escape Mafuba at this point.

Nah you cannot escape Mafuba with that, i was talking about your theory that he could seal him( Whis) in another dimension

Well, i hope Whis gets more screentime in the future, because those angels needs some more feats to use them in fights.

Yeah that would be good

Avatar image for citgo
citgo

6687

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Whis bites the dust.

Avatar image for sagathelegend
SagaTheLegend

2327

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Shaka solos the verse

Avatar image for seiyasaiyajin
SeiyaSaiyaJin

1276

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Saint Seiya vs Digimon threads would seem like better matches.

Avatar image for caocao
CaoCao

6090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#70  Edited By CaoCao

@eredin12 said:

@caocao:

Yeah that is why i think its HAX

Well, i can agree at some point here, since AZ isn´t that easy to block. Of course you can resist an ice attack which would make AZ on you, since AZ can´t exist somewhere where only a little bit of heat exist, but there are a few abilities in fiction that insta-freezes you to AZ. The problem appeared if something is already cooled down to that level, because that would cause heavy damage on everything with a solid substance by stopping the movements of atoms. (Don´t know how it comes to liquid and gas).

I think even something natural can be HAX really if it ignores durability

Sure, but it isn´t really cheating at this part, when using something complete natural imo. Ok, it isn´t really natural, since it only exist in theory haha.

He basically freezes time in limited space and Jiren resisted that

I get your point, but how does it works with the space-time itself? Jiren was kinda locked in a timecage, but the time around him still worked his way. Can Jiren even resist abilities that are more potent in terms of time then Hit his ones, or time that is based on the entire space-time axis. I doubt it, since it is like Jiren would break trough space-time, when he is still bound by his universe. (When Zeno delete the universe, everyone stop to exist but not the angels for example. That´s why i also think that space-time doesn´t work against them, but against a mortal like Jiren who breaks trough a time hack and not trough regular timeflow?

Well Hakai is type 3 but even then durabiltiy alone is not enough

Type 3 would include space-time. Which would mean of course durability wouldn´t be enough if that would be the case, since space-time is higher in ther conceptual hierarchy then physics. (Of course in fiction that can work different, so can time work in different or higher dimensions too, depended on the verse)

I mean yeah there are glass canons but Franklin is not one of them

Agree.

I guess, my point is its multi universal feat, just that

Yeah, he should be around that level.

I was talking about your theory that if he sealed him in some dimension, he can use that ring to travel to other dimensions and universes

Ah ok. Yes, i think the same way, depended on the dimension. But a dimension that isn´t connected to space and time is different. At least my understanding for the ring that he can only used within space-time and not outside of it.

Nah you cannot escape Mafuba with that, i was talking about your theory that he could seal him( Whis) in another dimension

Ok, then we both agree at this point.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma said:
Loading Video...
Loading Video...

@gelato_exotic: A user already calculated the feat by using the numbers provided by the person who created the theory and how it's expansion would work with the numbers provided by him.

During cosmic inflation, the universe expanded at an exponential rate; going from a billionth of the size of a proton to the size of a marble:

Size of a marble = 0.01 meter

Expansion time of the universe 10-35 seconds

0.01 / 10-35 = 10^33 meters per second (or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters per second)

10^33 meters / 300,000,000 meters = 3.3333333e+24 (or 3,333,333,299,999,999,488,864,416)

End result: The initial expansion of the universe is 3.3333333e+24c (septillions of times ftl).

Shaka outright confirmed the 3 saints(Shura and Saga included) would have no other chance to beat him unless they combine their cosmo and burn it to the max to cast AE, Shura while fatigued and burning his cosmo without reaching to the max made such a feat but that was the only option they had to defeat Shaka, suggesting his speed(Which is related to his cosmo level, which according to Mu, is what decides the winner in a battle) regardless of how much he burned his cosmo in that occasion wouldn't grant the win against Shaka neither would tag him in time.

I just watched the video regarding the expansion of universe. Since, it can't be proven than it can't be used as a speed feat. It still just a theory.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#72  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: It can still be used cuz Shura made pretty clear whose speed he would surpass, the speed of the initial expansion of the universe, and the numbers provided( regardless if the theory of it's expansion is true or not) for the calculation provide said values, Shaka also effortless dealt with Shura and Saga who have no problem in trade attacks with Aiolos between universes and tagged Seiya as well who avoided some of Thanato's attacks.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: No, you can't since the number are not proven. It still just a theory. Even in the video the evidence was conflicting since direct observation did not yield the same results. You can't use number that are not backed up and expect people to accept the calculations.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordragoon: The theory is not proved, the expansion can be perfectly used cuz of the numbers provided for it, even if the theory is not true in SS or the real life, Shura made clear the speed he needed to surpass in order to bypass Roland's precognition and have feats in weaker forms where him and Saga trade attacks against techniques that crossed universes in short time frames without the need of burn his cosmo to any high level either way, and yet was made clear that them alone wouldn't stand a chance against Shaka unless they burned their cosmo to the max and combine their powers to take him down, and who said anyone needs to accept the calculations ? Gelato made a question about the speed of it, I provide the calcs for the expansion theory

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: The whole point is you shouldn't base calcs on theory not proven. Any person can make a theory and have the number fit to make the theory work, but unless it proven it is not legitimate and shouldn't be used.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#76  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: There's zero problems in use theories from scientific communities, by me as they are actually based on something and not some random person who made up a thought and brought nothing to actually back up his statement, for example the big bang theory, if a person confirms his power to be comparable to that of the big bang is common sense to assume it is universal power and depending of the time the author made such a claim the intent is clear, if the theory of big bang being fully denied it wouldn't affect the technique in anyway cuz by the time it was made the author made the statement he had a clear intent in mind, not different from SS's Athena Exclamation which is comparable to the big bang that made the universe, and the manga confirms years later the technique can render the universe. Shura made clear how fast he needed to move, it's not relevant to me if the theory is a fact that happened irl or don't, the intent of his speed is made clear by the statement:''I need to surpass the speed of the initial expansion of the universe, before the speed of light was even born'' so yes, the calc is completely fine to be used cuz he took the speed of said theory into account for his combat speed and the numbers provided by said theory provide the calcs Gelato asked for which would be consistent with his inferior feats of reacting to universes crossing attacks at near range.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: That statment does not give numbers to tell us how fast the universe expansion is going. The initial expansion of the universe has a theory and numbers, but it not proven. Until it is proven, it should not be used in speed feat calculations.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: That statment does not give numbers to tell us how fast the universe expansion is going. The initial expansion of the universe has a theory and numbers, but it not proven. Until it is proven, it should not be used in speed feat calculations.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#79  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: The statement gives the theory event that Shura needs to surpass, the initial expansion of the universe whose numbers if the theory about it's events are true, provide said numbers(The Big Bang is a canon event in the Saint Seiya verse explained in the very first chapter), and already provided the reason why it's useful by providing the manga scale and the intent provided, this logic is legit as, since the big bang is a theory, someone saying that he has a energy whose potency equals that of the big bang it shouldn't be used cuz it's nothing but a theory, why did you even double posted ?

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: Again the point is that initial expansion of the universe cannot be accurately calc since even in real life it is not yet proven to valid yet with the expansion theory.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#81  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: It can for reasons explained, the theory has a calc to be based on regardless if the event happened irl sadly(The big bang is a canonical event in SS confirmed since the first chapter) and since the theory has a number about how fast the universe expanded, the denial of it wouldn't matter too much and the feat would be consistent with Shura and Saga dealing with Aioloso's attacks without the need to burn their cosmo to any massive level to make a miracle, which was Shura's cosmo level when he achieved said speed feat against Roland.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#82  Edited By Lordragoon

@joviolma: I am not denying the big bang event happened in SS. What I am saying is that the initial expansion of universe is unknown in SS and real life since the theory is unproven. The theory should not be used in a calculation. It that simple.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#83  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: In a similar manner to the big bang irl, which makes part of the inflation theory, since the intent is clear by the scale there's nothing preventing one from using the calc as the problem with the theory is that we have no idea if it's an actual event that happened irl due the obviously fact the BB is a cosmological theory in world, unlike SS, repeating ad nauseam wouldn't mean much by now as the reason why the calc is being used and accepted was already provided, Shura and Saga have feats where they clash against attacks that within seconds can cross universal distances(SS happens in a multiverse where infinite possibilities and alternative universes/dimensions exist and even assuming 1 universe of distance would put the feat around the trillions or quadrillions times FTL) whereas he achieved said speed feat by burning his cosmo to a miracle level, which is above the act of a saint simple burning his cosmo, which already gives the author intent about the speed as Shura needed to surpass a theorical event whose theory provides numbers that when calculate provide the results Gelato asked for.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: Again the theory not proven and people should not base calcs on a unproven theory. Unless you have proof that the theory is correct than it shouldn't be used for calcs.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#85  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: It can for reasons already explained seems like you have been in a regular basis ignoring your opponent's assertion and the explanations provided for such, since we know the theory puts the calcs for it at the quintillions/septillions times ftl results, if the theory is bringing something that didn't happened is irrelevant to me, it has a number for said event if it happens in fact, and Shura intented to surpass said theorical event, and since Shura has already alongside Saga results at the trillions/quadrillions times FTL with a level inferior of that required to achieve the initial expansion of the universe + speed, the intent seems clear to me.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: I am not ignoring anything since the theory is unproven. You can't use invalidated numbers to prove a point. It that simple.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#87  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: Sadly I can for reasons provided as the reason it's just a theory it's due the fact the Big Bang cosmological model is just a theory and the inflation(IEOTU) makes part of it, I assume you don't actually have anything to bring other than some ad nauseam while your opponent already provided the scale to sustain her point as to why I will stick with the number provided(Saga alone having feats on the quadrillion times FTL, alongside Shura and their cosmo level is below that of a miracle) by the theory if it's a real life event(It is a canon event in SS, so it's still useful and is calculable) doesn't go simple as that

  • >Theory for a cosmological model
  • >Said cosmological model happens in Saint Seiya and is the canon explanation for the verse existence
  • >Calcs achieved by using the numbers the theory provide for the universe inflation puts the feat at the septillion times FTL
  • >Consistent with the fact Shura achieved such with a miracle level cosmo power and with lower levels alongside Saga reacted to techniques that were crossing universes in short time frames literally a few meters from them.

Unfortunately, ignore those and throw(But it's just a theory) ain't helping by the intent provided in the series.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: You can use whatever number you want, but clearly the calc is not legitimate since it based on unproven theory.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#89  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: It's a canon event in SS so it's irrelevant to me, and since the calcs just put that at these numbers since they are actually official numbers if the theory is actually correct about the existence of said event in the past, and the G+ are nothing but some wanked calcs that make up numbers not provided by any of the scientists, as well following the scale and feats provided by said character where he already reaches quadrillions of times ftl attack speed, I'll still stick with it, anything else I want to say or just ad nauseam ? U have been repeating yourself for a while, while not actually changing anything to me, if you want to show me anything that would actually prove a point, we can do a Seiya vs some DB High/Top tier(By feats, not counting ones like Angels, and non combatents like Zen-Oh) CaV, what u think ?

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: Again, I am not question the the big bang event in SS. My whole point is you can't use a calc based on a theory that not proven and expect people to accept it. I think it best to disregard this feat since there no way to prove it legitimacy.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#91  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: I can cuz neither of the theories are proved irl, conveniently you have been ignoring such as the expansion theory makes part of the big bang cosmological theory assuming how fast the universe expanded if said event happened irl(Which is why it's a theory to being with), we know the big bang and the initial expansion happened in SSverse as Shura confirmed, so that wouldn't matter too much, should I take you being to stubborn and being conventionally ignroing the reasons(Such as Shura already reaching quadrillions of times FTL attack speed and being slower than said feat in verse) as for why the theory calc is fine to be applied and the lack of anything to add as a concession(Seems kinda obviously you have nothing but repetitions which for whatever reason you take almost 20 minutes to come up with or you up to Seiya vs Jiren ?

Always remember:

  • >It's a theory for a cosmological model
  • >Said cosmological model happens in Saint Seiya and is the canon explanation for the verse existence
  • The initial expansion of the universe happened in SS as well given by Shura's statement
  • >Calcs achieved by using the numbers the theory provide for the universe inflation puts the feat at the septillion times FTL
  • >Consistent with the fact Shura achieved such with a miracle level cosmo power and with lower levels alongside Saga reacted to techniques that were crossing universes in short time frames literally a few meters from them.

VS

It's just a theory irl

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: I am not ignoring the expansion theory in SS. You trying to use a real life theory to calc the expansion of SS big bang, but the the theory unproven and you can't provide the proof to make it legit.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#93  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: So is the big bang a unproven theory irl, there's no thing as such expansion theory in SS, unless there's a reason for the SS's expansion being slower or faster than the one calculated irl we shouldn't assume higher or lower values and based on what we know, at which provides the septillions times FTL value, and yes, you have been ignoring all of my claims and the counters provide for your claim, the theory is unproven irl, not the numbers at which it's based with, but is not in SS so the numbers for the theory sadly for you would still stand as the numbers would be useful in there as unlike irl, the event can be proved as a reality in there and outclasses the level of speed Saga and Shura displayed against Aiolos which would put at very least at the quadrillions times ftl tier, any more ad nauseam you have, you have been derailing the thread with the same commentary over and over again, what about my CaV though ?

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#94  Edited By Lordragoon

@joviolma: Than back up your claim and show me how fast is the SS big bang expansion with evidence with out using the RL expansion theory.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#95  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: Simple, it's a statement gave by Shura based on a real life theory, due the fact the big bang is based on a cosmological theory model the numbers for it are part of the theory as we have no factual confirmation the Big bang is a result of our universe creation, in SS in the other hand, the big bang is a canonical event and so is the initial expansion of the universe as stated by Shura making the calcs in there calculated for the theory factual for the verse as the event the calc based itself on actually happened and is not calcs for a theory that could have or not happened in our world as SS has the confirmation for said existence of these events, and canonically speaking is > Saga and Shura's speed feats in the underworld's entry at which both countered universal crossing attacks at point blank which would be at very least quadrillion times faster than light, which makes clear about the author's intent.

You're aware this logic of yours can effortless be thrown against you right ? Since if I ask for evidence the Universe in Dragon Ball is big as our Universe you wouldn't bring such, as the DB universe is not even like our, anime wise it's a colossal galaxy, whereas in the manga canon it's a orb separating the realms. Regardless of the logic, I assume you will keep running away from the question, will you accept the CaV.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: I want evidence to back up your claim for the SS expansion speed. You acknowledged that the expansion theory was un proven in real life, but than you claimed that the SS big bang expansion speed would be equal to the real life expansion calculations. So, prove it.

@joviolma said:

@lordragoon: So is the big bang a unproven theory irl, there's no thing as such expansion theory in SS, unless there's a reason for the SS's expansion being slower or faster than the one calculated irl we shouldn't assume higher or lower values and based on what we know, at which provides the septillions times FTL value, and yes, you have been ignoring all of my claims and the counters provide for your claim, the theory is unproven irl, not the numbers at which it's based with, but is not in SS so the numbers for the theory sadly for you would still stand as the numbers would be useful in there as unlike irl, the event can be proved as a reality in there and outclasses the level of speed Saga and Shura displayed against Aiolos which would put at very least at the quadrillions times ftl tier, any more ad nauseam you have, you have been derailing the thread with the same commentary over and over again, what about my CaV though ?

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#97  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: Already addressed for you, SS happens in a universe where those theories are true sadly for you, so we base ourselves on the results we have by said theories numbers as nothing in SS suggest it to be different(Higher or slower than the calcs it's based on), and why you ignored my claim again ? ''You're aware this logic of yours can effortless be thrown against you right ? Since if I ask for evidence the Universe in Dragon Ball is big as our Universe you wouldn't bring such, as the DB universe is not even like our, anime wise it's a colossal galaxy, whereas in the manga canon it's a orb separating the realms. Regardless of the logic, I assume you will keep running away from the question, will you accept the CaV.'' And as said is a fact the speed feat outclasses that level of Shura and Saga when they countered Aiolos's attacks.

Avatar image for lordragoon
Lordragoon

715

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@joviolma: I want evidence to back up your claim for the SS expansion speed. You acknowledged that the expansion theory was un proven in real life, but than you claimed that the SS big bang expansion speed would be equal to the real life expansion calculations. So, prove it.

@joviolma said:

@lordragoon: So is the big bang a unproven theory irl, there's no thing as such expansion theory in SS, unless there's a reason for the SS's expansion being slower or faster than the one calculated irl we shouldn't assume higher or lower values and based on what we know, at which provides the septillions times FTL value, and yes, you have been ignoring all of my claims and the counters provide for your claim, the theory is unproven irl, not the numbers at which it's based with, but is not in SS so the numbers for the theory sadly for you would still stand as the numbers would be useful in there as unlike irl, the event can be proved as a reality in there and outclasses the level of speed Saga and Shura displayed against Aiolos which would put at very least at the quadrillions times ftl tier, any more ad nauseam you have, you have been derailing the thread with the same commentary over and over again, what about my CaV though ?

You didn't prove the speed of SS big bang with out using the RL expansion speed calc. So, I ask again to provide proof that the SS big bang speed is equal to the real life one like you claimed.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#99  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@lordragoon: I already did, we based ourselves IRL results for these kind of events, which is the reason why we assume in discussions the size of universes including the ones such as DB are big as ours despite not actual evidence in the manga providing such(Based on Sorbet's statement and Zamasu referring to millions of worlds spreaded across the entire universe when he was planning to anhilate everything suggests some small universe for all that matters), the reason I'll stick with the theory is actually pretty simple, it's factually above Shura and Saga's feats against Aiolos, the calc in our world it's for the event if it actually happened IRL but this would depend if the Big Bang actually happened in our world, in SS these events are facts so the calcs for it made IRL will be taken into account as there isn't a doubt about their existence in there. Your point is legit as, well there's no statement in DB that Light travels fast as real life Light, so unless it's proved I can't stick with real life logic and LS in DB is unquantifiable.

Avatar image for joviolma
JOVIOLMA

12056

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0