Virgo Shaka(Saint Seiya) VS Whis (DB)

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deactivated-5ff28288e0b69

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VS

Rules

  • Random Encounter-No Knowledge
  • Hades Arc Shaka
  • Manga/Novel/Canon Feats only
  • Wins by Death, K.O or Incapacitation

  • Both Bloodlusted but IC
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GangOrca

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#2  Edited By GangOrca

I can already sense the flame wars.

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BlazeKing22

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@gangorca: 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

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deactivated-5ff28288e0b69

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SeiyaSaiyaJin

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#5  Edited By SeiyaSaiyaJin

Dude. You know good well how these threads turn out.

OT: Pretty certain everyone knows the outcome of these threads by now. Shaka solos all of DB with just a thought.

Shaka (nd) >>> Shaka (mekai) >> Shaka (arc Hades)>Saga Gemini<= Shaka (12 temples) >>> Shaka (ep.G) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>whis

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JOVIOLMA

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Hades arc Shaka had already achieved the 8th sense and could spam universal attacks against Shijima, plus has several haxes such as Macro Quantum level matter manipulation, Soul BFR, Spirits that inflict death on the opponent, and flames with millions of degrees. Even assuming a scenario where Whis kills him the 8th sense would resurrect him either way so wouldn't matter.

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Lordragoon

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#8  Edited By Lordragoon  Online

@gelato_exotic: Wait what? Whis speed feat is in the anime and there was a very clear time frame where he crossed heaven to get to the sacred world of the kai in 10 seconds. Vados speed feat took two panels in the manga to do the same thing.

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gelato_exotic

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#9  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lordragoon: Whis has better speed feats where he traveled from U7 to u10 in a few panels in the manga iirc (Ill have to check again) and better scaling too considering champa and vados feat was while Champa was purposely suppressing themselves massively to avoid Beerus noticing them.

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Lordragoon

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#10 Lordragoon  Online

@gelato_exotic: What chapter the whis speed were he travel to u7 to u10? The reason I use the whis anime speed feats is that it is very clear and easy to understand. Also there is an exact time frame were we know how much time it took whis to travel the distance.

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gelato_exotic

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#11  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lordragoon: ill try and find it, hold on, its in the black and zamasu arc, and for that Whis speed feat in the anime its probably alot faster than we can quantify right now, the time frame was probably less than 10 seconds since Beerus would have had to find whis and tell him first but we'll never know that for sure, and all we know about the distance right now is bare minimum over 5 galaxies based off Goku not being able to locate Beerus's planet after searching that far, hopefully someday toriyama/toyotaro makes an updated map of how far apart Beerus's nebula and Earth is

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Lordragoon

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#12 Lordragoon  Online

@gelato_exotic: It way more than 5 galaxies. Whis travel from the mortal realm in universe 10 to sacred world of the kai that is universal level distance. Heaven it self is size of the mortal universe. I will also look through the goku black arc again and find the feat. I will add it to my thread in the DB forums regarding Angel speed.

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gelato_exotic

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#13  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lordragoonhere it is https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Dragon-Ball-Super-chapter-18.html, page 112, I remembered wrong it was about a page not a few panels, but still should be faster than the anime feat, and since there is nothing that states it happened an hour later or later in the day or anything of that sort, I think it makes sense to assume it happened in real time correspondent to one page worth of manga panels (few minutes i think, probably less considering the panels are only seconds apart), and the 5 galaxies I was referring is Whis's speed feat from travelling from Beerus planet to Earth in 10 seconds or less, not the u10 feat lol. the U10 could be approximately either 3 universes distance 7 to 10, or way more depending on how you interpret the placement of the universes and the twin universes system Whis depicted earlier in the series.

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Lordragoon

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#14 Lordragoon  Online

@gelato_exotic: It a good feat, but goku having a conversation with vegeta and Bulma means the time frame seems to be a couple minutes rather than seconds.

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gelato_exotic

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@lordragoon: yeah thats true, I guess its fair to say a few minutes as a conservative and probably like 30 seconds as a highball, btw regarding your angel's speed thread, do you have discord? theres some things id like to run by you regarding db characters speed but I dont wanna go off topic anymore in this thread.

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Lordragoon

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#16 Lordragoon  Online
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finalbeta

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I'm not sure how powerful Whis is but he should not be able to rank on universal level, just like Virgo ain't even close. I would give it to Whis overall, also because of his hax abilities.

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CaoCao

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The mainproblem with those angels is still, that they lacks of feats and powers. We don´t know the full potential of those, and Whis is only one of them who has shown a bit of his power. It wouldn´t be fair to put him in a match with someone who is full with tons of abilities and feats.

Speedwise i don´t see Whis keeping up with a Gold Saint (Especially after Shaka blitzing Seiya after the Hyperdimension speed feat), plus statwise in the battle between him and Shijima they created and destroyed countless universes, which puts both far above anything in DBS in terms of capacity if we are using Zeno as comparison and if we consider even the macrocosm scaling.

That is not the only problem, when Shaka can attacks blocking with Khan, creating spatial lock when he trap people in Buddhas hand, also this ability would kill him if Whis has a soul. (That is the main problem putting angels against other characters, we need more understanding what they have, if they are bound by something or not, etc.) and Shaka his most known ability. It is out of question if Whis has senses or not, because he has. The only thing i can imagine is if he has Ultra Instinct that it is comparable to the 6th sense which allowed him to fight even without the other senses, so after all his other senses are shutted down, he probably has a small chance that he can still fight. However, since Shaka also can erase the 6th sense as well, Whis is pretty much fucked at this moment. Atomic destruction is pretty much a standard ability. The same attacking the soul directly. Reactive evolution makes Saints immune to attacks that he has seen twice.

Rikudo Rinne would send Whis directly to one of the realms of death, and makes them to part of Hades laws and reality.

However, Shaka is very difficult to kill, thanks to his 8th sense. He isn´t bound by his body and can fight with his soul or as astral existence (Which also can travel trough time and space) Thanks to the 8th sense, the Gold Saints also have a really high regeneration niveau.

Yes, i give Shaka 8/10, that he wins this here. Whis needs more explanations and showings.

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Eredin12

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#19  Edited By Eredin12  Online

I will say Whis for now, but i can easily be convinced if i see some good feats

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LordSpeedwagon

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Shaka solos DBS:

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Eredin12

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#21  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@caocao: Soul attacks should not work, even Frieza tanked Hakai from Sidra

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and God Toppo that warped world of Void and made countless stars and nebulas

2:35

Same is with atomic destruction, base Goku was unaffected by the black hole(was not hurt, he just had trouble moving in) so strong that not even instant transmission could escae it, while you only need FTL speed to get out of normal ones, even nearly galactic level ones, so it was far stornger than any normal black hole and black holes atomize on a subatomic level

For senses, Vegito got turned into candy and retained all his senses, Whis is far above Buu saga Vegito in an evrey way, that is probably as close as DB characters got to snese shutting Hax and tanked it

For speed, Beerus can cross galaxies in a short amount of time and in DBZ combat speed>>travel speed so there is that( and i am open to see better feats)

Also, even Jiren shaked infinite dimension by force of him walking and anything finite, even the universe or many of them is infinitely smaller than something infinite

Whis is multi universal( able to destroy quite a few DB universes which are much bigger than the normal ones)

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Eredin12

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#22  Edited By Eredin12  Online

Also, universal level attacks are fodder to Whis, base Goku after he absorbed SSG in the base has a universal striking feat where he overpowered and destroyed second universal " super super dense energy orb"( that had eanugh energy to destroy the entire DB universe) with a single punch and tanked its localized explosion then and he was in the epicenter and the second one was even stronger than first one as both Goku and Beerus used more of their power here( that is Beerus did, Goku was stronger as SS then he was as SSG since he absorbed SSG in base and orb was much bigger as well)

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CaoCao

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#23  Edited By CaoCao
@eredin12 said:

@caocao: Soul attacks should not work, even Frieza tanked Hakai from Sidra

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and God Toppot that warped world of Void and made countless stars and nebulas

2:35

Hmm... unless the soul destruction works different in terms of bypassing, but at this point idk so i can´t say for sure if they resist or not. I think we can delete the possibility of soul destruction then at first.

Same is with atomic destruction, base Goku was unaffected by the black hole(was not hurt, he just had trouble moving in) so strong that not even instant transmission could escae it, while you only need FTL speed to get out of normal ones, even nearly galactic level ones, so it was far stornger than any normal black hole and black holes atomize on a subatomic level

Atomic destruction is different then someone who is reduced to a atomic level. Atoms are getting stopped, manipulated and destroyed. It bypasses the conventional Durability, while Hakai can be broken with better Durability or stats. They also can you destroy on sub-atomic/quantum level as well. They also don´t need atomic destruction, if you can attack the pressure points. There is also still his ability to ban the soul of the opponent in one of the 6 realms, or in Buddha´s palm + Tenbu Horin to shut down Whis his senses.

For speed, Beerus can cross galaxies in a short amount of time and in DBZ combat speed>travel speed so there is that( and i am open to see better feats)

Sure, here you got listed a few of speed feats from SS. https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/5knttt/why_saint_seiya_is_probably_faster_than_your/ +

Here are a few more feats (But even here ignore the calcs, they are irrelevant and not accurate)

Ignore the numbers, they can be faster or slower, i don´t give much about Fancalcs. Still, crossing a dimension which includes billions of lights/galaxies within 5 minutes (Happend within the time where the Great Eclipse started)is more impressive then Beerus crossed a few galaxies in a unknown timeframe. Demi-Gods like Thanatos killed people across from other universes, the same when Gold Saints attacks from two different universes within a short moment. Capricorn his attack even surpassed the Big Bang inflation. There are a lot of speedfeats in SS.

Also by common sense, you should attack/hit faster then you can travel. Even a Bronze Saint like Pegasus react to this and a Gold Saint like Leo can do this with attacks.

Also, even Jiren shaked infinite dimension by force of him walking and anything finite, even the universe or many of them is infinitely smaller than something infinite

And how does it help in the fight? Even if we give Jiren the DC and AP advantage, he still will have problems with Shaka his hax. The same appeared to Whis.

Jiren should be multi a universal level as well

So can be Virgo argued, after spamming countless universes. Anyway how is his hax resistance? The mainproblem like i said is that we also don´t know a lot of Whis his attributes. Even if we going with the worst scenario that Virgo can´t manage to hurt him, Whis has shown no way to kill Shaka.

@eredin12 said:

For senses, Vegito got turned into candy and retained all his senses, Whis is far above Buu saga Vegito in an evrey way, that is probably as close as DB characters got to snese shutting Hax and tanked it

Where did he lose his senses? He can still talk, still move, still hear, still see the enemy. There was in no second the evidence of a higher sense, and even they have, Shaka can also shut down the sixth sense too, like i postet in my first post here.

Whis is multi universal( able to destroy quite a few DB universes which are much bigger than the normal ones)

So is Shaka, based on his powers bar minimum.

@caocao said:

The mainproblem with those angels is still, that they lacks of feats and powers. We don´t know the full potential of those, and Whis is only one of them who has shown a bit of his power. It wouldn´t be fair to put him in a match with someone who is full with tons of abilities and feats.

Speedwise i don´t see Whis keeping up with a Gold Saint (Especially after Shaka blitzing Seiya after the Hyperdimension speed feat), plus statwise in the battle between him and Shijima they created and destroyed countless universes, which puts both far above anything in DBS in terms of capacity if we are using Zeno as comparison and if we consider even the macrocosm scaling.

That is not the only problem, when Shaka can attacks blocking with Khan, creating spatial lock when he trap people in Buddhas hand, also this ability would kill him if Whis has a soul. (That is the main problem putting angels against other characters, we need more understanding what they have, if they are bound by something or not, etc.) and Shaka his most known ability. It is out of question if Whis has senses or not, because he has. The only thing i can imagine is if he has Ultra Instinct that it is comparable to the 6th sense which allowed him to fight even without the other senses, so after all his other senses are shutted down, he probably has a small chance that he can still fight. However, since Shaka also can erase the 6th sense as well, Whis is pretty much fucked at this moment. Atomic destruction is pretty much a standard ability. The same attacking the soul directly. Reactive evolution makes Saints immune to attacks that he has seen twice.

Rikudo Rinne would send Whis directly to one of the realms of death, and makes them to part of Hades laws and reality.

However, Shaka is very difficult to kill, thanks to his 8th sense. He isn´t bound by his body and can fight with his soul or as astral existence (Which also can travel trough time and space) Thanks to the 8th sense, the Gold Saints also have a really high regeneration niveau.

Yes, i give Shaka 8/10, that he wins this here. Whis needs more explanations and showings.

Here i posted a few feats and abilities before.

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#25  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@caocao:

Hmm... unless the soul destruction works different in terms of bypassing, but at this point idk so i can´t say for sure if they resist or not. I think we can delete the possibility of soul destruction then at first.

Fair eanugh( deleting it)

Atomic destruction is different then someone who is reduced to a atomic level. Atoms are getting stopped, manipulated and destroyed. It bypasses the conventional Durability, while Hakai can be broken with better Durability or stats. They also can you destroy on sub-atomic/quantum level as well. They also don´t need atomic destruction,

Hakai does the same, it erases you from existence( which is much better than subatomic or quantum level) but in DB they have HAX resistance to it, i think tanking Hakai + black holes should be eanugh to the tank that

Also not sure how i that is much diffident than somone geting reduced to subatomic particles via a black hole, it also manipulates and destroy atoms

if you can attack the pressure points.

But that is then matter of durabiltiy then, i mean pressure points?

There is also still his ability to ban the soul of the opponent in one of the 6 realms, or in Buddha´s palm + Tenbu Horin to shut down Whis his senses.

1.Not sure will that work on somone who already can resist his soul being manipulated( Hakai)?

2.I talked about senses hax above with Vegito example

And how does it help in the fight?

It shows how strong he is and he is fodder to Whis

Even if we give Jiren the DC and AP advantage, he still will have problems with Shaka his hax. The same appeared to Whis.

Well i am talking about Whis and for hax argument well we are debating about it, as i said i am just playing devil's advocate, i a not really sure that Whis wins myself

So can be Virgo argued, after spamming countless universes. Anyway how is his hax resistance? The mainproblem like i said is that we also don´t know a lot of Whis his attributes. Even if we going with the worst scenario that Virgo can´t manage to hurt him, Whis has shown no way to kill Shaka.

Whis said that he has better sealing power than Mafuba, which did this to Zamasu when used by fodder like Trunks so maybe that could work if he cannot put him down?

1:03

"Where did he lose his senses? He can still talk, still move, still hear, still see the enemy. There was in no second the evidence of a higher sense, and even they have, Shaka can also shut down the sixth sense too, like i postet in my first post here."

All that got turned into it lost all their senses but he did not, he retained them all, that is senses shutting resistance

"Here are a few more feats (But even here ignore the calcs, they are irrelevant and not accurate)"

Ignore the numbers, they can be faster or slower, i don´t give much about Fancalcs. Still, crossing a dimension which includes billions of lights/galaxies within 5 minutes (Happend within the time where the Great Eclipse started)is more impressive then Beerus crossed a few galaxies in a unknown timeframe."

Beerus did it in 40 seconds or less if i remember right but that is Beerus, Whis can travel across the universe in seconds as argued above

"Demi-Gods like Thanatos killed people across from other universes, the same when Gold Saints attacks from two different universes within a short moment. Capricorn his attack even surpassed the Big Bang inflation. There are a lot of speedfeats in SS.

Also by common sense, you should attack/hit faster then you can travel. Even a Bronze Saint like Pegasus react to this and a Gold Saint like Leo can do this with attacks.""

Can you explain that litle more( those feats) please,?

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CaoCao

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@eredin12 said:

Also, universal level attacks are fodder to Whis

Dude, i agree at this point. Unlike Beerus, or Goku he isn´t even bound by the universe, probably unbound even by the laws of it. Whis is sure around multi-universal at least, but like i said the same counts for Shaka by creating and destroying countless universes in one battle against another Virgo Saint.

However, power isn´t all in SS. The most problems why they are difficult enemies are speed and hax. Hax in terms of offensive attacks, defense and the problem to kill them. There are probably better Charakter that can Shaka make problems, then Whis for example Infinite Zamasu.

@eredin12 said:

@caocao:

Hmm... unless the soul destruction works different in terms of bypassing, but at this point idk so i can´t say for sure if they resist or not. I think we can delete the possibility of soul destruction then at first.

Not sure what you mean here really?

What i mean is, i don´t remember if the soul destruction from Gold Saints bypassed the stats, like they did if they attack the atoms directly. That means, i can agree that Soul destruction would probably not working or isn´t easy, because they resist it. Unless i will find some evidence that it bypass stats, but i doubt it.

Atomic destruction is different then someone who is reduced to a atomic level. Atoms are getting stopped, manipulated and destroyed. It bypasses the conventional Durability, while Hakai can be broken with better Durability or stats. They also can you destroy on sub-atomic/quantum level as well. They also don´t need atomic destruction,

Hakai does the same, it erases you from existence( which is much better than subatomic or quantufm level) but in DB they have HAX resistance to it, i think tanking Hakai + black holes should be eanugh to the tank that

Of course, Hakai erase you from existance. It destroy your body and soul, yet still doesn´t work against Immortals or enemies with enough power. Hakai is in terms of existence erasure of type 2. Still, it counts to limited hax which means it doesn´t work against everyone. Let them use Hakai against Shaka, and he just escaped from his body with his soul, since he isn´t bound to it thanks to the 8th sense by that. He just can resurrect a new body or fight in his astral plane against his enemies. The Gold Cloth itself can tank the power of a Big Bang (Of course Whis should be more powerful, so if he hit then he should break it) Since we don´t use God Cloth here he has at least a chance to harm Shaka. However, first he has to hit him.

if you can attack the pressure points.

But that is then matter of durabiltiy then, i mean pressure points?

Pressure points in RL and in fiction showed often that it bypass durability, no matter how durable a human is. If you hit someone at those points, he has serious trouble. However, since Whis is not a human, he probably doesn´t have the same constellation, so it is only questionable if it would work. Someone like Kenshiro would be better, since he can attack the pressure points of every existing being (But that guy is far weaker then DB und SS characters, so forget it, lol)

There is also still his ability to ban the soul of the opponent in one of the 6 realms, or in Buddha´s palm + Tenbu Horin to shut down Whis his senses.

1.Not sure will that work on somone who already can resist his soul being manipulated( Hakai)?

Sure, why not? You are not getting destroyed, it is just more a kind of BFR ability with the difference that the soul is getting splitted from the body. Probably soul resistance can protect against it, but since SS characters have some good soul resistance too thanks to the 8th sense....

2.I talked about senses hax above with Vegito example

Don´t know how that would help here tbf.

And how does it help in the fight?

It shows how strong he is and he is fodder to Whis

Sure, but i never doubt Whis wasn´t multi-universal in the first place. I know that Whis is far above the likes of Goku, Beerus and probably above even someone like Jiren. Whis is at least multi-universal.

Even if we give Jiren the DC and AP advantage, he still will have problems with Shaka his hax. The same appeared to Whis.

Well i am talking about Whis and for hax argument well we are debating about it, as i said i am just playing devil's advocate, i a not really sure that Whis wins myself

The problem, is we don´t have seen much about Whis to say what he can resist and what not. That´s what i said in my first post. It wouldn´t be fair, because i am going with the hax argument of course, since hax is one thing in SS that often bypasses superior enemies. There are also the reactive evolution and miracle powers, which increases the power of a Saint and make him resist or immune against attacks.

For example: Whis hit somehow Shaka with Hakai, but since it breaks the Cloth first he has enough time to seperate his soul from his body to resurrect new. Thanks to the reactive evolution it doesn´t work twice againt him, he became immune against it. And that is not just some NLF stuff, it really happens in SS. (There is a Saint called Leo Regulus that even reached a new level of reactive evolution. He doesn´t only get immune after seeing an attack, he also copy the attack 1:1 and can use them more effective then his own enemy. He transcended every ability in TLC that was used against him, even the entire universe to become omnipresent in a fight against Divine Rhadamanthys. Of course that is an extreme example) They even have a reactive powerlevel like Saiyans have if they become stronger and stronger and his abilities increases within fights enormous. The Saints have a lot of passive abilities that allowed him to understand the enemy really fast and to answer the right way.

So can be Virgo argued, after spamming countless universes. Anyway how is his hax resistance? The mainproblem like i said is that we also don´t know a lot of Whis his attributes. Even if we going with the worst scenario that Virgo can´t manage to hurt him, Whis has shown no way to kill Shaka.

Whis said that he has better sealing power than Mafuba, which did this to Zamasu when used by fodder like Trunks so maybe that could work if he cannot put him down?

1:03

Hmm... i don´t know at this point. I would give Whis more credit if i know what his full potency is. Maybe he can blink Shaka, but going from my current knowledge i am going with Shaka. Maybe even Mafuba could work, if they hit Shaka. But Shaka isn´t stupid and spams often with illusion. He also can manipulate the mind.

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Whis stomps

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SeiyaSaiyaJin

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#28  Edited By SeiyaSaiyaJin

Atomic Destruction GG

Tenbu Hōrin GG

Six Incarnations GG

Not to mention even disregarding Shura's feat in assassin, freaking bronze saints are still much faster than the entirety of DBS

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CaoCao

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#29  Edited By CaoCao

@eredin12 said:

@caocao:

All that got turned into it lost all their senses but he did not, he retained them all, that is senses shutting resistance

Don´t see really how that is resistance against shutting the senses, it isn´t even resistance against the transmutation. What you probably means is, that candy can´t have a sense, or did i understand you wrong?
That would be the case if they are turned complete into candy, but it seems that doesn´t happend since they can react offensive.

The first time i saw something above those reguluar senses is when it comes to MUI Goku.

Beerus did it in 40 seconds or less if i remember right but that is Beerus, Whis can travel across the universe in seconds as argued above

Whis should be for sure faster, but does we have a common understanding how fast he should be in approximately?

Can you explain that litle more( those feats) please,?

Ok, in short:

Thanatos was able to kill Seiya his sister to torture him (Both are in Eylsium at this point), while he was sending a death spell to the universe and to the earth where his sister lives in a few moments. (We talk about a distance far bigger then the size of the universe)

Anti-Pope Aiolos spams with attacks against Gemini and Shura which are entire universes away. Aiolos attacked them from an alternative universe, while both Saints are at the entrance of the underworld. (We don´t know how many universes are between point a and b, but since the SS verse is a multiverse, you can count with a lot of it.

Shura his attack is self explained:

No Caption Provided

In the link also you have explanations and even the scans for that. Scans that are missed i can find, if something is unclear.

Respect Thread of Virgo Shaka (The only problem here is that they only use The main manga and some part of Next Dimension, but not Episode G)

Respect Cosmo and Miracles

Different Wikis with Virgo Shaka and his powers. There was also a long debate between Shaka and 3 DB Top Tiers.

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JOVIOLMA

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#30  Edited By JOVIOLMA

Shaka still one shots with SPOT, Hellfire flames, Death Manipulation or Agyo.

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AnimeFreak1

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The guy who can create, destroy and re-create an Infinite Multiverse in one clash by just opening his eyes

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GhostWarren

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Raven_godKing

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I don’t understand why people keep DBS angels in matchups when we haven’t seen what they can really do, aside from KO a hakaishin and warp time. The one we say was Merus who still wasn’t serious.

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gelato_exotic

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#34  Edited By gelato_exotic

I believe it was next dimension chapter 58 or something like that if someone wants to check and read it for themselves (dont remember I dropped next dimension a while back), but you guys are taking the countless universes being created and destroyed way out of context. What happened was Virgo Shijima engages in a fight with Shaka (btw Shijima>>>Shaka), and starts off with an attack called Ungyo which symbolizes the end of the universe, and Shaka counters with Agyo, an attack that symbolizes the birth of a universe, and they spam these attacks at the peak of their cosmo, resulting a universe constantly being destroyed, created, destroyed, which is what results in the countless universes thing (you could even compare it to the athena exclamation, how its power rises exponentially when it clashes with another). Shaka and Shijima even explain about it themselves after this happens, about how they'll stuck in an "eternal cycle of reincarnation". It is definentely a universal feat at least (i remember shun even mentioning how the universe was going to be destroyed when Shijima used Ungyo, I would post scans but the site i used for ND went down, but I'm confident this was ND chapter 58), but not some infinite multiversal feat lol in itself for Shijima or Shaka, and something Shaka cant just replicate.

Shaka still has multiple win cons via Tenbu Horin which Whis doesn't have an answer to yet unless you scaled resistance from Vegito, but then he still can BFR Whis's soul to one of Hade's realms, and for whis's win cons he can also just overpower him with more AP since win con. is KO/Death/incap 8th sense resurrection isn't factored in here, nullify his powers like Merus recently showed angels can, seal him or dimension dump him in his staff, so it all depends on who you argue is faster and will attack first that wins.

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GhostWarren

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TheOneAndOnly89

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Shaka negs GG

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Eredin12

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#39  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@caocao:

Dude, i agree at this point. Unlike Beerus, or Goku he isn´t even bound by the universe, probably unbound even by the laws of it. Whis is sure around multi-universal at least, but like i said the same counts for Shaka by creating and destroying countless universes in one battle against another Virgo Saint.

Universal is also fodder to Beerus as i siad that is BoG Goku level but yeah we agree here

However, power isn´t all in SS. The most problems why they are difficult enemies are speed and hax. Hax in terms of offensive attacks, defense and the problem to kill them. There are probably better Charakter that can Shaka make problems, then Whis for example Infinite Zamasu.

That is what i disagree with so we have debate

What i mean is, i don´t remember if the soul destruction from Gold Saints bypassed the stats, like they did if they attack the atoms directly. That means, i can agree that Soul destruction would probably not working or isn´t easy, because they resist it. Unless i will find some evidence that it bypass stats, but i doubt it.

Okay so we agree about this point then, we should move on

Of course, Hakai erase you from existance. It destroy your body and soul, yet still doesn´t work against Immortals or enemies with enough power.

False Beerus erased immortal ghost, who cannot die since he is already dead, so he is completely immortal, it only does not work with people that have resistance to it, but that is hax resistance, it DB enaugh more power comes with more hax resistances

No Caption Provided

Hakai is in terms of existence erasure of type 2. Still, it counts to limited hax which means it doesn´t work against everyone.

Its more like type 3 since Beerus was sure it would erase Zamasu in the future but time ring and Omega Shenron wish saved him if i remember right but normally it would erase him, and no hax works on everyone, that would be NLF

Let them use Hakai against Shaka, and he just escaped from his body with his soul, since he isn´t bound to it thanks to the 8th sense by that. He just can resurrect a new body or fight in his astral plane against his enemies.

Hakai erases soul completely but what i am talking about is that by tanking Hakai he should easily tank atomizing

The Gold Cloth itself can tank the power of a Big Bang (Of course Whis should be more powerful, so if he hit then he should break it) Since we don´t use God Cloth here he has at least a chance to harm Shaka. However, first he has to hit him.

that is nothing to Whis, BoG Goku can easily tank big bang, in fact, he tanked stronger attacks as DB universe is much bigger than the normal one( 5+ times), and he tanked localized explosion of attack taht would destroy it all

Pressure points in RL and in fiction showed often that it bypass durability, no matter how durable a human is.

That is good old NLF, will it work on Lucifer Morningstar? Can Kenshiro beat Galactus? As i said classic good old NLF, durability counts against pressure points

If you hit someone at those points, he has serious trouble. However, since Whis is not a human, he probably doesn´t have the same constellation, so it is only questionable if it would work. Someone like Kenshiro would be better, since he can attack the pressure points of every existing being (But that guy is far weaker then DB und SS characters, so forget it, lol)

So we agree that pressure points will not work then?

Sure, why not? You are not getting destroyed, it is just more a kind of BFR ability with the difference that the soul is getting splitted from the body. Probably soul resistance can protect against it, but since SS characters have some good soul resistance too thanks to the 8th sense....

But agian if Whis already has extreme soul resistance to his soul being manipulated at all i dont think it will work unless you can show me their soul attacks being above God Toppos Hakai and even then Frieza is nothing compared to Whis

Sure, but i never doubt Whis wasn´t multi-universal in the first place. I know that Whis is far above the likes of Goku, Beerus and probably above even someone like Jiren. Whis is at least multi-universal.

Yeah but what i argue is that Jirens feat is above the one you mentioned since dimension was infinite

The problem, is we don´t have seen much about Whis to say what he can resist and what not. That´s what i said in my first post. It wouldn´t be fair, because i am going with the hax argument of course, since hax is one thing in SS that often bypasses superior enemies. There are also the reactive evolution and miracle powers, which increases the power of a Saint and make him resist or immune against attacks.

Yes but in DB hax resistance scaels just like power, so we have much wekaer characters reisting it which means Whis can as well which is what i am using

For example: Whis hit somehow Shaka with Hakai, but since it breaks the Cloth first he has enough time to seperate his soul from his body to resurrect new. Thanks to the reactive evolution it doesn´t work twice againt him, he became immune against it. And that is not just some NLF stuff, it really happens in SS. (There is a Saint called Leo Regulus that even reached a new level of reactive evolution. He doesn´t only get immune after seeing an attack, he also copy the attack 1:1 and can use them more effective then his own enemy. He transcended every ability in TLC that was used against him, even the entire universe to become omnipresent in a fight against Divine Rhadamanthys. Of course that is an extreme example) They even have a reactive powerlevel like Saiyans have if they become stronger and stronger and his abilities increases within fights enormous. The Saints have a lot of passive abilities that allowed him to understand the enemy really fast and to answer the right way.

But he can just seal him

hmm... i don´t know at this point. I would give Whis more credit if i know what his full potency is. Maybe he can blink Shaka, but going from my current knowledge i am going with Shaka.

Which is why we have a debate, i get that, so agian i dont see why this point is relevant, maybe Saitama can beat Galactus but we dont go by maybe but by current knowledge we have

Maybe even Mafuba could work, if they hit Shaka. But Shaka isn´t stupid and spams often with illusion. He also can manipulate the mind.

fodders to Whis have plantary TP resistance both from Babidi and from superhuman water, dont see illusions working, so i sitll dont see why Whis cannot just seal him?

Don´t see really how that is resistance against shutting the senses, it isn´t even resistance against the transmutation. What you probably means is, that candy can´t have a sense, or did i understand you wrong?

He turns people into candy and when he does they lose all their senses and mind, yet Vegito restained all his senses and his mind + powers, that is how its resistance against it

That would be the case if they are turned complete into candy, but it seems that doesn´t happend since they can react offensive.

He does turn it completely but Vegito had resistance to it and his senses + mind being erased and he retained it all

Whis should be for sure faster, but does we have a common understanding how fast he should be in approximately?

Well he can travel across universes in a short amount of tiem as gelato_exotic siad and even to difirnet universes

Thanatos was able to kill Seiya his sister to torture him (Both are in Eylsium at this point), while he was sending a death spell to the universe and to the earth where his sister lives in a few moments. (We talk about a distance far bigger then the size of the universe)

Anti-Pope Aiolos spams with attacks against Gemini and Shura which are entire universes away. Aiolos attacked them from an alternative universe, while both Saints are at the entrance of the underworld. (We don´t know how many universes are between point a and b, but since the SS verse is a multiverse, you can count with a lot of it.Shura his attack is self explained:

Fair eanugh then, but Whis when he really needs can travel to other universes in a short amount of time as well and as i siad i am not sure can they put him down

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benoma

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You guys are forgetting angels can only be killed by erasing them from existence completely.

This could be stalemate unless whis can hakai or if K.O is win condition

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JOVIOLMA

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#42  Edited By JOVIOLMA

Whis gets erased once he makes use of his full power due to his angel nature, and considering the later's superiority to Shura and Saga''s speed, blitz Whis wouldn't be a problem, specially when the ability to create miracles and reactive evolution the saints possess would be a huge advantage and grant the win anyway, add this with techniques such as Death Manipulation, Resurrection, Memory Manipulation, Hellfire attacks and teleportation.

Someone would like a Jiren vs Seiya CaV ?

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gelato_exotic

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#43  Edited By gelato_exotic

@caocao: Yo, I was wondering bro whats your thoughts on the speed of Shura's excalibur feat? Honestly I have no idea and I'm not no scientist or mathmetician so idk what to think, but I've seen many, many detailed blogs on it especially on G+ with, some placing it Duodecillion x FTL, others having septillions ftl (I've seen this one alot, but this could very well be a huge downplay from the other blogs ive seen about it, or possibly a highball too), quintillions FTL, barely FTL and even not FTL , and most calling it unquantifiable (although I think author intent in the scene made it clear it was supposed to be FTL), and everybody interpreting the scientific theory different and using different scientific blogs about the big bang expansion to back their calcs, its so confusing lol.

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JOVIOLMA

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#44  Edited By JOVIOLMA
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@gelato_exotic: A user already calculated the feat by using the numbers provided by the person who created the theory and how it's expansion would work with the numbers provided by him.

During cosmic inflation, the universe expanded at an exponential rate; going from a billionth of the size of a proton to the size of a marble:

Size of a marble = 0.01 meter

Expansion time of the universe 10-35 seconds

0.01 / 10-35 = 10^33 meters per second (or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters per second)

10^33 meters / 300,000,000 meters = 3.3333333e+24 (or 3,333,333,299,999,999,488,864,416)

End result: The initial expansion of the universe is 3.3333333e+24c (septillions of times ftl).

Shaka outright confirmed the 3 saints(Shura and Saga included) would have no other chance to beat him unless they combine their cosmo and burn it to the max to cast AE, Shura while fatigued and burning his cosmo without reaching to the max made such a feat but that was the only option they had to defeat Shaka, suggesting his speed(Which is related to his cosmo level, which according to Mu, is what decides the winner in a battle) regardless of how much he burned his cosmo in that occasion wouldn't grant the win against Shaka neither would tag him in time.

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CaoCao

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@eredin12

Universal is also fodder to Beerus as i siad that is BoG Goku level but yeah we agree here

Probably.

That is what i disagree with so we have debate

You disagree with Infinite Zamasu has a better chance? I wasn´t going with the point that Whis should be far more powerful then Zamasu, i was going with the point that Virgo can´t touch him, since he is one with the space-time continuum. So Virgo at this point has an enemy that he can´t beat with his own attacks, unless he bust the universe, which i doubt he will do. At some points a weaker enemy has better chances then a stronger enemy, if the abilities are better.

False Beerus erased immortal ghost, it only does not work with people that have resistance to it, but that is hax resistance, it DB enaugh more power comes with more hax reistnaces

It is different to erase a ghost or an immortal. Beerus didn´t say Hakai can´t erase immortals just for the lolz, he said based on the immortal Zamasu. They are different types of immortality and Zamasu his kind of immortality is superior to that one of a ghost. Goku even tried in the manga to erase Zamasu but he regenerate his half body which shouldn´t happend if Hakai „erased“ a part of a body.

Its more like type 3 since Beeurs was sure it would erase Zamasu in future but time ring and Shenron wish saved him if i remember right and o hax works on everyone, that would be NLF

Type 3 is more that kind of ability Zeno has used, but i don´t remember Beerus erasing Zamasu along time and space. Beerus erased only that one Zamasu, before his wish and before stealing the time ring.

Hax works on everyone isn´t automatically NLF. That´s why the term of hax exist. It is a cheating tool that allowed you to ignore the laws, for example ignoring the fact that someone is 1000 times more powerful and still affecting the enemy. You have only hax resistance against things that was shown. Goku even wasn´t immune against inferior things like poison or a virus for example. Those are things where you can more resist, then against hax.

There exist of course hax which is limited, like Hakai for example. But there exist also hax which like Guldo his timestop which freezes everyone in that moment, even superior members of his team. Mafuba can seal people which are far superior to Roshi in the ToP. In Saint Seiya most hax ignored the stats of his opponent, the only reason why it not works are either because the cloth, which is explained, or because the fight against a god, which auto deflect every non-divine attack by statements and feats.

Hakai erases soul completely but what i am talking about is that by tanking Hakai he should easily tank atomizing

Depended on if Hakai bypass stats or not. We have more then one example that it doesn´t bypass stats. Against Goku, against Freezer, against Zamasu, and probably i forget the one or other guy.

that is nothing to Whis, BoG Goku can tank big bang, in fact he tanked stronger attacks as DB universe is much bigger than normal one, so yeah

I think the same, yeah. Whis should tank Big Bang attacks without much trouble.

That is NLF, will it work on Lucifer Morningstar? That is classic good old NLF durability counts aginst pressure points

That´s how pressure points are working, because you can´t train that bodyparts. There is also even proof in Dragonball if it comes to Hit, which attacked your pressure points as well. Lucifer Morningstar isn´t really a human being, or other living species. Of course it wouldn´t work against him, like every attack from Saint Seiya or Dragonball wouldn´t work, since his true self exist in a different reality.

So we agree that pressure points will not work then?

Only, because i doubt that Shaka has knowledge about aliens, or angels. They may have the same bodyparts, but that doesn´t mean they have the same pressure points.

But agian if Whis already has extreme soul resistance to his soul being manipulated at all i dont think it will work unless you can show me their soul attacks being above God Toppos Hakai and even then Frieza is nothing compared to Whis

That is what i said. Since i doubt that soul destruction in SS ignores stats, i doubt it will work on that point. If it ignores stats, soul resistance would pretty much useless, unless you don´t have a soul.

Yeah but what i argue is that Jirens feat is above the one you mentioned since dimension was infinite

Yeah, but it doesn´t destroyed the dimension, it just shocked the void. That is a bit different, unless we are thinking Jiren is more powerful then Zeno.

Yes but in DB hax resistance scaels just like power, so we have much wekaer characters reisting it which means Whis can as well which is what i am using

I know what you mean, but instead of hax, they failed often in other far inferior terms, like i brought up above. Someone who resist hax because better stats, should no sell every poison, virus, or other influence. Hax is superior to most kind of natural influence.

There exist two kind of hax: Hax that ignores the stats and hax that is limited. Unlimited hax works well against far superior enemies, unless we talking about some abstract beings or other higherdimensional stuff, because there are only a hand full of hax in fiction that ignores even dimensional hierarchies. I mean, even Roshi his Mafuba works against people who are one of the most powerful beings in their universes. And i doubt Roshi reached a level comparable to the current Z group. There are some other examples as well, where the hax has no limits, i mean Boo even turned Gogeta or Vegeto in a bonbon. Of course they can fight as bonbon, but they didn´t resist the transmutation at the first place.

Dragonball characters can resist that kind of hax that they have shown where they can resist it.

There is also another problem, that they don´t even try to dodge hax if they are in character, which is kinda crazy in crossbattles against people with hax.

I am not really sure how this is relvent

It is relevant, because reactive evolution make Hakai for example complete useless against Shaka. It is a basic ability that allowed the opponent to become immune against the attacks of the enemy. The reactive powerlevel is relevant, because in the battle they become stronger and stronger. The miracles allowed the Saint to surpass even the level of his opponent, at least theoretically. It happens often in SS, but at this point i can agreed that is kinda NLF and works only on the highest powerlevel of the SS of Saint Seiya, but not higher. Which means in the worst case the Saint can use miracle to reached a level comparable to Chronos.

Which is why we have a debate, i get that, so agian i dont see why this point is relevant, maybe Saitama can beat Galactus but we dont go by maybe but by current knowledge we have

The problem with Saitama and Galactus is, that they even have more feats, but tbh: I doubt Saitama can even beat Whis, even if that guy is mostly featless and hasn´t shown much of his power and abilities.

Agian fodders to Whis have plantary TP resistance both from Babidi and from superhuman water, dont see illusions working, so i sitll dont see why Whis cannot just seal him?

Because we don´t know how his sealing ability looks like. If he is just trapped into another dimension, Shaka can travel as astral existence trough space and time. We also don´t know if that is an instant ability, or does it need time. Even that Mafuba needs time for prep and someone like Shaka isn´t stupid. He can just block it with Khan or outspeed it.

Based on Whis his sealing ability i don´t know, since we don´t know how it works. Do you understand now how the debate at this point isn´t usefull. We both can just speculate about his abilities.

He turns people into candy and when he does they lose all their senses and mind, yet Vegito restained all his senses and his mind + powers, that is how its resistance against it

Oh ok. Was that even stated, that they lose their senses? I don´t remember that arc tbh, maybe i should rewatch/reread it. If we going with Tenbu Horin, you don´t get turned into candy, you will just lose with every word that Shaka is used one of your senses. Also he can even shut down the 6th sense.

He does turn it completely but Vegito had resistance to it and his senses + mind being erased and he retained it all

I thought he just overcome the state with his power.

Well he can travel across universes in a short amount of tiem as gelato_exoticsiad and even to difirnet universes

As someone who isn´t bound by the universe it makes sense that he can travel between the universes. But does he have to use his scepter, or did he just travel without it?

Fair eanugh then, but Whis when he really needs can travel to other universes in short amount of time as well and as i siad i am not sure can they put him down

Hmm... that is really hard then to say to find the speed at this point. At least Whis should be able to be far faster then everyone in the DB universes.

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CaoCao

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#46  Edited By CaoCao
@gelato_exotic said:

@caocao: Yo, I was wondering bro whats your thoughts on the speed of Shura's excalibur feat? Honestly I have no idea and I'm not no scientist or mathmetician so idk what to think, but I've seen many, many detailed blogs on it especially on G+ with, some placing it Duodecillion x FTL, others having septillions ftl (I've seen this one alot, but this could very well be a huge downplay from the other blogs ive seen about it, or possibly a highball too), quintillions FTL, barely FTL and even not FTL , and most calling it unquantifiable (although I think author intent in the scene made it clear it was supposed to be FTL), and everybody interpreting the scientific theory different and using different scientific blogs about the big bang expansion to back their calcs, its so confusing lol.

Dude, i don´t know. I am not a fan of calcs, since they are too inaccurate imo. That´s why i don´t accept septillions or higher Saint Seiya either. I see feats when they can cross galaxies in a short timeframe or crossing universes or lightyears like nothing. Or attacking 100 mio times in one second. That is far more meaningful imo. Overcome the speed of the Big Bang is really impressive, but i don´t know where i should put it in numbers based on fancalcs. Saint Seiya is easy MFTL+ but i can´t give an exact number. Dragonball is also MFTL+ too, but i can´t give an exact number. What i do is compare the speedfeats and look which of them are more impressive imo. I try to understand those fancalcs on Google+, Vsbattles and Narutoforums, but they often wank or downplay the shit out of a verse, so i don´t like to use it.

There is also another problem, like you already said: Everybode interpreting the scientific theory different and using different scientific blogs. Of course there is not only one theory in terms of speed. They can be probably even faster then the septillion, or slower. But those debates are often headaches. I use my own way to understand the speed, and that is very simple. Using feats and statements, ignoring calcs that are going too far lol. Of course i don´t have a problems with calcs if we have all relevant informations to make one.

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gelato_exotic

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@joviolma: I'm aware of that one but thats just the calc from one theory Im pretty sure and theres many out there, but im saying it could be possibly far faster then that too from other scientific blogs and calcs I've seen which had it at duodecillions FTl, I wish i saved the blog ugh but g+ got taken down, everybody was using different scientific theories to calc it and there were a few far faster than septillions, seems really controversial.

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JOVIOLMA

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#48  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@gelato_exotic: The lowest one puts it at it's quintillion, but I'm not aware of any calc putting at duodecillions times FTL, I would be more comfortable to use the official numbers about the expansion the scientist provide.

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gelato_exotic

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@caocao: agreed, some of the fan calcs for both saint seiya and Dragon ball rely on way too many assumptions and headcanon and different interprations of science. Btw about google+, if you were there when DB vs Saint seiya was hot on it the fan calcs on there were insane man 😭 I was seeing shit like septillions FTL Buu saga Goku, quindecillon FTL gold cloth saints, it was insane. I dont agree or disagree with the calcs myself but like holy shit bruh. I agree with you though, that these fan calcs are sketchy and its better to go by fully quantifable speed feats and compare them instead of stamping some controversial number on everything.

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CaoCao

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@caocao: agreed, some of the fan calcs for both saint seiya and Dragon ball rely on way too many assumptions and headcanon and different interprations of science. Btw about google+, if you were there when DB vs Saint seiya was hot on it the fan calcs on there were insane man 😭 I was seeing shit like septillions FTL Buu saga Goku, quindecillon FTL gold cloth saints, it was insane. I dont agree or disagree with the calcs myself but like holy shit bruh. I agree with you though, that these fan calcs are sketchy and its better to go by fully quantifable speed feats and compare them instead of stamping some controversial number on everything.

I mean. I can accept fancalcs, if they are allowed for crossbattle debates. But if we going by that i doubt there are better official calcs for DB, then for SS. I mean, i saw here one year ago on vine somewhere a calc with 50k x LS Bleach characters.

No Caption Provided

All i can say is that Saint Seiya is easy MFTL+ and someone like Regulus is even omnipresent due his nature to become one with the universe. Gods from SS can cross outside of the space-time continuum, so speed is irrelevant for them outside of that and some other shit that can be interpreted. Saint Seiya gives a lot free space interpretation.

I also don´t know where Septillions FTL Buu is coming from but lmao. I can agree that DBZ reached lightspeed, but nowhere they are already MFTL. If it comes to super and ignoring the Lightspeed downplay from the GoD on Dyspo, they should reach easy MFTL+ as well, but the best feats are coming from what i remember from the likes of Whis travelling trough galaxies. The problem is, you can´t scale someone from that, since used his scepter to travel and not his own speed from what i remember.