Viper vs Mako

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cocacolaman

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#1  Edited By cocacolaman  Moderator
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Viper

Mako

  • Win by any means
  • Basic knowledge
  • In character
  • Start 10 meters apart
  • Fight in the Southern Water Tribe
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eslay03

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I‘m not a Mako stan, but the lowballing has been stoic recently.

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viking1205

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This already happened and Mako lost

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cocacolaman

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#5 cocacolaman  Moderator
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eslay03

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eslay03

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This already happened and Mako lost

Doth’ characters not improveth over the course of seriesth?

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cocacolaman

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#8 cocacolaman  Moderator

@eslay03 said:

This already happened and Mako lost

Doth’ characters not improveth over the course of seriesth?

Don't. ANTHP will explain to you how Mako actually got worse.

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eslay03

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@cocacolaman: I need to know exactly where ANTHP and Viking place Mako.

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cocacolaman

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#10 cocacolaman  Moderator

@eslay03: I've got screenshots, check PMs in a sec

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viking1205

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@eslay03: Characters obviously can improve, but is there something that suggests Mako improved? As far as his bending in isolation is concerned, his best showing came in Book 1, both lightning generation and firebending -- his blasts in Endgame, after Amon's identity was revealed -- or him stopping an explosion in Book 2. So, I don't think he improved much as a bender across the show and his combative record never really improved either. He lost to Lieutanant in Book 1, Viper, dark spirit, twins, Unalaq all beat him in Book 2, the last two beat him with Bolin's help, Ming Hua annihilated him in Book 3, a metalbending soldier of Kuvira's troop beat him in Book 4, Korra took him down in one hit in comics with Bolin beside him. His wins were against Dai Li in a 3v3 after some amount of struggle, killing Ming Hua with context or lastly one metalbending soldier in the colossus. I don't really see Mako's supposed improvement, to be honest, atleast not to the relevant degree, unless I'm forgetting something.

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MinhCake

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I'd personally give it to Mako, but the location lets Viper put up a good fight.

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eslay03

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@eslay03: Characters obviously can improve, but is there something that suggests Mako improved? As far as his bending in isolation is concerned, his best showing came in Book 1, both lightning generation and firebending -- his blasts in Endgame, after Amon's identity was revealed -- or him stopping an explosion in Book 2. So, I don't think he improved much as a bender across the show and his combative record never really improved either. He lost to Lieutanant in Book 1, Viper, dark spirit, twins, Unalaq all beat him in Book 2, the last two beat him with Bolin's help, Ming Hua annihilated him in Book 3, a metalbending soldier of Kuvira's troop beat him in Book 4, Korra took him down in one hit in comics with Bolin beside him. His wins were against Dai Li in a 3v3 after some amount of struggle, killing Ming Hua with context or lastly one metalbending soldier in the colossus. I don't really see Mako's supposed improvement, to be honest, atleast not to the relevant degree, unless I'm forgetting something.

Personally, I find his bouts with Ming Hua to be the best sign of improvement. Of course, he never beat her without circumstantial assistance, but regardless, he held his own for extended periods of time multiple times in the season. Kya gets carried into the sunset for her performance against Ming Hua, and while I wouldn’t say that they both competed with Ming Hua to the same degree, it’s interesting to see one performance praised and others ignored. Plus, if I’m not mistaken, both you and ANTHP hold Ming Hua notably higher than Unalaq despite Mako preforming better against Ming Hua than against Unalaq. I understand that transitive property doesn’t always work in Avatar, but in this case, I don’t see why it wouldn’t. Lastly, Viper isn‘t going to last more than a few seconds against Ming Hua. Furthermore, he isn’t going to preform any better than Mako did in all of his low showings.

After Book 2, the only low showing Mako has is against the metalbending soldier on the train. Even then, he wasn’t even facing the soldier when he was attacked. Losing to the Avatar is nothing to slouch about. Likewise, beating the dai li 2v3* and beating a metalbending soldier in the colossus is more impressive than anything Mako did in the first two seasons as far as scaling goes.

  • *They did not need Kai’s help to take out the last agent.
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anthp2000

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#16  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@eslay03:

I don't believe Mako got any better between the Books. I think he got better ever since he lost to a single nameless chi blocker, gaining combative experience in the process, but even then, that barely showed. He proceeded to lose to Amon's lieutenant, had to surprise attack one of Lin's officers to incapacitate him, lost to Unalaq, lost to Eska and Desna, et cetera. This was all with Bolin's help. Mako never defeated a single Dai Li agent himself, it was Bolin using environmental earthbending who took two of them down, then Kai blasted the third one when he was holding onto Jinora. The agents had no difficulty handling Mako's bending at all. One on one, Mako was very clearly losing to Viper in The Sting, he lost to a nameless metalbender, and you're wrong, he was very clearly initiating an attack against that exact guy but wasn't fast enough, and he was scoffed at by Mike and Bryan for his futile attempt to take on Zaheer. Beating a single other nameless metalbender while prepared and taking a beating isn't impressive to me. What does it matter that they were inside the Colossus? That guy never used anything beyond his own armor in the fight. And, yes, losing to the Avatar is not bad, but he and Bolin went down just as easily as Viper and his Triple Threats did. Just, nothing. So what is there to separate?

Mako got chased around by Ming Hua in the only real, fair fight they had, in Misty Palms. The reason I praise Kya's performance against her is that she actually accomplished something, landed a clean strike, and even pushed Ming Hua to her best tools. What Mako did in The Stakeout is what Kya was doing throughout the second phase of her encounter with Ming Hua. Just, running and trying to hold her off defensively. Their performances are not comparable, so I would hardly call not equating them interesting. Beyond that, they traded two hits at long range in the Temple, and Mako managed to take her out after she'd been smacked by the Avatar State, was left with no water, and then sat inside a lake not knowing he can lightning bend. Lightning Bolt Zolt could replicate that scene too. The problem starts when we place characters like Mako, who are talented, but clearly undisciplined, benders, on a pedestal simply because they have tons of screen time and a deuteragonist role. His consistent track record throughout the entirety of the show involves competition with cannon fodder, wether that's losing, drawing, or barely winning. Viper was winning last time this fight happened, and Mako has not been portrayed as any better moving forward. Getting one occasional lucky -- and I mean that in every sense of the word given the context -- shot on Amon and Ming Hua doesn't change how I view his level.

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Tektonic

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#17  Edited By Tektonic

Mako's one of those characters who's had a very tumultuous battle record.

His absolute best showing was against Ming Hua even if she was restricted. He basically peaked with that fight in the catacombs. His performances in every other season leave a lot to be desired. Which is especially unfortunate because the fourth season and the comics are his most recent showings, and they've been pretty poor.

Mako's fight with Viper is especially embarrassing because he lost to someone who BOS Korra one shot.

That being said even though Unalaq bested him constantly, and his only win was against a disadvantaged Ming Hua, with his small exchange with Ghazan, contain feats in those battles in terms of potency or techniques(however few) that are enough to secure a win against Viper.

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MeatballNomad

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Viper beating Mako was an outlier.

Viper might beat B1 or B2 Mako, he's not beating Book 4 or Comics Mako.

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Stratospher

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@anthp2000:

The level of lowballing from you is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

He proceeded to lose to Amon's lieutenant

Even Korra struggled against him, except unlike Mako she is an expert martial artist outside of bending. There is quite a number of higher level characters than mako who are not physical fighters and are not used to cqc, and would lose to him at such close ranges the same way.

had to surprise attack one of Lin's officers to incapacitate him

It wasn't a surprise attack, just something to throw him off and make him step back. There was no reason to challenge him to a duel or incapacitate him in a fight, so your problem with it being a surprise is weird.

lost to Eska and Desna

He never fought the twins, not to mention in a fair fight. The first time Desna attacked him from behind when he was distracted, followed by a massive waterblast from Unalaq that KO'd the brothers, the second time Mako and Bolin were rushing to help Korra and the twins attacked them in the back with a flash-freeze.

This was all with Bolin's help

Bolin was knocked out or didn't help during the moments Mako fought Lieutenant, and they weren't even fighting the twins to claim that "Mako lost a fight to them even though Bolin helped him".

The agents had no difficulty handling Mako's bending at all

And? Did the brothers have a problem "handling Dai Li's bending"?

One on one, Mako was very clearly losing to Viper in The Sting

And how exactly was that "very clearly"? They tagged each other once, and Mako ended up in the back seat, not showing any sign of being hurt or needing time to recover from the attack, then the fight was interrupted. There was nothing decisive about it. Mind you, it was a fight against a waterbender who in the very same scene was raising "icebergs" the size of Asami's boat and demonstrated better scale than Kya, Tonraq, Ming Hua and pre-fusion Unalaq ever did. At night, on a narrow moving boat that doesn't allow Mako to utilize his superior agility, in the middle of the bay, surrounded by water. The only way this fight could've been even more rigged against Mako is if it happened in the poles so that Mako would also stand on water.

he lost to a nameless metalbender, and you're wrong, he was very clearly initiating an attack against that exact guy but wasn't fast enough

This is false. First of all, he didn't lose, just got tripped, and later forced the same guy back. Secondly, the cable was around Mako's ancle even before Mako saw his opponent. https://imgbox.com/cqYzASHK

and he was scoffed at by Mike and Bryan for his futile attempt to take on Zaheer

Except they were praising Zaheer, not mocking Mako or his "futile" attempt. Especially since there was nothing futile about it, unless you want to call something like Avatar State Aang's earth bullet barrage futile just because he also missed his target with every projectile. And Mako didn't even miss, Zaheer dodged.

Beating a single other nameless metalbender while prepared and taking a beating isn't impressive to me

What's impressive to you is irrelevant, because impressive is subjective and you are biased. No offense. Also - "taking a beating" is another case of your lowballing. He was tagged once which only redirected his arm, and got tripped once. Neither did any damage to him.

What does it matter that they were inside the Colossus? That guy never used anything beyond his own armor in the fight

Rewatch it. He used some detail from the panel to the left from Mako to trip him, was using some metal sheet to block Mako's fire stream (because even his basic fireblasts blocked by a shield of metal sheets pushed the metalbender back) and then threw that sheet at him.

And, yes, losing to the Avatar is not bad, but he and Bolin went down just as easily as Viper and his Triple Threats did

Viper is a waterbender, who only had his pouch of water, facing a character who is leagues above him in speed and waterbending. And the level of combative and tactical capabilities of brainwashed characters is highly questionable, since they never even tried to do something beyond the most basic stuff, just like they never even tried to block or dodge anything.

Mako got chased around by Ming Hua in the only real, fair fight they had, in Misty Palms

Where he was keeping up with her in speed without amplifying his agility and mobility with bending, while dodging and blocking all of her attacks except one. In fact, that is THE ONLY time she tags him in all their three fights, plus Zaofu ordeal. And she didn't even outspeed him, he turned around and was releasing a fireblast at her, but her water arm overwhelmed it and grabbed his hand.

The reason I praise Kya's performance against her is that she actually accomplished something, landed a clean strike, and even pushed Ming Hua to her best tools

And what exactly did that accomplish? Ming Hua didn't take any damage from that hit, absorbed all of it and got stronger, while Kya waster ALL of her water and became defenseless. Again. She did the same thing against Zaheer. Sure, if instead of that waterblast she turned some of the water into sharp ice she would've killed her. But if we turn off plot armor Kya would've died before that, when she got overwhelmed by just three icicles from Ming Hua. If the third one was sharp she would've died, or Ming could've followed it with a fourth one to finish Kya off while she's recovering. While if we turn off plot armor in Mako's fights against her - he could've killed Ming Hua in their every single encounter. He connected his fireblasts with her water arms multiple times in their every fight. Switch either of those fireblasts to an instant lightning bolt and Ming goes down. So just for the record, ignoring that characters wasting these opportunities to kill their opponents for the sake of plot and age rating is stupid, - Kya only had one chance to kill Ming Hua during their fight. Mako had several in their every fight.

What Mako did in The Stakeout is what Kya was doing throughout the second phase of her encounter with Ming Hua. Just, running and trying to hold her off defensively

Except Mako was doing it better, dodging and blocking her attacks, cut off her water arm, and never failed to react to her attacks, unlike Kya. And never made amateur mistakes like Kya. Especially since she repeated it.

Mako managed to take her out after she'd been smacked by the Avatar State, was left with no water, and then sat inside a lake not knowing he can lightning bend

Her getting smacked by the avatar state, while an anti-feat to her reaction speed because the boulder was slow and the attack was heavily telegraphed, didn't show any consequences on her combative capabilities and performance. And she wasn't left with no water - Mako evaporated all her water. He chased her down, overwhelmed her to the degree where she couldn't even dodge his attacks despite having a solid cover and only could raise her water arms to protect her face on reflexes, evaporated her water and cornered her. The fight was effectively over by that point. If she knew he can lightning bend she wouldn't jump down. But the moment she did it was over for her regardless of if she knew about lightning or not. Her jumping down didn't really change much, she lost the fight regardless.

And while you can argue that she was at a disadvantage because she didn't have additional water resource, it doesn't matter. Even when she does, she doesn't use it unless she starts losing. Did she use any additional water in Misty Palms Inn, despite having an entire pool nearby? Did she use any additional water when she single-handedly stomped the twins and resqued P'li? Even though she had unlimited access to her element she didn't even touch it. Because two water arms is her preferred fighting style. It's the state in which she has the best feats and performances. That is her best. And she lost to Mako at her best. Restore her two water arms when she got cornered and the same will happen again. Because back at the inn he didn't have a problem keeping up with her superior bending amped agility and mobility, even though he didn't use bending to amplify his own mobility and only used physicals. In their final fight he got used to her fighting style (because for the most part she is a one trick pony, her water arms are versatile, but her versatility in waterbending is largely limited to the water arms technique), he used his own bending to keep up with her, he didn't let her go on her typical offensive and abrasive combat behavior, and she started to crumble. And as i mentioned already, no matter how many arms she has - Mako never had a problem with tagging the water connected to her body, so he can fry her in any circumstances, whether she is in a pool of water or not.

Lightning Bolt Zolt could replicate that scene too

Right, because he has such great feats of evasiveness and speed, and good enough physicals to dodge her tentacle onslaught. jump and stuck himself between two earth pillars, and generate lightning from a very uncomfortable position quicker than her multiple water arms reach him. Sure. Zolt's lack of feats is not a reason to consider him subpar btw, he instantly generated the second longest lightning stream in known lore, and most characters would lose to Amon under those circumstances due to his subtle bloodbending.

The problem starts when we place characters like Mako, who are talented, but clearly undisciplined, benders, on a pedestal simply because they have tons of screen time and a deuteragonist role

No one's putting him on a pedestal. Giving a character credit where credits due is not a crime and why you refuse to do so is beyond me. The problem starts when we lowball a character to sub hell level with ridiculous and out of context claims as if he ate the last piece of cake on your birthday.

His consistent track record throughout the entirety of the show involves competition with cannon fodder, wether that's losing, drawing, or barely winning

What kind of cannon fodder? You mean the equalists, who are arguably the best martial artists out of all groups of characters? The guys that took out Korra 1v1? The guys that are basically like Ty Lee, except better fighters? And with better feats, since they actually took out named characters without cheap shots. Also because they can do more in a fight than basic jabs. You mean the lieutenant who also gave Korra trouble 1v1? Mind you, regardless of it being season 1 Korra, she is still a pretty good firebender and a great h2h combatant even back then. The mecha tanks that took out Tenzin? The owl spirit from s2e1, that blitzed half the characters and shrugged off Avatar State firebending? The spirit vines that captured a master airbender in a gliding suit trying to escape? Kuvira's elite metalbenders that gave some trouble even to Lin, who is a superior bender compared to them in every aspect? Unalaq? Ming Hua? Ghazan? Amon? Which of those is an anti-feat?

Viper was winning last time this fight happened

He wasn't. They tagged each other once, and the fight was interrupted. And i already mentioned that Viper is far from fodder, and Mako was at a huge environmental disadvantage.

and Mako has not been portrayed as any better moving forward

Except, you know, just by feats and with only two arms Ming Hua is leagues above Viper in speed, power, versatility, mastery of the element and so on, and Mako beat her. Do you even think your claims through before posting them? Your comment legitimately puzzled me several times and i still struggle to take some of your claims it seriously. Again - no offense. Just weird.

Getting one occasional lucky -- and I mean that in every sense of the word given the context -- shot on Amon and Ming Hua doesn't change how I view his level

How you view his level doesn't matter much, as i explained already, because the level of bias is absurd. And there is nothing lucky about Mako's ability to summon lightning without movement (the only character capable of that) or attacking someone without moving just in general (can you even name five other characters who would manage to do that?) or him dodging all of Ming's tentacles, jumping between the pillars and zapping her, even though he could've and should've done it back in Zaofu. In this moment for example. https://imgbox.com/ianTMMY6

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shroudofsorrow

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You know, when I first saw this I thought you meant this Viper:

No Caption Provided

XD

Also, didn't know Mako was held in such low regard. *Shrugs*. Learn something new every day.

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Stratospher

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@shroudofsorrow:

Also, didn't know Mako was held in such low regard. *Shrugs*. Learn something new every day

Only by people who lowball him into dirt.

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anthp2000

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#22  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@stratospher:

The level of lowballing from you is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

Oh no.

Even Korra struggled against him, except unlike Mako she is an expert martial artist outside of bending. There is quite a number of higher level characters than mako who are not physical fighters and are not used to cqc, and would lose to him at such close ranges the same way.

The fight didn't start at close range. It started at effectively middle to long range, and mustache guy trated both Mako and Bolin, together, at once, like kids. Comparing that to Korra beating him using the slightest bit of bending shows the difference between them.

And? Did the brothers have a problem "handling Dai Li's bending"?

Mako didn't even beat a single one of them. You've been comparing him your entire post to benders like Korra, Ming Hua, Zaheer, Kya and Amon. Who have either treated the Dai Li like cannon fodder, or clearly would. You can't possibly not see the problem with this.

And how exactly was that "very clearly"? They tagged each other once, and Mako ended up in the back seat, not showing any sign of being hurt or needing time to recover from the attack, then the fight was interrupted. There was nothing decisive about it. Mind you, it was a fight against a waterbender who in the very same scene was raising "icebergs" the size of Asami's boat and demonstrated better scale than Kya, Tonraq, Ming Hua and pre-fusion Unalaq ever did. At night, on a narrow moving boat that doesn't allow Mako to utilize his superior agility, in the middle of the bay, surrounded by water. The only way this fight could've been even more rigged against Mako is if it happened in the poles so that Mako would also stand on water.

Firebending is traditionally a close combat oriented art. This is the entire basis of the fighting style. Viper didn't even use more water than a whip to attack Mako. You could hand him a water skin or two and the result would remain. We're talking about the same guy that was something less than a joke to Korra in her first real fight of her life ten minutes into the show. He actually scales under unknown chi blockers and sentries of the White Lotus. And again, this is the person you're trying to compare to the names you're dropping. Mako also never tagged Viper in that fight. Stumbling backwards doesn't constitute getting "tagged"; Viper on the other hand put him on his arse with a direct blow. The fight was interrupted because Asami had to save them instead.

The comparison to actual waterbending masters is something beyond me to address. I mean, Mako instantly went down to Unalaq using nothing but a water skin even with Korra being the primary target. But at least you do admit that Viper has amounts of raw power he did not make use of in his exchange with Mako, and probably would in a setting like this.

This is false. First of all, he didn't lose, just got tripped, and later forced the same guy back. Secondly, the cable was around Mako's ancle even before Mako saw his opponent. https://imgbox.com/cqYzASHK

Your own screenshot shows him looking at the metalbender. Here's what happened: Mako saw him coming, like, clearly, and put his arm in that position to attack him.

The Legend of Korra, Book 4,
The Legend of Korra, Book 4, "Reunion" (open in new tab, the site doesn't like loading images anymore)

As you can see he was about to throw fire at them. Unless he decided to hit the dance floor all of sudden, this is what his stance suggests. And he visibly managed to get some fire out, but he was too slow in the end, and got knocked down. It's extremely simple.

Mako was down for seconds, while the metalbender was focused on Korra, then he forced him to move backwards with some fire, while he was focused on Korra. Then they were cornered and had to jump off the train. It doesn't matter whether you want to call this outright losing or getting tripped up; Mako was clearly beneath the guy in this scene.

What's impressive to you is irrelevant, because impressive is subjective and you are biased. No offense. Also - "taking a beating" is another case of your lowballing. He was tagged once which only redirected his arm, and got tripped once. Neither did any damage to him.

You've no idea how much it doesn't affect me what opinion of mine, that I was asked to share on a site you just joined, you think is or isn't relevant. No offense. Unlike you I'm not pretending my idea of 'impressive' is factual.

What kind of cannon fodder?

The nameless chi blockers that were losing to Meelo, the nameless metalbenders that were losing to Opal, the nameless Dai Li agents that were losing to Zaheer, and Viper, the Triple Threat Triad member, who is also the point of conversation here.

Except they were praising Zaheer, not mocking Mako or his "futile" attempt. Especially since there was nothing futile about it,

I'm very sorry, but Bryan's exact wording on the commentary was that Zaheer was "not even winded" and went like "yeah, whatever, little boys". And he laughed out loud while making this comment. That's one step further from praising Zaheer.

unless you want to call something like Avatar State Aang's earth bullet barrage futile just because he also missed his target with every projectile.

Lol.

And what exactly did that accomplish?

A clean hit and battlefield removal, blasting her off the cloud high building they were fighting on, is a lot more than what Mako accomplished in Misty Palms. Which is... survive, mostly because she wanted him hostage. She was out for blood against Kya too. Another noteworthy detail. Like I said, there's no difference between Mako running from her the entire time and Kya running from her during the second phase of the fight on the Temple when she pushed her into using her octopus form; but there was also a first phase in that battle, and that's where Kya actually accomplished things.

While if we turn off plot armor in Mako's fights against her - he could've killed Ming Hua in their every single encounter. He connected his fireblasts with her water arms multiple times in their every fight. Switch either of those fireblasts to an instant lightning bolt and Ming goes down.

That's a bit of a silly argument. Switch Ming Hua's water arms with frozen tips and she stabs through his fire or lightning and himself. Besides, his "instant lightning" isn't literally instant, it takes chi, focus, a stance, moreso than firebending while hopelessly trying to hold off your opponent barraging at you, that you know you cannot win against -- as Mako and Bolin did.

Her getting smacked by the avatar state, while an anti-feat to her reaction speed because the boulder was slow and the attack was heavily telegraphed, didn't show any consequences on her combative capabilities and performance.

She was suddenly losing to Mako; a clear consequence I'm afraid. It doesn't matter if you personally choose to ignore the context of the scene, it exists, and it is fundamental in my opinion.

edit: Also, I should probably ignore your comment on anti feats as it might derive from the central topic, but that's false; she did react to Korra's attack, and tried to stop it with her waterbending. She was expectedly overpowered and launched against the wall.

You see, "anti feats" are just made up by us V.S. fans to explain things; actual inconsistencies might exist, but they're few and far between in shows as carefully crafted as Avatar -- usually there's good meta-reasoning as to why these inconsitencies exist. For example there's such a thing as gag or joke scenes. And to drive back on topic, Mako, whom I do enjoy as a character to respond to your weird accusations, is plain portrayed as not comparable to the best, or even close. He's a talented bender, but he's not been formally trained by a master, and this shows relative to his fellow allies. The same goes for Bolin too. Mako's scenes I brought up above are not jokes or gag scenes, they're a serious part of the plot, and his limits have been shown times and again; his claim to fame is beating Ming Hua with piles of context and catching Amon off guard, that's it. He's been portrayed as a joke against half the first line villains, he's barely survived encounters against supporting villains like Amon's lieutenant, Viper, Unalaq's kids, Tokuga, he's constantly struggled against cannon fodder, he... beat a mecha tank that decided to cable him with electricity once, and won against a metalbender -- a 1-1 record there -- which is nice. That essentially sums up his entire track record in major sequences. And then there's pro-bending, which is excellent at. This is me giving him credit exactly where it's due, but also pointing out that he's not quite as great at combat as you want him to be, and there's good reason.

there is nothing lucky about Mako's ability to summon lightning without movement (the only character capable of that) or attacking someone without moving just in general (can you even name five other characters who would manage to do that?) or him dodging all of Ming's tentacles, jumping between the pillars and zapping her,

The luck factor is in fact highily involved in these situations; according to Mike, Mako managed to zap Amon because he was distracted with Korra, allowing him to take a deep breath in and out, and focus his chi. Not to mention he was taking his sweet time with him because he wasn't threatened. And someone standing on a lake in front of you -- and decided to not attack you the same way they did, say, Desna and Eska, because they don't view you as a real threat anymore, is luck based too; in that it isn't an indication of how these encounters would go the majority of the time.

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@anthp2000:

The fight didn't start at close range. It started at effectively middle to long range

There was nothing even remotely close to long range, they were a few meters away from each other at most.

mustache guy trated both Mako and Bolin, together, at once, like kids

This is also false, he never fought them both at once. He engaged Mako first, and while Bolin was there, he was off screen doing absolutely nothing. Then he fought Bolin while Mako wasn't a part of it. Then Bolin went down, Mako re-engaged.

Comparing that to Korra beating him using the slightest bit of bending shows the difference between them

And i even explained that difference - Mako is not a hand to hand combatant.

Mako didn't even beat a single one of them

Again - your point? If he struggled against them i would understand you bringing this up.

You've been comparing him your entire post to benders like Korra, Ming Hua, Zaheer, Kya and Amon. Who have either treated the Dai Li like cannon fodder, or clearly would

Kya has no business being on this list. And again - if Mako struggled against the Dai Li your point would've had some sense.

Firebending is traditionally a close combat oriented art. This is the entire basis of the fighting style

First of all - since when? Is this why traditional agni kai never starts at close ranges? Secondly - what does this have to do with the topic? We're not talking about traditional firebending. We're talking about a specific firebender who has his own fighting style that doesn't have much to do with traditional firebending.

Viper didn't even use more water than a whip to attack Mako

And Mako didn't spam his adult body sized fireblasts either.

You could hand him a water skin or two and the result would remain

Nice of you to completely ignore me explaining in detail how disadvantageous this fight was for him. Again - fighting in the middle of the ocean at night, on a moving boat, so narrow you can't even side step an attack, while Mako relies on his agility and mobility a lot.

We're talking about the same guy that was something less than a joke to Korra in her first real fight of her life ten minutes into the show

Again: Korra - the avatar and one of the most powerful waterbenders in lore, who outclasses Viper in every possible aspect including speed - has nothing to do with the topic.

He actually scales under unknown chi blockers and sentries of the White Lotus

I don't know about the White Lotus guards, but chi blockers are pretty decent opponents.

Mako also never tagged Viper in that fight. Stumbling backwards doesn't constitute getting "tagged"

Great point. So Mako, who even in the first season has feats of throwing four fireblasts in under a second, spamming large fireblasts, and releasing fireblasts with enough concussive force behind them to send his opponents flying backwards, attacked Viper in this fight and all it did was a little "Ouch". He also landed that hit by outspeeding and preempting Viper's attack. So either he was massively nerfed by the circumstances (though even in the south pole at night he wasn't that bad) or it's a clear case of PIS.

Viper on the other hand put him on his arse with a direct blow

And Mako's was indirect somehow?

The comparison to actual waterbending masters is something beyond me to address

The comparison was limited to me pointing out that Viper demonstrated better scale than the mentioned waterbenders, which is a fact. I don't see what you would even try to address here.

I mean, Mako instantly went down to Unalaq using nothing but a water skin even with Korra being the primary target

Mako attacked him - Unalaq counter-attacked. What does Korra have to do with it? He wasn't distracted on her at the moment, she wasn't doing anything.

But at least you do admit that Viper has amounts of raw power he did not make use of in his exchange with Mako

And i'm not surprised that you would not admit that Mako does and did not as well.

Your own screenshot shows him looking at the metalbender

Mako doesn't have eyes in his ears. The screenshot shows Mako starting to turn around towards an opponent that is behind him.

Here's what happened: Mako saw him coming, like, clearly, and put his arm in that position to attack him.

Except his opponent was behind him, the cable was wrapped around his ankle before he turned around, and he was going to attack with the other arm. The fact remains that he was attacked in the back.

It doesn't matter whether you want to call this outright losing or getting tripped up; Mako was clearly beneath the guy in this scene

It doesn't matter what i want to call it. It matters that you're eager to equate being tripped to losing a fight.

You've no idea how much it doesn't affect me what opinion of mine, that I was asked to share on a site you just joined, you think is or isn't relevant. No offense. Unlike you I'm not pretending my idea of 'impressive' is factual

Sure. It SOOO doesn't affect you that you felt morally obliged to tell me about it from a position of supposed authority (being here for longer) before resorting to such petty and false accusations. Convincing.

The nameless chi blockers that were losing to Meelo

So now you're lowballing them too, based on a stupid scene that was made to entertain kids. Does this mean you're convinced that Korra would lose to him too? Since she lost to them.

the nameless metalbenders that were losing to Opal

To Opal? When?

the nameless Dai Li agents that were losing to Zaheer

If losing to Zaheer is an anti-feat, why do you even bother trying to defend Kya getting lolstomped by him twise in one fight?

I'm very sorry, but Bryan's exact wording on the commentary was that Zaheer was "not even winded" and went like "yeah, whatever, little boys". And he laughed out loud while making this comment.

That was Zaheer's perspective, and there was nothing to laugh about. An attack - a counter-attack. It's no different to what Zaheer did to Kya, no matter how they try to hype her up their words go directly against what was shown. Except Mako was even less of a threat due to his circumstances at the moment.

A clean hit and battlefield removal, blasting her off the cloud high building they were fighting on, is a lot more than what Mako accomplished in Misty Palms

Nothing is not "a lot more" than nothing. Kya didn't accomplish a thing, she wasted all her water and payed for it the rest of the fight.

Which is... survive, mostly because she wanted him hostage. She was out for blood against Kya too. Another noteworthy detail

Right, right. That's why Ming was throwing her water arms at Mako so hard they were shattering concrete. And that's why she was just slapping defenseless Kya with her water arms instead of killing her. Makes sense.

but there was also a first phase in that battle, and that's where Kya actually accomplished things

Right. Got hit waaay sooner than Mako did, after getting overwhelmed by just three icicles, one of which was her own.

That's a bit of a silly argument. Switch Ming Hua's water arms with frozen tips and she stabs through his fire or lightning and himself

Because she has feats of stabbing through lightning with ice without getting hurt? Mako blocked her water blasts in direct "beam struggle" and she needed to push through, but he dodged it. Again - she only tagged him ONCE in three fights, and without plot armor he would've killed her back in Zaofu before she ever had a chance to land anything on him.

Besides, his "instant lightning" isn't literally instant, it takes chi, focus, a stance, moreso than firebending

All bending requires chi and focus, and he literally demonstrated that he doesn't need a stance to shoot it when he zapped Amon while being on his knees and being bloodbended, and when he was between pillars in an uncomfortable pose while zapping Ming.

while hopelessly trying to hold off your opponent barraging at you

When did she "barrage" at him? And it doesn't change the fact that he never had a problem with connecting his fireblasts to her water and could've killed her in their every fight. Just take the fireblast that initiated the fight at the Misty Palms Inn, where Ming didn't even see him and jumped towards Naga.

She was suddenly losing to Mako; a clear consequence I'm afraid

Except it's not, since she was doing all the same things she was doing in their previous fights, but Mako performed better.

It doesn't matter if you personally choose to ignore the context of the scene, it exists, and it is fundamental in my opinion

And that's just your opinion. Her losing to Mako despite being just as fast and agile as before doesn't prove she was nerfed because of that attack.

edit:Also, I should probably ignore your comment on anti feats as it might derive from the central topic, but that's false; she did react to Korra's attack, and tried to stop it with her waterbending. She was expectedly overpowered and launched against the wall

So she wasn't smart enough to come to a conclusion that she can't overpower an attack from the avatar, or it was just a reflex and she didn't have enough time to come to that conclusion, which if she had she probably would've decided to get the hell away from the rock.

You see, "anti feats" are just made up by us V.S. fans to explain things; actual inconsistencies might exist, but they're few and far between in shows as carefully crafted as Avatar -- usually there's good meta-reasoning as to why these inconsitencies exist. For example there's such a thing as gag or joke scenes

Which doesn't stop you from using such scenes to defend your points for some reason.

And to drive back on topic, Mako, whom I do enjoy as a character to respond to your weird accusations, is plain portrayed as not comparable to the best, or even close

Which is not what i'm arguing either.

Mako's scenes I brought up above are not jokes or gag scenes, they're a serious part of the plot, and his limits have been shown times and again

Using his worst feats, PIS, taking things out of context and claiming that those are his limits is exactly what i'm talking about when i call you out on lowballing him to absurd degrees. If it's true that you like the character all this is even more weird.

He's been portrayed as a joke against half the first line villains, he's barely survived encounters against supporting villains like Amon's lieutenant, Viper, Unalaq's kids, Tokuga, he's constantly struggled against cannon fodder

Thank you for continuing to prove my point. "Barely survived" the lieutenant? "Barely survived" Viper after taking a hit that didin't do shit? "Barely survived" the twins he never even fought? "Barely survived" Tokuga who just tossed him while he was still recovering? Who was he portrayed as a joke against? Amon who himself admitted how talented he is? Ming who only managed to tag him once in three fights, and in the next one was so frustrated with him she had to yell at Ghazan to deal with the situation? He didn't have a problem dodging and blocking Unalaq's attacks (the same that were pulverizing Bolin's rocks in the same scene) and successfully stalling, and only lost after going on the offense and getting too close (which is not his strongest suit). Also blocked Ming's attacks that also break rocks and shatter metal. And the fodder he struggled against made other high tier characters struggle the same way.

Mako is the second most versatile lightning bender in lore so far (properly generated lightning, instant lightning, lightning streams, redirection), was famous through out the city for how talented he was, powerful enough to break through Ghazan's earth defence with a casual fireblast while being mid-air, showed very decent feats of agility, acrobatics, scale, range, precision, speed and power in bending, defeated a supposedly "undefeatable" 1v1 bender, fought the widest variety of opponents, rained hell on Unalaq's camp. Of course he's not a top tier, but you are basically trying to equate him to fodder, which is insane to me.

he... beat a mecha tank that decided to cable him with electricity once, and won against a metalbender -- a 1-1 record there -- which is nice. That essentially sums up his entire track record in major sequences. And then there's pro-bending, which is excellent at. This is me giving him credit exactly where it's due, but also pointing out that he's not quite as greatat combatas you want him to be, and there's good reason

The problem is not that he is bad at something. The problem is that for whatever reason he is very inconsistent in his combative and bending capabilities, as a lot of things in LOK are, and the writers are to blame. You said: "usually there's good meta-reasoning as to why these inconsitencies exist". Mako's fast enough to compete with Ming and keep Amon, his lieutenant and a few chi blockers at bay by himself for a brief while when Korra frees Tenzin, but not fast enough to deal with Viper? Seriously? Can you give me good meta-reasoning for this inconsistency to make some sense of it?

The luck factor is in fact highily involved in these situations; according to Mike, Mako managed to zap Amon because he was distracted with Korra, allowing him to take a deep breath in and out, and focus his chi. Not to mention he was taking his sweet time with him because he wasn't threatened

Taking advantage of your opponent's sloppiness and arrogance is not luck.

And someone standing on a lake in front of you -- and decided to not attack you the same way they did, say, Desna and Eska, because they don't view you as a real threat anymore, is luck based too; in that it isn't an indication of how these encounters would go the majority of the time

What Ming did to the twins happened at a very close distance. I don't believe Ming has any good feats of her bending range other than the length of her water arms, so there's nothing that says she had the ability to flash freeze him in that situation. And as i mentioned already, she lost the fight before that.

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#28  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@stratospher: I honestly don't know. I know Avatar to a point, but not to the degree that I know Star Wars, MCU, or Marvel and DC comics. Heck at this point I probably know almost as much of WHF as I do of Avatar despite having been into the latter for far longer. It's also been a while since I've seen AtLA or Legend of Korra, so my memories of specific feats and context are very fuzzy and lacking. I also have no clue who Viper here is.

Sorry :(

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#29 anthp2000  Moderator
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