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#1 Edited by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio
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Castlevania Lords of Shadow Dracula: He has void sword, shadow whip & chaos claws

Vergil from Devil May Cry main canon timeline: He's only wielding Yamato

Dracula doesn't have access to his Castle during the fight

random encounter Fight takes place in Seattle, 15 meters apart

Fight to death/K.O./Incapacitation

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#2 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster ask and ye shall receive

too scared to debate me in a thread made for such a discussion. Thnx for you .... insight? Yeah that.

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#3 Posted by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1702 posts) - - Show Bio

Saber

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#4 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan: cool when I get off of work I will give my thoughts and love to see your own.

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#8 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan: OK lets talk on why I feel without a doubt that Belmont Dracula is clearly superior to Vergil.

FWI if the gifs or link are broken, let me know and I will re put them in. I had to do this multiple times in the past few weeks with my gifs or links :/

Note On Scaling For Both Parties

I expect you yourself to use tons of scaling, and I will in turn do the same. Problem with Vergil debaters is that Vergil is very near featless in all the games, he has only so much screen time and very few stand alone feats. His best feats are scaling to his brother, and that shit is false as Dante is and always been the superior brother. DMC5 Dante > DMC Dante > DMC Vergil > DMC3 Dante > DMC3 Vergil. Its that simple. So scaling Vergil to Dante is faulty as shit.

Meanwhile Dracula is easily scale able to anyone in his universe because in both lore and feats he is better than anyone minus god. In game Human Gabriel powered up from his adventures and God was more than able to take on the most powerful being in his universe, the Shadow Lords and to a degree Satan in their fight. Then Gabriel gets in lore the amp of being a powerful Vampire on top of his already superhuman gifts as Gods chosen, gets Camilla's castle that is powered by his "Inner Dracula" and the powers of the Forgotten One who was the only being in lore comparable to Satan. So in lore and feats scaling for Gabriel to Alucard or Satan is very comparable. Unlike people who try to scale Vergil to Dante.

Now that key part of Vergil debates is out of the way lets get into the stats and hax of both characters.

Strength

whats Vergils best strength feat. Go ahead and show it. There is hardly any. The best Vergil fans can do is scale to Dante. Well two issues with this. One Vergil is better than Vergil, and always has been. Two Dante best feat is Savior punch and that has the context of Savior being depowered via Nero in mid swing, thus the feat is impossible to quantify how much strength Dante reasonably used to stop the depowered fist.

Well about Dracula/ Dracula has tons of strength feats.

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Dracula forces back hundreds of tons of battering ram back. This battering ram is the size of the castle doors and solid.

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Dracula here with one hand holds up a SUV size heart, while it turns to stone, and then shatters under its own weight. easy low ball weight of 30+ tons with one hand.

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Dracula catches this monsters weapon with ease. The shown force and damage this weapon has behind it shown as it force and blocking it destroys the entire stone castle area they are fighting on.

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Dracula rips apart the chain moorings the size of houses with ease. Thousands of ton feat of force to break iron that thick.

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Dracula and his Son Alucard rip down a fort size stone wall with effort. Another easy 1000s of ton feat between the two of them.

In the end, Dracula is just so damn superior in strength, able to very well manhandle Vergil by feats alone, and scaling Vergil to his superior brother only shows possibly matching. if we went that shaky route.

Durability

Now we get into the durability argument. Who is able to take more damage. I will say this is a area both are "comparable" in though again I argue Dracula is better in healing. Lets get the previous out of the way, neither side is immune to bullets or blades. So that does not matter. Though truth be told Dracula has far superior Damage Resistance than Vergil in many ways.

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Dracula walks through this raging inferno fine.

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Dracula tanks this blast that wiped out several floors of a building.

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It should also be said that this Dracula is not weak to holy attacks or signs at all. He is a servant of god in a dark twisted way. Now you feel this feat is worthless because he is immune to holy damage. Well the feat is not just holy damage.

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As stated the attack was not simply JUST holy damage. It was physical kinetic force that scientist argued resulted of a large meteor hitting the earth. The Holy knights themselves were set on fire and pulverize by the blast. The surrounding area was damage. If the attack was purely holy damage, then why was the neutral surrounding area damage? Why was the Holy Knights, favored sons of God damage and killed? Why were Scientist linking the damage site a Meteor impact? Simple, it was more than simple holy damage, which Dracula ate to the face fine. I mean he is near equal with Satan and stated unkillable to anything except Vampire Killer. Its stated nothing but Vampire Killer can kill Dracula. The only reason people fight Dracula is to weaken him and keep him weaken. Nothing can "kill" Dracula. Vergil gets no such accolades. So the end argument comes down to healing abilities and who can out last who. that is simple, its Dracula.

Vergil can tank slicing attacks and stabs and auto heal in seconds. So can Dracula.

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Vampire Carmilla alone, who is inferior in all ways to the Holy Knight amped + Vampire amped + Forgotten One amped Dracula showed insane instant healing on par with ANYTHING Dante much less Vergil shown.

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Pierced in the back, and thrown through steel doors. Dracula gets right back up. No issues.

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Dracula is stabbed through the stomach and pinned in place. Rips himself off and keeps fighting. No issues.Nothing vergil has is better, though I argue Dracula has better healing and control of his physical body.

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Dracula is fully able to break his body down to blood and reform from blood. he pretty much has cellular to molecule level control as he can generate clothing from blood. The guy healing and body manipulation is just flat out superior compared to Vergil consistent run of healing feats like these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoACTZLM_Qo

Not truly immortal at all, healing taxed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJe1edjppAY

Not truly immortal at all, healing taxed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rszJMbM_pHE

Not truly immortal at all, healing taxed :/ Hell Dante who was greatly wounded and running a gauntlet of foes match Vergil fine enough honestly.

Then there is still one more counter and point to bring up. Gabriel blood drinking. Even if by some miracle Vergil manages to "tax" Dracula healing factor, he can fully restore his body and healing with a good old fashion vampire bite.

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As expected, Dracula ability to drain the blood of a human can happen in seconds. Fleshy human to dry husk. Back to 100% percent while further taxiing Vergil own healing still. Its just a lost cause to argue otherwise.

Well so much for that argument of Vergil outlasting Dracula.

Speed

Oh yeah baby, now we are getting into the good shit. the biggest argument for Vergil fanas vs most people is dealing with arguments of how fast Vergil is. Too bad Vergil speed is not really much a factor here. While DMC has more emphasis on speeds in battles, Castlevania LoS characters also get insane speed feats via the lore and cinematics.

First lets look at Vergil speed claims to fame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBxkqoZiPLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkmsMLJ2dc

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Yeah thats some nice Mach 5 maybe shit. Too bad Castlevania also shows same speed in the move sets of Alucard and Dracula.

Whirlwind

Press and hold [Block] and [Direct Attack] to spin the Void Sword at high speed, attracting small nearby enemies to line them up. Move the [Move] stick toward them to knock them down with a quick charge movement.

Void Kata

Brandish the Void Sword at great speed sucking in nearby small enemies and then punish them with a storm of cuts.

Vengeful Cut

Series of whirling, spinning attacks that can damage all enemies in the area. You can finish the combo sequence at any time by pressing the [Area Attack] button again to deal a sadistic cut that works as a Block Breaker.

- Lords of Shadow 2

Some game descriptions of the moves below.

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Alucard is able to jump and swing his sword so fast that it generates several blade effects, with a speed that makes a wind vortex that sucks enemies into it.

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Alucard generating several afterimage sword thrusts.

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Alucard runs in a circle so fast to create several after image blurs. Best part is this move explains specifically its speed related!

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Alucard seems to be swing his sword in one attack, but generates several after image strikes.

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What appears to be one sword strike is several sword strikes.

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Dracula is able to manifest after images with his gauntlets. creating whats seems a whirlwind of fire attacks. At the end of the move he explodes several after images of strikes.

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The Dark Crystal unleashes a uber powerful Demon, possibly Angel dragged to hell from in game clues, that attacks and kills just about every foe in game. It seems to move at insane high speeds around the target, and drains it of life. that is how it is portrayed in the story cut scenes of the game. Yet when Dracula faces this being...

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That speed seems to be slow motion to him, as Dracula casually speed wise dispatches one of the top demons of the lore and game.

I mean the real wank speed feat for Dante or Vergil is the "Demon moves like Lightning" quote, and we see Vergil react to Blitz "lightning" attack making him mach 200. well by that counter, her is Lady, a mere slight super human at best, reacting to Vergil fine. Yes I know this particular YT vid is dubbed with kick ass RE4 dialogue but I dont care, its the visual I was looking for to prove the point.

https://youtu.be/x9VuBEiFgPo?t=125

Just saying, where is that lightning strike mach 200 speed here to one shot Lady? Add to this if we REALLY want to wank such things, Dracula as human and Vampire Lord already react casually to lightning level attacks of foes fine to begin with.

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So much for that wank. Oh wait, Vergil is also scale able to Dante (debunk that already) and Dante is mach 25 base on this feat. lets assume he is comparable to Dante best speed feat here. Lets assume, too bad Dracula matches that anyway.

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Satan moves at such speed the air leaves a fiery trail, and hits the 100,000s of tons of solid rock so hard at such speeds to shatter it to pieces. Thats well above mach 25 re entry speeds mate. Dracula reacts to this speed in a split second right before impact fine. Then one ups Satan.

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Dracula is slamming the cross at full speed on the possessed Alucard. Satan retreats at full speed out of Alucard with the world standing still, same Satan who already moves at re entry level speeds. Dracula notices this, and reacts in a split moment blitzing Satan. Thats really GG on the silly speed gap notions some may try to argue.

So much for the Vergil is faster speed arguments.

Hax, Game Breaking Hax

While stats is IMO by feats firmly in Dracula favor, the real end of this debate is hax. I will admit I only glance at cut scenes of DMC5 but from what I seen, Vergil only real hax is same old. He has some weak ass energy projection for stabbing, teleport ability, and the OMGWTHTROLOLOL Dimension Cutting sword lol. Well honestly I see no reason to touch on the energy stabbing attacks. Its pointless on Dracula. So what about teleporting?

Vergil teleport vs Mist teleport

Dracula teleports too pretty much.

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Dracula using the mist to teleport around to assault others with surprise attacks at high speeds.

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Dracula can also use this move to teleport out of harms away, or out of the effects of others special attacks. Avoiding any form of damage and gain distance. Dracula always had the ability via his mist form, and with with Dracula speed combine with powerful AOE attacks, teleporting is not a factor anyway. So thats a bust.

Dimension Cutting Sword vs Void Sword/Chaos Gauntlets/Healing Factor/Mist

That leaves the hax of the dimension cutting sword arguments, which again is so what? First off lets get out of the way the WANK that surrounds this sword and its dimension ability.

https://youtu.be/8sdzSDKquiY?t=1162

While Death battle is terrible at times, this part is true and something I call out on Vergil wankers as well. Vergil sword cannot simply cut anything. It failed to cut Lady's rocket launcher. The move itself requires a special stance and charge up time to "cut anything" and even that is a lie as Dante's magical weapon can block it. Anything on par or more powerful should block its effects fine too. The stance and chare up for the move is also a huge disadvantage to pulling it off altogether. He maybe cuts Alucard in half who then can reform fine via turning into mist or blood? I mean what good is cutting Dracula in half will do when he will easy reform or auto heal the cut before ever falling apart? I also argue Dracula own Chaos Gauntlets and Void Sword can block it too.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Both the Void Sword and chaos Gauntlets are objects that defy physics and not limited by the rules of any dimensions. The Void sword alone projects magical energy of the void to freeze shit, and steal life force of what it touches. The chaos Gauntlets allowed for the reality warping effects of building a bigger castle out of their fire 0_0 how that works is beyond me. Either way both weapons are as magical and potent as Yamamato itself or Rebellion, both which Dimension cutting comes from or cannot cut through. I dont see why these reality breaking magical weapons of the highest degree of Dracula's lore will be unable to block the dimension cutting special attacks.

Vergil Inability to Fly vs Dracula's Flight

yeah this is a factor. Something Vergil cannot counter at all. You could argue teleporting maybe but to what end when his teleport is limited in distance and range and times he can do it?

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There is not counter to Dracula staying mist form raining Chaos Bombs of death. Its a factor.

Void Sword Life Steal and Freezing

Another huge adavatge with little counter is Void Sword itself. The weapon is able to flash freeze foes into loses including the strongest Shadow Lord that was Zobek, aka death, himself.

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GG Vergil good luck healing from being shattered to frozen pieces. best part is this sword has range freezing attacks too.

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Thus allowing Dracula serious advantage in range and slowing Vergil down more. There is also all these AOE ice attack that can catch Vergil flat footed.

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Dracula Flash Freezes the ground.

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Blizzard is a flash freeze AOE attack. Hard to dodge that in close combat.

Vergil's Lack of Mind Control Resistance vs Possession/Corruption

Another huge factor that leads to a easy GG is Dracula ability to simply mind control Vergil. mind Control is not a huge thing in DMC lore, and Vergil may see through illusions one time in manga, thats not a mind control feat. Vergil HAS BEEN mind control by Mundus to be Mundus's little bitch when he was Angelo though. So we know that does work on Vergil. Dracula is the most powerful being of his universe minus God. Ruling even a pocket dimension that is his castle of all things with his willpower alone. Able to face and beat every day world ending Satan. Possessing the powers of world changing Forgotten One.

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In Mirror Fate, Dracula corrupts Simon Belmont with shadow on a whim. Forcing him to fight his Alucard. A holy warrior of god, of the Belmont lineage, made slave with little effort.

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In Lords of Shadow we see Dracula use his blood to corrupt the Golems crystals, killing it.

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Dracula's blood transform physically, and corrupts the Toy Maker.

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Dracula's blood corrupts Medusa, who then corrupts her sisters, to fight Dracula. The blood even transforms them into a super monster, changing their bodies on the cellular level.

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Dracula can temporary possess a body, and reduce it to blood after its use. No way is Vergil lack of mind control resistance hope to put up a logical or believable counter to Dracula controlling or ruling him with his curation/possessions abilities. You would have to PROVE Vergil can resist a being of Dracula Caliber and PROVE he can resist flat out mind control. I know you cannot. Thats another easy win for Dracula.

Vergil Devil Form vs Dracula

Another major Vergil fan defense when being overwhelmed is "but Vergil Devil Form is super powerful and amps him to nth degrees." I hear this argument so much, yet every time it makes me smh. It amps him huh? To what level. Quantify it. go ahead. Tell me HOW MUCH IT AMPS HIM. Otherwise its a over wank and featless transformation you cannot quantify thus useless in a logical debate. Nuff said. Will it "amp him"? Sure, lets say to be fair it doubles. you cannot claim it does more than that as again its UNQUANTIFIABLE and FEATLESS!

Conclusions.....

Vergil is simply outclass in hax, and stats. Stats wise they are roughly close. I can give Vergil that, but in terms of strength Dracula has better stand alone feats with no need to scale. In terms of speed he more than matches any wank feat or logical quantifiable feat or artstyle base speed feat. In terms of durability Alucard is more durable and has way to avoid damage flat out, or replenish health while Vergil has no option. Vergil cannot heal from being turn to ice and shattered, cannot heal life force stealing attacks, cannot heal from Mind Control or changed on the Molecular/Cellular level really into something else as Dracula shown to do. As shown teleportion for Vergil is useless, his range attack energy swords is useless, and his dimension cutting attack has several flaws vs Dracula.

Thus Vergil is inferior IMO. Not by a whole lot via stats, but for sure mostly due to the way better options of hax that Dracula has over him. Also as you yourself stated in the OP, you took away the Castle from Dracula. A major source of power for Dracula and useful in itself in a fight. Hell its a one object army that exists in pocket dimensions and reality warps damn near whats in it via Dracula's will. So you already semi admit Vergil is inferior by NERFING Dracula here, and I still see ways for Dracula to easy beat Nero.

So, with all that pointed out, do you accept Dracula is the "slight" superior? Or will you hold onto your judgement and pride? Do you understand why I place Belmont Dracula above Vergil in a fight vs someone else?

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#9 Posted by Tony501 (221 posts) - - Show Bio

Vergil one shot

Online
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#10 Posted by DevoidRuby (406 posts) - - Show Bio

Vergil bodies

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#12 Posted by DevoidRuby (406 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Why should post count be any reason to disregard a users opinion?

You might want to stop throwing those mighty 1700+ posts around like it’s something impressive.

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#13 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@devoidruby: Ha, myself a alt account. Since you dont know me, then you must be new.

Since your new, here is a idea. If you really think Vergil wins, put some effort in a argument as to why then name drop and move on like someone who has no clue what he is debating. hint from a asshole and troll of a vet like myself ;)

I await any reason you really have to "Debate" on this "Debate thread" why Vergil wins or in your words, "bodies" Gabriel. Go ahead. I will wait.

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#14 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster:

Vergil is very near featless in all the games,

For one, this is wrong. He has many feats of his own without scaling and I've compiled all of them.

So scaling Vergil to Dante is faulty as shit.

Wrong again. By DMC5, Vergil and Dante are explicitly equal.

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They spent over 1 month in hell fighting each other to a draw. They are twin brothers with the exact same power source.

Dracula here with one hand holds up a SUV size heart, while it turns to stone, and then shatters under its own weight.

That is not the size of an SUV. Where do you pull these figures from? a respect thread?

Dracula catches this monsters weapon with ease. The shown force and damage this weapon has behind it shown as it force and blocking it destroys the entire stone castle area they are fighting on.

It made cracks in the floor and raised the ground. Again, inferior.

Dracula and his Son Alucard rip down a fort size stone wall with effort. Another easy 1000s of ton feat between the two of them.

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Dracula rips apart the chain moorings the size of houses with ease. Thousands of ton feat of force to break iron that thick.

It's funny that you ask for quantification yet there is zero quantification here. Like Holy hell, you're directly copying and pasting everything from @sirfizzwhizzrespect thread. How rude and terrible.

He's breaking chains from their hinges. There is no 1000 ton of force being applied here. What the hell are you talking about?

Two Dante best feat is Savior punch and that has the context of Savior being depowered via Nero in mid swing, thus the feat is impossible to quantify how much strength Dante reasonably used to stop the depowered fist.

At a base level, what Vergil can withstand scaling from Dante. The Savior punch is easy.

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Very rough calculation for the giant punch: Assuming its the same density as water and has close proportions to an upscaled human body, the arm should be around 700 tons and im guessing it moves around 60 m/s so 1260 MJ kinetic energy, stopped in like half a meter or so is 256 880 tons of impact force.

Dante and vergil cut down the Qliphoth tree at the end of the game in hell.

For reference, this is the size of the demon tree as it kept growing.

We are given a better shot Dante, Vergil & Nero after their fight at the top of the tree.

Dante and vergil cut down the demon tree at the end of the game in hell.

Vergil believed he was fully capable of doing it on his own and he's not one to lie.

Time frame is given so we know they arrived and cut down the tree roughly at the same time as Nero arrived in Redgrave city to kill demons at 6:26 pm because nero sees that the tree was cut down, whittled away and falling before he finished killing demons.

You can still see the bottom of the tree showing that they cut the tree. The roots you actually destroy throughout the game from the qliphoth also look different, they have red portions in them.​

Dracula walks through this raging inferno fine.

Something vergil can do. His body is literally so hot that it has blue flames. Imagine trying to burn someone that is hot enough his body is flaming blue by using flaming red fire. Not gonna do anything.

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Dracula tanks this blast that wiped out several floors of a building.

Unimpressive again. An explosion only means that he'll be feeling a very small amount of that energy given Dracula's size (the size of a human). Breaking a floor of a building is not impressive.

As stated the attack was not simply JUST holy damage. It was physical kinetic force that scientist argued resulted of a large meteor hitting the earth. The Holy knights themselves were set on fire and pulverize by the blast. The surrounding area was damage. If the attack was purely holy damage, then why was the neutral surrounding area damage? Why was the Holy Knights, favored sons of God damage and killed? Why were Scientist linking the damage site a Meteor impact? Simple, it was more than simple holy damage, which Dracula ate to the face fine. I mean he is near equal with Satan and stated unkillable to anything except Vampire Killer. Its stated nothing but Vampire Killer can kill Dracula. The only reason people fight Dracula is to weaken him and keep him weaken. Nothing can "kill" Dracula. Vergil gets no such accolades. So the end argument comes down to healing abilities and who can out last who. that is simple, its Dracula.

eh what? Did you even read the scan you copy and pasted? They thought it was one thing and turned out to be something else. No one cares about speculation, we care about evidence. Evidence is that it was an explosion of holy energy, something that doesn't harm Dracula at all. It doesn't mean Dracula could survive a nuclear bomb or MOAB. Different energy types can cause similar types of damage, yet it doesn't mean a being can survive all of them. There's a large difference between 100 tons of TNT vs 100 Tons of impact force. etc. etc.

It's a useless feat because Vergil isn't going to attack Dracula with Holy weapons at all.

Vampire Carmilla alone, who is inferior in all ways to the Holy Knight amped + Vampire amped + Forgotten One amped Dracula showed insane instant healing on par with ANYTHING Dante much less Vergil shown.

Not even close. Vergil has survived far worse. After being defeated by Dante and blowing up, Vergil still survived that but these defeats had worn down his body and made him weak.

She still had a visibile injury on her stomach.

Pierced in the back, and thrown through steel doors. Dracula gets right back up. No issues.

Again, not impressive in terms of impact. Vergil can easily go through much worse in terms of flying right through multiple Qliphoth tree parts.

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Dracula is stabbed through the stomach and pinned in place. Rips himself off and keeps fighting. No issues.Nothing vergil has is better, though I argue Dracula has better healing and control of his physical body.

Funny how both Dante and Vergil have been stabbed by much larger things and gotten out of them quicker with less fuss.

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Vergil in fact implies that stabbing Dante in the head wouldn't kill him.

Dracula is fully able to break his body down to blood and reform from blood. he pretty much has cellular to molecule level control as he can generate clothing from blood.

This is vampire powers. It has nothing at all to do with regeneration nor does "body manipulation" have anything to do with a 1 v 1 battle. Listing a bunch of powers isn't great.

Even if by some miracle Vergil manages to "tax" Dracula healing factor, he can fully restore his body and healing with a good old fashion vampire bite.

As expected, Dracula ability to drain the blood of a human can happen in seconds.

Not gonna happen. Dante & Vergil's blood is directly toxic to Vampires. (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Not only would Dracula have a hard time actually biting someone much faster than him. He'll try biting someone with toxic blood that would just heal and cauterize his own wounds quickly. Good thing Vergil is a half demon, not base weak human.

Well so much for that argument of Vergil outlasting Dracula.

Please. Dante and Vergil spend over 1 month in hell constantly battling each other and other demons with no food and water. Vergil can last very long.

Too bad Vergil speed is not really much a factor here.

You're gonna lose this one really bad. Vergil's bread and butter is speed.

Yeah thats some nice Mach 5 maybe shit.

None of those are his best nor did you quantify any of them. Wtf?

Whirlwind

Press and hold [Block] and [Direct Attack] to spin the Void Sword at high speed, attracting small nearby enemies to line them up. Move the [Move] stick toward them to knock them down with a quick charge movement.

Void Kata

Brandish the Void Sword at great speed sucking in nearby small enemies and then punish them with a storm of cuts.

Vengeful Cut

Series of whirling, spinning attacks that can damage all enemies in the area. You can finish the combo sequence at any time by pressing the [Area Attack] button again to deal a sadistic cut that works as a Block Breaker.

- Lords of Shadow 2

Some game descriptions of the moves below.

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Alucard is able to jump and swing his sword so fast that it generates several blade effects, with a speed that makes a wind vortex that sucks enemies into it.

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Alucard generating several afterimage sword thrusts.

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Alucard runs in a circle so fast to create several after image blurs. Best part is this move explains specifically its speed related!

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Alucard seems to be swing his sword in one attack, but generates several after image strikes.

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What appears to be one sword strike is several sword strikes.

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Dracula is able to manifest after images with his gauntlets. creating whats seems a whirlwind of fire attacks. At the end of the move he explodes several after images of strikes.

Sadly none of these are even sonic speeds. Ouch. Do you even know how slow this is in comparison to Vergil?

The Dark Crystal unleashes a uber powerful Demon, possibly Angel dragged to hell from in game clues, that attacks and kills just about every foe in game. It seems to move at insane high speeds around the target, and drains it of life. that is how it is portrayed in the story cut scenes of the game. Yet when Dracula faces this being...

Whole bunch of dead gifs that aren't showing anything close to the speed of sound.

I mean the real wank speed feat for Dante or Vergil is the "Demon moves like Lightning" quote, and we see Vergil react to Blitz "lightning" attack making him mach 200.

No. Dante actually blocks lightning in DMC5, from Griffon, who came from Vergil's head. Vergil can easily do the same.

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Now, I'll be cordial with you. Lightning timing feats suck because this isn't "real lightning". Vergil has better anyway.

well by that counter, her is Lady, a mere slight super human at best, reacting to Vergil fine. Yes I know this particular YT vid is dubbed with kick ass RE4 dialogue but I dont care, its the visual I was looking for to prove the point.

https://youtu.be/x9VuBEiFgPo?t=125

Are you f'ing trolling me? You literally posted a Resident evil 4 mod and tried passing it off as a Devil May Cry game. WTF?

Lady is weak. When Vergil fought her, he easily defeated her.

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Add to this if we REALLY want to wank such things, Dracula as human and Vampire Lord already react casually to lightning level attacks of foes fine to begin with.

This is electricity. You can literally see it come from the characters themselves. Holy hell.

Satan moves at such speed the air leaves a fiery trail,

Satan is already on fire before he even starts moving in that gif because Satan has fire powers. He isn't moving so fast he caught on fire.

So much for that wank. Oh wait, Vergil is also scale able to Dante (debunk that already) and Dante is mach 25 base on this feat.

Dracula is slamming the cross at full speed on the possessed Alucard. Satan retreats at full speed out of Alucard with the world standing still, same Satan who already moves at re entry level speeds. Dracula notices this, and reacts in a split moment blitzing Satan.

For one. "re entry speeds" don't exist. They depend entirely on how fast you are to get into the atmosphere. Two, you only need to be mach 5 to start catching on fire in the atmosphere. Something Dante and Vergil could do as teenages with enough acceleration.

Now lets get on the real speed feats that Vergil has and Dracula doesn't.

You did not post one speed feat for Dracula that puts him at Mach 1, which is a speed Vergil is far above.

Cuts a human into 4 pieces and decapitates 5 others with one pull of Yamato. (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Cuts Rabby into 5 pieces (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Dodges then cuts a bullet into six pieces and reflects them back at Dante (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 2: "Vergil")

Swings his sword few times before Ebony's bullets reach him, catches the bullets with Yamato, lays them each on the ground and throws them back at Dante with equal force. This is a real hypersonic feat here.

Finally, Dracula has no speed feat even coming close to Judgement cut end.

Judgment Cut End - Vergil slashes opponents with super speed.

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Both the Void Sword and chaos Gauntlets are objects that defy physics

So they're video game weapons?

Vergil Inability to Fly vs Dracula's Flight

Vergil can fly. What the hell are you talking about. Matter of fact, he can create sonic booms in flight which means he's moving faster than sound. Something you haven't posted at all for Dracula.

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The weapon is able to flash freeze foes into loses including the strongest Shadow Lord that was Zobek, aka death, himself.

This freezing isn't anywhere faster than the freezing of Bael who couldn't stop or kill Vergil.

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This completely argument completely depends on Dracula stabbing through Vergil even though Vergil is an order of magnitude faster than him.

Wow, a character way physically weaker than Vergil breaking through the ice. Oh my god Vergil can't do that. rolls eyes.
Wow, a character way physically weaker than Vergil breaking through the ice. Oh my god Vergil can't do that. rolls eyes.

Thus allowing Dracula serious advantage in range and slowing Vergil down more. There is also all these AOE ice attack that can catch Vergil flat footed.

Teleportation is a hard counter to all of these low range attacks.

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Another huge factor that leads to a easy GG is Dracula ability to simply mind control Vergil. mind Control is not a huge thing in DMC lore, and Vergil may see through illusions one time in manga, thats not a mind control feat.

Not only did you show zero mind control feats in these random gifs, mind control means you must enter the mind of someone, and Vergil already has feats breaking out of someone entering his mind. Something Dracula didn't do in battle.

If I knew you were going to be someone who trolls with mods of other games, steals other people's respect thread's verbatim, doesn't know half of what he's talking about and didn't even play the Devil may Cry games. I wouldn't have made this thread.

Vergil flat out stomps Dracula.

Avatar image for tourneymaster
#15 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan:

For one, this is wrong. He has many feats of his own without scaling and I've compiled all of them.

Wrong again. By DMC5, Vergil and Dante are explicitly equal.

They spent over 1 month in hell fighting each other to a draw. They are twin brothers with the exact same power source.

Not sure you understand what Equals mean. If they were equals Vergil would not lose to Dante every freaking game of DMC3, DMC times in a row, and Dante was weaker and Vergil called it in DMC5 when they fought. If equals then they should always stalemate. They dont. Only time Vergil had a clear win was first battle shown in DMC3 they had. After that down hill. Just pointing out the actual outcomes of the who wins > empty statements. Know what I mean?

That is not the size of an SUV. Where do you pull these figures from? a respect thread?

Really your complaint is I relate the size to a SuV? Thats your complaint? not that stone of that size is in the 20-30 ton range? Thats it? Ok then.

It made cracks in the floor and raised the ground. Again, inferior.

It wrecked the whole stone work of the entire castle floor. Superior.

It's funny that you ask for quantification yet there is zero quantification here. Like Holy hell, you're directly copying and pasting everything from @sirfizzwhizzrespect thread. How rude and terrible.

Pssst, let lend you on a secrete my mate. I am @pokergeist@sirfizzwhizz. You must be new around here. Those are my respect threads. For future arguments we may have wink wink.

He's breaking chains from their hinges. There is no 1000 ton of force being applied here. What the hell are you talking about?

The solid thcik iron of the mooring busted is well over any strength Vergil shown as far as I seen.

At a base level, what Vergil can withstand scaling from Dante. The Savior punch is easy.

I debunk the savior feat. It was already being depowered via Nero in mid swing. Its a crap feat to quantify, and again you prove my point, you cannot Quantify Vergil without scaling to his superior brother at the time. Thats the issue.

Dante and vergil cut down the Qliphoth tree at the end of the game in hell.

For reference, this is the size of the demon tree as it kept growing.

We are given a better shot Dante, Vergil & Nero after their fight at the top of the tree.

Dante and vergil cut down the demon tree at the end of the game in hell.

Vergil believed he was fully capable of doing it on his own and he's not one to lie.

Time frame is given so we know they arrived and cut down the tree roughly at the same time as Nero arrived in Redgrave city to kill demons at 6:26 pm because nero sees that the tree was cut down, whittled away and falling before he finished killing demons.

You can still see the bottom of the tree showing that they cut the tree. The roots you actually destroy throughout the game from the qliphoth also look different, they have red portions in them.​

Ok, so they "cut it". Not lifted it, broke it with their strength, ect. They relied on the magical slice through most things with ease weapons to cut through a large tree. I mean Dante did this with Yamato.

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Why is this impressive as a strength feat? Its a weapon feat more than anything.

Something vergil can do. His body is literally so hot that it has blue flames. Imagine trying to burn someone that is hot enough his body is flaming blue by using flaming red fire. Not gonna do anything.

Unimpressive again. An explosion only means that he'll be feeling a very small amount of that energy given Dracula's size (the size of a human). Breaking a floor of a building is not impressive.

Thats fair enough, I have no doubt Vergil has replicated what Dracula has in damage soak. I said as such, its who healing factor out lasts whose.

eh what? Did you even read the scan you copy and pasted? They thought it was one thing and turned out to be something else. No one cares about speculation, we care about evidence. Evidence is that it was an explosion of holy energy, something that doesn't harm Dracula at all. It doesn't mean Dracula could survive a nuclear bomb or MOAB. Different energy types can cause similar types of damage, yet it doesn't mean a being can survive all of them. There's a large difference between 100 tons of TNT vs 100 Tons of impact force. etc. etc.

It's a useless feat because Vergil isn't going to attack Dracula with Holy weapons at all.

The fact is was not simply holy damage and had a kinetic and fiery damage effect to it. If it was pure holy damage then it would work like some of the pure holy damage attacks. The very clouds were push away by the blast around the blast. It was more than holy damage as you like to brush it off as. Otherwise there be no side effect of the damage if pure holy much like the damaging holy attack Belmont had use with some of the Light Magic attacks. The feat just shows what force of damage soak Dracula has at his highest end. A high end, but I know thats what your relying on, high ends as well. So its worth bringing up.

Not even close. Vergil has survived far worse. After being defeated by Dante and blowing up, Vergil still survived that but these defeats had worn down his body and made him weak.

She still had a visibile injury on her stomach.

Vergil did not survive, he was done after that fight and return to Mundus as his little bitch boy. As for Carmilla, she had no injury visible. She was punch against with a stake in the gut after said attack.

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No damage, no hole, no bleeding seconds after the tower impalement. Just a blood stain where the damage was. Gabriel then runs up to her, stabs her again in the heart with his Vampire Killer, and still had to put alot of effort to pierce the heart then too.

Again, not impressive in terms of impact. Vergil can easily go through much worse in terms of flying right through multiple Qliphoth tree parts.

Funny how both Dante and Vergil have been stabbed by much larger things and gotten out of them quicker with less fuss.

Vergil in fact implies that stabbing Dante in the head wouldn't kill him.

Im not trying to impress you with these particular feats. If you read my arguments, which you seem not to, I stated how stabbing and heart destruction like feats have no effect on either side. Why mention its not impressive when its just showing both sides can do the same healing feats and admitted as such already? Your trying to hard to dismiss feats than show something better.

This is vampire powers. It has nothing at all to do with regeneration nor does "body manipulation" have anything to do with a 1 v 1 battle. Listing a bunch of powers isn't great.

You can say its vampire powers all you like. Its a level of bodily control your fav has no feat comparison too. In the other games of castlevania Dracula does the same like reduce to bloody mist, head decapitation, ect and yet OG game Dracula simply reforms. The fact that LoS Dracula is un killable by anything outside the Vampire Killer, which is stated multiple times in game, goes to prove that. Hell he was stab with a lesser Combat Cross by Simon, thought dead when he turn to dust and only reform shortly after for the next game of the story. Its superior to Dante or Vergil period.

Not gonna happen. Dante & Vergil's blood is directly toxic to Vampires. (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Not only would Dracula have a hard time actually biting someone much faster than him. He'll try biting someone with toxic blood that would just heal and cauterize his own wounds quickly. Good thing Vergil is a half demon, not base weak human.

Oh so their toxic to vampires? Good thing Dracula is not just a normal Vampire, much less a shit version of DMC vampires. He is the most powerful demon being in his universe, and un killable except for Vampire Killer. Your forgot already Dracula vampire side is not his power, just a side effect. His real power is the Forgotten Ones (again a guy equal to Satan pretty much) powering his abilities which is why he does things no other Vampire in the game can ever do. Much less the weak ass ones from DMC you showed.

Please. Dante and Vergil spend over 1 month in hell constantly battling each other and other demons with no food and water. Vergil can last very long.

Well there was the whole story of LoS 2 game where Dracula spend 1000s of years with no blood or food, halfway dead from a piece of Vampire Killer in his heart, and was still kicking ass when he awaken. Point to Dracula again....

You're gonna lose this one really bad. Vergil's bread and butter is speed.

Not at all, your going to wank Vergil speed, ignore the high ends or scaling of Dracula, and try to claim victory. I been through all these arguments before, and its nothing I have not counter or debunked before.

Sadly none of these are even sonic speeds. Ouch. Do you even know how slow this is in comparison to Vergil?

Oh yes, anytime you can create a after image your well above sonic speeds. Nice try lol. Nothing you can show for Vergil is anymore more impressive and can be downplayed as well. hell on Space Battles, KMC, and many other forums it has been. Your attempts be no different ;)

I mean the real wank speed feat for Dante or Vergil is the "Demon moves like Lightning" quote, and we see Vergil react to Blitz "lightning" attack making him mach 200.

No. Dante actually blocks lightning in DMC5, from Griffon, who came from Vergil's head. Vergil can easily do the same.

Now, I'll be cordial with you. Lightning timing feats suck because this isn't "real lightning". Vergil has better anyway.

Well hot damn, you admit bullshit wankery and call it out yourself. I tip my hat to ya here. You have class. Porbaly more than me im wiling to admit. Seriously though...

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Thats refreshing to see a possibly reasonable DMC fan debating here.

Excuse me, been years since I touch the game and didnt realize that was totally a mod. I truly screwed up with my rush and lazy attempt to find the video. Give me a second to re cap the entire game cinematics to find the feat...... ah here it is. Vergil weapon unable to easy cut through Lady's bazooka or able to casually speed blitz hundred ways to Sunday in one move. Thats what i wanted to show.

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Lady is weak. When Vergil fought her, he easily defeated her.

Beat her? Sure. he could easy beat her. Im just asking where is the wank ass Yamato cuts through anything spiel when it fails to cut through a bazooka. Where is the mach 200+ Vergil or even mach 20+ Vergil to dice lady 20 times in a split second? Never happen thats why. He is not the speedster pushing multiple machs anymore than Gabriel is the point.

This is electricity. You can literally see it come from the characters themselves. Holy hell.

I agree, but you do realize Electricity travels 1/100 speed of light yes? that is with copper wires and lots of interference to the speed. Lightning from sky to ground is also only Mach 200, you know that right? Electricity and light are the same thing as ER, you knew that right? In other words electrcity flowing from the air is as fast as the initial strike of lightning in the end. http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2910 Thats the point. Whether its dodging lightning form the sky for reacting to free flowing electricity from someones hand like insane version of static shock, either way the speed of either feat is high end wankable bullshit, and comparable as a result. Thats the issue I was pointing out that you seem unable to comprehend just now.

Satan is already on fire before he even starts moving in that gif because Satan has fire powers. He isn't moving so fast he caught on fire.

For one. "re entry speeds" don't exist. They depend entirely on how fast you are to get into the atmosphere. Two, you only need to be mach 5 to start catching on fire in the atmosphere. Something Dante and Vergil could do as teenages with enough acceleration.

And? Dante';s feat is also something where his sword catches fire from being shot with magical bullets, bullets that travel at impossible faster than Mach 20+ speeds, and Dante himself is not on fire catching said sword. none of the science matches up, but that does not stop DMC wankers calcing the feat Mach 20+ base on re Entry speeds. Your point?

You see what I am doing here is knocking out the tired debunk feats of wankery that been said all the time before. My goal with the wankery feats thus far is to show readers and yourself that these characters are really style over substance. Rule of cool in feats more than anything. They should all be at best hyper sonic, and thats pushing it. Thus there is no real speed gap outside wankers of rule of cool nonsense. I expect no better from you, though I will give you credit, you are more reasonable than others in the past I debated against. So thumbs up there.

Now lets get on the real speed feats that Vergil has and Dracula doesn't.

You did not post one speed feat for Dracula that puts him at Mach 1, which is a speed Vergil is far above.

Cuts a human into 4 pieces and decapitates 5 others with one pull of Yamato. (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Cuts Rabby into 5 pieces (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 1: "Dante")

Dodges then cuts a bullet into six pieces and reflects them back at Dante (Devil May Cry 3: Manga - Code 2: "Vergil")

Swings his sword few times before Ebony's bullets reach him, catches the bullets with Yamato, lays them each on the ground and throws them back at Dante with equal force. This is a real hypersonic feat here.

Actually more like mach 4 really as some have calc it. You have time, distance between each fired round, time and distance from Vergil, and the fact the Bullets only travel at best Mach 2, with large caliber ones Mach 1 range like Dante own large size bullets.

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Finally, Dracula has no speed feat even coming close to Judgement cut end.

Judgment Cut End - Vergil slashes opponents with super speed.

Ah yes, that is one great feat. One. just... the one. But yeah that is one good one. Yet all the others are more than comparable to what I shown. I mean, that one move been useful on someone I know. Aint that right Lady?

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I kid I kid lol In all seriousness though, these feats are comparable enough in feats of speed and its effects between Dracula and his inferior son Alucard.

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These feats are pretty close. What seems like one strike is several dozen, or generating multiple after images and wind vortexes that lift and toss around 1000s of pounds foes with the speed of sword strikes. VERY comparable.

So they're video game weapons?

Huh? Im not sure if you trying to make a joke or ask a question here?

Vergil can fly. What the hell are you talking about. Matter of fact, he can create sonic booms in flight which means he's moving faster than sound. Something you haven't posted at all for Dracula.

Really? Faster than Satan who Dracula already scales to when he blitz Satan?

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Not at all. Also Vergil cannot really fly when he is limited to Devil Form which is in itself a time/energy limiting power. So I dont see how its the same.

The weapon is able to flash freeze foes into loses including the strongest Shadow Lord that was Zobek, aka death, himself.

This freezing isn't anywhere faster than the freezing of Bael who couldn't stop or kill Vergil.

Too bad Bael freezing is not impressive by feats. It does not freeze anything solid, just leaves a coat of ice :/ meanwhile Void Sword steals your life force and freezes someone as powerful as Death solid till he shatters.

This completely argument completely depends on Dracula stabbing through Vergil even though Vergil is an order of magnitude faster than him.

Too bad i debunk the speed claims. They are as I said to begin with comparable.

Teleportation is a hard counter to all of these low range attacks.

Considering Vergil is a strict close combat fighter, its a major factor.

Not only did you show zero mind control feats in these random gifs, mind control means you must enter the mind of someone, and Vergil already has feats breaking out of someone entering his mind. Something Dracula didn't do in battle.

Vergil never broke mind control, he broke a illusion. He never was psychically mentally control against his will in that feat. He was mentally shackeld by Mundus fine though lol. You have NO COUNTER here. Dracula can not only mentally enslave him, reshape him, or just possess him and remake him into Dracula himself. No counter. that is very much GG.

If I knew you were going to be someone who trolls with mods of other games, steals other people's respect thread's verbatim, doesn't know half of what he's talking about and didn't even play the Devil may Cry games. I wouldn't have made this thread.

Sigh, if i knew you were a total new guy on this forum, dont know those are my respect threads,, and still failed to provide proper counters to multiple forms of hax Vergil has no way to consistently deal with, then I would be remotely swayed by your attempt of arguing Vergil beating Gabriel in any majority of fights. Also lol again at nerfing Dracula by taking away his Castle that is tied to his existence. I still think that was a good move on your part. You have to give Vergil some chance in hell lol.

Dracula still wins this comfortably. The only possible argument you have is one speed feats while 99% of the rest can be match or surpass. Thats it. Otherwise you need to scale to Dante, and Vergil still limited in his Devil Form having a time limt, as well no answere to half the Hax Dracula has. Dracula still far superior in regen and immortality feats too. You tried, A for effort though.

Avatar image for jashugan
#17 Edited by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster:

Not sure you understand what Equals mean. If they were equals Vergil would not lose to Dante every freaking game of DMC3, DMC times in a row, and Dante was weaker and Vergil called it in DMC5 when they fought. If equals then they should always stalemate. They dont. Only time Vergil had a clear win was first battle shown in DMC3 they had. After that down hill. Just pointing out the actual outcomes of the who wins > empty statements. Know what I mean?

Wrong.

They very much "stalemate" Did you even play DMC5?

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Really your complaint is I relate the size to a SuV? Thats your complaint? not that stone of that size is in the 20-30 ton range? Thats it? Ok then.

20 - 30 tons is paultry in comparison to vergil.

It wrecked the whole stone work of the entire castle floor. Superior.

The solid thcik iron of the mooring busted is well over any strength Vergil shown as far as I seen.

That isn't even a 100 ton impact which is worse than what Vergil can easily block. Again, you must provide better.

Pssst, let lend you on a secrete my mate. I am @pokergeist@sirfizzwhizz. You must be new around here. Those are my respect threads. For future arguments we may have wink wink.

Wtf? So you got banned and came back? Tsk tsk tsk. Still using terrible arguments across sites I see.

I debunk the savior feat. It was already being depowered via Nero in mid swing. Its a crap feat to quantify, and again you prove my point, you cannot Quantify Vergil without scaling to his superior brother at the time. Thats the issue.

Sigh, wrong again.

Dante blocking the punch occurs at the same time as you can see cutscenes prior to the one you posted going back and forth with both of them fighting the savior. If Dante's fight occurred afterwards, the savior wouldn't have even thrown a punch because it would've lost power before it could do so. It's literally shown that the savior will react immediately something happens to it's power source, shown when Dante rescues Nero. If we went with your theory that Nero removed his final power source before he even threw a punch, he'd have stopped moving right then and there.

The back and forth of events happening at the exact same time isn't limited to DMC4, it is done again in DMC5.

There are two power sources in the Savior and one controller. One of the sources gets removed and we immediately see the Savior respond. Your theory is that the final power source of the savior is removed yet the savior kept moving, which your "headcanon" contradicts what was shown before hand. You have no grounds to stand on and you are repeatedly ignoring evidence to make a non-existent point.

Ok, so they "cut it". Not lifted it, broke it with their strength, ect. They relied on the magical slice through most things with ease weapons to cut through a large tree. I mean Dante did this with Yamato.

Why is this impressive as a strength feat? Its a weapon feat more than anything.

Holy hell, are you dumb? You know that to cut anything you must apply force to it, right? The larger the thing you're cutting the greater the amount of force. Force = Mass x acceleration. Dante and Vergil would need to use their strength to apply enough force to cleave through a multi-hundred meter wide tree. Come on man, use your brain.

The fact is was not simply holy damage and had a kinetic and fiery damage effect to it. If it was pure holy damage then it would work like some of the pure holy damage attacks. The very clouds were push away by the blast around the blast. It was more than holy damage as you like to brush it off as. Otherwise there be no side effect of the damage if pure holy much like the damaging holy attack Belmont had use with some of the Light Magic attacks. The feat just shows what force of damage soak Dracula has at his highest end. A high end, but I know thats what your relying on, high ends as well. So its worth bringing up.

All this is explaining holy magic. Holy magic can do everything you mentioned. Holy magic does not affect Dracula. It can be a high end if you want it, but it means zero in this battle because Vergil isn't attacking with Holy magic.

For an example. In DBZ, they use KI for everything. It's mumbo jumbo spirit magic. It can destroy far more than anything we have in the real world, but if used against a character immune to KI, it doesn't mean other characters can't harm said character.

Vergil did not survive, he was done after that fight and return to Mundus as his little bitch boy.

Citation.

She was punch against with a stake in the gut after said attack.

That's a large gash on her stomach, hence a large bleeding injury.

Its a level of bodily control your fav has no feat comparison too.

Doesn't need to. Vergil doesn't need to transform himself to blood.

In the other games of castlevania Dracula does the same like reduce to bloody mist, head decapitation, ect and yet OG game Dracula simply reforms.

Don't care. This is explicitly Lords of Shadows Dracula per the op. Read.

Hell he was stab with a lesser Combat Cross by Simon, thought dead when he turn to dust and only reform shortly after for the next game of the story.

That counts as a loss. If someone kills you and you reformed years later in the next game, you lost the fight. It's irrelevant to battle because Vergil isn't going to wait for years for Dracula to come back and fight him.

Oh so their toxic to vampires? Good thing Dracula is not just a normal Vampire, much less a shit version of DMC vampires. He is the most powerful demon being in his universe, and un killable except for Vampire Killer. Your forgot already Dracula vampire side is not his power, just a side effect. His real power is the Forgotten Ones (again a guy equal to Satan pretty much) powering his abilities which is why he does things no other Vampire in the game can ever do.

So pretty much, you're admitting that biting and drinking Vergil's blood will harm Dracula, if he even gets to do so. You didn't counter the argument at all. You just said "Dracula is powerful", which has nothing to do with him drinking toxic blood nor does it have anything to do with him fighting an opponent who can heal from a bite.

Well there was the whole story of LoS 2 game where Dracula spend 1000s of years with no blood or food, halfway dead from a piece of Vampire Killer in his heart, and was still kicking ass when he awaken. Point to Dracula again....

This is not a combat related endurance feat. Dracula didn't fight for 1000 years straight, he was pretty much in a coffin for a 1000 years, woke up, and then got blood to get his powers back up. Again, irrelevant to battle.

Oh yes, anytime you can create a after image your well above sonic speeds.

citation needed

Many non-sonic speeds characters leave after images like Guts and Dracula here.

Space Battles,

Vergil beats Dracula there and so does Dante. Too bad you don't post there anymore.

Excuse me, been years since I touch the game and didnt realize that was totally a mod.

Stop lying. No one cares about whatever wank you saw on other sites, counter my arguments or leave the thread.

I agree, but you do realize Electricity travels 1/100 speed of light yes? that is with copper wires and lots of interference to the speed. Lightning from sky to ground is also only Mach 200, you know that right? Electricity and light are the same thing as ER, you knew that right? In other words electrcity flowing from the air is as fast as the initial strike of lightning in the end. http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2910Thats the point. Whether its dodging lightning form the sky for reacting to free flowing electricity from someones hand like insane version of static shock, either way the speed of either feat is high end wankable bullshit, and comparable as a result. Thats the issue I was pointing out that you seem unable to comprehend just now.

It's not. It's magic electricity coming from some characters and you have done nothing to quantify the speeds of the spells or how fast Dracula must be to block them.

And? Dante';s feat is also something where his sword catches fire from being shot with magical bullets, bullets that travel at impossible faster than Mach 20+ speeds, and Dante himself is not on fire catching said sword. none of the science matches up, but that does not stop DMC wankers calcing the feat Mach 20+ base on re Entry speeds. Your point?

No one cares what "DMC Wankers" said. Dante accelerated to mach 5 to catch his sword that accelerated to mach 5. Vergil can do the same. You are again being dumb (as expected) and attacking points no one made.

Actually more like mach 4 really as some have calc it.

No one cares. Citation or drop it.

You have time, distance between each fired round, time and distance from Vergil, and the fact the Bullets only travel at best Mach 2, with large caliber ones Mach 1 range like Dante own large size bullets.

And vergil makes 5+ revolutions with his sword before a mach 2 bullet reaches him. That's Mach 5+ speed, hence hypersonic.

I kid I kid lol In all seriousness though, these feats are comparable enough in feats of speed and its effects between Dracula and his inferior son Alucard.

These feats are pretty close. What seems like one strike is several dozen, or generating multiple after images and wind vortexes that lift and toss around 1000s of pounds foes with the speed of sword strikes. VERY comparable.

No they are not. They are ridiculously childing to what Vergil can do with one swing of his sword, let alone the full Judgement cut end.

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Too bad i debunk the speed claims.

You are a fool going by what you think looks cool, not what is quantifiable. Seriously, do better. You have posted zero sonic speeds here at all.

Also Vergil cannot really fly when he is limited to Devil Form which is in itself a time/energy limiting power. So I dont see how its the same.

Are you freaking serious? Vergil is a half demon that can access his half demon powers any time. There is nothing limitting him from flying anytime like he showed throughout DMC5. Play the damn games fool.

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It does not freeze anything solid, just leaves a coat of ice :

Right, just like this? So vergil just breaks out of it.

remember you posted this gif of a weaker character than vergil breaking out of the ice coating. Vergil will easily break out of it if Dracula somehow freezes him.
remember you posted this gif of a weaker character than vergil breaking out of the ice coating. Vergil will easily break out of it if Dracula somehow freezes him.

meanwhile Void Sword steals your life force and freezes someone as powerful as Death solid till he shatters.

More unquantifiable nonesense about "power" when it tells us nothing about how a person deals with being frozen. Vergil has better feats.

Considering Vergil is a strict close combat fighter, its a major factor.

A "close combat fighter" that has combat teleportation. He can easily teleport in and out as he wants.

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Vergil never broke mind control, he broke a illusion. He never was psychically mentally control against his will in that feat. He was mentally shackeld by Mundus fine though lol. You have NO COUNTER here. Dracula can not only mentally enslave him, reshape him, or just possess him and remake him into Dracula himself. No counter. that is very much GG.

This is wrong. Mundus turned Vergil into an Angelo. If you do not know what an Angelo is, an angelo is putting someone into a suit of metal and making that person power that suit. Mundus did not mind control Vergil at all. Matter of fact, DMC5 directly shows us Vergil making both Trish & Lady into Angelo's, it's why he didn't kill them.

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Two can you freaking read. Vergil resisted and defeated someone entering his mind, it wasn't an occular illusion. You posted zero "mind control" feats for Dracula and none of them are relevant in battle.

Also lol again at nerfing Dracula by taking away his Castle that is tied to his existence.

No nerf.

Sigh, if i knew you were a total new guy on this forum, dont know those are my respect threads,, and still failed to provide proper counters to multiple forms of hax Vergil has no way to consistently deal with,

He has no hax at all.

Dracula still wins this comfortably. The only possible argument you have is one speed feats while 99% of the rest can be match or surpass. Thats it. Otherwise you need to scale to Dante, and Vergil still limited in his Devil Form having a time limt, as well no answere to half the Hax Dracula has. Dracula still far superior in regen and immortality feats too. You tried, A for effort though.

Immortality feats are irrelevant in battle. No one cares if someone beats you and you wake up 1000 years later, you still lost. Dracula has no hax that Vergil hasn't dealt with. Vergil has his own feats that I posted equal to Dante.

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#18 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan:

Wrong.

They very much "stalemate" Did you even play DMC5?

Nope. Just 1-4 and I watch others play 5. That Dante in 5 is a has been after seeing the play through. So not effortlessly powerful like he was suppose to be at the end of DMC2, almost like retcon lol. He was old, a has been wash up who no longer made the strongest foes look weak like his hey day of Mundus or Argosax. Ever played the older games? The Demons who ruled the Demon World as kings!? Yet Urizen beat Dante who had help from friends. SMH freaking sad.

So if thats your best example of stalemate, well....

20 - 30 tons is paultry in comparison to vergil.

Probaly, as it was Paultry for Dracula too, who did it one hand. meanwhile I yet see one feat of lifting or tossing 30 tons for Vergil, best you have ais a depowering mid swing from Savior to scale Vergil to, Dante. Since Vergil is LACKING feats.

That isn't even a 100 ton impact which is worse than what Vergil can easily block. Again, you must provide better.

LMAo not even a 100 ton impact my ass. You ever seen 100 tons? I worked as a construction worker and heavy equipment operator. I seen 500 ton objects fall on ship piers with a crash and do way less damage than what was just shown lmao. You clearly have no reference to weight and force of impacts.

Still here is a better idea, show something COMPARABLE for Vergil. I will wait.

Wtf? So you got banned and came back? Tsk tsk tsk. Still using terrible arguments across sites I see.

Tsk sk yourself mate. now I dont think your new, but a alt account yourself and not the quickest person to pick up on things.

Sigh, wrong again.

Dante blocking the punch occurs at the same time as you can see cutscenes prior to the one you posted going back and forth with both of them fighting the savior. If Dante's fight occurred afterwards, the savior wouldn't have even thrown a punch because it would've lost power before it could do so. It's literally shown that the savior will react immediately something happens to it's power source, shown when Dante rescues Nero. If we went with your theory that Nero removed his final power source before he even threw a punch, he'd have stopped moving right then and there.

The back and forth of events happening at the exact same time isn't limited to DMC4, it is done again in DMC5.

There are two power sources in the Savior and one controller. One of the sources gets removed and we immediately see the Savior respond. Your theory is that the final power source of the savior is removed yet the savior kept moving, which your "headcanon" contradicts what was shown before hand. You have no grounds to stand on and you are repeatedly ignoring evidence to make a non-existent point.

Was the savior power sources being disconnected at the time? yes. Head canon nothing about it. It was not even a full power swing period then. The fist of the Savior even stops halfway through the punch.

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Epic fail on your end. You are a DMC wanker and not even that verse in it :/ damn. Hell the best part is damage to the ground is less than what Dracula feat showed lmao. Try harder.

Holy hell, are you dumb? You know that to cut anything you must apply force to it, right? The larger the thing you're cutting the greater the amount of force. Force = Mass x acceleration. Dante and Vergil would need to use their strength to apply enough force to cleave through a multi-hundred meter wide tree. Come on man, use your brain.

Oh calling me dumb now. Thats against site rules. Also a sign of someone who already lost a debate and must resort to name calling. I can use my brain fine unlike some in this debate.... not saying names.... The swords they use can cut through shit like I showed with yamato, yet cutting bark is suppose to impress me more than Dracula lifting and tearing feats vs house size iron objects and shit? Riiiight.

All this is explaining holy magic. Holy magic can do everything you mentioned. Holy magic does not affect Dracula. It can be a high end if you want it, but it means zero in this battle because Vergil isn't attacking with Holy magic.

For an example. In DBZ, they use KI for everything. It's mumbo jumbo spirit magic. It can destroy far more than anything we have in the real world, but if used against a character immune to KI, it doesn't mean other characters can't harm said character.

Holy effect had no effect. The other effects of the attack like kinetic force and heat still harm the Holy Knights who are also immune to holy magic. Still effected the ground thats immune to to holy damage. Thus not strictly holy damage. Deal with it, you lost this argument many times over. The fact your trying to use "headcanon" of DBZ logic to justify your attempt to brush the feat off is just sad too btw.

Citation.

Citation for what? Seeing Vergil DEFEATED as Mundus own words said to Trish lmao. Holy shit....

That's a large gash on her stomach, hence a large bleeding injury.

Yet there is no hole, and no bleeding. At all. Just a blood stain. Yeah you lost again.

Doesn't need to. Vergil doesn't need to transform himself to blood.

I know, he does not, he does not have the control over his body, others bodies, or healing abilities like Dracula.

Don't care. This is explicitly Lords of Shadows Dracula per the op. Read.

Says the guy who needed to NERF Dracula to try and make a argument. Arguments I debunk time and again now and schooled ya in. Good times thus far.

That counts as a loss. If someone kills you and you reformed years later in the next game, you lost the fight. It's irrelevant to battle because Vergil isn't going to wait for years for Dracula to come back and fight him.

I can say the same for Vergil who lost several times to Dante and had to vanish off screen for awhile like in DMC 3 and DMC games lmao. Check mate.

So pretty much, you're admitting that biting and drinking Vergil's blood will harm Dracula, if he even gets to do so. You didn't counter the argument at all. You just said "Dracula is powerful", which has nothing to do with him drinking toxic blood nor does it have anything to do with him fighting an opponent who can heal from a bite.

How did I admit anything? Dracula is far above the vamps in power, and lore to what you shown. Dracula can manipulate the forms and physical bodies of others with his own blood as I shown time and time again. You have no argument here. Just your attempt to convince me your apples are the same as my oranges lmao.

This is not a combat related endurance feat. Dracula didn't fight for 1000 years straight, he was pretty much in a coffin for a 1000 years, woke up, and then got blood to get his powers back up. Again, irrelevant to battle.

Its not a related endurance feat? Its way better endurance feat to what you mention. Better question PROVE that Dante and Vergil battled non stop for 100 years. Show me it. They fought hundred years, where is it stated it was every second and day of non stop action? I never saw that claim. more so when we seen Dante and Vergil tire out as early as DMC3 fighting each other in the final battle scene lmao.

https://youtu.be/EoACTZLM_Qo?t=344

Damn Vergil your healing factor taxed there? breathing heavy, clearly unable to regen to compensate. tired much bro? Oh wait this is the guy who can fight for 100 years no rest, action every step of the way, and yet merely stalemate?Try harder.

citation needed

Citation needed for what? That after images is a sign of sonic speeds? Sure here is one.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216497/how-fast-would-you-have-to-run-to-create-a-mirror-image

Many non-sonic speeds characters leave after images like Guts and Dracula here.

Not at all. guts can be argued super human fast, but in no way does he leave after images same way Dracula does. Dracula not only leaves after images, but generates wind from the motions and speed. Wind that sucks in or throws out 200+ pound enemies easy. Nice try though to low ball. Keep at it.

Vergil beats Dracula there and so does Dante. Too bad you don't post there anymore.

Im not sure why I would continue to post there as I never debated there for Dracula. Nor would I given Space battles is a small community with a very bias fanbases ;) The point is Vergil is argued around hypersonic at best there by people though there is the fair share that push mach 20 to mach 200 guys lol.

Stop lying. No one cares about whatever wank you saw on other sites, counter my arguments or leave the thread.

I counter arguments, and yet you cannot do the same, and keep lyimng on other arguments. Its sad really.

It's not. It's magic electricity coming from some characters and you have done nothing to quantify the speeds of the spells or how fast Dracula must be to block them.

And the same for Vergil and Dante. Your point? oh wait, this whole debate you really had not one point yet. Nvm.

No one cares what "DMC Wankers" said. Dante accelerated to mach 5 to catch his sword that accelerated to mach 5. Vergil can do the same. You are again being dumb (as expected) and attacking points no one made.

Again calling me dumb? I do believe this is against rules, and do believe you again prove unable to really debate without resorting to name calling like a child. Sad indeed. Cannot follow simple rules and debates like a child would on a school yard. I see now.....

No one cares. Citation or drop it.

Whats to Cite? Bullets travel Mach 1-2 at best unless you can prove they move faster at that caliber and size. The time and distance of each round makes the speed gap and reaction more prevalent. Thats how science works. Deal/with it. prove it Mach 5 or drop it mate lmao. Its funny that you want me to prove shit and cite it but you yourself cannot.

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And vergil makes 5+ revolutions with his sword before a mach 2 bullet reaches him. That's Mach 5+ speed, hence hypersonic.

Cite it or drop it lmao.

No they are not. They are ridiculously childing to what Vergil can do with one swing of his sword, let alone the full Judgement cut end.

Thats your bias opinion and I have mine lol. Most of these feats are not quantifiable and all show after image attacks with what seems 1 swing of the blade. Thus comparable. You dont like it as it hurts your argument. I get it.

You are a fool going by what you think looks cool, not what is quantifiable. Seriously, do better. You have posted zero sonic speeds here at all.

More name calling. I am a fool and dumb. Called me dub twice. A fool now too. Truly a person back into a corner.

Are you freaking serious? Vergil is a half demon that can access his half demon powers any time. There is nothing limitting him from flying anytime like he showed throughout DMC5. Play the damn games fool.

Whats that, Devil triggers are timer and no character in DMC shown to fight in Devil mode for any more than a minuet time frame? I accept your concession.

Also calls me a fool again. smh. Your really annoyed now arnt ya?

Right, just like this? So vergil just breaks out of it.

How is Zobek weaker? how is Satans daughter and someone who gave Zobek (Death) and Dracula hell weaker than Vergil? The bottom result is Void Sword has feats of freezing something solid to shatter, and your feat is just a coat of ice. Deal with it :)

More unquantifiable nonesense about "power" when it tells us nothing about how a person deals with being frozen. Vergil has better feats.

Just hax vergil and yourself have no argument for. Thanks for admitting it.

A "close combat fighter" that has combat teleportation. He can easily teleport in and out as he wants.

And yet Dracula can teleport, turn into freezing mist, or just flat out use multiple AOE attacks, and freezing AOE attacks. Yeah that teleport is so useful for Vergil..

This is wrong. Mundus turned Vergil into an Angelo. If you do not know what an Angelo is, an angelo is putting someone into a suit of metal and making that person power that suit. Mundus did not mind control Vergil at all. Matter of fact, DMC5 directly shows us Vergil making both Trish & Lady into Angelo's, it's why he didn't kill them.

Two can you freaking read. Vergil resisted and defeated someone entering his mind, it wasn't an occular illusion. You posted zero "mind control" feats for Dracula and none of them are relevant in battle.

LOL Vergil was being controlled by Mundus. It was his skill and will being used by Mundus against his will. You still SHOWED ZERO feats against direct mental control anyway even if you like to use head canon to ignore that fact. GG.

I posted Dracula possessing people and changing them into monsters with his blood. i posted this and you ignored it every time as you know it wrecks any chance of a lie you can form of Vergil winning. Epic try though.

No nerf.

You put in rules no castle. A entity of itself tied to Dracula's existence and a extension of Dracula. You nerf because you know he wins. that simple.

He has no hax at all.

Dracula has no hax.... all those powers.... not hax....

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Conclusions

  • You called me a fool twice, dumb twice as well. Great debating there mate.
  • you keep asking me to cite things but never do yourself, hyprocrite.
  • You took away Dracula's living castle and try to say you made this with no nerf. Lier.
  • You provided no counter to half the hax abilities and try to pawn it off as Dracula having no hax himself when feats where shown clearly. not sure who your hoping to fool here.
  • You lied about the debunk strength feat and force to scale to said Dante debunk strength feat for Vergil.

You lost. It ok. You came in my other thread with a clear bias, called some of your buddies to back ya in this thread, and i took your arguments down without the need to call you names. Its over now. Im sure you will try to make up more lies to save face, but after this post, you really shown nothing to back your claims outside lies, name calling, and ignoring feats. Yes, DMC wank is alive and well, and people like you are the problem.

Good day mate.

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#19 Posted by assemblesquad (2994 posts) - - Show Bio

A CaV might be an interesting one.

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#20 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@assemblesquad: This was kinda a mini CaV. Base on arguments where do you fall.

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#21 Edited by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster:

Nope. Just 1-4 and I watch others play 5. That Dante in 5 is a has been after seeing the play through. So not effortlessly powerful like he was suppose to be at the end of DMC2, almost like retcon lol. He was old, a has been wash up who no longer made the strongest foes look weak like his hey day of Mundus or Argosax. Ever played the older games? The Demons who ruled the Demon World as kings!? Yet Urizen beat Dante who had help from friends. SMH freaking sad.

So if thats your best example of stalemate, well....

Dante & Vergil are at their peak in DMC5. What the hell are you talking about? The timeline is DMC 3 - DMC1 - DMC2- DMC4 - DMC5.

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Urizen is Vergil's demon half. Urizen was confirmed by the devs to be far more powerful than everyone Dante faced, including Mundus and Argosax.

Probaly, as it was Paultry for Dracula too, who did it one hand. meanwhile I yet see one feat of lifting or tossing 30 tons for Vergil, best you have ais a depowering mid swing from Savior to scale Vergil to, Dante. Since Vergil is LACKING feats.

Dracula was pushing it and showing effort, hence it wasn't paultry. That is far less impressive than anything Vergil can do. Vergil can outright block 700+ tons worth of weight coming at him at 60m/s. That's more impressive than Castlevania.

LMAo not even a 100 ton impact my ass. You ever seen 100 tons? I worked as a construction worker and heavy equipment operator. I seen 500 ton objects fall on ship piers with a crash and do way less damage than what was just shown lmao. You clearly have no reference to weight and force of impacts.

Then quantify it. Quantify the impact. It would still pale in comparison to the calc of Dante withstanding 200000 tons of impact force which Vergil directly scales to.

Tsk sk yourself mate. now I dont think your new, but a alt account yourself and not the quickest person to pick up on things.

I am not an alt account of anyone. I'm boss Jashugan.

Hell the best part is damage to the ground is less than what Dracula feat showed lmao.

Dante blocked the punch, hence most of the energy & force would be Dispersed into Dante himself.

Was the savior power sources being disconnected at the time? yes. Head canon nothing about it. It was not even a full power swing period then. The fist of the Savior even stops halfway through the punch.

If it was disconnected it would've immediately stopped moving beforehand it would've immediately stopped moving. Dante very clearly blocked it before that happened.

I can use my brain fine unlike some in this debate.... not saying names.... The swords they use can cut through shit like I showed with yamato, yet cutting bark is suppose to impress me more than Dracula lifting and tearing feats vs house size iron objects and shit? Riiiight.

So not an argument, like expected. It's the Qliphoth tree, not bark and definitely not the same as a regular tree.

Holy effect had no effect. The other effects of the attack like kinetic force and heat still harm the Holy Knights who are also immune to holy magic. Still effected the ground thats immune to to holy damage. Thus not strictly holy damage. Deal with it, you lost this argument many times over. The fact your trying to use "headcanon" of DBZ logic to justify your attempt to brush the feat off is just sad too btw.

Everything you just posted directly came from a holy attack. It didn't come from anything else. The fact that those same knights died to said attack and Dracula didn't shows they aren't immune to holy attacks.

Citation for what? Seeing Vergil DEFEATED as Mundus own words said to Trish lmao. Holy shit....

For Vergil returning "to Mundus as his little bitch boy." like you claimed

I can say the same for Vergil who lost several times to Dante and had to vanish off screen for awhile like in DMC 3 and DMC games lmao. Check mate.

This literally has nothing to do with what you were talking about. You seem to have forgotten you were talking about immortality.

How did I admit anything? Dracula is far above the vamps in power, and lore to what you shown. Dracula can manipulate the forms and physical bodies of others with his own blood as I shown time and time again. You have no argument here. Just your attempt to convince me your apples are the same as my oranges lmao.

You failed to counter the fact that if somehow Dracula bit Vergil, he would be drinking harmful blood. You literally didn't counter this point at all, you just brought up BS about Dracul being powerful.

Better question PROVE that Dante and Vergil battled non stop for 100 years. Show me it. They fought hundred years, where is it stated it was every second and day of non stop action? I never saw that claim. more so when we seen Dante and Vergil tire out as early as DMC3 fighting each other in the final battle scene lmao.

Great more stupidity. You never saw that claim because I never made a claim that Dante and Vergil fought for 100 years hence I won't be proving something I didn't claim. Read next time.

Citation needed for what? That after images is a sign of sonic speeds? Sure here is one.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216497/how-fast-would-you-have-to-run-to-create-a-mirror-image

Wtf? This isn't proof or evidence. This is a Q&A website directly saying it is not based on physics but biology and how eyes work, hence it isn't about speed at all. Holy hell, can you read? After images have nothing to do with speed, get something quantifiable, nor does a random calc about flash have anything to do with Dracula.

Not at all. guts can be argued super human fast, but in no way does he leave after images same way Dracula does. Dracula not only leaves after images, but generates wind from the motions and speed. Wind that sucks in or throws out 200+ pound enemies easy. Nice try though to low ball. Keep at it.

Generating wind does not equal moving sonic or supersonic speeds. Calc it since you want to claim it.

Im not sure why I would continue to post there as I never debated there for Dracula. Nor would I given Space battles is a small community with a very bias fanbases ;)

lol butthurt because people know Vergil stomps Dracul. It's fine.

The point is Vergil is argued around hypersonic at best there by people though there is the fair share that push mach 20 to mach 200 guys lol.

So Vergil is much much faster than Dracul anyway you want to cut it. Got it.

I counter arguments, and yet you cannot do the same, and keep lyimng on other arguments. Its sad really.

Nah, you make strawmen based on arguments no one in the thread has made.

Deal/with it. prove it Mach 5

Cite it or drop it lmao.

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Vergil was able to spin his sword seven to eight times in the span of the bullets reaching him. A bullet is about 1,700 miles per hour or 760 meters per second. To be able to spin his seven to eight times in the span of that, that would make Vergil be able to spin his sword at about 11,900.5 miles per hour or 5,320 meters per second.

To put that into perspective The ShKAS machine gun is probably the fastest machine gun in the world with a fire rate of 3,000 rounds per minute while various rotary cannons can surpass that, up to 6,000 rounds per minute for the Vulcan cannon and the M-134 minigun.

Vergil can spin his sword at 319,200 meters per minute. You could have five miniguns fire at Vergil, and it would be in his power to block every single shot.

Most of these feats are not quantifiable and all show after image attacks with what seems 1 swing of the blade.

I'll agree here. Most feats in fiction are unquantifiable so we do our best. In this instance, Vergil has actual quantifiable speed feats like I posted.

Whats that, Devil triggers are timer and no character in DMC shown to fight in Devil mode for any more than a minuet time frame? I accept your concession.

You can not accept concession that hasn't been given. More terrible debating.

Please, Dante had an extended boss fight that lasted longer than a minute in Devil Trigger.

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Vergil can turn on and off his devil trigger as he pleases.

How is Zobek weaker? how is Satans daughter and someone who gave Zobek (Death) and Dracula hell weaker than Vergil? The bottom result is Void Sword has feats of freezing something solid to shatter, and your feat is just a coat of ice. Deal with it :)

They have no feats at all comparable to Vergil. Simple.

Vergil will always break out of weak Ice.
Vergil will always break out of weak Ice.

Vergil is way too fast for Dracula to hit.

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Vergil can block the void sword with Yamato without needing to be stabbed.

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Just hax vergil and yourself have no argument for. Thanks for admitting it.

Nothing posted has been hax. wtf.

And yet Dracula can teleport, turn into freezing mist, or just flat out use multiple AOE attacks, and freezing AOE attacks. Yeah that teleport is so useful for Vergil..

So again, nothing Vergil can't and hasn't handled especially given he's fighting a much slower and weaker opponent here. I like how you gave up even posting any speed feats for Dracul.

LOL Vergil was being controlled by Mundus.

This is wildly different from Mind Control. Mundus can have vergil under his control without it being mind control. Don't think I forget why you brought this up. Before the Nightmare (Trish Chapter), the canon prequel to DMC5, directly said Mundus gave Vergil the 2nd half of the amulet soo that Vergil worked for him, no mention of mind control.

I posted Dracula possessing people and changing them into monsters with his blood. i posted this and you ignored it every time as you know it wrecks any chance of a lie you can form of Vergil winning.

Because it is slow and possessing someone through blood is a physical action. Possessing a baseline weak human is not the same as possessing a superior half demon. Hence it isn't a winning strategy, especially given all the characters Dracul didn't use it against in all the lords of shadows games.

You still SHOWED ZERO feats against direct mental control anyway

because you showed no mind control feats.

You put in rules no castle. A entity of itself tied to Dracula's existence and a extension of Dracula.

  • You took away Dracula's living castle and try to say you made this with no nerf. Lier.

and? I didn't give Vergil all the weapons and powers he had either, so what?

  • you keep asking me to cite things but never do yourself, hyprocrite.

Lying isn't good.

called some of your buddies to back ya in this thread

I didn't. I don't know anyone else that entered this thread.

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#22 Posted by Sazzmi (699 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#23 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@sazzmi: This isn't a CaV. He just asked me to open a vs thread between both characters, but if I want to make a CaV should I just change the title and then leave it open for people to vote?

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#25 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster It seems people want this to be a mini-cav. I can't change the title, but if people want to vote for who wins, they can do so since my opposition isn't responding anymore by their last post.

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#26 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan said:

@tourneymaster It seems people want this to be a mini-cav. I can't change the title, but if people want to vote for who wins, they can do so since my opposition isn't responding anymore by their last post.

Im fine with that, but you should be able to change the title clicking the full edit button in top right corner.

if people do vote, this was a shit show argument, so many may just find this more for a drama read, which is fine.

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#28 Posted by RandomGuy287 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

Vergil wins

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#29 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by assemblesquad (2994 posts) - - Show Bio

This might be close, but i'll say Vergil due to dimensional slashes and judgement cut.

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#31 Edited by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

I only know of Vergil, so I don't know who wins.

INB4 VS BATTLES UNIVERSAL VERGIL.

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#32 Posted by Reddsevil34 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#33 Edited by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean-

Dmc4SE Vergil could take this....

Dracula could arguably fight Vergil in Castlevania.

Since it nerfs him.

However- Vergil can literally just slice a hole in reality and say bye and leave Castlevania.

So Gab not having Castlevania doesn't make a difference.

Urmh...

Maybe Gabriel vs Urizen should be brought up first.

99.9% sure Gab can't even beat Urizen.

Last thing he needs is to be fighting End game DMC5 Vergil who has his own Sin DT.

Vergil is laughably faster then Gabriel this is coming from someone who played the crap out of Lords of Shadows 2....

Gabriel can't technically die and stay dead unless you use his Cross on him.

Buuut.

Welp, Vergil is going to Bifurcate him and Gabriel will awaken Centuries from then.

That's a W for Vergil.

Also Vergil's go to move in Dmc5 if Gameplay is any indication is.

"Cut you down"

And he busts out Judgement Cuts and Dimensionally slices your ass.

That's game over for Gab.

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#34 Edited by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Universal likely comes from the fact Mundus Created a Universe within his own dimension then feeled it with clouds.

But Mundus literally stands for " world"

Its a pocket dimension he creates the universe in so I doubt that hardly counts.

Using that High wanked interpretation people could use Urizen is Universal or Universal+

Even though it literally makes zero sense.

At best Urizen can 100% be said to be a world threat as it was said the world was at Jeopardy.

World meaning planet at best.

Otherwise Human Nero is somehow Universal since he could wound Urizen.

That really doesn't make a lick of sense.

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#35 Edited by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

@codevein: Ah, you're back. Well you and me can at least agree on something for once for the most part.

Universal likely comes from the fact Mundus Created a Universe within his own dimension then feeled it with clouds.

I know where the idea comes from, but did he even create that dimension though? (I played DMC 1-4.) I mean for all we know he just teleported them into space, yeah?

But Mundus literally stands for " world"

Well... I'm gonna defend the universal interpretation from this specific argument of yours (despite me not even remotely believing in universal DMC). Mundus's name shouldn't be an indication of his power. Also doesn't the DMC series originate from Japan? You know how broad of a definition they consider the word "world" to be. I can see them likely directly translating Mundus to Sekai, which can mean quite a few things ranging from the Earth, to a universe (world), to all of creation (world).

At best Urizen can 100% be said to be a world threat as it was said the world was at Jeopardy.

Yes, I most definitely consider him a threat to the world (not to be confused with being an actual physical threat/planet buster).

Otherwise Human Nero is somehow Universal since he could wound Urizen.

That really doesn't make a lick of sense.

Indeed.

In the end, the only way you can argue for universal or higher DMC is by scaling ALL of them to Shin Megami Tensei Dante, which means that you must believe that SMT is canon to DMC. While that is very much possible, I really don't want to argue for infinite multiversal and higher DMC characters just by scaling them to SMT Dante, so I refrain from combining the two and treat SMT Dante as his own separate entity (like many others do).

Regardless, Saber gets slapped by Vergil.

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#36 Posted by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Lol where did Saber come from?

Also btw Nero Dante and V are in the Mobile SMT game.

So yeah Composite Dante, Nero and I can't believe I'm saying This V of all people is Multiversal.

Dante in Marvel vs Capcom 3 would also be pretty ridiculous scaling wise as he is the one who beats Jedah.

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#37 Posted by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: And yeah Mundus Created the Dimension.

You see him do it in the cutscene as it unravels about them.

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#38 Edited by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

@codevein: Oh crap, wrong thread. I was confused because the OP and someone else were arguing over Vergil Vs. Dracula in a Saber gauntlet thread and created this as a continuation of their argument in order to prevent derailing. I got confused and thought we were on that old thread. My bad. That's why some of our initial comments were "Saber wins" as a joke referencing the previous thread. LOOL

So yeah Composite Dante, Nero and I can't believe I'm saying This V of all people is Multiversal.

It does sound so very ludicrous doesn't it? Despite it being true. LOL

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#39 Posted by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: How the Hell did Vergil vs Dracula get brought up in a Saber Gauntlet thread????

Lmao

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#40 Posted by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: How though...?

Gabriel has lackluster Swordplay and his whip isn't going to save him from Saber.

However.

Excalibur is stated to be a Holy sword IIRC?

Gabriel is 100% immune to Holy things.

That's why the explosion we see from space did absolutely nothing to him.

All Gabriel has going for him tbh is Immortality.

But its more so in the fact he can die he just won't stay dead.

Centuries later he will Revive unless you use his Combat cross on him.

Still an Incapacitate is a L for him and a W for the opponent.

Vergil got him outclassed in ever regard.

The only Gabriel Remotely capable of fighting him would be Peak Gabriel before he went into a Coma.

Because his cinematic feats are quite impressive.

But nothing to protect him from the sheer Speed advantage Vergil has over him and the fact Yamato cuts through dimensions.

Like I said.

Pretty sure Urizen on his Throne could slap Gab.

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#42 Edited by zgtfreak (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

@codevein: Excalibur is stated to be a Holy sword IIRC?

Yes it is.

I know nothing of Gabriel, so I will refrain from commenting on both Saber Vs. Gabriel and Vergil Vs. Gabriel.

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#43 Posted by CodeVein (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Tbh with you.

And this is really bad to say.

Lords of Shadows 1 Gabriel when he was human actually has far better showings then Lords of Shadows 2 Gabriel.

That's all I'm going to say.

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#44 Posted by Bats16 (501 posts) - - Show Bio

Did I just see somebody say Dante is at his weakest in DMC5 lmao? That's when he's at his strongest by far. The timeline goes DMC3, DMC1, DMC2, DMC4, DMC5. Urizen (who is literally Vergil's demonic half) was explicitly stated by Itsuno to be stronger than Mundus and this was before he even ate the fruit, which made him several times stronger. Dante got whooped by Urizen at the beginning of DMC5 and then easily stomped him (after unlocking his SDT) both before and after Urizen ate the fruit. V then merged with Urizen to bring Vergil back and Vergil and Dante were dead even. DMC5 Vergil scales to anything Dante has done.

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#45 Posted by Tenebrous_Umbra (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan: @tourneymaster:

If I may, you both had some faulty arguments/misinterpretations of each other's arguments (though not many) and both of you seem to occasionally divert from absolute consistency in your arguments when it comes to the rules of debating (like burden of proof, being quantifiable and overall applicable relevance).

For example (and these are just off the top of my head after reading the whole debate), jashugan, saying that Dracula will be harmed by drinking Vergil's blood is fine but the buden of proof is on you to PROVE it would hurt Dracula. Providing the example you did of a vampire demon from the DMC universe isn't enough. For starters, a vampire is not the same as a vampire demon. Secondly, even if they were, the same thing, the different lore in universe does not sufficiently identify Dracula (a Castlevania LoS Vampire) as similar enough to a random fodder vampire demon from the DMC universe. Moreover, that was a fodder level character. Dracula is THE most powerful being in existence minus God himself. In order for you to justifiably claim that Dracula drinking Vergil's blood (or even biting him in general since Dracula has shown a number of different abilities centered around biting people in general, as well as blood sharing and drinking) would be harmful to him, you would have to prove that Vergil's blood is harmful to a true vampire (or at least one that is feasibly comparable to Dracula in both characteristics AND power level - a fodder level being isn't anywhere near enough) and then determine whether any of Dracula's other powers don't affect Vergil instead (for example, Dracula has shown that just by biting other beings (magical, demonic, angelic and more) he can steal their powers as he does with most bosses and mini-bosses in the game). Anything less is insufficient and can be argued.

An example for Tourneymaster (again off the top of my head) would be the "endurance" feat. Vergil and Dante fighting for a month in hell non-stop is a little bit iffy for 3 reasons:

1: They routinely tire each other out battling for no more than a few hours at a time (and that's honestly pushing it considering most of fights I'm talking about happen in game and its more like minutes).

2: It's never explicitly stated that they were fighting back and forth for that whole time (although it IS a fairly safe assumption).

3: It has been implied in the past that, being half demon, Dante and Vergil both get an unconscious/innate amp from being in hell or even in areas highly saturated with demonic energy, empowering them and replenishing them while they fight, drawing out their battles and making it even harder for 1 to overcome the other until they have both reached the utter limits of their abilities. This is backed up by the fact that all their fights in the "real world" or on the mortal plane are far shorter and indeed show them getting tired pretty damn quickly by comparison. This is supposedly why they are able to absorb demonic abilities or energy from other demonic entities and even artifacts of demonic energy.

The thing is, this is still a combat applicable feat. Tourneymaster, your counter to this was Dracula surviving for a century in what is essentially suspended animation and then waking up so weak that a fodder level demon was able to 3 hi him with literally no retaliation from Drac whatsoever. That is NOT a combat applicable feat at all, let alone a better one than Dante and Vergil fighting evenly in hell for a month strait. You'll nedto do a LOT better than that.

In an attempts to at least streamline the debate (even if its just so that other people get more enjoyment of reading it) without you having to rehash and re-write your entire arguments again, may I request that you (jashugan and tourneymaster) each lay out what you feel are the most prevalent advantages Vergil and Dracula hold over the other (respectively - so jashugan do Virgil and Tourneymaster do Drac) that would enable them to win (without going into detail about why said advantage would be a game changer, just as a list). It also saves me typing up a wall of text in response to each and every point you brought up that was slightly faulty or misinterpreted. I do have an opinion on who would win but I have yet to actually play DMC5 myself so I'm hesitant to pass judgement overall until I have at least watched all the cut scenes (as a side note and question, are there any debate applicable feats in DMC5 game play that can't be attributed to game mechanics like say..... the judgement cut??) Obviously that's an actual technique Vergil can use outside of game mechanics but there's context to it. The description clearly states that Vergil can only pull this off in Devil Trigger mode and it requires the utmost concentration. So it's not like it's something Virgil can just pull out whenever he wants, just like the fabled "Dimensional Slash".

In any case, it would be great to hear a condensed version of your arguments because not only have I really enjoyed reading your argument/s, I know I can add something to this for both sides but I worry that if I try to construct a comment based on the entire argument you guys had point for point, it will be like 2 pages long. Look how long this "short" post has turned out to be already......

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#46 Posted by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_umbra:

You should've watched the gif/ played dmc5 before commenting. Judgement cut end can be done outside devil trigger which is why I provided video of vergil doing it outside devil trigger.

The odd thing is asking for evidence then saying something quite faulty yourself. Dracula being powerful doesn't stop him from being negatively affected by consuming corrupted blood.

Unless there's some rule within lords of shadows that dictates power level overrides the negative effects of the body, my points still stand.

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#47 Posted by Tenebrous_Umbra (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan:

Thanks for the reply.

I saw the gif, i was just at work and on my little phone screen it looked like Vergil was transforming into his DT mode while charging the up the Judgement Cut and then transforming back at the end. Now I'm at home and see it on full screen monitor view, it clearly Vergil who is charging up his energy and "focusing" before he actually unleashes the move, not going into DT like I thought. Now I imagine if you get to play as Vergil the game's creators would have limited it to DT only so as not to break the game (making the restriction game mechanics) however, when you're fighting againsthim, he still clearly has to both focus (as the description of the ability says he does) and charge up some kind of energy (which is his demonic energy - the same kind that powers his DT transformation) to do it. Again, not spammable and clearly not something he can bust out on a whim (which is the main point I was making - there's context that makes the ability exactly that, more of a special ability then the consistent standard that he fights at, but I'm on the verge of digressing).

I wasn't asking you for evidence persay, I was pointing out that as you made the claim: Dracula drinking Vergil's blood would be harmful to him, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence to support your claim. Moreover I was specifically pointing out what exactly what criteria that evidence would have to fulfill in order to satisfy that burden of proof. Plus the fact that the evidence you provided was in fact insufficient to fulfill those criteria.

As for being powerful and all that, normally, you'd be right. Normally just being powerful in some way or another (being powerful is a relative and very broad term anyways - eg. a billionaire can be financially and influentially powerful but physically crippled) would not stop Dracula from being harmed by Vergil's blood. However, there are multiple factors to consider here:

1. Why was Vergil's blood harmful to the Vampire Demon to begin with?? Was it because it was a demon and he was half demon so their similar nature had something to do with it?? Or is Vergil's blood inherently toxic?? Let's assume the latter is true and he just has toxic blood. How toxic is it??

2. Dracula is superhuman. He has superhuman durability. By feats, its better by a mile than the durability of some random fodder vampire demon from DMC. Therefore how do you know that Vergil's blood is toxic enough to damage a being as durable as Dracula??

3. More importantly, Dracula has complete control over his own blood an indeed his own body down to the most minute detail. To the point where he can shapeshift into shadows, morph into creatures, smoke/mist, teleport by blatantly disappearing and reappearing at another location and even transform himself into sentient floating blood and even absorb and manipulate blood directly.

4. Just as importantly, Dracula's own blood is totally infused with his power and is a force in unto itself. He has used it to do practically anything in LoS. His Whip is actually conjured directly from his own blood and hardens on impact, he's conjured clothes and armour from it, used it to corrupt holy AND magical relics and destroy them, as a power source for all manner of devices in his castle, as a key to unlock special doors, to corrupt and transform both powerful dark beings, holy warriors and regular human beings into monsters slave to his will and can use it to possess people. In fact, doing this to any mortal being ends up destroying their body in short order because no mortal shell can hope to contain all his power.

5. Most importantly, Dracula has exhibited the ability to gain the powers of other beings/entities by drinking their blood. He's done this to demons and monsters alike so Vergil potentially vulnerable to this.

The point to all these examples is that Dracula has such a fine control of his own body on a physical and magical level and has ways to completely avoid physical effects (what happens to foreign, toxic blood inside him if he turns to mist??) AND his own blood is itself "powerful" in a number of different ways (at the very least it has potent magical energy in it that Drac can manipulate to a number of effects). And because of this, you would have to prove that Vergil's toxic blood would be able to overcome these effects, not be subject to Dracula just NOPEing that blood right out of his body or nullifying its effects with his own blood based powers (that are infinitely superior to Vergil's passive toxicity) and keep in mind the fact that there is a real possibility Dracula may end up gaining Vergil's powers by drinking his blood unless that is either proven or debunked.

Basically, if a character has a specific trait or ability that could potentially inhibit the effectiveness of what you've claimed your character can do, then the burden of proof is on you to provide sufficient evidence to the contrary. But no, there's not such rule in Lords of Shadow 2 that I know of.

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#48 Edited by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_umbra: eh what? There is no demonic energy charging due to judgement cut end being just vergil's super speed. That's what the description says. Said charging can last for one second from the examples provided.

Obviously vergil would be limited by stamina because constantly running around and cutting things takes energy in general.

Ingesting anything toxic will harm you. The only point that could be made is that vergil's blood is toxic to vampires for whatever reason shown by a vampire demon biting dante and dying from it.

Now we can compare said vampire demon to dracula and say dracula is physically superior to it and likely wouldn't outright die to toxic blood like the demon did.

The transforming of the body to blood isn't a counter to ingesting harmful blood. Vergil's blood wouldn't need to overcome the effect of Dracula creating a whip of blood. That's completely unrelated.

It isn't on me to prove a negative.

All this asinine discussion is predicated on dracula somehow getting close enough to an opponent far faster than him to bite said opponents neck.

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#49 Posted by Tenebrous_Umbra (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan:

It’s mildly amusing you chose to single out the blood whip out of all the abilities and trait I mentioned but alright, for a start, is Vergil’s blood toxic enough to harm a being as durable as Dracula? What stops Dracula from simply regurgitating the blood of it’s harmful - using his own blood powers to corrupt Vergil in a process not that dissimilar to creating an Angelo - or worse, gaining Vergil’s powers by biting him?

Accept he’s not that much faster. Vergil may have an advantage in raw speed for a while, but it’s not by nearly enough to say he can completely blitz Dracula in that time. Alucard (who is inferior to Dracula in every way) can pull the same trick Vergil does by drawing his sword in what appears to be a single slash when in fact he’s completed a full combination of attacks, protecting out a multitude of ranged cuts as well as the physical ones. The Judgement cut for all its hype really isn’t that much more impressive than the gifs presented for Alucard above. Judgement Cut IS more impressive, but not by that much.

Finally, do you have any idea how fast you’d have to be able to swing a sword in order to create the updraft necessary to throw a 300 pound object? That’s a crazy amount of speed right there. I may check out some science pages if I get time for the correct equations and do the math. But seriously, i’d wager it’s just as fast at anything Vergil is capable of. Besides, even if it’s not, teleporting is a great counter for speed and so it intangibility.

What I was getting at with the “charging up” is that it takes great focus just like the fabled “Dimension Slash” takes energy or focus to pull off. Combine this with Dracula’s healing factor, damage soak and his aforementioned counters to a speed advantage that really isn’t that large anyway, and Vergil is more likely to run out of the stamina necessary to maintain such high speeds before he does any lasting damage to Dracula. Which brings up another point. That gif is pretty much Vergil’s only speed feat which is decisively better than anything Dracula has and even then, like I said, it’s not by THAT much.

What do you mean?? Which negative do you think I’m asking you to prove?? Also, we’re only talking about Dracula biting Vergil because it was the first example that came to my head when trying to make an entirely different point. You queried it, I questioned and corrected your query and so on and now we’re here. I was never looking for a debate(not quite yet anyways) but it seems to be going that way 😁

Still, my points stand about what you’d have to prove as I listed them and considering, as I’ve just explained, Vergil’s not that much faster anyways and he won’t stay that way too long anyway,Dracula biting him certainly is within the realm of possibility.

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#50 Edited by jashugan (6652 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_umbra:

Sigh

Stop asking questions twice I've answered. Provide evidence for dracul gaining a demon's power just by biting them. Provide evidence of dracul biting someone as fast as vergil and why vergil would allow him to bite him instead of blocking, dodging,teleporting or flying away.

The point of bringing up vergil's toxic blood is that biting vergil isn't a good thing. I don't know how pedantic you are to continue to argue that point without any contrary evidence except "dracul is powerful".

Vergil has quantifiable supersonic and hypersonic feats. Dracul does not. I've gone over this and shown it ages ago.

Perhaps you missed the videos I posted but the dimension slash is a property of yamato. It doesn't take any extra energy which is why dante & nero can do it while wielding yamato. I've posted these videos above.

So quantify Alucard's speed then. Don't ask me if I know x or y thing, provide it yourself and the accompanying videos.

Why did you start replying to me if you weren't going to read the entire thread? The angelo's are created as experiments by putting a powerful being in a suit of armor. This is not remotely similar to a blood whatever.