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#1 Edited by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio
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All fighters in this Gauntlet are at equal power levels. These matches are purely Hand-to-Hand combat, and the only ki technique allowed is flying. Biological techniques like Piccolo's stretchy arms are allowed.

Vegeta is not healed after every round, however, he's being motivated by Bulma, Trunks, and Goku on the sidelines. If he starts losing then their lives will all become at stake.

The Gauntlet:

  • Krillin
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  • Gohan with Z Sword
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  • Beerus
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  • Jiren
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BONUS ROUND!!!

Vegeta still isn't healed. Can he take out Broly?

  • Broly (composite)
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#2 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

Measuring H2H abilities is very difficult in Dragon Ball due to the fact that 98% of all DB fights rely on one character being more powerful than the other. Frieza literally had no H2H experience outside of basic training from his dad and was still able to match and dominate a fight with a martial artist that had at least 20 or so years under his belt at that point. Even when said martial artist was a super sayian. With that said, I’ll likely say Krillin could potentially win in the first round considering that Vegeta’s fighting style is constructed entirely around overpowering his opponent which he can’t do here. Krillin at least has feats of training and raw combat skill as well as being able to keep up with those that are massively stronger than him in the first place.

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#3 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#4 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5519 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears just based on his fight with Kid Buu. Don’t @ me I don’t remember dragonball feats too well

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#5 Edited by Mee09 (5664 posts) - - Show Bio

This list is out of order.

Gohan is the least skilled fighter here. He was just the half Saiyan with the most potential. He should be number 1 regardless of who he's training with at the time. Gohan in the entirety of the series might have 3-5 years of actual martial arts training.

Jiren should probably be number 2 on the list. His actual skill in combat was not emphasized in the Tournament. It was his power. Jiren is a powerhouse with a few interesting techniques that he can't use here.

Krillin should be number 3. In a matchup between him and Goku with even levels of power. It's always been considered a 50/50 fight with Krillin usually having the advantage due to his level of craftiness in a fight which no other Z Fighter has.

Beerus should number 4 due to training with Whis for many millions of years.

I've got no real comment on the bonus round. Skill hasn't been emphasized for Broly although it's clear that he definitely has it otherwise he wouldn't be able to evade Goku and Piccolo's attacks the way that he did. But if Vegeta had his level of power I'm sure he could evade their attacks like that too. When the new movie comes out will see if Broly is mostly a powerhouse or a well rounded fighter. But for now I'd say Vegeta is more skilled but probably doesn't make it to Broly. He shouldn't be more skilled than Beerus and might not make it past Krillin.

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#6 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, he beats Broli, loses to Beerus beats Gohan and loses to Krillin. We are measuring H2H skill here basically.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5c0b19c56d708 (624 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears just based on his fight with Kid Buu. Don’t @ me I don’t remember dragonball feats too well

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#8 Posted by Skrskr (3325 posts) - - Show Bio

Loses to beerus and maybe Krillin

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#9 Posted by MainJP (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

He loses to both Beerus and Krillin.

Beats Gohan, Broli and Jiren who have no impressive skill feats.

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#10 Edited by gunchar16 (1697 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 1 lol.

But to be fair Vegeta would take some rounds after that.

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#11 Edited by Gaoron (8176 posts) - - Show Bio

Vegeta doesn't have any h2h skill feats, it's all scaling to Goku bar that one instance where he remembered Jirens attack pattern and perfectly dodged and countered all of it. He beats Jiren and Broly, loses to the rest (reason for losing to Gohan is mainly due to sword).

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#12 Posted by Amendment50 (15149 posts) - - Show Bio

To be perfectly honest I don't think I would side with Gohan over Krillin

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#13 Posted by DoctorDaMn (884 posts) - - Show Bio

Vegeta is a bitch to fight at equal power levels (see majin vegeta vs ssj2 goku)

OT: I would say he could take a small majority over krillin and goes on to beat everyone else except beerus...

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#14 Edited by AlexTheBoss (16903 posts) - - Show Bio

Without healing in between rounds he probably stops at 2, due to Krillin giving him a tough fight and Gohan having a sword.

100% stops at 3. Beerus somewhat knows UI and fought multiple GoD at once in the manga.

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#15 Posted by Gaoron (8176 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Gohan did showcased some skill in his fight with Lavender. He couldn't sense or see him and still was able to tell his opponents moves.

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#16 Posted by Oreoghoul (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

Without healing in between rounds he probably stops at 2, due to Krillin giving him a tough fight and Gohan having a sword.

100% stops at 3. Beerus somewhat knows UI and fought multiple GoD at once in the manga.

This

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#17 Posted by jashro44 (51979 posts) - - Show Bio

Krillain showed some good tactics and skill during the tournament of power. Particularly during that one spar with Goku and chumping Gohan. We than saw Goku steal his tactics to nearly beat Jiren.

It wasn't purely H2H I guess but dragon ball characters almost always mix ki blasts in with H2H.

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#18 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: @mainjp: How the hell does he stop at Krillin? That's by far the most unlikely thing to happen.

He clears or stops at Beerus.

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#19 Posted by AlexTheBoss (16903 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: Read it again, I didn't not say he stops at Krillin.

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#20 Edited by MainJP (5881 posts) - - Show Bio
@gaoron said:

Gohan did showcased some skill in his fight with Lavender. He couldn't sense or see him and still was able to tell his opponents moves.

Good point. I also didn't factor in the sword which he... has no skill feats with. Yeah, Gohan may take that one.

How the hell does he stop at Krillin? That's by far the most unlikely thing to happen.

He clears or stops at Beerus.

Why'd you just tag us? Other people have said he loses to Krillin. Tag all of us.

Even if you think he doesn't lose he still loses immediately afterwards due to being worn down. Krillin has better skill feats...that's literally it. Vegeta usually brutes his way to a win with a stat advantage. He beat Toppo with a rage boost, was handling Goku in their first fight with a stat gap, beat Zarbon, Jeice and a weakened Ginyu due to Zenkai boosts, beat up Semi-Perfect Cell with a stat advantage, beat up a tired Golden Freeza etc. He's a brawler.

It's like @dimlylitlantern mentioned, Krillin has feats of keeping pace with guys far beyond his strength level:

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Despite the strength gap was able to use ki manip as a distraction to deliver a blow to Piccolo's jaw. Not pure H2H but still impressive.

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And kept surprising the guy even after showing him his true power (which he admitted to on panel) Krillin just got back up and rushed him again.

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Something he did earlier with Goku, using ki as a distraction in order to grab him from behind.

Takes advantage of weaknesses:

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Comes up with tactics on the fly:

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Proven to be Goku's near equal in skill at the 22nd and literally only lost due to Goku abusing his stat advantage to blitz him in the end.

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And later on in the Namek arc is literally equaling Captain Ginyu with skill, the same guy who was pretty much giving Goku a run for his money in the skill department.

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During the T.O.P Goku borrowed Krillin's tactics to try and ring out Jiren and almost succeeding. I don't see him borrowing jack from Vegeta to do zilch.

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#21 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: I was just skimming thread, and yea I still disagree but you gave some good points.

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#22 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Great post!

How do you feel about the fact that Vegeta already anticipated Krillin's tactics once and outsmarted him when he dodged the Destructo Disk as a Great Ape?

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#23 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: Does Vegeta have any feats that are indicative of him being a superior martial artist to Krillin with equalized stats?

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#24 Posted by TheTruthIII (3309 posts) - - Show Bio

How does one even measure "skill" in Dragonball? Literally every fight is decided by who has more raw power or better physicals. I don't recall a single instance where Goku/Vegeta won a fight through sheer skill against an opponent with vastly superior stats. The most we can do is guesstimate based on how long each individual has trained.

Logically, he stops at Beerus since the latter has been under Whis' tutelage for millions of years. He could also stop at Krillin, who is a legitimate martial artist and has more feats than just herp derp powering up to a new level. Broly is just a rage monster with no technique, he should be the first person in this gauntlet IMO. Manga Jiren had decent skill showings of adapting to an opponent that was clearly faster, but with equalized stats Vegeta should still take a small majority.

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#25 Posted by xZone (10339 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at MCU Thor who should be higher

X

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#26 Posted by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern: Clear author and series intent that him and Goku are the best fighters on planet Earth.

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#27 Posted by MainJP (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Great post!

How do you feel about the fact that Vegeta already anticipated Krillin's tactics once and outsmarted him when he dodged the Destructo Disk as a Great Ape?

Great Ape Vegeta catching on to a basic distraction and sneak attack doesn't say a whole lot when you consider his suspicion of Gohan trying to face him by himself.

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Plus, with those big ass elf ears, he probably heard Kuririn's Kienzan. It's not like he knew about Yajirobe.

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Kuririn just has better H2H/skill feats. Vegeta's all about just overpowering his enemies and has no good skill showings worth mentioning. Just compare his performance against Hit with Goku's; just flies in and tries to overpower and gets repeatedly embarrassed. Rince and repeat.

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#28 Edited by terry2012 (9814 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Beerus.

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#29 Posted by Jon_Don (237 posts) - - Show Bio

Dead Stop at Beerus

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#30 Posted by themongoose (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

stops at Beerus

not sure why Gohan has sword he better feats without using one

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#31 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Vegeta has more thoughtful showings of skill under Toriyama then under Toei. In Battle of Gods movie he was the only one to parry some strikes and survive against Beerus in h2h for some seconds. Then Beerus smashed Vegeta and said "the prince is highly skilled but be lacks the power to match me." This is before rage boost. In Super, Rage boost Vegeta was still massively weaker than Beerus but used skill and ferocity to overwhelm him for some time. Now that Vegeta has the same training from Beerus' master, I'd say the two should be close to on par in H2H.

In original Saiyans fight Vegeta outfought Goku H2H and forced Goku to go for more power. After being severely injured he also outfought fresh, rage boost Gohan, and predicted Krillin's strategies. He was a dominant skilled warrior as the saiyan prince back when he was introduced.

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#32 Posted by MainJP (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Vegeta has more thoughtful showings of skill under Toriyama then under Toei. In Battle of Gods movie he was the only one to parry some strikes and survive against Beerus in h2h for some seconds.

I can believe that. His fight against Beerus there was better than the anime.

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In Super, Rage boost Vegeta was still massively weaker than Beerus but used skill and ferocity to overwhelm him for some time. Now that Vegeta has the same training from Beerus' master, I'd say the two should be close to on par in H2H.

In all honesty where's the H2H skill here? He's just throwing a generic flurry of punches:

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Beerus isn't even trying in this fight, there's no real choreography as far as the fight itself goes as it's just Vegeta hammering Beerus the entire time and there's literally nothing to see in the shockwave clashes. Seriously compare the fight choreography here with Goku and Kuririn's fight.

Revisit these videos:

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Meanwhile, Kuririn and Goku are going at it with what appears to be a Kenpo style, parrying each other's strikes, arm grappling, takedowns etc.

What are a bunch of straight punches and frame repeats like in Majin Vegeta vs. Goku? There isn't much to work with.

In original Saiyans fight Vegeta outfought Goku H2H and forced Goku to go for more power.

Vegeta had a huge stat advantage on Goku. Goku was just over 8,000 while Vegeta was 18,000. This is Vegeta's most impressive skill showing in that fight.

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After being severely injured he also outfought fresh, rage boost Gohan, and predicted Krillin's strategies. He was a dominant skilled warrior as the saiyan prince back when he was introduced.

He wasn't severely injured until after the Genki-Dama or when Gohan fell on top of him. What strategy? All he did was kick Kuririn when he was coming from behind to stop Vegeta from hurting Gohan. Unless you're referring to the Genki-Dama which in that case all he did was dodge, he literally just saw it out of the corner of his eye and jumped. There's no real strategy involved, Kuririn just threw the Genki-Dama. He anticipated Kuririn showing up with Gohan (which he admitted to on-panel) and already knew about the Kienzan from earlier with Nappa but that's about it.

Most every other fight he's in is just him dominating his opponent until either:

A. They decide to actually try or transform (i.e. Zarbon, Recoome, Cell, Beerus).

B. He wins.

It's all about stats with Vegeta.

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#33 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: Check out the rest of his fight with Beerus in Super, after that gif. That gif shows Beerus still had much greater power than Vegeta, but then Vegeta uses some unorthodox striking and movement to tag Beerus many times by surprise.

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He moves with Beerus' counterpunch and uses the momentum to power a super-heavy strike that he tags Beerus with by surprise. Then he flanks Beerus and lands another super-heavy strike from behind. Then in the repeated animation exchange Vegeta is clearly forcing Beerus backwards, until the point where he takes Beerus' back again and lands a third heavy strike. The rest of the fight is more repeated animation of Vegeta forcing Beerus backwards, and then surprising him for a final time with the point blank Galick Gun.

Great showing for Vegeta imo. It looks different from young Krillin's fight with Goku, but that's because Vegeta can fly, and also his fighting style is more about landing super-heavy hits one after the other, instead of releasing a flurry of normal strikes. This makes his fighting style the most destructive out of the main cast.

I get that the animation and choreography in young Krillin and Goku's fight was very cool, but think of it this way. Goku was 15 years old then and hadn't had his training with Popo, let alone his training with Kaio. Yet he was still a slightly better fighter then Krillin.
Goku was 24 when he fought Vegeta, and had this to say in the original manga and Japanese anime.

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Vegeta had the higher max power level at this time, but if you read the fight it was a very gradual thing, and Goku and Vegeta were certainly clashing in skill at similar power levels during points. Vegeta was flanking Goku and tricking him over and over again, until Goku of all people resorted to using sheer brute muscle to his advantage.

This makes me think that Vegeta was in a different stratosphere compared to Krillin when they met, and the gap definitely didn't get smaller as the series went on.

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#34 Posted by freesid_stf123 (535 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Beerus.

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#35 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: Goku and Vegeta are the strongest because they have the best stats. A measure of actual fighting skill is rarely compared in DB.

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#36 Posted by Slade-Prime (1245 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at beerus

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#37 Edited by MainJP (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk said:

@mainjp: Check out the rest of his fight with Beerus in Super, after that gif. That gif shows Beerus still had much greater power than Vegeta, but then Vegeta uses some unorthodox striking and movement to tag Beerus many times by surprise.

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He moves with Beerus' counterpunch and uses the momentum to power a super-heavy strike that he tags Beerus with by surprise. Then he flanks Beerus and lands another super-heavy strike from behind.

I had to watch the video in order to make the two Vegeta gifs. The Goku vs. Kuririn gifs were from Google.

I dunno, I didn't feel like it was all that impressive considering Beerus doesn't try. He's. Not. Doing anything. He literally just let Vegeta hit him a bunch to see if he was as powerful as the Super Saiyan God he heard about.

@the_hajduk said:

The rest of the fight is more repeated animation of Vegeta forcing Beerus backwards, and then surprising him for a final time with the point blank Galick Gun.

There's nothing to draw from with the shockwave clashes, there's literally nothing to look at. There's no choreography there so that makes this worse than a gif fight. I thought we went by feats on comic vine? Things that we can see? Vegeta parrying Beerus in the movie is still better.

And again, Beerus isn't trying. Also, what's so surprising about a point-blank straight beam attack? Kuririn literally bends, splits and makes his ki practically invisible to distract and trick his opponents and a (millionth) straight beam from Vegeta is supposed to be impressive for some reason?

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That brings up another point; Kuririn's more skilled with ki manipulation. Also again, Goku borrowed a technique from Kuririn during the T.O.P (which almost rung out Jiren) and not Vegeta...I wonder what that says about Vegeta?

Goku was 24 when he fought Vegeta, and had this to say in the original manga and Japanese anime.

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Vegeta had the higher max power level at this time, but if you read the fight it was a very gradual thing, and Goku and Vegeta were certainly clashing in skill at similar power levels during points. Vegeta was flanking Goku and tricking him over and over again, until Goku of all people resorted to using sheer brute muscle to his advantage.

Vegeta was literally just blitzing him a few times. Vegeta has the higher power level so he's dominating like with 99% of his fights, notice how he also mentions speed. I guess because Freeza was beating the pants off of Goku that means he had superior technique despite never training a day in his life when they first fought.

@the_hajduk said:

This makes me think that Vegeta was in a different stratosphere compared to Krillin when they met, and the gap definitely didn't get smaller as the series went on.

And you mention this but remember, later in the Namek arc Ginyu is clearly equaling Goku in skill when they clash (before Goku decides to just use Kaio-Ken):

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Kuririn then goes on to fight Ginyu by himself for a few panels and is equaling that Ginyu who equalled Goku. "Different stratosphere" is definitely a stretch.

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#38 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp:

  1. About Beerus, when the scene makes it a point to show that Beerus is being caught off guard by Vegeta over and over again, it becomes a feat of skill. Again Vegeta was not close to Beerus' strength in that scene, yet he still tagged him over and over. This is the same as Krillin's feats against Piccolo and Nappa to me, but against a more skilled foe.
  2. The Galick Gun might be an orthodox attack, but it's the application of his techniques that is impressive for Vegeta. He caught Beerus with that Galick Gun while he was distracted and in a position that he couldn't dodge. The point is to touch foes with the ki, so if Krillin needs to develop bendy techniques whereas Vegeta can just catch people with his sheer timing, they're accomplishing the same thing in the end.
  3. Well Goku clearly stated that Vegeta's technique has surpassed his own. That's as straightforward as it can get. He mentioned speed as well but combat speed is dictated by skills a lot. Vegeta was not using his full power at that point yet, he wasn't dominating Goku with power, if you take a look at the scene they were evenly matched in strength, but Vegeta was fooling and flanking Goku repeatedly. So the events of the fight matchup with Goku's statement. Vegeta was the best saiyan warrior in the universe at that point.
  4. Now that you mention Freeza I actually do think he was more skilled in h2h compared to Goku because he was giving Goku total hell without even using his hands. That was when they both had PLs of 3 million at the same time.
  5. Ginyu was absolutely a beastly fighter. I should point out that Krillin was being assisted by Gohan, but the duo were still outclassed in pure power yet they made it a stalemate, so it's good. But was Vegeta not the one to put Ginyu out of commission in the end? He did it with skillful moves too IIRC. I always got the sense from analyzing the fights that Ginyu and Freeza were both better H2H fighters than Goku on Namek but Vegeta was the best of them all.
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#39 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern said:

@omega_kai: Goku and Vegeta are the strongest because they have the best stats. A measure of actual fighting skill is rarely compared in DB.

Yes, but they became the most powerful through training and learning from the best Martial Arts masters throughout the Earth or universe. Just because Krillin has more flashy hand-to-hand showings doesn't mean he's a better martial artist, especially when Ki attacks such as the Kaiōken, Final Flash, and Spirit Bomb are martial arts too.

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#40 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: I feel like Krillin’s actual hand to hand showings are the sole indicating factor that shows he’s potentially better than Vegeta. Again, Vegeta and Goku are only so strong because they are sayains. Not only are they naturally a stronger race than humans, but they also have numerous transformations, zankai boost, and an inexplicable knack for growing stronger during a fight. None of that is relevant when stats are equalized. Krillin has shown to be a much more creative and intelligent fighter than Vegeta is throughout his entire run. His sparring match with Goku and Gohan indicate this. How many showings of actual skill does Vegeta actually have? One of the only ones I can think of is against Jiren but even that is iffy as Vegeta outright states Jiren was weaker in his fight than with Goku’s.

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#41 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern said:

@omega_kai: Goku and Vegeta are the strongest because they have the best stats. A measure of actual fighting skill is rarely compared in DB.

Yes, but they became the most powerful through training and learning from the best Martial Arts masters throughout the Earth or universe. Just because Krillin has more flashy hand-to-hand showings doesn't mean he's a better martial artist, especially when Ki attacks such as the Kaiōken, Final Flash, and Spirit Bomb are martial arts too.

Damn right.

@omega_kai: I feel like Krillin’s actual hand to hand showings are the sole indicating factor that shows he’s potentially better than Vegeta. Again, Vegeta and Goku are only so strong because they are sayains. Not only are they naturally a stronger race than humans, but they also have numerous transformations, zankai boost, and an inexplicable knack for growing stronger during a fight. None of that is relevant when stats are equalized. Krillin has shown to be a much more creative and intelligent fighter than Vegeta is throughout his entire run. His sparring match with Goku and Gohan indicate this. How many showings of actual skill does Vegeta actually have? One of the only ones I can think of is against Jiren but even that is iffy as Vegeta outright states Jiren was weaker in his fight than with Goku’s.

Vegeta bested Goku H2H and forced Goku to use continuous levels of Kaioken in the Saiyans fight. I posted the scan where Goku says "Vegeta's speed and technique have already surpassed my own." a little bit above. This was before Vegeta was using his real power.

Vegeta also beat Gohan a little later on, and Gohan only managed to hold on so long because of his rage and the fact that Vegeta was already very hurt. Vegeta still made pretty short work of him in the end and mocked his inexperience.

I don't think he was actually stronger then transformed Zarbon when they fought the second time. The Daizenshuu gave them the same power level of 30,000, which is in line with what the manga indicates about them both. He used tactics like dropping dirt in Zarbon's eyes to catch him off guard with a penetrating ki strike. He dominated a high level warrior in the Freeza empire, someone higher then him, in fighting skill.

He showed some random skilled and smart bits against Freeza but he was too scared/outclassed to really perform in that battle.

He outsmarted and embarrassed Gero, a genius, which Piccolo called Vegeta a genius for. Later in the arc he outsmarted Cell and fooled him into taking the Final Flash.

He showed a LOT of cool H2H skill against 18 and there are some statements indicating that the saiyans all had an edge in fighting skill over the androids. Overall he fought someone highly skilled in her own right, with much less power, and held his own. In the end it was the android's infinite stamina which gave her the win.

A lot of people argue that Majin Vegeta was actually beating SSJ2 Goku and dealing more damage to him in their fight. So he's at least still on par with Goku in fighting skill even after seven years of Otherworld training.

And he showed a lot of skill when he would momentarily pummel forms of Majin Boo, despite the giant physical gap.

Showed a lot of skill against Beerus, being the only one to survive for some seconds and parry some shots despite Gohan, Goku, and Majin Boo all being stronger.

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#42 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern: No, it doesn't prove anything his hand to hand showings are few and far between. Flashy martians arts doesn't mean he's a better martial artist, Krillin in the 21st budokai had flashy hand to hand scenes but does that mean he could beat current Vegeta, who still till this day has barely any flashy hand-to-hand combat scenes. Of course not as Vegeta has decades more of training and fighting experience. Moreover, just because Vegeta fighting style isn't as elegant as Goku or Krillin's, doesn't mean he is any less of a martial artist, since he was never really trained by a martial arts master until Whis. He's learned how to fight through I'm guessing whatever the Saiyans taught him or what he's learned and picked up himself, in which is far more impressive. Whereas, Goku and Krillin have been learning from venerated masters since they were kids and it shows inasmuch as Vegeta's lack of one. As Vegeta has more of a militaristic and aggressive fighting style, while Goku has a more elegant and refined fight style. Furthermore, equalizing a one's stats is the same as essentially nerfing or buffing a character, thus which makes the types of these matches questionable at best since a lot of these characters skills are in conjunction with their powers or stats.

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#43 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

Vegeta bested Goku H2H and forced Goku to use continuous levels of Kaioken in the Saiyans fight.

That doesn't seem like a fair comparison. Vegeta's power level was 18,000 where as Goku was just over 8,000. That is nearly 10 Master Roshi's power difference. And Roshi is incomparably stronger than an average person.

I posted the scan where Goku says "Vegeta's speed and technique have already surpassed my own." a little bit above. This was before Vegeta was using his real power.

Vegeta was literally over twice as strong as Goku at this point.

Vegeta also beat Gohan a little later on,

Gohan has next to no martial arts experience though. His entire gimmick is that his rage enhances his raw power so he can overwhelm his opponents.

He used tactics like dropping dirt in Zarbon's eyes to catch him off guard with a penetrating ki strike.

Throwing dirt in someone's eyes isn't really that indicative of skill. That is like saying a street thug that plays dirty is more skilled than a honed martial artist. That scenario would have people of similar "power levels" (average people probably wouldn't have more than a 10 point difference in real life) but different methods.

He outsmarted and embarrassed Gero, a genius, which Piccolo called Vegeta a genius for. Later in the arc he outsmarted Cell and fooled him into taking the Final Flash.

Gero is a scientific genious, not a martial arts one. I feel most able bodied people could defeat Albert Einstein in a fight regardless of intelegence. Vegeta didn't really fool Cell into taking a Final Flash. I believe the point of the scene was for Cell to show that even his strongest and (rather impractical) attack was useless against him. Cell easily could have moved if he wanted to.

He showed a LOT of cool H2H skill against 18 and there are some statements indicating that the saiyans all had an edge in fighting skill over the androids.

18 is quite literally a random girl that was kidnapped and given cybernetic enhancements. Vegeta still lost because she was simply more powerful than him. Vegeta's skill did nothing to help him here.

A lot of people argue that Majin Vegeta was actually beating SSJ2 Goku and dealing more damage to him in their fight. So he's at least still on par with Goku in fighting skill even after seven years of Otherworld training.

As was Krillin when they fought in Dragon Ball. Matching Goku in a fight is something that even Frieza, someone that has outright stated to have never trained a day in his life, can do. As long as the power levels are similar, Goku starts to struggle and forget his 30+ years of training.

And he showed a lot of skill when he would momentarily pummel forms of Majin Boo, despite the giant physical gap.

Buu didn't really try that hard against Vegeta until later in the fight.

Showed a lot of skill against Beerus, being the only one to survive for some seconds and parry some shots despite Gohan, Goku, and Majin Boo all being stronger.

This is pretty indicative of skill, but it could also be seen as Beerus being surprised by the amount of power Vegeta had in comparison to a few minutes prior. Similar to having a young teen lashing out in a angry fit.

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#44 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern: No, it doesn't prove anything his hand to hand showings are few and far between. Flashy martians arts doesn't mean he's a better martial artist, Krillin in the 21st budokai had flashy hand to hand scenes but does that mean he could beat current Vegeta, who still till this day has barely any flashy hand-to-hand combat scenes. Of course not as Vegeta has decades more of training and fighting experience. Moreover, just because Vegeta fighting style isn't as elegant as Goku or Krillin's, doesn't mean he is any less of a martial artist, since he was never really trained by a martial arts master until Whis. He's learned how to fight through I'm guessing whatever the Saiyans taught him or what he's learned and picked up himself, in which is far more impressive. Whereas, Goku and Krillin have been learning from venerated masters since they were kids and it shows inasmuch as Vegeta's lack of one. As Vegeta has more of a militaristic and aggressive fighting style, while Goku has a more elegant and refined fight style. Furthermore, equalizing a one's stats is the same as essentially nerfing or buffing a character, thus which makes the types of these matches questionable at best since a lot of these characters skills are in conjunction with their powers or stats.

The saiyans are repeatedly called the greatest warrior race, the most natural fighters, the most gifted fighters, to the point where they just figure out things like flight and basic ki projection as children, and it's just a natural part of their development.

Goku, who was born with a power level of 2 making him nearly mentally retarded by saiyan standards, had about the same level of natural talent as rare, ultra prodigy Earthings. Guys like Tenshinhan and Krillin. Guys who had to work really hard to learn how to fly.

Vegeta as the prince of this species is stated to also have had the most potential and the most talent. Ki sensing, a godly technique on Earth that was so mysterious to Goku, and took him and his friends long hours of training over the course of years to master, was just figured out by Vegeta randomly, all Goku had to do was spark the idea and let him think about it for a while. That is the talent gap between Vegeta and Goku.

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#45 Posted by Kidolio (613 posts) - - Show Bio

He doesn’t beat krillin but can beat everybody else maybe even Beerus if he doesn’t have UI.

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#46 Posted by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

Flashy martians arts doesn't mean he's a better martial artist, Krillin in the 21st budokai had flashy hand to hand scenes but does that mean he could beat current Vegeta, who still till this day has barely any flashy hand-to-hand combat scenes.

Which is exactly why I say Krillin is a better martial artist. Even when Vegeta's skill is given the chance to be shown, he doesn't. Android 18 is a girl that was kidnapped and experimented on and Vegeta's skill did nothing to help him. Even with their similar power levels at the time. Vegeta actively tried to just overpower his opponent as usual here. Average Joe should lose just about all fights with Bruce Lee in a fight competition even with equalized stats.

Moreover, just because Vegeta fighting style isn't as elegant as Goku or Krillin's, doesn't mean he is any less of a martial artist, since he was never really trained by a martial arts master until Whis.

How is that helping Vegeta's case? Vegeta not being trained in martial arts compared to a seasoned martial artist that has trained since he was 12 is not a helpful argument for him. Actual series evidence points to Vegeta rather not thriving when he can't just overpower his opponent.

He's learned how to fight through I'm guessing whatever the Saiyans taught him or what he's learned and picked up himself, in which is far more impressive.

It is impressive, but Krillin has done that too. He taught himself how to fly without any instructor even before Goku could. He taught himself the Destructo Disk and taught himself the Solar Flare. Many rather just copy Krillin.

As Vegeta has more of a militaristic and aggressive fighting style, while Goku has a more elegant and refined fight style.

Elegant and refined isn't what I would call Goku's fighting style. It is pretty similar to Vegeta's. They have a heavy focus on overpowering their opponent, and when they can't, they simply just lose. Even when their opponent is less "skilled" than they should be.

Furthermore, equalizing a one's stats is the same as essentially nerfing or buffing a character, thus which makes the types of these matches questionable at best since a lot of these characters skills are in conjunction with their powers or stats.

When stats are equalized, we must focus on the "flashy hand to hand showings". That is likely why the thread was created.

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#47 Posted by The_Hajduk (5849 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimlylitlantern:

That doesn't seem like a fair comparison. Vegeta's power level was 18,000 where as Goku was just over 8,000. That is nearly 10 Master Roshi's power difference. And Roshi is incomparably stronger than an average person.

Vegeta was not using his true power at that point. He and Goku were having even clashes and pushing, which tells me they had even strength. The statement where Goku says Vegeta's technique has surpassed him also indicates that they were fighting evenly, but even if they weren't, Vegeta having more power than Goku doesn't really matter when Goku said "His technique has surpassed my own." Vegeta could have had more technique AND power than Goku. The statement "His technique has surpassed my own." Is pretty straightforward and doesn't leave much room for interpretation, Vegeta the prince of saiyans, was a better warrior than Goku at that moment.

Gohan has next to no martial arts experience though. His entire gimmick is that his rage enhances his raw power so he can overwhelm his opponents.

Gohan was the most talented fighter in the series at that point. This is stated repeatedly, I think Vegeta even brings it up again in Super and says that it's still true. He might have been five and very inexperienced, but his rage boosts made him a dangerous opponent to anyone. That much rage makes a dangerous fighter. This is a more minor, but notable instance of Vegeta's H2H skill being noted as the reason for his victory in the manga.

Throwing dirt in someone's eyes isn't really that indicative of skill. That is like saying a street thug that plays dirty is more skilled than a honed martial artist.

That is very much the analogy for Goku and Vegeta though. Vegeta is a rough fighter with no formal training. He uses brutality, aggression, and unpredictability to make skill. Goku is a trained martial artist. I always likened Vegeta to more of a soldier, or maybe an oldschool Roman warrior.

18 is quite literally a random girl that was kidnapped and given cybernetic enhancements. Vegeta still lost because she was simply more powerful than him. Vegeta's skill did nothing to help him here.

18 is a very good warrior in the Japanese version. She makes comments about loving to fight, reading movements, let's not forget her brother showed great skill against the Nameless Namek. 18 fought H2H with two chibi saiyans and blocked all their attacks simultaneously, even landed some strikes at points. That's a great showing from her. I haven't watched Super, but people tell me she is very skilled in that too.

As was Krillin when they fought in Dragon Ball. Matching Goku in a fight is something that even Frieza, someone that has outright stated to have never trained a day in his life, can do. As long as the power levels are similar, Goku starts to struggle and forget his 30+ years of training.

That's not true. Freeza is referred to as a genius and a fighting prodigy in the Japanese. He didn't train because he did not need to. He had definite skill showings, like dominating Goku at equal power levels without using his hands. The Daizenshuu confirms they both had power levels of 3 million at that moment, but Freeza was winning H2H. There are also statements that Freeza's moves can't be read by anyone, yet he was reading Goku's movements.

This is pretty indicative of skill, but it could also be seen as Beerus being surprised by the amount of power Vegeta had in comparison to a few minutes prior. Similar to having a young teen lashing out in a angry fit.

Actually this happened even before the rage boost.

"Prince Vegeta is highly skilled but he lacks the power to match me!" - Beerus right afterwards

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#48 Posted by Kidolio (613 posts) - - Show Bio

Vegeta can beat anybody here 50/50 except broly who he completely destroys but he loses to krillin who actually knows martial arts.

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#49 Edited by DimlyLitLantern (709 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk:

The saiyans are repeatedly called the greatest warrior race, the most natural fighters, the most gifted fighters, to the point where they just figure out things like flight and basic ki projection as children, and it's just a natural part of their development.

That is true, and it is shown by the series they grow by getting physically stronger. That growth is completely voided in an equalized stats fight. We can even go though some DB fights as proof. Goku vs Vegeta featured Goku failing until Kaio-Ken, Goku vs Frieza was Goku failing until Kaio-Ken x20 and SSJ, Vegeta vs 18 featured Vegeta struggling against a girl with no documented martial arts experience and losing when he started getting tired, and Gohan vs Cell featured Cell losing when he was overpowered despite him having the experience of all Z-Fighters combined. This theme continues to show how sayains grow and alter during a battle. Something they can't do here.

Goku, who was born with a power level of 2 making him nearly mentally retarded by saiyan standards, had about the same level of natural talent as rare, ultra prodigy Earthings. Guys like Tenshinhan and Krillin. Guys who had to work really hard to learn how to fly.

I am unsure as to how that proves Vegeta has better H2H than Krillin. Vegeta would need to show feats of defeating someone without overpowering them physically to prove that he can win against him. Vegeta's fights will either be Vegeta successfully overpowering his opponent and winning or failing to do so and losing. There is no in between here. I can say Batman is more skilled than Green Arrow in martial arts because he has simply paralyzed him before in H2H combat despite similar physicals. I can say Jason Todd has been a better combatant than Tim Drake because he has easily won a fight with skill despite similar physicals before. When has Vegeta done something similar?

Vegeta was not using his true power at that point. He and Goku were having even clashes and pushing, which tells me they had even strength.

Vegeta's resting power level was 18,000. Suppressing power level isn't something he learned until Namek.

Gohan was the most talented fighter in the series at that point.

Not even close. Gohan is literally known for letting power get to his head, overpowering his opponent with latent power, and losing for the aforementioned reasons. That showcases massive inexperience and skill.

He might have been five and very inexperienced, but his rage boosts made him a dangerous opponent to anyone.

What if his rage boost didn't actually boost him? What if everyone was exactly the same strength with no random power increases? Gohan would be decidedly substandard when that is taken into account. That also happens to be part of the rules for this thread.

That much rage makes a dangerous fighter.

It also makes them sloppy.

That is very much the analogy for Goku and Vegeta though. Vegeta is a rough fighter with no formal training. He uses brutality, aggression, and unpredictability to make skill. Goku is a trained martial artist. I always likened Vegeta to more of a soldier, or maybe an oldschool Roman warrior.

This battle is measuring skill, not fighting style to my interpretation.

18 is a very good warrior in the Japanese version.

I am not saying she isn't. I am saying she has no martial arts feats to back up being where Vegeta is supposed to be.

18 fought H2H with two chibi saiyans and blocked all their attacks simultaneously, even landed some strikes at points.

That is because 18 is much stronger than the pretty inexperienced Trunks and Goten.

That's a great showing from her.

Not really. Even if it was, that was years after the Vegeta fight.

Freeza is referred to as a genius and a fighting prodigy in the Japanese. He didn't train because he did not need to.

That doesn't make the showing any better. Goku having 20+ years of experience by Namek should have easily triumphed over Frieza's zero no matter how much of a prodigy he is. That idea should be especially true during the SSJ portion of the fight.

like dominating Goku at equal power levels without using his hands.

Equal power? 3,000,000 is pretty far off from 60,000,000 by a lot. Frieza is just using natural strength to beat Goku here.

Actually this happened even before the rage boost.

I am not trying to say Vegeta isn't skilled. I am more so saying that his skill disappears whenever it should be evident. He is a natural fighter but I can't accurately pinpoint where he is when his skill feats are next to none. Beerus is also holding back quite a bit here.

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#50 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio