Valkorion vs Vader and Starkiller

Vs.

Rules:

- In character

- No prep

- Fight takes place on Jedi Temple

Callouts

Apologies if you were called out and weren't interested or weren't called out and were interested

...i just wanna say valkorion even if it isn't happening

Probably Valk. He could dump on them with the force. Vader probably gets overwhelmd by lightning and then Starkiller gets crushed into a tiny ball with TK

Valkorion, way more masterful, experienced and versatile in terms of the Force.

He one-shots Vader with lightning and then kills Marek the overrated.

Valkorion utterly wrecks them casually.

@ordeith: There really isn't that big of a power gap between them. It doesn't matter.

Valkorion would win here.

I think he means the starkiller clone, based on the picture.

As for the fight, Valkorion. too powerful

@ordeith: lol

Galen wasn't strong enough to KILL Darth Sidious, but, with Vader, he very well might've been able to.

Vader thought he and TESB Luke had a high chance of taking him down together (sure, with prep).

RotJ Luke may have gotten steamrolled by him, but Vader was able to exploit the simple fact that his master was distracted.

In short, hype-bois be hypin'.

Since, whether OT Sidious is more powerful or not, they're clearly on the same tier.

Valkorion

Valkorion's TP probably gives him the edge here, since I don't remember Starkiller having that great of a defense against that sort of thing.

His lightning can be reduced by barriers/tutaminis, as can his TK, though I think he's still noticeably more powerful than his opponents.

valkorion one shots both

@ordeith: Yeah, your logic is flawed. First off, you're disregarding the fact that Starkiller was said to be more powerful than his original template. This is evidenced by his vaster arsenal of Force powers, his greater in-game displays of telekinesis, and his Force Fury state which the original didn't have. Second off, the clone never had a chance to fight Palpatine. How do you know he wouldn't do better than Galen? It's just nonsense, hence the "lol."

@ordeith: I was thinking more of Starkiller (the clone), but fair enough.

Valkorion.

@geistalt: rotj sidious>rots sidious>valk

and thats in terms of force only, in terms of sabers and speed sidious outclasses valk

You mean like how the most powerful sith lord of all time did?

@ordeith said:

Right, which is why I never said that there was an in-universe or authorial quote explicitly stating that the Starkiller clone was more powerful than the original. This is why I gave other evidence.

What's funny is that your original claim wasn't about capability, was it? There are several quotes that make it clear that Starkiller was at the very least equal to Galen in terms of power, yet you say that Galen is somehow "far more powerful based off his performance against Sidious." That being said, nothing points to the Starkiller clone having less "overall capability" than Galen, either.

Ahh, yes, when in doubt, just chalk it up to game mechanics. Is it still due to game mechanics that the Starkiller clone displays a wider array of Force powers in the books? I'm guessing it is...

I also find it funny that you seem to be unaware of Force Fury, or Force Rage as it's often called. It is a real Force power used by Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Malgus, etc. It's not due to game mechanics that the Starkiller clone had access to a real Force power that Galen didn't.

Starkiller does have superior showings of Force Lightning and telekinesis and it's not debatable. He crushes TIE fighters as a side effect of holding them, he can casually vaporize foes with Force Repulse and Lightning, and simply has better overall telekinesis and Force Lightning feats, both in-game and not, than Galen. However, I'm of the opinion that they're not actually that much better, but that's a topic for another day.

Once again, the Starkiller clone has never been able to fight Darth Sidious. Galen isn't all of the sudden superior to Starkiller because he had an encounter that his clone never had.

Nothing suggests that Starkiller wouldn't be able to stand up to Palpatine in the same way Galen did.

I thought it was because of Galen's performance against Palpatine... but okay...

Care to elaborate?

@echostarlord117: The Starkiller clone never went up against Palpatine; the only way to judge how skilled/powerful they were compared to each other was in terms of how well they did against Vader (who improved since TFU 1, by the way–and even upgraded his armor to resist electric current).

@echostarlord117: The Starkiller clone never went up against Palpatine; the only way to judge how skilled/powerful they were compared to each other was in terms of how well they did against Vader (who improved since TFU 1, by the way–and even upgraded his armor to resist electric current).

@geistalt said:

Try telling that to ordeith.

Source?

@echostarlord117: Courtesy of the clone's respect thread:

He fires a concentrated burst of Lightning in Vader's suit so powerful that even the new insulation can't absorb it:

"But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it."

-- The Force Unleashed 2

@geistalt: Thanks!

Star killer in his what if story line was beating dark side Luke

@ordeith: The clone never got the opportunity to duel Sidious, so don't bother using however long/easily Galen resisted his Force Lightning as evidence that he was superior.

Anyways, I could've sworn I saw a quote of Vader praising the Starkiller clone somewhere, but, as it turns out, it was probably just this accolade from Distant Thunder (awarded to the Dark Apprentice, mind you):

"Dark Apprentice: Who was he?

Darth Vader: It does not matter. He was broken and weak. You are already more powerful than he ever was."

@ordeith said:

I'll go ahead and give you two.

Galen Marek's clones possess their genetic host's fighting skills, including incredible abilities with the Force.

The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated And Expanded

When he escapes, however, Starkiller's clone proves that even though he may have Starkiller's power, memories, and master, he still has the power to choose his own destiny

Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2: Prima Official Game Guide

Even by your definition, the clone isn't any less capable than Galen. The quotes I provided above prove that the clone isn't any less skilled with the lightsaber than Galen, nor is he any less powerful. This fact is further reinforced by feats.

I never said Starkiller used Force Fury in the books, although it can be argued that he has. There are a few instances where he displays "symptoms" of Force Fury, such as an increased tug from the dark side, an increase in power, etc. Regardless, it doesn't matter because that wasn't my point.

I was saying that even in the novels Starkiller's clone displays a wider array of Force powers. I can provide evidence for that if you'd like.

Starkiller's clone ruptured the heart of a Gorog, vaporized flesh, metal, and 300-meter frigates, dominated Darth Vader via the Force, could nigh-effortlessly rip down massive communication towers and use them as battering rams, could send shakes and shudders throughout a ship just by meditating, could crush AT-ST's and TIE fighters into balls in the midst of combat, and could create Force Barriers so strong that he could defend himself from a direct punch from a Gorog, and from the heat of a star. Do you want to continue listing feats?

This is just nonsense.

Valkorion wins, but he isn't one-shotting. People put way too much stock into a weakness that doesn't exist.

@echostarlord117:

dominated Darth Vader via the Force,

Never happened, it was Vader who dominated him more than once, with the game guide supporting that:

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Granted, not that I take Vader stomping him at face value, but I don't dismiss it entirely either, and this is still evidence that he is the more powerful Force user, not the other way around. And yes, this is a description of the Force grip cutscene in Tfu 2 (classical version). And it's hardly the only evidence, even when dismissing Witwer's words (which are actually a clarification of Haden Blackman's own intention, but whatever).

The true master of the force

In all reality I suppose I give this to Volkorion

Valkorion one-shots the both of them. Because neither has any idea what they're up against.

Nope, Valkorion isn't winning against two abject powerhouses here. And people fail to notice, that Starkiller faced Vader after disintegrating a roughly 150*150 m portion of a huge frigate ship( the dimensions are half of it, which is 300 m long), then surviving the crash, and then setting the entire clone tower in Kamino in vibration, and simultaneously shattering all the clone tubes, and fighting through armies of his own clones( who even while deformed have a noticeable force power of their own, and there were many who were almost complete). It is not as if he would be in prime condition here at all while facing Vader, and he had to use trickery, only because his exhaustion created mental images of Juno in his mind, which allowed Vader to get the brief edge. Besides, it is canonical that Starkiller>Marek. And it is really hilarious to suggest that he would one shot the team.

Vader solos.

Valkorion is a puss

@lordofthelight: The game guide confirms Vader was too powerful, tho, and he was holding back, which is both obvious by paying attention to the novel, and confirmed by Sam Witwer. Granted, technically Witwer is not an authority, but he was basically clarifying Haden Blackman's intentions in that instance, and indeed, he didn't want to reveal too much about Tfu 3, meaning that he could only have been informed of the plot by Blackman, or someone else who does hold authority over the story.

@zapan871 The novel though, confirms that Sk>Marek. And, even assuming Vader is more powerful, the extent to which he is, is obviously wrong as the guide states it. Not even by a high stretch of the imagination is Vader powerful enough to "ragdoll" Marek, let alone Sk. This is a hugely exhausted Sk we are talking about( see above). Also, the novel states that he was fighting to get to Juno, not exactly to destroy Vader. There is an abundance of quotes hindering them both in the fight as it is a highly circumstantial one. There is the final instance wherein he realizes that he must destroy Vader, eventually for Juno to live, but that is when he opts to use the trick, instead of confronting him head on. Yes Vader's holding back, but then again we have Sk's emotions being clouded by his distress at Juno's plight, among other hindrances. It is not a linear fight, and honestly a huge lot of arguments can be made for either side. This topic is quite debatable. There is also the question of which source to give the maximum priority. Personally, the novel and the game should cut it out, with the others being side references. I'd like to add, that Vader's performances against Sk, make him a virtual beast in Legends at least.

@lordofthelight: Let me clarify that I don't actually believe Vader is that much more powerful, not even close. My argument is simply that while the game might overblow the gap, you can't exaggerate what isn't there to begin with. For example, let's assume that I claim there are 50 people in a room. The room actually has 5 people, thus making my statement inaccurate. However, it would still be true that there are people in that room, just not nearly as many, so it wouldn't be a complete lie. The same logic applies here, the gap has been exaggerated, but it's still there, because you can't be below someone you dominated three or four times, which the game does depict.

There is the final instance wherein he realizes that he must destroy Vader, eventually for Juno to live, but that is when he opts to use the trick, instead of confronting him head on. Yes Vader's holding back, but then again we have Sk's emotions being clouded by his distress at Juno's plight, among other hindrances.

He clearly isn't hindered if he can think logically about the best option to win the fight. And Vader was also just trying to prevent him from reaching Juno, so it cancels out.

The novel though, confirms that Sk>Marek.

Where???

@zapan871

Where???

Here:

"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "

Credit: The Force Unleashed 2

I am surprised that you aren't aware of this one.

I never implied that you specifically overblew the gap, just that the quote did.

The same logic applies here, the gap has been exaggerated, but it's still there, because you can't be below someone you dominated three or four times, which the game does depict.

True, but the novel depicts a different version of things, and both should be given weightage equally. In addition, what about the main point, which I already listed in my first post? That would single handedly diminish his capacity by a lot( there is only so much one can do and continue on doing, and the disintegration of that ship is about one of the best feats of Marek/Sk, and he did a lot after that, which I already said). This cannot be ignored.

He clearly isn't hindered if he can think logically about the best option to win the fight. And Vader was also just trying to prevent him from reaching Juno, so it cancels out.

Which he does only in the end, after they have both been depicted to be around equals( in lightsaber combat), due to his desperation to end the fight quickly. But he has been hindered by a vision of Juno in the very same fight.

@lordofthelight:

Here:

I knew about that, but I thought it was referring solely to the other clones, given that Vader didn't create Marek. But I guess I'm nitpicking a little, lol.

True, but the novel depicts a different version of things, and both should be given weightage equally. In addition, what about the main point, which I already listed in my first post? That would single handedly diminish his capacity by a lot( there is only so much one can do and continue on doing, and the disintegration of that ship is about one of the best feats of Marek/Sk, and he did a lot after that, which I already said). This cannot be ignored.

I know Sk fought through an army, but you should also consider that he was able to fight for hours long before Tfu 1, and before a logically insane increase in power, so his stamina should be immensely high, and thus I doubt he would be affected much by that. Though in fairness, disintegrating his clones did tire him. However, Vader was not only holding back in the first part, but also testing Starkiller, which implies he wasn't even close to going all out.

Anyway, don't know if you noticed, but Vader has an impressive disintegration feat/accolade here:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-caedus-jaina-solo-and-kyp-durron-vs-count-do-1831253/?page=1#js-message-17494037

Btw, one of those ragdolls happened at the beginning of Tfu 2 (Wii version), and actually the novel doesn't say that Vader couldn't do that.

Which he does in the end, after they have both been depicted to be around equals( in lightsaber combat), due to his desperation to end the fight quickly. But he has been hindered by a vision of Juno in the very same fight.

That's honestly a good reason to overpower Vader, not to trick him. Someone more powerful should be able to do that, even if not via ragdoll. Instead, he specifically aimed to a gash in Vader's armor that was opened by Juno's surprise attack. Bearing in mind that Vader tanked Sk's lightning at the beginning of the game, before insulating his suit. Had he not been distracted, and with his armor damaged, Sk probably wouldn't have won.

And the vision of Juno did distract him, yes, but it was only temporary.