Vados vs Pegasus Seiya

Since when is the travel speed in DB faster than their combat speed. And the staff is not something like a IG. It can be summoned any time and was used in combat before. It is part of Whis and Vados. So saying that the speed only comes from the staff doesn't really help anything.

Hahaha using episode G again, its funny, vados stomps one finger, golden saint are only LS no more.

@kratosx64x: Expect anything from ss fans mate.

You ask for physical planetery strikes and all they give you is bs. /Thread.

I think the point they were trying to make is that Vados' travel speed doesn't equate to combat speed. Especially when Zeno, the strongest being in Dragon Ball, couldn't keep up with a being, who's inferior to Vados, in speed.

@batuxx28:

"Hahaha using episode G again, its funny, vados stomps one finger,"

Why is using Episode G bad? Also if you think Vados wins this battle, thats fine. But you need to provide something called evidence and reasoning.

"golden saint are only LS no more."

Easily debunked.

Word of advice, don't set yourself up for failure by commenting on franchises that you have never read/watched before.

Translation: You ask for physical planetary strikes and all they give you are feats that are massively more impressive than my own. Man I hate losing.

From this point on, a flame war will probably start. It's pretty unfortunate yet not surprising at the same time because this is the usual routine of the notable DB supporters who can't just take a simple loss, or even attempt to prove the opposing side wrong and just claim BS, with no reasoning or evidence to back any of it up. I really think these threads need to stop because none of them really got anywhere interesting or challenging. Hell, it's even accepted by the majority of the users at Comic Vine, from what I've seen, that Seiya stomps all of DBS, which was why everyone was using Xeno Goku in their threads for weeks and not canon Goku to try and get the win they so badly wanted. We seriously might as well set up a finale CaV so all of us can just move onto different character battles, because the "SS vs DB" rivalry really got old.

@jman88933: I do get the idea but this is not relevant to what i said. In DB the set standard rule was always travel speed < combat speed. But what i see here is that the main complain about Vados is that her travel speed doesn't count. If anything that shows that she should be faster in combat speed. That wouldn't be far fetched in any given way because we saw how Whis manhandled anyone in speed because he already has UI in a sense that his body can react on his own. Vados is said to be superior to Whis. And Zeno doesn't fight he just destroys like stated by Whis. Someone who doesn't have any combat experience would have some problems with fighting speed. However Vados is a teacher to Champa for combat. There is no reason for her to be slower than Whis and for her travel speed to be higher than her combat speed.

I laughed so hard at that "factual" septillion x FTL (--fan calc) LMAO.

@kratosx64x:

"In DB the set standard rule was always travel speed < combat speed."

? What are you even talking about? Where and when was this rule established? Especially when there are a couple scenes from DBS that completely contradicts this.

"But what i see here is that the main complain about Vados is that her travel speed doesn't count. If anything that shows that she should be faster in combat speed."

For one, we don't even know the distance Vados traveled in her instance. So even if we were to consider that combat, it would be highly unspecified. Second, how does that translate to combat speed? Dragon Ball Super itself contradicts what your saying by Zeno, a being who's superior to Vados, couldn't even keep up with a being who was going a few times FTL in actual combat. (Dyspo) Or Jiren, who supposedly flew from his planet all the way to the Arena by himself, yet Zeno has absolutely no problem keeping up with his speed in combat, implying that he's not as fast as Dyspo.

"That wouldn't be far fetched in any given way because we saw how Whis manhandled anyone in speed because he already has UI in a sense that his body can react on his own."

Here's a tip. Don't be vague with your words, because now your only making me confused. You said Whis "Manhandled anyone in speed". What does that even mean? That he caught someone in his own speed range?(Which isn't specified either) IIRC the only thing we saw was him tagging Beerus, who moved slower than Vados in her travel speed. UI is a cool transformation, but it needs to be provided by feats to really mean something in this conversation. UI, on top of that, is still massively slower in comparison to the Gold Saints.

I'm laughing too XD. Because you don't even have the guts to tag me in comments that are obviously directed towards me because hiding behind that monitor screen and trolling is what your best at.

Especially when you can't even prove that "Fan calc" wrong.

Should I tag someone saying Septillion X FTL Seiya (include baseless unrealistic fan calc) is factual. Let that sink in for a second because that is what is more funny. I don't take them seriously anymore.

Seiya fanboys are more cancerous here than on vs battles no wonder they don't have credibility in the space battle forums.

"Septillion times FTL Seiya" - factual lmao. Nice thing it got noticed since it made me have a good laugh.

They don't even have planet level D.C feats (except hyperbole) and their blunt durability is a joke as they would absolutely get demolished if someone punches them with enough force to destroy a planet.

@arcreactor: Yeah indeed seiya fanboys are getting more cancerous than even the DB community and will probably surpass them with their fan calcs and random numbers lmao. They think these extreme highballs are being lowballed which is more sad.

@durzo_bat: Yes, exactly they don't understand the difference between combat Speed, reaction speed or travel speed. For e.g a Billion attack per second like Deathstar stated is only baseline FTL in combat. So they are not even near DBS top tiers in combat speed or flight with fight speed like Beerus and Champa displayed.

Seiya gets speedblitz by Vados and she stomps him bad. I doubt Seiya would even make it past Beerus. Their physical durability is crap.

Dragon Ball supporters are reaching for a valid point as usual... Anyway, Vados still gets one-shotted effortlessly.

@jman88933: episode g is not canon.

Vados stomps seiya effortlessly.

It is, though.

Nothing at all has been provided to suggest she can hold a candle to Gold Knights.

@thedarkpaladin: its mostly fan made so it been canon is very contradictory.

She has scaling going for her and some pretty decent feat. Seiya isn't one shotting her in his wildest dreams.

@elderelijah190:

its mostly fan made so it been canon is very contradictory.

It's not fan-made at all. It's written by a single author (Okada) who is supervised by Kurumada. Sort of like how DBS is written by Toei writers and Toyotaro, whereas Toriyama provides little contribution to each individual episode.

She has scaling going for her and some pretty decent feat. Seiya isn't one shorting her in his wildest dreams.

Factoring in scaling, she still gets one-shotted by Gold Knights like Shaka, who are vastly inferior to Seiya. Direct feats and statements doesn't change this.

@thedarkpaladin:

Seiya lacks greatly in terms of hax if compared to Shaka or gold knights per say so one shotting heck even beerus isn't something he can hope to grasp.

@thedarkpaladin:

Its fan made. I'm not on my PC now or anytime soon but when i do,i would provide said prove.

He doesn't have the variety of hax Shaka does, nor does he really need it when his attack potency scales to Shaka and even characters much stronger than the Gold Knights like Thanatos and Hypnos. Shaka and the other Golds have better clear-cut feats than Beerus by a long shot, so it's more than something he can hope to grasp. It's reality.

Here is the proof, straight from Kurumada's mouth:

原案は車田正美、作画は岡田芽武。- Original Draft by Masami Kurumada, drawings by Megumu Okada.

^ Confirmation the original draft for the story was written by Kurumada, meaning it's his project.

Proof he still supervises its creation to this day:

AL: Besides the series Ring ni Kakero 2, which you write and draw yourself, in 2002 you brought us the beginning of Saint Seiya Episode G, drawn by Megumu Okada, and also the new saga of Fuma no Kojira, drawn by your direct disciple Satoshi Yuri. Can you tell us more about these projects?

MK: I develop a supervision over them, however the artists are totally free to develop the plot. Megumu Okada has made a trully impressive work, but he prints on it his own style and story. Satoshi Yuri is very responsible and works very seriously. He is my student, we work on the same studio, therefore I can take more of my time with his work than with Episode G.

Kurumada directly compares G to the Star Wars prequels, which are in fact canon:

Q: Saint Seiya Episode G arrived as a true surprise. Why are you starting Episode G now?

Kurumada: My answer shall be the same as the one George Lucas has given in regards to the production of his Stars Wars Episode I. A conductive environment to the materialization of what I already imagined has simply arrived. With the context of a film, this refers to digital imaginary and new technologies, for a manga it means the new circumstances of the environment.

@kratosx64x:

"Give me any scene where this is contradicting anything please. This rule was established long before Super. There is not one instance where it was stated or even shown that anyone has superior travel speed in DB. Matter of fact is that it is widely accepted that Combat speed is way faster."

Yeah no. You telling me "This rule was established long before Super" doesn't answer my question. So I'll ask you again:

Where and when was this rule established in the series?

"Zeno is NOT a fighter. He is a childlike God who only destroys and doesn't have any specific training in combat. Too bad that Vados could keep up with Dyspo. Zeno is a superior being in the hierarchy with a unkown set of powers. This however doesn't translate to his preseption of speed."

Zeno is the most powerful being in Dragon Ball. All of the GoDs and Angels are scared of him. Zeno doesn't have to be much of a physical fighter like the rest of the cast, but if Zeno was this slow, and couldn't react to low tier FTL characters, such as Dyspo, then it won't make sense nor will it add up why no DB character can just one shot Zeno.

"Another thing i would like to know is where you get the idea that Dyspo is only a few times faster than light? Because of the description in a magazine?"

Yeah, and Dyspo, from his own words can increase his speed 1000x of times. That compared to the Gold Saints, who far surpassed the speed of light, with one of them surpassing the initial expansion of the big bang, Dyspo is massively slower.

"Jirens istance only hapened in the manga which is a different continuity."

I remembered it being said in the anime as well. Though its been a long time since DBS ended, so if that's not true, my bad.

"If we gonna use manga feats aswell i can give you one where Vados and Champa travelled outside of the observable universe to the Kaioshin realm in an instance."

Okay, I'll let you use that feat.

But I'm going to give you an instance where two Gold Saints were exchanging with Anti Pope Aiolos attacks from universes away(The Underworld and All of Space Time) in seconds with their attack speed.

https://imgur.com/a/II97q

"And lets fact check a little. Goku while in UI Omen moved his hand so fast that it looked like he was standing still. Jiren was punching down so fast that it seemed like he was not moving in the slightest. Doesn't mean that they were moving slow in fact this would make them incredibly fast in that instance."

Let's fact check again. No matter how pretty the animation is for Dragon Ball Super, that absolutely has no meaning on Goku or Jiren's top speed. With that mentality, I can easily say Luffy's attack speed can be considered instant because his Gum-Gum Gatling hits several people at the same time multiple times, or Bankai Ichigo's flash-step is high tier speed because you can see many afterimages of him.

"But we can't see the actual movement of these two and i think the same goes for Zeno. He can see all the effects of the fight, the shockwaves, the lightning and the explosions but not everything that is going on and it would still entertain him."

I get what your saying, and I won't act like my word is fact. But what doesn't add up is how Zeno can see Goku and Jiren's battle, at all. Going from the last episode, it looks like he can keep track of both of them just fine. Implying that, although he's not a fighter, he has very very quick movements. And him not seeing Dyspo, pretty much gives the idea of Goku, Jiren, and Dyspo's speed altogether.

"And even without that when UI omen Goku attacked Jiren the first time he totally blitzed Dypso with it."

Dyspo was not using Super Maximum Light Speed Mode at that time, keep that in mind.

"Dyspo can become thousands of time faster so his reaction speed shouldn't be a problem here because his eyes and senses should be able to react to anything in his speed range, with or without the technique requiered. But he still wasn't able to react in any given way."

Keep in mind that we don't know the extent of Dyspo's speed. If I were to take all of this into consideration, it'd still be lower than Pegasus Seiya dodging Billions of Light Speed Punches by Gold Saint Aioria.

"And lets not forget that Golden Frieza reacted to Dyspo in his fastest form, could block his attacks and move like a blur in the God Pad aswell."

I know its been along time since I've seen Dragon Ball Super, but I'm 99.9% sure that Golden Frieza was having hell against SMLS Dyspo, and could barely even react to him. Which was why Gohan had to step in and help Frieza take him out.

"First UI is not a transformation for the angels at least not for Whis. For him it is just a normal way to move. He doesn't need to think or react with his mind to an attack but his body does it on his own."

The body still needs to have the speed to be able to react to attacks surpassing the speed of the initial big bang.

"Whis Manhandeld Blue Goku who is in the same speed range with Dyspo while being put under higher gravity ( who by the way gave a Champa trouble, someone who is far faster then LS by feats) Beerus who has his own FTL feats with ease if not MFTL and Blue Vegeta who is also in a FTL to MFTL speed range. Whis with no effort was faster than all of them. Vados is superior to Whis."

Blue Goku is not at the same speed range as Super Maximum Light Speed Dyspo. Beerus and Champa flying from planet to planet is nice if you want to use Travel Speed feats. And if we were to go the Travel Speed route, Seiya flew past billions of galaxies in a few minutes in his base cloth.

@thedarkpaladin:

Clear shot feats in what way does Shaka,thanatos and hypnos has above beerus talk more of whis? Also prove those guys wield feats that potentially equate seiya to be able to one shot beerus?

@elderelijah190: Contributing to a combined attack which spawned the creation and destruction of multiple universes, sending energy attacks across multiple galaxies and light-years in seconds. That's already more than enough for the likes of Beerus going by feats alone. Beerus has never withstoon anything near than what they can dish out, and raw durability means nothing against characters with matter manipulation.

@thedarkpaladin:

The multi universal contribution feat is inconsistent as hell on a much higher than beerus multi universal feat is usually addressed to be. And the thanatos feat you're pointing out doesn't prove or estimate that,seiya could oneshot beerus. Its literally a speed feat that doesn't equate to thanatos combat speed.

@elderelijah190: First of all, Beerus doesn't even have a multi-universal or even universal feat that pertains to creation or destruction. He has statements saying he could destroy the universe by fighting at full power, but that's no different from the Gold Knights. Second, the ability to bypass conventional durability through matter manip is enough for Beerus, since he has no durabilty showings against attacks like that. Not to mention, he was going to die from universal shockwaves, whereas Seiya one-shotted Poseidon's Mainstay with the Gold Cloth alone.

@thedarkpaladin: 3 gold knights including saga who's arguably the strongest in his generation = big bang (universal level attack as shown). And beerus has detailed statements to back him up to be lets say universal+ with feats that weren't executed for reasons stated in the series.

Secondly,dbs tiers has dealt with intangible attacks that bypasses durability. Seiya had an amp when he destroyed Poseidon's mainstay unlike beerus who was universal with casual strikes.

And when was it stated those shockwaves per say would kill beerus?

@elderelijah190: That's the requirement for generating Athena's Exclamation, which has been matched and even performed by single Gold Knights in the past. There are a myriad of other feats and statements saying the Golds can dish out universal energy on their own. Mu destroying Iapetos' alternate universe with Starlight Extinction, the creating his own universe with Stardust Revolution. Ares Shion's Stardust Revolution being said to have the power to destroy and recreate the universe, Shijima's attack being said to be capable of causing the destruction of the universe, Seiya raising his Cosmo as a mere Gold Knight and destroying Poseidon's Mainstay, which can also survive the end of the universe. Hell, even the LN written by Kurumada himself says the Gold Knights can destroy the universe if they want. These statements/feats are more consistent than Beerus' evidence for being universal.

Intangible attacks don't equate to matter manipulation on an atomic level. These same attacks one-shot SSJB Goku - proving his insides are still vulnerable. Seiya merely raised his Cosmo to the max and brought down the pillar by attacking its atoms. It was done at full power, but that hardly constitutes an amp. Beerus needs to be at full power in order to operate on a universal scale according to his own words and statements from Old Kai. Not to mention, those "casual strikes" were generating shockwaves said to grow stronger as they travel the vacuum of space.

"People, planets, Gods like us, even Beerus and Goku will be completely destroyed". Old Kai also said everything the universe itself would be transformed into an empty vacuum, meaning Goku, Beerus and even Whis' body would need to be obliterated.

@thedarkpaladin: I'm done mate. Nice points. I think i would abandon supporting the dragon ball fan base until further feats has been shown to put them at saint seiya,gurren lagan and Jo Jo verse tier level.

I was just running a random test earlier although i dont see vados outright getting oneshotted by seiya tho. I think it would be hard for seiya to put her down but he does stomp eventually.

@elderelijah190: That's fair enough. And same to you, man. Good discussion, as usual.

@jman88933: you got the wrong idea. I am not debating about SS vs DB just saying that 1. Vados staff is part of her she can summon it and use it whenever she wants and 2. That in DB travelspeed is slower than combat speed. Reasons for that are pretty much simple to explain. Everytime someone in DB travels from A to B their top speed is slower than what they show when fighting. Just check Cell vs Goku or Cell vs Gohan. The attacks reach outer space in seconds and they can react to them which would put them near LS to LS but when they travel later on in the Buu Saga they are much slower. This was always the case in DB.

First of all you are getting something wrong with Zeno. Lets use a real life example for it. A normal human can not track and react every fist thrown by a martial artist because he isn't trained enough and skilled enough. But someone who trained his whole life can react, dodge, block and counter attack the same attacks with relative ease. Same would go for Zeno aswell. It doesn't mean that he wouldn't be able to see it but that he never trained to have the skillset necessary for it. And we don't really know how he stacks up in physical stats so even if you could speedblitz him it doesn't mean that it would harm him in any given way. If that would be the case everybody would try to overthrow him.

Dyspo surpassed the speed of light and there is no other description than that. It could be 2x it could be 200,000x times without him using his technique to go 1000x faster and this is all without considering his Super light speed mode. But lets see other things going for him aswell. It will be a lot of powerscaling but it really doesn't matter because all is shown in the anime and manga.

Beerus lives in a planet inside a gas nebula. Gas nebulas are between 2 lightyears and hunders of light years in size. Lets use the lowest of those numbers and go with 2 light years and lets halve that number because the planet is located in the center. Beerus crossed that and went to a planet in an unkown solar system in 2 min and 20 sec. Without considering the solar systems size and the way he left behind between the gas nebula and the planet he landed and saying that he needed 2 min and 20 sec just to pass through the gas nebula his top speed would be 243,275,926,437,772.53 km/h which would make him 225,464 times the speed of light. This however is the lowest speed with everything pushed down to the lowest numbers. If we would say that he crossed a larger gas nebula with 10 lightyears in diameter or if we would use the road he passed between his gas nebula and the planet he landed on this number would increase tens of times.

Now we know for a fact that Beerus and Champa are pretty evenly matched. The same Champa had some serious trouble following Dyspo in his Light speed form. Don't get borthered by the name though because like i showed you above he is MFTL. This is however without using his maximum speed.

The Luffy and Ichigo example don't work in this instance tbh. The reason is that they are in a different universe with different speed feats where noone is near the speed of light in any given way without maybe Kizaru. But in DB we have SSG Goku vs Beerus which is in FTL to MFTL territory in early DBS. This would tell pages about how fast the movements must be in the fight if we only see them standing still and phrasing and not the actual movement.

And it really doesn't matter if Dyspo was using any mode there because his raction and senses should be able to be on the same level he should be used to those kinds of speed. The only logical conclusion would be that the speed Goku shown was far above what Dyspo was used to.

No Golden Frieza had trouble but he was not much slower:

He gets hit yeah but he can still block some of them and is shown as a blur like Dyspo is both in the actual fight and in the godPad. The biggest issue was that even when he wasn't faster by a huge marging he was still fast enough to cut Friezas escape way and Frieza was about to go ring-out.

Sorry but doding billions of light sped punches doesn't translate to being bilions of times FTL. If someone can dodge thousands of machine gun bullets this would make him still a machine gun timer. Because the speed for every bullet is the same. If he can react to one he can react to millions. As long as the punch is at light speed this would make Pegasus only LS. Not higher.

Blue Goku is pretty much in the same speed category as Golden Frieza who is, like shown above not slower by a large marging. Beerus and Champas lowest speed was calculated by me above so no need for anything else there. Every fighter i said above is in the range of thousands to milions of times faster than the speed of light. Whis, with the lowest of the lowballing is at least 10x faster the way he handles them all.

And last but not least. Expansion of the big bang in our obersveable universe in seconds from center on wouldn't be a different speed catergory from what Vados and Champa has shown in the manga:

Gallery

The Kaioshin realm is outside of the obersveable universe which is desrpited as infinite in size. Even if they were close to the end of the universe they needed to travel outside of it, pass countless galaxies and then pass through 1/20 of the DB universe (because the Kaisohin realm is 1/10 of it) in an instance. Because we don't know where they were exactly located at that moment it could be a lot faster than what we are talking about right now. Doesn't look like a big difference to me.

@kratosx64x: A few minor issues with your points:

1. If Pegasus can dance around 1,000,000,000 attacks in a second, then spam his own set of attacks that outpace Aiolia's, he would be faster than light by multiple times. Throwing a billion attacks in a second already requires FTL combat speed.

2. There was never any mention if Dyspo surpassed light speed without needing to increase his speed via the short bursts and the official Toei episode spoilers state light speed alone was giving Golden Freeza and Gohan a lot of trouble:

Now, you could argue light-speed was exaggerated in this context, but the same can apply for Aiolia's technique, given that he was already far surpassing light speed as a child and Kurumda tends to use LS as a dimension of speed for the Gold Saints rather than an absolute maximum. Similar to what he does with the Bronze Knights when claims they can reach speeds of mach 1, yet Seiya was surpassing that the first time he donned his Cloth.

3. The speed feats you're referencing so far aren't combat applicable and only pertain to travel speed. There isn't a universal rule that states combat speed is greater than travel speed in Dragon Ball, so the logical thing to do would be to discern them case by case. Furthermore, I'm unsure how Vados' travel speed feat to the Kaioshin Realm stacks up to Shura exceeding the initial expansion of the Big Bang. The universe went from smaller than a proton to the size of a marble in 10^-35 seconds according to the theory. That's MFTL+ speed to an absurd degree. For a direct comparison, 10^-35 seconds is to a second what a second is to 3.170577e+27 years. Shura's feat was also a combat speed feat, and Seiya in his God Cloth is vastly superior, so he would naturally scale.

@thedarkpaladin:

1. I wasn't reffering to how many attacks are done but how if the speed of the attacks are all steady at LS this would only make Pegasus FTL and that doesn't need to be MFTL. Roshi can catch hunderds of machine gun bullets with ease this however doesn't translate to him being hunderds of times faster than machine gun bullets at all. If his speed is fast enough to catch one he can catch millions. The speed aquierd for it wouldn't change at all.

2. There is nothing i can add to it other than what i said above with the caluclation. Dyspo being only light speed in super maximum speed mode wouldn't make any logical sense because he was at the end of Champas reaction range. If you see a logical mistake i made with the calculation or anything i put out of proportion in the numbers i would love to corect myself. Nothing wrong with that. And there wasn't any mention of him requiring his speed mode to surpass the speed of light either but tbh he doesn't need to be. In his speed mode he would be as fast if not slightly faster than Champa and in his Super maximum speed mode (which is by the way a really stupid name) he should be far beyond that. Can't talk about Aiolia.

3. I gave examples how it is established in DB till this point. In every occasion the travel speed is slower. Examples for it would be: Cell moving his head before the final flash hit him, Goku using IT before Cells Kamehameha hit him, Radditz dodging the SBC, Piccolos explosion at the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi which covered a country sized island in seconds and Goku reacting to it while still flying with the Nimbus. After all that they still weren't near as fast in travel speed like we saw with Goku in Snake way, Krillin needing hours for reaching Gohans location, when Vegeta thought that it is impossible for Goku to travel to Muten Roshis Island and back and Goku and co. flying to Buus location. There is not one instance where it is shown the other way around. Don't know why Vados would be any different because we know for a fact that Whis can go from his Top Speed to a halt and back into his top speed within seconds:

And it translates to real life aswell. Everybody who trains enough can punch, kick, dodge and block faster than their own running speed.

What i was trying to say is that it isn't far apart from eachother. Lets not go by the theory and say that it expanded within an instant from a proton to the now known universe. Vados can travel from a unknown place within the universe to outside of a universe with conuntless galaxies through 1/20 of the known universe in an instant. Both are almost instantaneous speed feats on an universal scale. The only problem i have is that we don't know where Vados was located at the time. If she was at the other end of the universe when they started the flight and if she crossed 70% or 80% of the obersevable universe that instant it would be far more impressive than if she would be near the kaioshin realm already.

Seiya blocks an attack from this guy, who is already stated to be capable of throwing punches at FTL(right to left)

Gallery

@kratosx64x:

I wasn't reffering to how many attacks are done but how if the speed of the attacks are all steady at LS this would only make Pegasus FTL and that doesn't need to be MFTL. Roshi can catch hunderds of machine gun bullets with ease this however doesn't translate to him being hunderds of times faster than machine gun bullets at all. If his speed is fast enough to catch one he can catch millions. The speed aquierd for it wouldn't change at all.

Like you stated with Dyspo, it wouldn't make much sense for them to only be LS, since Aiolia had surpassed those speeds as a child before even awakening the 7th Sense fully. He was also not fighting at his best due to being brainwashed, while the Seiya who dodged these attacks was a mere Bronze Knight at the beginning of the series, who also hadn't yet fully awakened to the 7th Sense. It doesn't help much that Seiya was fatigued and even had a broken leg at the time.

There is nothing i can add to it other than what i said above with the caluclation. Dyspo being only light speed in super maximum speed mode wouldn't make any logical sense because he was at the end of Champas reaction range. If you see a logical mistake i made with the calculation or anything i put out of proportion in the numbers i would love to corect myself. Nothing wrong with that. And there wasn't any mention of him requiring his speed mode to surpass the speed of light either but tbh he doesn't need to be. In his speed mode he would be as fast if not slightly faster than Champa and in his Super maximum speed mode (which is by the way a really stupid name) he should be far beyond that. Can't talk about Aiolia.

The calculation seems fine. I ran the numbers you posted and difference between our end results is inconsequential. My problem doesn't lie with the math inasmuch as the reasoning behind it. Scaling Champa's reaction speed to Beerus' feat of traversing a nebula doesn't seem logically sound. For starters, flying through the vacuum of space doesn't require outstanding perceptional capabilities, especially when these characters have mastered the ability to lock onto a Ki signature and follow it without even needing to use their eyes. Furthermore, it becomes much easier to track objects in the vacuum of space than in close proximity to you on Earth. For example, when we look at a plane flying through the sky at roughly 500mph, it doesn't seem to be moving all that fast from our perspective. However, if someone were to throw a punch or kick at your from close range at those speeds, you'd be hit before you know what happened.

I gave examples how it is established in DB till this point. In every occasion the travel speed is slower. Examples for it would be: Cell moving his head before the final flash hit him, Goku using IT before Cells Kamehameha hit him, Radditz dodging the SBC, Piccolos explosion at the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi which covered a country sized island in seconds and Goku reacting to it while still flying with the Nimbus. After all that they still weren't near as fast in travel speed like we saw with Goku in Snake way, Krillin needing hours for reaching Gohans location, when Vegeta thought that it is impossible for Goku to travel to Muten Roshis Island and back and Goku and co. flying to Buus location. There is not one instance where it is shown the other way around. Don't know why Vados would be any different because we know for a fact that Whis can go from his Top Speed to a halt and back into his top speed within seconds:

In all honesty, the same point can be used to say Saint Seiya characters have much faster combat speed than travel speed based on consistent showings of the former eclipsing the latter. One such instance would be Bronze Knight Seiya traversing billions of galaxies in seconds to a couple of minutes at max, then reacting to Thanatos' energy attacks that was shown to cross the same distance and more in an even briefer timeframe. Based on this instance alone, his travel speed feats would already be on par with Whis and Vados'. His attributes increase substantially once he dons a God Cloth. However, that benefit of the doubt hasn't been given to SS characters in this thread by the opposition, so it seems unfair to ask for the same of DB characters.

And it translates to real life aswell. Everybody who trains enough can punch, kick, dodge and block faster than their own running speed.

This is true, but fiction doesn't always adhere to real life logic. We've seen examples of characters fly through the vacuum of space at MFTL speeds, yet consistently fight on Earth much slower than that. One such example would be Superman.

What i was trying to say is that it isn't far apart from eachother. Lets not go by the theory and say that it expanded within an instant from a proton to the now known universe. Vados can travel from a unknown place within the universe to outside of a universe with conuntless galaxies through 1/20 of the known universe in an instant. Both are almost instantaneous speed feats on an universal scale. The only problem i have is that we don't know where Vados was located at the time. If she was at the other end of the universe when they started the flight and if she crossed 70% or 80% of the obersevable universe that instant it would be far more impressive than if she would be near the kaioshin realm already.

The initial expansion theory doesn't say the universe went from the size of a proton to the known universe instantly. It was thought to have gone from around the size of a proton to the size of a marble in an unfathomably short period of time (10^-35 seconds) - almost no time at all. At these speeds, one could cross the observable universe multiple times before an entire second were to pass.

@thedarkpaladin: Again i am not debating for DB side in any given way :D i was just trying to make a point on how travel speed is normally slower in DB and that the Staff is part of Vados. The speed calculations came with Dyspo only being LS. If it is shown that in SS verse their combat speed is much higher (which would make logical real life sense like we both said before) by all means it is solid. Nothing would speak otherwise.

About the Champa reaction. Even if it is in space you have to react at the same speed you can travel when it comes to your own body. It wouldn't make any sense if your reaction time would be slower. Normally most people can react or at least follow objects much faster than their own body speed.

I am not familiar with the theory at all but what the scan showed was pretty vauge about the whole sceanrio tbh. Can you give me some backup info for the feat?

Seiya stomps.

@rabii99: Champa already has FTL speed, so don't know why "Could you see that" should matter here.

If I'm not mistaken, Vados hasn't shown any combat feats.

@kratosx64x:

Again i am not debating for DB side in any given way :D i was just trying to make a point on how travel speed is normally slower in DB and that the Staff is part of Vados. The speed calculations came with Dyspo only being LS. If it is shown that in SS verse their combat speed is much higher (which would make logical real life sense like we both said before) by all means it is solid. Nothing would speak otherwise.

With Dragon Ball, it's usually not easy to gauge an exact speed, because many of the instances you provided show a Ki blast traveling into space (typically just beyond the planet's atmosphere) in a panel or two. So not only does trying to get an idea of the distance rely on visuals, but the exact timeframes are often undisclosed. Given the distance the roughly estimate distance those beams travel, each second that passes by can make all the difference for the feat.

About the Champa reaction. Even if it is in space you have to react at the same speed you can travel when it comes to your own body. It wouldn't make any sense if your reaction time would be slower. Normally most people can react or at least follow objects much faster than their own body speed.

Not necessarily. The vacuum of space provides zero resistance so one could gain velocity rather easily. Again, look at Superman for example: He's been know to fly to other star systems at MFTL speed, yet still get tagged by things that slower than LS in a combat scenario.

I am not familiar with the theory at all but what the scan showed was pretty vauge about the whole sceanrio tbh. Can you give me some backup info for the feat?

In essence, Gold Knight Shura, who was already moving and attack at speeds far beyond that of light, was unable to bypass Roland's precog in order to land a blow and defeat him. To do so, he needed to increase his speed by spiking his Cosmo and exceeding his casual limits. The "initial expansion of the universe, before the speed of light was even born" is referencing the brief period of super fast expansion during the Big Bang that happened in total darkness, as light did not yet exist. It's worth noting that while this fast expansion, and even the Big Bang itself, is a theory in real life, they're both canon events within the Seiya universe.

@thedarkpaladin:

With Dragon Ball, it's usually not easy to gauge an exact speed, because many of the instances you provided show a Ki blast traveling into space (typically just beyond the planet's atmosphere) in a panel or two. So not only does trying to get an idea of the distance rely on visuals, but the exact timeframes are often undisclosed. Given the distance the roughly estimate distance those beams travel, each second that passes by can make all the difference for the feat.

True it is not easy to establish a exact speed but what it establishes more or less is the difference in travel to combat speed. Vegeta, even in the Buu saga after training for years straight wouldn't be able to travel as fast as Cell when he dodged his Final Flash even if it was just a head movement. It is unbelivably stupid tbh. There is not a single reason why they shouldn't be able to be as fast in traveling speed but it is how it is.

Not necessarily. The vacuum of space provides zero resistance so one could gain velocity rather easily. Again, look at Superman for example: He's been know to fly to other star systems at MFTL speed, yet still get tagged by things that slower than LS in a combat scenario.

I get the idea. But this wouldn't take anything away from his precpetion in sight. His eyes should be used to that kind of speed. Even if he himself can't go at his top speeds on earth his eyes should follow anything in the range of his top speed.

In essence, Gold Knight Shura, who was already moving and attack at speeds far beyond that of light, was unable to bypass Roland's precog in order to land a blow and defeat him. To do so, he needed to increase his speed by spiking his Cosmo and exceeding his casual limits. The "initial expansion of the universe, before the speed of light was even born" is referencing the brief period of super fast expansion during the Big Bang that happened in total darkness, as light did not yet exist. It's worth noting that while this fast expansion, and even the Big Bang itself, is a theory in real life, they're both canon events within the Seiya universe.

Interessting. But my issue would be if this is more metaphorical or is this actually what he was doing. I need to dive into SS aswell i suppose

@kratosx64x:

True it is not easy to establish a exact speed but what it establishes more or less is the difference in travel to combat speed. Vegeta, even in the Buu saga after training for years straight wouldn't be able to travel as fast as Cell when he dodged his Final Flash even if it was just a head movement. It is unbelivably stupid tbh. There is not a single reason why they shouldn't be able to be as fast in traveling speed but it is how it is.

If we were to apply real life logic, I would be inclined to agree. On the other hand, we usually differentiate travel, combat and reaction speed here on the Vine due to many examples where a variety of characters are shown to excel in a particular facet. It's not like it's a rule that's only applied to Dragon Ball. However, I can agree DB characters' blast speed is usually shown to be faster than their own movement speed, barring a couple of exceptions.

I get the idea. But this wouldn't take anything away from his precpetion in sight. His eyes should be used to that kind of speed. Even if he himself can't go at his top speeds on earth his eyes should follow anything in the range of his top speed

Pretty sure it's much easier to perceive objects in space while traveling at high speeds due to the disparity in size. For instance, you could travel at hypersonic speeds while approaching other planets and still perceive them fine, but you probably wouldn't be able to keep track of anything on Earth while moving that fast. This video might help picture it a litte better:

Interessting. But my issue would be if this is more metaphorical or is this actually what he was doing. I need to dive into SS aswell i suppose

Given the serious moment in the story, it wouldn't make much sense for the statement to be metaphorical. Shura was on the verge of collapsing and explained pretty clearly what he needed to do in order to have a shot at winning. In addition, the super fast initial expansion concept isn't commonly known in the absence of research, making it even less likely that it would be used for storytelling as anything but a descriptive statement. Here's the entire scene:

https://imgur.com/a/3Kyfxce

@bdelloidgrain2: she was stated to be stronger and faster than whis and she was able to drag what essentially was six planets with the same mass of Earth across the distance of two universes in a couple of seconds without breaking a sweat.