Vader and Sidious vs Tassadar and Zeratul

VS

Standard Gear

Win by any means

Fight takes place in an uninhabited alien jungle planet

Zeratul teleports behind Vader's head and warp blades him while Tassandar holds Sidious long enough for Zeratul to once more teleport behind Sidious and perm kill him as well. Both can get one shotted via Zeratul's blade.

Feats for the Protoss? Also, which versions of Vader and Palpatine? Because the Disney versions are substantially weaker in overall physicals and lack their Legends selves' best feats and scaling.

@eredin12 said:

And how exactly is Team 1 blitzing along with one shotting when they can't physical touch Zeratul...

As for the other post in the other thread ill get it in a few days.

@eredin12:

TP? Legends is pictured.

You're argument was speed blitz and one shots. How are they suppose to be TP'd to death when both protoss weren't TP'd by Kerrigan who is planetary level.

Vader couldn't even TP SK let alone someone on either protoss caliber. Hell he's had so many fights where TP doesn't come into play until long after a fight has ensued.

How are do you suppose they TP Zeratul who sits between dimensions and can teleport right behind them.

Physicaly hitting does not matter there, force has been used to to even control spirits in Legends.

Once more Tassandar is more than capable of destroying fleets and continent level TK while severely weakened. He also managed to destroy an immortal and Zeratul already one shots immortals and their spirits with his warp blade.

Now tell me again how exactly is the SW team blitzing and one shotting here.

@tparks: is this Canon or Legends?

@pedrolopesmateus: I didn’t specify, so you go with whatever is most current, which is canon. I personally don’t think there’s that much of a difference between the two, besides it’s easier to wank the bloated Legends sources and ignore consistency. The consistent feats of characters carries between both Legends and Canon great though.

@tparks: Vader did appear in a special legends comic that got released in 2019 though. That said, alright, then canon it is.

@eredin12: since op confirmed this is just canon, do you still side with the Sith?

@eredin12: how powerful are the protoss?

@eredin12:

Show those planetary feats first, even them fodder Sith Lords have planetary TP feats, Emperor has RP feats in trillions range

No Fodder sith lords have TP feats on planetary level. Meanwhile protoss of every caste can reach across planets, systems, etc and become one via emotion and thought...

Before long, every caste on Aiur was one with the motherships and their crews. The chorus of glory spread to other planets. To other systems. To the whole empire.

-Starcraft End in fire

Only the Emperor has that kind of ability along with a handful of others. Kerrigan already reached out from Char to the Terran capital. All I can do is quote it but it was obviously from side of the galaxy to another basically ( again we don't have an actual map given to us. )

Feats for Kerrigan sending images and TP dreams to both Raynor and Mengsk, both in two different locals across space.

Duke broke the silence. "What do you want here, anyway? Looking to set up your own little kingdom now that you've been cut loose?" "I could ask the same thing," Raynor replied, leaning forward. "Why so far from home? Doesn't the Dominion need you anymore?" "I'm here on a special mission," the general replied pompously. "The Emperor asked for me to handle it personally." In fact, I bet you're here for the same reason." Had the Duke had the dreams too? No that was impossible--- Kerrigan had despised him as much as Raynor did..."Oh, don't I?" This time it was the Duke who grinned. "How're you sleeping, boy?"

-Starcraft Queen of Blades

Tassandar while super weak capable of showing a psi storm from space that only takes a few seconds to do so ( wont let me upload the comic bit for this for whatever reason ill have to find a way to do so. )

Fodder High Templars destroyed an entire fleet of Terrans without breaking a sweat,

The Marines and Firebats continued to dish out destruction in self-defense, but then one of the robed Protoss Templars climbed onto a pile of rocks. Raising his three-fingered hands to the sky, he summoned an awesome Psionic Storm that battered the Wraiths into confusion, slamming the single-man fighters together, driving several down to the ground as if they had been hit by a huge invisible flyswatter. Massively damaged, the Battlecruisers and the remaining Wraiths tried to pull away, but from the other side of the valley, a second High Templar called yet another Psionic Storm that hammered them from the east.

-Starcraft Shadow of the Xel naga

Kerrigan being born created within a second a continent sized psi storm what did vader do again when he was "reborn".... Crushed a little room.

Link

Link

Yeah naw, unless you're doing DE Sidious, it takes Sidious quite a bit of time to drop a sudden force storm of similar caliber. Vader isn't even a factor in this as he's never unleashed enough power to complete on what was just shown in raw power. Meanwhile Nova, the person I showed dropping her nuke level ability that once again no one in star wars is tanking point blank range, is fodder to the Protoss let alone two of their high tier warriors.

she was one of an elite squad of the most highly trained operatives in the galaxy, an expert in hand-to-hand combat, able to read minds, her suit enhancing her physical abilities far beyond a normal terran's. Nothing but protoss and the zerg Queen of Blades could boast of psionic abilities greater than those of ghosts.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

as well as heightened abilities that approach protoss levels.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

Even a psionic would have difficulty working with a protoss.

-Starcraft: Shadow Hunters

Valerian could easily believe it, if this was indeed what had happened. This was protoss psi-power, not human. Only a tiny fraction of humanity had any psychic ability at all, and only a small percentage of those could do what the ghosts could do. And from all accounts, even the most gifted, most finely trained human telepaths were pitiful compared to an ordinary, run-of-the-mill protoss

-Starcraft: Shadow Hunters

Even the human brain had to be redeveloped while a protoss took a human for a joy ride so to speak and have to rearrange his brain in order to make it even somewhat protoss level,

Who ... who are you? I am Zamara. These things I’m seeing, these ... visions ... what are they?They are not visions, Jacob. They are memories. I’m reliving your memories then? No, they are not mine. Not yet. How can you have memories that aren’t your own? It is ... complicated. But soon you will understand. We will work together on what you see, and why you are seeing it. We will work together so that you can choose what penetrates your thoughts, and what does not. You will require my assistance. Your brain ... it is somewhat limited with regard to its ability to process telepathically.

-Starcraft: First born

They had tried to include Raynor in the link but he’d wound up with no more than several strange images, a cascade of sounds, and a splitting headache. “Your mind is not meant for such uses,” the Praetor pointed out afterward, sounding slightly apologetic.

-Starcraft: Queen of Blades

Hell even untrained protoss are capable of continent level destruction. Yes, imagine a Padawan capable of doing this, ( have to re-read the novels real quick to show case this )

rofl that isn't happening and if it does, its one in a million chance while the protoss have an entire history of stating exactly why they must training for,

The Templar master of training came to them and knelt. The rigors of warrior training had been enshrined among the protoss for generations upon generations. From a young age, the Templar were tested for combat aptitude. Those with spiritual leanings would be mentored by the high templar in the use of psionic warfare. Those with physical gifts would learn the art of the blade and the dances of war. Now some were suggesting that the two schools of training should be combined. The warrior zealots would wield psionic power in more ethereal ways. The high templar would stride onto the battlefield trained in hand-to-hand combat. Perhaps one day, the differences between them would be erased entirely. There would be only one approach to martial training.

-Starcraft: End in Fire

Rohana showed him not one memory but dozens. Battles. Zealots who excelled in combat. High templar who turned the tide of war in an instant. "See the way they move, the way they think," Rohana said. "See their focus. They claimed victory in impossible circumstances because they were masters of their gifts. They did not waste their training, struggling to adopt ill-fitting techniques. They were brought to the finest edge of skill and righteous rage in accordance with their talents and natural aptitude. They were kept there by masters such as you. Wars do indeed bring new tactics. But it is the highly trained warrior who can adapt. Those who know their own potential know how to employ it."

-Starcraft: End in Fire

For centuries, Vorazun's people had traveled to the region to meditate and train in bending the Void to their will.

-Starcraft: Children of the Void

I have been training dark templar far longer than you have been alive, Commander. Almost as long as there have been dark templar.

-Starcraft: Lens of the Void

Furthermore each Zealot has decades of training as well much like the jedi if not more due to protoss being capable of living for thousands upon thousands of years old.

Along with having superior martial arts skill. Zamara in possession of a human with no actual real fighting skill was capable of killing soldiers and pulling off excellent martial arts.

He didn‘t underestimate Zamara‘s prowess—she knew every fighting technique every protoss had ever known, after all—but he knew the limits of his own body, and there was no way a human could win this particular fight. Not even a human with a protoss at the wheel.

-Starcraft: Twilight

Anyway enough of this.

SK is Emperor level, he is above Vader, that is the reason

Except he didn't start off that high at all. Half the time you're also not tping anyone to death as SK either. SK didn't even TP Vader to death as well, so once more. Not happening unless said person is way below Vader in TP scale which neither protoss are, try again.

Which is fodder, continental TP is nothing to team 1, especially Emperor. Here are TP feats for Emperor:

I didnt mean TP, I meant TK. Protoss are shown to communicate just fine across planets and star systems. Continental TP is fodder for even the avg protoss caste. No one is getting TP'd here to death.

Again how does the SW team win by speed blitzing and one shotting...

@merulezall: From reading the arguments; just a heads up that Vader's TP is rather lacklustre, nor is TP something he's well-known for. His best TP feat is probably ripping knowledge from the mind of the genius behind the Death Star array, probing an emotionally unstable ROTJ Luke's mind, or waging a telepathic war with pre-ESB Luke from across the galaxy, whereas at other times he's failed to extract information from ANH Leia's mind even after she's been tortured and drugged. The same goes for Starkiller, whose only TP feats are nonexistent. TP is a murky area for scaling, and not something that Force users scale off each other without direct telepathic or willpower combat between them to assert superiority.

Honestly, now I think this is a mismatch. Everyone knows Disney Canon SW characters don't have TP above city level, not even the god-tiers. If the Protoss have continental TP there is no way anyone can argue they lose. I think if it were legends the Sith would win but many would disagree.

@somedud: Vader and Sidious didn’t just TP every battle in Legends. Consistency matters. This fight isn’t going to come down to who is better at TP.

But yes, the Protoss are much better at TP then both Legends and Canon Vader and Sidious, which shouldn’t be surprising, as they’re entire race is built upon using TP to do everything. Even then, the Protoss don’t just use TP to win all of their battles, they use all of their psionic abilities, which isn’t limited to TP.

Star Craft team wins. In a good match though.

@eredin12:

I was originally under idea that it was Legends, due to picture but OP said that is not the case.

That's a canon picture, from the 2015 Vader comic series.

It still seems very cheap for the Protoss to have a way to instantly beat the Sith. You should at least edit the OP to restrict the use of mindrape.

@eredin12: Since Fizz, who lowballs Vader to below building level and subsonic, thinks this is a good fight, I imagine the Sith outclass the Protoss in terms of power and speed, fwiw.

@somedud: I can’t make rules that force people to use consistency and common sense, and I’m not going to change a battle to accommodate people who choose not to.

Legends = Sith duo. Canon = Protoss duo

@somedud: You got the other thread locked, but it still applies to how you view Vader, so I’ll put my response here.

Captain America can hurt Panther with punches, so a force push which Threatens to take down a Star Destroyer (something done by a much weaker Luke version than the one Vader fought on equal grounds) would do just fine.

Pushing a ship in space doesn’t take a ton of force. Any amount of force will push something in space, when there is no gravity or friction in the air. I think it’s safe to assume the writers didn’t take this into account, since Star Wars writers ignore all physics, specially when dealing with space, but even if we take it that Vader has Star Destroyer level TK, even in a normal atmospheric and planetary gravity condition, that still doesn’t prove he would use it to kill someone with that much force.

Every single one of Vader’s fights could have been instantly won if he used this level of a force push, but he never does it. Common sense and consistency matter. Saying he would use that on someone like BP, and saying BP gets killed by Cap because of it, is ignoring all consistency, and choosing to lowball one character, and wank another.

BP can block a direct punch from Namor with the back of his hands, and completely tank it. Namor is at least 100,000 times more powerful then Cap. He has the strength to actually replicate any of Vader’s TK feats with his physical strength, and then some. This isn’t an outlier for Vibranium either.

This post is honestly more about Panther than Vader. I don't like mainstream Marvel or DC so won't debate that any further. FWIW though, I didn't ask that thread to be locked, just tagged a Mod who knows both 616 Marvel and SW and asked if it was a mismatch.

Having said that, I refrained from mentioning the best feats for SW characters on that thread, since I felt Luke's feat was enough.

@somedud: I wasn’t accusing you of anything bad. Sorry if it came off that way. I could care less if it was locked, I just wanted to reply.

@eredin12:

Well fodder is relative, but Exar Kun, fodder to to this tier scanned minds of 310 billion people:

Nothing suggests he TPed an entire planet. The only thing that it suggests is that he TPed the people operating the scanners like so,

"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"

So what you're telling me is the planet has 310,000,000,000 technicians????

Reaching across planets is not same as planetary TP though , for that you need to control or affect entire population of planet

Which Kerrigan does via zerg, meaning she's capable of applying her forces to multiple planets all at once and using her tp to control the zerg. Mind you the zerg has other leaders and will certainly over throw her at the sign of any weakness and she's already dealt with a zerg civil war; Brood War. So again it doesnt matter. Kerrigan has again failed to TP Zeratul and Tassandar and even worse Zeratul has already TP'd Kerrigan so I'm not seeing the problem here.

That is range, but he still only affected one or 2 people, even if it is across large distance, not entire planet

Range matters as well in this argument. Vader has yet to mind rape 1 million people to death. If he has show it now. I dont want scaling garbage. Kerrigan already did this already in her weakened human state near her death bed in a jumpsuit...

The jumpsuit

Sarah!

Clad only in a simple jumpsuit, she was almost more frightening to behold than the Hybrid with which she battled. She had no weapons; she did not need them.

-Starcraft: Flashpoint

Being so far out of her game

She was so abysmally far from the top of her game it was laughable.

-Starcraft: Flashpoint

The feat

Between them and Narud and the Artifact were about a million marines. And one Hybrid. The thing went right for Sarah, and she for it, each doubtless recognizing the most dangerous foe. This one had no legs, but still moved with shocking speed on its serpentine lower body. Bat-like wings, distrubingly reminiscent of those belonging to the Queen of Blades,stretched outward. Two sets of pincers reached for Sarah, hue enough to snap her in two if they closed upon her. They didn't she nimbly leaped out of the way a gymnast in a copettion that granted life to the winner, and landed like a cat. she reached out her arm and the hybrid stumbled backward, covering its head with two of the pincer-arms before renewing its attack.

-Starcraft: Flashpoint

But Sarah didn't move. She stood, spattered with gore, and clenched her fists. A sudden wave rolled off her. Like dominoes, the marines dropped. the Wave went all the way up to the dropship as Sarah cleared a path paved by human ruin. She stood for a moment longer, swaying, and then collapsed.

-Starcraft: Flashpoint

Vader has never done anything on this level while seriously injured and basically out of his game as well, nor has he done it with as much ease.

Once more a stronger version of Kerrigan has already lost to Zeratul in TP and failed to TP Tassadar.

Vader was not trying to crush more there , context matters

Man are you choosing to be this silly or does it come naturally? I said when they were both reborn what were the affects.. One caused a continental storm the other crushed a room; didn't even manage to do that out of pure rage. The power difference is beyond laughable.

SK did not start that strong but then he was fully loyal to Vader due to him being raised that way so there was no need, as for why SK did not TP Vader, since TP is not his style, TK/ lightning is

Once more he didn't TP vader even when he was damn near close to losing because he couldn't. He couldn't TP someone on vader's level.

You see this TP argument is such garbage because in SW people TP to control one another. In SC, especially ghosts who are assassins and are known to generally kill people with their TP. Nova herself had to kill with TP in order to actually graduate for her class.

She was to kill them from a distance, using telepathy. Yes, her training was complete, and she should have been able to take down Nadaner and his people physically with little difficulty.

-StarCraft Ghost: Nova

You read correctly. You see the difference here is Ghosts have consistently tped one another and or their foes including protoss because of their training. They don't mind control they just fry your brain/ squish it into mush physically as well. Only in special cases do ghosts TP to mind control in which they don't even need to because they can just passively know all your information within a split second,

information gathering passively; there's more but this should be pretty damn obvious,

They are not confined as I am—they are free to move, though their minds are oddly blunted. They are my captors, conveying me in my confinement. I can hear their thoughts, slithering across me, through me.

-Starcraft: Queen of Blades

She couldn't help reading people. In Nova's experience, most hid their real selves from the world, constantly questioning both their own decisions and those of others.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

Silence, Nova had managed to quiet--or at least dim--the voices in her head.

-StarCraft Ghost: Nova

When she came to the AAI, the voices quieted. Perhaps because the only "person" around was an artificial intelligence that didnt have any thoughts. Because that's what I'm hearing. thoughts. Like with Morgan. Maybe like it's been all along I can feel what people think.

-StarCraft Ghost: Nova

The thoughts slammed into her brain, denying her the peace that AAI had given her.

-StarCraft Ghost: Nova

“Thinking,” said Kerrigan with a grim smile, “is the one thing a telepath can’t avoid."

-StarCraft: Liberty's Crusade

We hear all the surface chatter, all the stuff that’s on the top. What you’re thinking about. Errant thoughts. Whether that woman has a nice set of legs. All the stupid crap.

-StarCraft: Liberty's Crusade

Kerrigan’s lips made a firm line, and she shook her head. “Most telepaths avoid one another. I don’t even talk to the ones in Duke’s command. It’s bad enough being around the continual chatter of normal people. Being with another telepath is a hundred times worse. People can’t control their thoughts, at least not very well. Ghosts read other ghosts very well, and form their own feedback loops. Most need psionic dampers to keep them sane. That’s like the neural resocialization, but much, much worse.

-StarCraft: Liberty's Crusade

The mental disturbance Sarah had felt when the dropship landed had increased now to the point where she could no longer push it to the back of her mind.

-Starcraft: Uprising

Mixed emotions flooded over Sarah as she was bombarded with the immediate reactions of those around her: anxiousness, dread, nervousness, doubt, and hope were all among them.

-Starcraft: Uprising

The mental bombardment was disorienting for a moment, as Sarah felt herself right in the middle of it, being jostled from all sides, like floating in the midst of a raging ocean. She set up a barrier inside her mind, using her will power to mute out the swarming alpha waves.

-Starcraft: Uprising

Fight between ghosts/spectres usually starts with and can very well end with

Both of the spectres broke their concentration for a split second, and that was enough. Nova found a gap between their psychic fingers and pushed her way in. The first spectre shuddered and dropped without a sound, bleeding from the eyes. She whirled.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

Then its simple, your brain just gets squished and exploded,

The major tried to put his back to the wall but he was on the floor of the lift before he could move. He felt an immense pain in his head then, a swelling. It felt as if his brain was expanding,pressing against the insides of his skull. He felt fireracing through a vein in his forehead and along hisbrow. The major began to scream.Sarah did not stop her mental assault, even after Major Rumm's eyes exploded from their sockets.

-Starcraft: Uprising

There were eight marines as she rounded the corner. They were in full combat suits, moving quickly, their metallic arms easily bearing weapons nearly as large as the men they would be attacking. "Mengsk!" Sarah shouted."Mengsk! Watch this!" At the first sound they turned and lifted their weapons. They never fired a single shot. The visors of their helmets were suddenly spattered with red, and they dropped where they stood.

-Starcraft: Flashpoint

or fried in an instant,

Nova fried the brains of the last marines with a focused mental push.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

"You first." She tore his visor off his helmet, locked eyes with him, and felt his surprise and fear as the full force of her mind focused inward and his brain cooked instantly in his skull. Ward's eyes burst in a bloody shower of gore, and his head slumped forward on his chest.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

There is no need for them to bother with mind controlling and when it comes to a TP fight we very well know what happens, it comes down to who can cook who's brain faster as shown down below between two other ghosts,

But by then she had locked to his position and pushed, hard, her frustration pouring out of her in a blast of teek energy that took her breath away. Holt cried out--whether it was uadible or inside her head, she didn't know---and she felt him push back, a feeble attempt to block the wave of power that was already cooking his brain.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

building until he felt himself lock into a particular wavelength and begin to vibrate,cooking her brain inside her skull.

-Starcraft Ghost: Spectres

I don't think you understand here. Unlike SW, SC doesn't waste time coming up with excuses as to why "such and such" doesn't do "such such." They understand just how important TK and TP really is and all of it is applied in SC all the time. There's no question about it. When a ghost enters a ship,

Your side arm, General. Give it to me now. I just watched you pull us away from the brink of destruction;well, now it's my turn to save the day. None of your soldiers have dealt with a Ghost before. He'll kill everyone on this ship if you don't do as I say."The general considered this for a moment, then nodded.There was, as always, something in his thoughts that she just could not read. He handed his weapon other. "I want you to activate the fire suppression systems in all corridors on the upper deck." Sarah pointed to several hallways just outside. "Shut down all lifts to the lower levels. We need to keep him isolated. There isn't much time. I assume you have a filtration mask somewhere on the bridge?"

-Starcraft: Uprising

This is the result and only Kerrigan was capable of stopping someone like a ghost back when she was in her early days as a ghost.

Vader on the other hand has used TP to attack more than once and scales from people with planetary feats, but really all of this is Legends, since OP said this is Disney canon though, i agree that team 2 wins

Stop with the scaling garbage, I want actual feats. Tassandar and Zeratul scale to Kerrigan because Kerrigan has controlled forces herself over the course of planets, not a planet, planets... She also has failed to TP Tassandar and Zeratul. Zeratul has in fact out done her in TP and unlike SW. SC makes it clear who generally has the superior TP generally wins and if neither has a solid advantage they move on to other solutions. I want scans of Vader mind raping a million people at once while being extremely weak and hilariously out of his game.

The TP argument is going to do you no favors. Once more you said the SW team will blitz and one shot. Show me how the SW team plans to blitz and one shot. How are they speed blitzing people who are FTL.

I was originally under idea that it was Legends, due to picture but OP said that is not the case.

Then it's a stomp in the protoss favor.

@breakofdawn said:

Agreed, Vader has never really applied TP feats in almost any of his fights and in canon this is where he applies it most. It doesn't matter due to the fact protoss on the avg are planetary level especially the likes of Zeratul and Tassandar.

Except there is a difference between the two. Legends characters as a rule have superior physicals and better high-end showings than their Disney counterparts, who are routinely unable to blitz non-Force Sensitive opponents that would never stand a chance against the Legends versions of those same characters. Palpatine alone has done things in Legends that are far beyond anything the Disney version has yet given us.

Pointing all of that out also isn't "wanking" or "ignoring consistency".

And Vader being below building level is obviously false. He has already destroyed a building (a cathedral), years before his post-Mustafar peak.

@shroudofsorrow: That’s not a rule. There’s no rule that says all canon characters have to be weaker. They are all consistently very similar. 19/20 feats are going to compare between the two. When you take the 20th, and base your entire opinion off of that, then you’re ignoring consistency.