Unsealed Meliodas(SDS) vs Wano Arc Luffy(One Piece)

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HitTheAssasin

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#1  Edited By HitTheAssasin

Dragon's Sin Of Wrath vs Straw Hat Pirates Captain

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Forgive the Luffy picture, there isn't any other half decent manga scan of Wano Luffy on google.

Rules and Stipulations

  • Current Luffy with all canon feats up to the end of Wano Act III
  • Meliodas with all feats prior to his death in Chapter 178
  • Both combatants start in base form, but can use Gears and the Demon Mark at will
  • Both combatants are motivated: Luffy thinks Meliodas is Kaido's 2nd in command, and Meliodas thinks Luffy is the newest member of the 10 Commandments(and their mindsets will remain that way throughout the fight)
  • Starting distance of 20 meters
  • Fight takes place in a 500x500x500 meter arena with gates on either end, leading into an open meadow
  • Win by KO, death or incapitation
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HitTheAssasin

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mevbi

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i will go with Luffy low-mid diff

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Yray

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#4  Edited By Yray

Luffy quite frankly mid diff at best

Future sight was already a hard ability to overcome with Luffy always having a window of several seconds to evade,dodge or stop Mel's attack he does it ,Now this new Haki just makes durability for Mel mostly irrelevant and AP for Luffy quite deadly

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KingGuinness

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I'd give this to Luffy with around mid difficulty. Meliodas is a dangerous opponent for Luffy due to his piercing capability with Lostvayne and his versatility with Darkness/Hellblaze but even base Luffy will be nigh untouchable to him due to his natural reaction speed and Future Sight. Future Sight significantly lowers Mel's chances of tagging Luffy with an AOE Darkness/Hellblaze attack and Advanced Armaments hard counters Mel's demon regeneration.

Gear Fourth would turns this into a stomp unless Mel goes all Danafor on Luffy.

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LeoTheGreatest

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Luffy relatively easily

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ASimpleLad

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#7 ASimpleLad  Online

I feel if it was current Mel he could take it, but Luffy should take this fight easily due to his future sight

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AlexTheBoss

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#8  Edited By AlexTheBoss

With his now armament haki power and future sight, I can see Luffy winning, but it wouldn’t be easy. If Meliodas goes assault mode (he technically can at this point) he should win.

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AlexTheBoss

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Occhidifalco11

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Luffy mid diff at max

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MrViking

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This mel get stomped. Am mel have better chance. DK mel maybe win this. So luffy stomp.

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AlexTheBoss

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@mrviking: DK Mel maybe wins? He stomps. Even base Meliodas was beating demon king Zeldris.

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SkySanji

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Yeah Luffy has gotten stronger this is a mid diff fight for him now.

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HitTheAssasin

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Interesting. This is maybe the first time I've found myself disagreeing with practically the entire Vine on a battle, especially a NNT related one.

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KingGuinness

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Interesting. This is maybe the first time I've found myself disagreeing with practically the entire Vine on a battle, especially a NNT related one.

What do you disagree with?

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HitTheAssasin

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@kingguinness: As a whole, Luffy winning this fight in a clear cut way, I'd have personally said it could go either way with perhaps a slight edge to Meliodas. I'm guessing it's probably because I rate Luffy's speed a lot lower than most people here.

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KingGuinness

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@kingguinness: As a whole, Luffy winning this fight in a clear cut way, I'd have personally said it could go either way with perhaps a slight edge to Meliodas. I'm guessing it's probably because I rate Luffy's speed a lot lower than most people here.

He has everything he needs to win pretty decisively though. Future Sight + speed advantage means he's not getting tagged and Advanced Armaments bypasses Mel's durability and his regeneration.

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HitTheAssasin

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@kingguinness: That's the thing though. I don't believe Luffy is faster, nor do I think internal haki can bypass regeneration, not to mention how Meliodas' durability should scale approximately to a level where internal haki doesn't have the feats to completely blow his organs away. So you can see how I would think Meliodas can win, especially given his massive skill advantage and darkness manipulation.

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KingGuinness

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@kingguinness: That's the thing though. I don't believe Luffy is faster, nor do I think internal haki can bypass regeneration, not to mention how Meliodas' durability should scale approximately to a level where internal haki doesn't have the feats to completely blow his organs away. So you can see how I would think Meliodas can win, especially given his massive skill advantage and darkness manipulation.

Why don't you think he's faster? Luffy's explosion timing feat on Punk Hazard puts his base casual reaction speed at low quad mach and his combat speed in Gear Two alone is that fast. Bounce Man is leagues above that and Snakeman's attack speed is even more so. Future Sight is also a massive amp to reactions that i don't think you understand the magnitude of, as it allowed base Luffy to weave (Although inconsistently at that point in time) through Katakuri's punches when earlier on in their fight Katakuri was tagging and essentially blitzing Bounce Man. Current Luffy's Future Sight allows him to foresee entire sequences of attacks... so how's Meliodas ever gonna hit him?

Internal Haki works by projecting one's Haki into the opponents body to destroy them from the inside out. It's just Haki projected internally, so whatever Luffy's Haki potency is externally is how strong his Internal Haki is. Demon regeneration can be taxed and if you destroy all 7 of their hearts they die immediately. So why won't it work on Meliodas?

Luffy doesn't exactly need Internal Haki to win either. Internal Haki makes it plausible for base Luffy to win, but Bounce Man Luffy has enough power to rock Meliodas outright.

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shirso

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Damn you Guinness...

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Wot_m8

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#21 Wot_m8  Online

Meliodas takes this 6/10. Practically nothing Luffy can do about it. Their speed and strength is almost similar, Meliodas has great cutting prowess and regeneration to boot... the only reason he does not stomp is due to precognition.

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HitTheAssasin

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@kingguinness:

Why don't you think he's faster?

Because I don't believe in the main feat used to place Luffy concretely above triple digit mach: Punk Hazard is a feat I see used continually and it has yet to impress me in the least.

Luffy's explosion timing feat on Punk Hazard puts his base casual reaction speed at low quad mach and his combat speed in Gear Two alone is that fast.

I don't believe Punk Hazard is even triple digit mach in anything, let alone quad digit mach. Would you mind explaining in a detailed manner how you came to the conclusion this is the case? I've heard explanations from several other One Piece debaters on the matter of PH as an impressive feat, namely Gear and Shirso, and I found neither of them to be logically consistent with the premises of the feat nor the things we see on-panel.

Bounce Man is leagues above that and Snakeman's attack speed is even more so. Future Sight is also a massive amp to reactions that i don't think you understand the magnitude of, as it allowed base Luffy to weave (Although inconsistently at that point in time) through Katakuri's punches when earlier on in their fight Katakuri was tagging and essentially blitzing Bounce Man. Current Luffy's Future Sight allows him to foresee entire sequences of attacks... so how's Meliodas ever gonna hit him?

I'm glad you asked. I do definitely agree with you that future sight is potent in its workings, but it's hardly something that can't be bypassed, especially with Meliodas' powers: It's entirely possible to force Luffy into positions where he is physically unable to dodge regardless of seeing things coming, given Meliodas' ability to effectively utilise up to half a dozen clones along with his power of darkness, which is capable of both large area of effect attacks and the creation of multiple indipendent darkness tendrils. This is especially true given his considerably superior close quarters skill.

Plus, it's not like future sight is all-encompassing: Luffy isn't Yhwach, he can only see one future, and the ability doesn't work if the user isn't calm enough.

Internal Haki works by projecting one's Haki into the opponents body to destroy them from the inside out. It's just Haki projected internally, so whatever Luffy's Haki potency is externally is how strong his Internal Haki is.

Even assuming Luffy is indeed capable of transferring 100% of his haki into his opponents body, something we currently have no proof of, can you quantify Luffy's offensive haki potency for me? The potency of just the haki surrounding his body, backed by none of his usual striking strength and how it would translate exactly to destructive capability? The best Luffy has done with internal haki is break steel, as I'm sure you're aware.

This is far from the only issue of internal haki though: You cannot prove to me how in-character it is for Luffy to use it against a random opponent, whether it actually blows up people's hearts or entire bodies in practice or whether his use of it is 100% consistent or more similar to his future sight against Katakuri initially because he's never actually used it in a fight, the only showing of it we have is Luffy blowing up a tree. Before using internal haki as any sort of viable way to victory it'd be prudent to wait and see...how it's actually used in a fight.

Demon regeneration can be taxed and if you destroy all 7 of their hearts they die immediately. So why won't it work on Meliodas?

Because SDS characters actually have internal durability at a pretty consistently high level. Ban was incapable of taking out Estarossa's heart using Fox Hunt, Escanor withstood Meliodas torching his insides with Hellblaze and continued fighting(while it obviously did damage, his organs weren't completely vaporised either) and Ban adapted to the atmosphere of Purgatory which obviously doesn't discriminate, given the fact that the very air is poisonous. The same atmosphere Meliodas was fine in as well when he confronted his father just after his initial death, by the way.

Luffy doesn't exactly need Internal Haki to win either. Internal Haki makes it plausible for base Luffy to win, but Bounce Man Luffy has enough power to rock Meliodas outright.

Even if I agreed with this premise, Bounceman has a very clearly defined time limit. A time limit under which Luffy was incapable of putting down somebody like Doflamingo using his raw punching power, even despite the latters prior injuries and his organs being shredded. Given Meliodas' regeneration and raw durability, especially coupled with his ability to force Luffy to stay at a distance through the use of hellblaze and PoD based energy attacks, I can see him replicating that showing.

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ragegod

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meliodas slaps the weak one piece character

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KingGuinness

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@hittheassasin:

Because I don't believe in the main feat used to place Luffy concretely above triple digit mach: Punk Hazard is a feat I see used continually and it has yet to impress me in the least.

That's on you then. The feat has been explained to you time and time again on both Comic Vine and Discord and it's been quantified using real life experiments as a base so you can't even use the excuse that the feat is "unquantifiable".

I don't believe Punk Hazard is even triple digit mach in anything, let alone quad digit mach. Would you mind explaining in a detailed manner how you came to the conclusion this is the case? I've heard explanations from several other One Piece debaters on the matter of PH as an impressive feat, namely Gear and Shirso, and I found neither of them to be logically consistent with the premises of the feat nor the things we see on-panel.

What do you mean when you say you don't find it to be "logically consistent with the premise of the feat nor the things we see on-panel"? The premise of the feat is Luffy outracing a point blank explosion and the thing we see on-panel is Luffy outracing a point blank explosion.

Smilie is H2S gas and H2S gas explosions have been quantified in the low millisecond range. Before Smilie could burn through Luffy's clothes or make contact with Luffy's skin he outraced it. That puts his reaction/processing speed, when quantified, in the low quad mach range.

The explosion itself is not what is low quad mach, it's the way in which Luffy reacted and outraced it that would neccesitate him having reactions on that level.

I'm glad you asked. I do definitely agree with you that future sight is potent in its workings, but it's hardly something that can't be bypassed, especially with Meliodas' powers: It's entirely possible to force Luffy into positions where he is physically unable to dodge regardless of seeing things coming, given Meliodas' ability to effectively utilise up to half a dozen clones along with his power of darkness, which is capable of both large area of effect attacks and the creation of multiple indipendent darkness tendrils. This is especially true given his considerably superior close quarters skill.

Plus, it's not like future sight is all-encompassing: Luffy isn't Yhwach, he can only see one future, and the ability doesn't work if the user isn't calm enough.

Using half a dozen clones isn't the brightest idea on Meliodas's part since it proportionally splits his power. If we somewhat agree that Bounce Man and Meliodas are comparable in terms of raw physical strength/durability and Meliodas decides to go and create half a dozen clones of himself.... all the clones will become one shot material for Luffy. One Kong Organ spam takes care of the clones.

Because SDS characters actually have internal durability at a pretty consistently high level. Ban was incapable of taking out Estarossa's heart using Fox Hunt, Escanor withstood Meliodas torching his insides with Hellblaze and continued fighting(while it obviously did damage, his organs weren't completely vaporised either) and Ban adapted to the atmosphere of Purgatory which obviously doesn't discriminate, given the fact that the very air is poisonous. The same atmosphere Meliodas was fine in as well when he confronted his father just after his initial death, by the way.

Completely different levels here. BOS Ban is fodder to current Luffy and the Escanor showing isn't exactly the best form of evidence since, as you said, he got severely damaged and he himself is far more powerful than this version of Meliodas. Plus internal Armaments is blunt force not energy/heat.

Even if I agreed with this premise, Bounceman has a very clearly defined time limit. A time limit under which Luffy was incapable of putting down somebody like Doflamingo using his raw punching power, even despite the latters prior injuries and his organs being shredded. Given Meliodas' regeneration and raw durability, especially coupled with his ability to force Luffy to stay at a distance through the use of hellblaze and PoD based energy attacks, I can see him replicating that showing.

It doesn't work like that. You can't use a positive showing from Doflamingo to bolster your argument for Meliodas. Doflamingo and Meliodas aren't the same and that version of Luffy was injured and is weaker than his current self.

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HitTheAssasin

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#25  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@kingguinness:

That's on you then. The feat has been explained to you time and time again on both Comic Vine and Discord and it's been quantified using real life experiments as a base so you can't even use the excuse that the feat is "unquantifiable".

Is it, though? Is it really? I'm not one to oppose logic and solid conclusion drawing and we have discussed this multiple times. And yet, not even a single time, I have found this feat to be logically sound and acceptable under the premises you present it with. Is that really a fault on my part, or an inability to explain on yours? Perhaps you should hold up a mirror, because this argument goes both ways.

What do you mean when you say you don't find it to be "logically consistent with the premise of the feat nor the things we see on-panel"? The premise of the feat is Luffy outracing a point blank explosion and the thing we see on-panel is Luffy outracing a point blank explosion. Smilie is H2S gas and H2S gas explosions have been quantified in the low millisecond range. Before Smilie could burn through Luffy's clothes or make contact with Luffy's skin he outraced it.

Correct and correct. You're still missing one, though. The third premise that's consistently used to explain why Luffy had to have outraced it after it exploded is that it was omnidirectionally attached to his body. This part is vital, because it disqualifies the conclusion you attempt to draw, namely that Luffy had to have completely outraced it because neither his clothes nor his skin were damaged. This is because, if the explosion is omnidirectional, his clothes and body would have been tagged regardless of his speed, since the explosion resulting from the gas would have completely surrounded him from the get go.

That puts his reaction/processing speed, when quantified, in the low quad mach range.

It might, if the conclusion you drew from your premises wasn't a contradictory one.

The explosion itself is not what is low quad mach, it's the way in which Luffy reacted and outraced it that would neccesitate him having reactions on that level.

That much, at least, we can find common ground on.

Using half a dozen clones isn't the brightest idea on Meliodas's part since it proportionally splits his power. If we somewhat agree that Bounce Man and Meliodas are comparable in terms of raw physical strength/durability and Meliodas decides to go and create half a dozen clones of himself.... all the clones will become one shot material for Luffy. One Kong Organ spam takes care of the clones.

First of all, I wasn't under the impression we were assuming the opponent was Bounceman Luffy here, given how you were talking about the pirate as a whole and the OP specifies that he starts in base form, and that none of the usual stipulations in regard to "unlimited haki" or "no Bounceman time limit" are present, and you only really mentioned Gear 4th in your last paragraph.

Second of all: Even if I agree with the premise that Bounceman is the one who faces off against the clones and that he can indeed one shot them, I don't see how that impedes my argument. The whole purpose of the clones is to serve as a distraction for Luffy and his future sight, so them forcing Luffy to unleash an entire barrage of punches while the real Meliodas can capitalise would be a complete success on their part. Especially so since there's no shown limit to the amount of times Meliodas can recreate his clones: They're hardly a limited resource, nor one that's expensive to produce and given how their abilities are identical to Meliodas' own just weaker, hellblaze and darkness spam at their level will likely still be an effective method to damage Luffy and keep him at bay.

Completely different levels here. BOS Ban is fodder to current Luffy and the Escanor showing isn't exactly the best form of evidence since, as you said, he got severely damaged and he himself is far more powerful than this version of Meliodas. Plus internal Armaments is blunt force not energy/heat.

Yes, BoS Ban is fodder to current Luffy in regards to physical abilities: Can you say the same in regards to just his internal haki? Because if so, I'm sure you wouldn't mind showing me the feats that place the power of the portion of haki Luffy transfers into his opponents body significantly above Ban's strength. Then again, you did ignore that portion of my last response. As for the point in regards to Escanor, I think you may have missed it. This was me merely attempting to establish a baseline for why SDS characters organs are significantly less vulnerable than is normal, I never attempted to insinuate that Escanor's feat translated to immunity against internal haki.

It doesn't work like that. You can't use a positive showing from Doflamingo to bolster your argument for Meliodas. Doflamingo and Meliodas aren't the same and that version of Luffy was injured and is weaker than his current self.

Once again, you're missing the point entirely. I mentioned Doflamingo merely as proof that even characters significantly weaker and slower than Boundman have the potential to outlast his barrage of attacks, to capitalise upon his vulnerability after the transformation had expired, even whilst having sustained prior injuries. Essentially, as proof Boundman isn't an instant GG to characters who can't match him physically(even if I personally don't really think this applies to Meliodas). I even listed specific examples of abilities Meliodas has that would allow him to equal or even outperform Doflamingo in this regard, which you ignored.

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Ymirgod

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Meliodas has 4 clones, aoe attacks, revenge counter.

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El_directo_

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I still see meliodas taking this. The dude no sold gloxinia's attack which was like 5times bigger than a mountain. Heck even just the shockwave of the blast was destroying a mountain beside it. Luffy has yet to prove he's in this tier of power. Meliodas also scales to better speed feats(galan's jump). Then Factor in energy attacks like hell blaze a d regen. He smacks luffy mid-highdiff.

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Co-Boss

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Luffy’ has no answer to revenge counter which I think will be meliodas’a win condition. They have comparable in speed and striking. Meliodas has great cutting feats with his sword and his clones will help with Luffy’s gear speeds. If luffy starts to win with his further gears it’s very in character for him to start using when he starts losing. I can’t see luffy putting him down bc of his regen before landing revenge counter that should be strong enough to put luffy down

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NarutoIsPlanetLevel

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Luffy

but current Meliodas would win sadly

Luffy should be way stronger but Oda progression doesn’t always translate to power

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KingGuinness

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@hittheassasin:

Is it, though? Is it really? I'm not one to oppose logic and solid conclusion drawing and we have discussed this multiple times. And yet, not even a single time, I have found this feat to be logically sound and acceptable under the premises you present it with. Is that really a fault on my part, or an inability to explain on yours? Perhaps you should hold up a mirror, because this argument goes both ways.

Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the explanation given to you. This is simply an example of you being overly skeptical, and being overly skeptical is something you yourself have even admitted to on several occasions.

Correct and correct. You're still missing one, though. The third premise that's consistently used to explain why Luffy had to have outraced it after it exploded is that it was omnidirectionally attached to his body. This part is vital, because it disqualifies the conclusion you attempt to draw, namely that Luffy had to have completely outraced it because neither his clothes nor his skin were damaged. This is because, if the explosion is omnidirectional, his clothes and body would have been tagged regardless of his speed, since the explosion resulting from the gas would have completely surrounded him from the get go.

No, that's not true. The third premise is that Smilie is a sticky gelatinous substance that attached itself to Luffy's clothing, so in order for Luffy to outrace the explosion without being hurt he would have to move after it detonates. Smilie being attached to him eliminates the possibility of Luffy escaping the blasts AOE before it detonated due to it's sticky nature and if he moved beforehand the substance would've moved along with him as it's stuck to his clothing. No one said anything about it being omnidirectionally attached to his body and it doesn't have to be in order for it to be a showing of Luffy's reaction/processing speed.

It might, if the conclusion you drew from your premises wasn't a contradictory one.

It's not contradictory. I think you've been arguing with the wrong people.

First of all, I wasn't under the impression we were assuming the opponent was Bounceman Luffy here, given how you were talking about the pirate as a whole and the OP specifies that he starts in base form, and that none of the usual stipulations in regard to "unlimited haki" or "no Bounceman time limit" are present, and you only really mentioned Gear 4th in your last paragraph.

The opponent here is Luffy and Bounce Man is a form Luffy can access at will in a very short timeframe, is it not? Right.

Second of all: Even if I agree with the premise that Bounceman is the one who faces off against the clones and that he can indeed one shot them, I don't see how that impedes my argument. The whole purpose of the clones is to serve as a distraction for Luffy and his future sight, so them forcing Luffy to unleash an entire barrage of punches while the real Meliodas can capitalise would be a complete success on their part. Especially so since there's no shown limit to the amount of times Meliodas can recreate his clones: They're hardly a limited resource, nor one that's expensive to produce and given how their abilities are identical to Meliodas' own just weaker, hellblaze and darkness spam at their level will likely still be an effective method to damage Luffy and keep him at bay.

I don't see how the clones will serve as a distraction for Luffy and his Future Sight when Luffy's shown the capability to casually foresee sequences of attacks from multiple people while also in the middle of combat himself. Clone spaming against Luffy is an inherently bad idea from the get go from my perspective since OH/Future Sight will allow Luffy to see where the clones are originating from. With that knowledge in mind he can choose to simply ignore the clones and blitz straight for the OG Meliodas himself, who due to cloning will be operating at a drastically weaker level than norm. God help Meliodas if he decides to split his power into 6 clones of himself...

Yes, BoS Ban is fodder to current Luffy in regards to physical abilities: Can you say the same in regards to just his internal haki?

Considering internal Haki is literally the exact same as regular Haki but just projected into the opponents insides directly, yes i can.

Because if so, I'm sure you wouldn't mind showing me the feats that place the power of the portion of haki Luffy transfers into his opponents body significantly above Ban's strength. Then again, you did ignore that portion of my last response.

Haki potency isn't predicated on surface area. A "portion of Haki" isn't a thing, as the quality of Haki is the same all throughout. The quality of Haki that's on Luffy's pinkie finger is the same exact as the Haki covering his entire torso and this translates into offense as well.

As for the point in regards to Escanor, I think you may have missed it. This was me merely attempting to establish a baseline for why SDS characters organs are significantly less vulnerable than is normal, I never attempted to insinuate that Escanor's feat translated to immunity against internal haki.

Then what's the point in bringing it up? This all stemmed from the Advanced Haki debate and if you yourself admit it doesn't translate to immunity/resistance to Advanced Haki then you've basically admitted you have no counter for it.

Since you've basically admitted Meliodas doesn't have a legitimate counter to Luffy's Advanced Armaments you really only have a few options here; push for Meliodas's versatility or argue Mel's stats are so much higher than Luffy's that he'll never get tagged once and can one shot at any given time.

I don't conform to either notion since Meliodas's versatility is stunted by Future Sight and his physical showings don't exceed what Luffy performed in Dressrosa. IE: Snapping Doflamingo's strings puts Bounce Man's physical strength at multi-mountain+ at least, whereas i personally place this version of Meliodas at that level at best.

Once again, you're missing the point entirely. I mentioned Doflamingo merely as proof that even characters significantly weaker and slower than Boundman have the potential to outlast his barrage of attacks, to capitalise upon his vulnerability after the transformation had expired, even whilst having sustained prior injuries. Essentially, as proof Boundman isn't an instant GG to characters who can't match him physically(even if I personally don't really think this applies to Meliodas). I even listed specific examples of abilities Meliodas has that would allow him to equal or even outperform Doflamingo in this regard, which you ignored.

I understand your point, i just don't think it falls through since all of Meliodas's options are hard countered by the simplest abilities in Luffy's arsenal. You're also arguing using Dressrosa Arc Bounce Man as a base which is flawed for multiple reasons since Dressrosa Arc Bounce Man doesn't have current Luffy's improved stats, Future Sight and Advanced Armament. Current Luffy would end Doflamingo in a heartbeat.