Ultimate Street Finals: HigorM vs Major Hellstorm vs Blackestnight (Voting Open, Need Votes)

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SirFizzWhizz

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@higorm said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Sorry man, I've been very sick lately and also very busy with my wife's pregnancy so that's why I couldn't send my final post yet. I'll try to get it done today otherwise you can just finish this without me..

It is all good. I am waiting 2 of the 3 for posts, and this is finals so no need to ruch. When your done we can tag people and go to votes.

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Vertigo-

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@sirfizzwhizz: mine will be in by Sunday, Monday at the latest. Been out of town to attend my grandmothers funeral

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Vertigo-

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#53  Edited By Vertigo-
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Vertigo-

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HigorM

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Major_Hellstrom

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#56  Edited By Major_Hellstrom
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Major_Hellstrom

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SirFizzWhizz

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Major_Hellstrom

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@sirfizzwhizz: Okay. Btw, could you update my team list in the R1 of the other ultimate street tier tourney?

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HigorM

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#61  Edited By Vertigo-
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SirFizzWhizz

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#62  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

Final posts are in!

@major_hellstorm:

Counters: BlackestNight

Well, given that the perk I chose makes this whole battlefield pitch black,

I see, that does change things, however if sight is needed, Zuko can easily firebend us some light (he can shoot some out to the other side as well, but obviously only if needed or everyone will know where we are).

and none of your snipers come equipped with any form of thermal vision, your snipers are totally useless, as well as the majority of your team, considering I saw nothing about your team packing any sort of thermal vision equipment, so my team can practically dance their way past yours and you'd never know anything about it.

My fodder may be useless but not my entire team, as I have said Kraven can see in the dark, WBN can sense things in the dark and Zuko can light up the dark (not useful against you team but it helps against HigorM's). Also WBN has infared and ultraviolet vision which correct me if I am wrong is thermal vision.

No Caption Provided

My team aint got no fodder, and, like I said, you won't be seeing them, you won't be seeing anything, based on what you've posted so far considering this whole place is dark and there is no moon due to my perk

Same counter as above basically, more than half my team can negate darkness and my team (Kraven and WBN especially) can sense you.

So, they're all in a building? Nice, they can stay there and I can take them out at my leisure, or Higorms team can.

How will you know where we are though? Unlike HirgorM you have shown no way to find me except scouting which as I have said would make you vulnerable to HigorM's traps and more easily detactable (since you will spend time searching around our building giving us more time to spot you), p,us judging on the size of the cars the map is huge so finding us through luck is impossible.

Either way, my team vs your team ends in your teams destruction. Grifter destroys your fodder rapidly, and Backlash can destory all your 1 pointers as well as WBN. Ends in a very bad matchup for you. splitting your forces like you have lets my team divide and conquer if they so wish

WBN is not a 1 pointer. Anyway, if you do find us (both teams) how do you plan on attacking? You say divide and conquer so I assume you plan on taking my teams out one at a time, but that won't work. My team will know if you killed the spotters (Kraven has his eyesight even without light and he is close enough to see the other team in case they die) so we can hide somewhere else, inside the building. My team isn't planning to win a straight up fight, we are planning to out last you (there is no reason for you to be chasing us first and HigorM's team is setting up traps around the place, you are both out in the open the chances of you engaging my team first is slim).

Your team gets taken out by mine insanely easy. Splitting your forces, as Tony Stark would say:

How will you take out WBN? I don't see any silver on you, unless you pack a punch stronger than Grey Hulk's you aren't putting him down with insane ease (intangability attacks aren't allowed). And like I said you aren't finding me before you engage with HirgoM's team either (no reason for you to gang up on my either) so even if you win that fight chances are you'll be weakened, enough for Kraven to sap your strength to make WBN be able to KO your team (but we only do that if victory is gurenteed).

Counters: HigorM

So by your strategy it looks like you took the "I Need Backup" perk which gives you 10 Navy Seals, which are basically fodder when compared to real comic characters. Any of my team members are able to take any number of them by themselves without much trouble, Winter Soldier can shoot them dead from distance, Ninjak can target them either from distance or up close and same goes for Zealot, all using stealth to remain unnoticed.

Normally I would counter this easily but because of a certain somebody killing the moon you'd be right, WS and Ninjak could kill the fodder from a distance. But I doubt Ninjak or Zealot can kill up close without my main team spotting them. However my team will still know they are under attack, as we are split into two and Kraven has bisual on the fodder team.

If we consider my strategy in comparison to yours, your team is divided that will actually make our job easier since Ninjak already knows your position while the opposite can't be said,

But you also know the position of BlackestNight's team, who would stumble into your traps or at least look easier to kill (his 2 members versus my 14 that you have zero knowledge on). Why would you attack me first?

so basically what happens is that they will be neutralized way before being able to give any info to the rest of your team.

No, like I said, the 2 teams are close enough for Kraven to see what is happening regardless.

From this point on it's just a matter of time until the others go down since the traps will be activated to draw their attention,

We won't be leaving our spots (unless victory is gurenteed) to fall for any traps.

also the fact that Six-Gun Gorilla and the other Seal dies your team will be forced out of their position to fight my team, whick is basically my whole plan from the start.

We won't be doing that. No one in my team would care if the spotters die. The plan is to outlast the enemy not kill them.

Conclusion:

This is an updated version of how I think the battle will go. So basically you have the same counters for me (take out my spotters then my main team), which amplifies the chances of your teams attack each other first even if both of you luckly never met the other team and found mine first. Here's why, BlackestNight says he would destroy my team (he says Backlash would stomp me solo so I assume he will be attacking up close plus Idk if Grifter has a sniper rifle) at the same time, HigorM's team snipes my team or attacks up close, which is the perfect time to ambush BlackestNight, he has no idea your there he is busy attacking my spotters and HigorM is in sniper postion. I can't think of any reason he wouldn't ambush BlackestNight.

That or the opposite happens (since HigorM wilk find my team before BlackestNight can) and Blackest night could ambust HigorM while he snipes me.

Either way, looking at it in all angles your teams should fight each other before my Main Team is attacked and be weakened by it which would make it easier for Kraven to sap the strength of the the survivors so WBN can kill them (I don't see any poison ressitance feats for anyone except for maybe misting but if HigorM's team beats BlackestNight how woukd you counter strength sapping or poison gauntlets?).

Final Thoughts:

As of writting I have no idea what BlackestNight or HigorM will bring up in there latest counter so please do keep that in mind in cass I claim something that sounds dumb in the future. Anyway these are my final thoughts (basically a short conclusion of the entire match):

  • BlackestNight hasn't shown the ability to find my team especially since we are hidden and in high alert.
  • BlackestNight hasn't shown the his team's ability to "practically dance their way past yours (my team)" especially without me knowing. I admit that his team *could be* pratically invisible to my team in terms of sight (WBN could possibly see you) but my team has AoE attacks (fire explosions, poison vapore clouds) and top notch senses that he has not yet countered.
  • BlackestNight claims his team can stomp mine both times which is a claim that lacks a source or strategy that allows that to happen. Now I haven't specifically countered Grifter or Backlash but based on what was shown Zuko's fire blast should KO Grifter and Backlash's misting could be countered by Kraven's strength sapping rays as it bypasses regen and can interact with mist (scientifically speaking rays equals light plus heat which can effect gas or spaced out liquid) as far as I know from what was shown).
  • Neither have shown any ability to resist poison vapore or darts.
  • Neither have shown the ability to take out Werewolf By Night.
  • HigorM's strategy of trap and ambush would not work.
  • HigorM has yet to show stealth feats for Zealot or a way to bypass senses for Ninjak besides sight and possible hearing (WBN can still detect him upclose via scent as shown before but here is an extra feat).
  • HigorM has yet to explain where Winter Soldier snipes me from. Stealth or no, being within sight of my team for more than 3 seconds will be enough for us to detect you especially after you snipe one person
  • Overall I still think that HigorM and BlackestNight's teams will battle eachother first leaving just 1 weakened team behind, for me to poison and murder (more striking/feats here and here for Kraven and WBN respectfully). My Spotter team is likely gonna die though.

@blackestnight93:

Counters

Major Hellstorm

Should be a lot of info and feats in this post, but you can check my previous rounds for more (round 1 is the only one that finishes though).

Alright, lets see what you've got

If Night Vision is all that is needed to counter your invisibility, Kraven has something very similar to it as shown in Venom (2011) issue #2 in his fight with Agent Venom (scan below).

meant to say heat vision goggles, it was a typo on my part. Normal NVG's don't let you see in thermal mode, hence you need things to pick up thermal signatures

So he has night vision dust, he can even fight well with it as shown here.

Well, unless this lets him pick up Thermal signatures as well, and there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that it does, this is irrelevant

Where Agent Venom says he is faster than eyes can track, which is impressive considering Venom is a bullet timer.

Both of my teams are bullet timers as well, and he still won't be able to see my team coming, based on what you've posted here.

I must admit I know very little about the predator's suit but my team has very good senses, especially WBN and Kraven (although I will focus on WBN for now as Kraven has night vision). As shown below.

Where it is said that he has senses 1 million times keener than Dagger's, he can taste Dagger's blood, see every little detail like Dagger's eye twitching and the oil on his gun.

I don't know who Dagger is, so I have no idea why this is supposed to be impressive, also, he says "about 1 million times" not exactly a million, I also fail to see how this lets him detect my team. Nothing there indicates that he can see in the dark, at best, he might be able to smell my team out, but with the conflicting scents of all your team members, fodder, the air, the enviroment, Higorms team, I'd say he'll have a tough time isolating my teams scent among all those other smells

Below (my team's edge section) is a quick rundown of what you are dealing with and how hard they are to put down.

Sure thing

In Werewolf By Night #42 it was shown that his blows could knock back the likes of Iron Man using nothing but a trash can (he did get dazed later on but it was not Iron Man's doing).

Marc hard counters anything physical you may try thanks to intangibility granted by misting, and Grifter should honestly be at too great a distance in combat for WBN to replicate this feat against him, considering your own scan points out that Jack was only able to tag Iron Man because he hesitated due to some blast that had weakened him. Although not a bad showing

He could also tank Iron Man's blows and blasts with no lasting damage (same fight as above, they fought cause IR thought WBN was an enemy).

This is blunt force damage quite clearly, something that neither of my team is coming at you with. Grifter uses firearms, which would be piercing damage, and Backlash is using energy based attack in his whips. Wrong type of resistance. Still though, great feat.

And he survived that fall Spidey said no one could live through with no lasting damage.

All that just proves that Spider-Man was wrong, really. Regardless, Cole has done all of this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
Grifter volume 1 issue 1

Now, I can't post the full thing due to the site scan rule, but after my scans end, he goes on to take down 2 more guys, including taking down one guy when he was held at gunpoint breifly, fly the ship to land 10 miles outside of where he wanted to go (he landed there in case there was a tracer on the ship, he confirms this on panel), all the while, with, as Cole describes it "a gaping wound in my gut" from an explosion he was caught in earlier:

Grifter volume 1 issue 1
Grifter volume 1 issue 1

Only after all of this does he actually pass out.You wanna talk about things that shouldn't be possible? Try finding a street leveler who can replicate something like this. This also does a double duty in showing Grifter's resilience against piercing damage. While he isn't piercing proof, one slash or stab isn't downing him clearly

He even took a haymaker from Joe Fixit and didn't get knocked out , in Incerdible Hulk #362.

And Backlash has tanked blasts from Helspont, who goes head to head with Majestic:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Backlash issue 8

Sure, he wasn't in the best shape afterwords, but it's more impressive considering Helspont was actively trying to kill him, as he confirms on panel:

Backlash issue 8
Backlash issue 8

At worst, I'd say this places them even in the pain tolerance department.

Also unless there is silver involved, WBN is pretty much healing from anything. Like this point blank headshot that didn't even faze him.

He recovered from a single bullet, wheras I've shown Grifter being able to score 5 headshots before the gunmen who were aiming at him could react. While this may not put him down, I haven't seen anything that he can shrug off a barrage of bullets like that, nor that it wouldn't hurt him. And Backlash doesn't use bullets, he uses psionic whips. And you haven't shown a lick of energy resistance feats from him, so from where I'm standing, Backlash should be able to take him down with little difficulty. Jack can't touch him thanks to misting, and he sure as hell doesn't have the durability feats to survive what Marc dishes out

As for your stuff with Zuko, I took a read through it, and it's not relevant to my team really. Nothing there about night vision or enhanced senses so there's nothing to counter as my team still has a stealth element when it comes to him.

Now lets get to what you posted for Kraven:

His most powerful attacks are poison based so I will show you the various poisons he uses but before that just one skill feat so you doubt doubt his power even without weapons.

He won't get so lucky against either of my team if he tries that approach. Backlash hard counters with misting and Grifter can quick draw against him (I posted a feat of him drawing and headshotting 5 people who were just about to kill him in my opener). And he still isn't seeing my team to begin with (again, my bad with the typo)

First up elephant knock out vapore.

The very short range attack? Also, easily countered by holding your breath apparantly, as Ka Zar did in the scan you posted, no reason my team can't replicate this counter.

Next poison gauntlet shooters with no antidote.

Any physical attack against Slayton is useless thanks to his misting and Grifter is just too fast and mobile for this to work. Not to mention, Kravens lack of sight will hinder him massively here. He could just as easily nail your fodder with this, or even your team, if, by accident.

Strength sapping rays that can bypass healing factors (also jungle senses more on that later).

Given the amount of combatants that are going to be in that area, he's just as likely to nail his fodder or teammates as he would be my team. I'd also wonder on how fast these things move, I ask this because my team could just as easily dodge this attack given their posted reaction feats if Kraven attempts to use it, and this is still assuming that Kraven doesn't succumb to the surprise attack

Kraven has good durablity/Hf as well for example, being able to smiles off an angry Spider-Man's punch, being ragdolled byHulk but the Hulk thinks Kraven will live, and being stabbed by Agent Venom with no sign of pain. But his speed is more reliable.

The first is a blunt force attack, which neither of my team is coming at you with. The second is a good showing though, but still blunt force. Now the third is actually something to talk about. This is a solid piercing feat. However, just because he took a stab through the shoulder does not mean that he can shrug off a head shot from Cole, or several if he lands them (and he has the feats to land them here given that my team has the element of surprise in my opinion)

It allows him to match young Spidey in combat speed (here is the jungle senses again) and take the upper hand for a bit.

Spidey's a bullet timer, yeah? Even in his younger days I bet, just maybe not as casual as he is now. So, at best he can match Backlash or Grifter, who are both bullet timers, with Marc probably being closer, if not at Spider-Man's level there. And Backlash still hard counters thanks to misting, so he won't be matching Marc whatsoever and Grifter is fast enough to fight people who can deflect bullets in Coda warriars, so he shouldn't fare too bad either (you've already seen his massive pain tolerance above, so he can take a lick and keep on ticking) if Kraven somehow gets close, which is still unproven in my books. Marc, being my teams CQC specialist, is far more likely to be the one engaging and taking down Kraven

He can also blitz a group of gunmen.

So fodder then? Not comparable to my team. Moving on...

That's all for Kraven. As for Six Gun Gorilla, he is an ace shot with super strength, but he doesn't have too many feats so I will re-use this from my opener.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Blitzes horse riding bandits.
  • Throws a horse a few feet away, crushing a man.
  • Scan 2-3. Is unfazed by a full strength punch (this was back when he was younger)

Again, blitzing fodder doesn't equate to being able to blitz my team, when he can't see to top this off. Also, your last two scans are unreadable, I'm guessing whatever respect thread they're from didn't have bigger images. Although full strength punch from who? Hell, nothing you've posted doesn't suggest that Cole cannot simply headshot SGG if they face off.

How you Think The Battle Will Go

So basically HigorM plans to set up traps then ambush anyone who falls for it, as I said it won't work for me since I won't move from my posistion so falling into any traps is unlikely. However BlackestNight mentioned very little strategy and it is clear Winter Soldier can find his invisible team, because of this I think BlackestNight's team will fall for the traps first (he may not fall for them at all but he is more likely too) which would according to my understanding of HigoM's plan, will be when his team ambushes the enemy (who in this case is BlackestNight) however Backlash has misting so it wouldn't hurt him much so both your teams would be in good shape and fighting one another, meanwhile my team is just chilling back waiting for the victor (you can figure that you yourselves) to attack us (which regardless of who wins would give as an advantage, cause if you try to go near us we would detect you and attack you before you can enter the small spaces we are in).

I already countered Higorms traps. Their very nature and the size of the battlefield makes their going off around my team very unlikely to begin with. Wouldn't hinge your bets on that working out. And nothing you've posted confirms that you can 100% detect my team to begin with, much less beat them in a fight.

Now it may not happen exactly like this but the main point is, the most likely thing to happen is that HigoM and BlackesNight's team engages, even if BlackestNight's team does not move (thus not getting trapped) they would be in a less protected area as my team and would be better targets. I also believe neither one of you could stomp the other meaning if you battle you would lose members or at least get tired and hurt, not only that but my posistion is hard to get into and if you tried attacking me there I would have the advatage (think armies vs castle, the army loses numbers before they even get in).

Or, Higorms team goes after yours first? You never planned for that? Also, if you don't think my team can stomp his, then I have words for you lol. My team can destroy his. And I'd say his team can beat yours too if it came down to his team fighting yours. Also, both of my people are pretty well trained in infiltration, with Grifter regularly being sent on advance teams to sneak through a base, such as in Wildcats volume 1 issue 3 as one such example:

Wildcats vol 1 issue 3
Wildcats vol 1 issue 3

Hell, I could also cite Wildcats volume 1 issue 5, where Cole remarks that he and Zealot are always the first ones to go into places, but I shouldn't need to. Cole is very well versed in infiltration. As for Marc, I'll just cite Backlash issue 1 where in the opening panels, he is in mid infiltration of a base full of superhuman criminals

Backlash issue 1
Backlash issue 1

So yeah. My team should be able to get to yours if they really need to. They have the stealth feats to support this

Higorm

Invisibility doesn't work against Zealot given her senses, nor against Ninjak or Winter Soldier due to their gear (infra-red, scanners, etc) - I've given several examples of both being able to track enemies with all sort of equipment. So your team holds no advantage whatsoever.

Already raised my issues with Ninjak and Zealot in my last post, also, in case you try and say I'm posting something out of context with that Zealot scan (I cut off the scan because the rest of the page doesn't pertain to the point I was proving), I'll post the full page of the first scan, along with the next page to solely prove that I've read and own the issue that I cited:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Wildcats vol 1 issue 7

Bucky has a pretty bulletproof means of detection, however, this doesn't mean your whole team will know, considering you have no teamwork which means I don't see Bucky taking the time to explain how he found them, and even if he did, Zannah has no reason to trust him, neither does Ninjak. Your team won't infight, that's all you got teamwork-wise

Team chemistry isn't a factor for my team since they can all work together or solo and has done so in the past in several occassions, working as a team with different characters packing different sets of morals in favor of a common good.

But when your needing to share intel to find teams or whatnot, that's where having a good foundation of trust comes into play. Your team has no reason to trust each other, whereas mine has no reason not to. They know each other and have worked together multiple times. Your team....hasn't.

I believe you should've given a plan or basic strategy saying how you'd deal with my team since they are attacking you and laying traps around the map, which for me means they hold the initial advantage if you consider the tracking part.

Well, as I said, I didn't know what I was going against, barring Zealot. That said, you only ever detailed one actual surefire trap, which, due to it's very function, the odds are slim of it ever going off considering your scan states:

No Caption Provided

I'll repeat, the odds of this being effective are slim, considering it needs to be touched/moved in order to work. The only actual advantage your team holds is that you can track my team, that's it. This foam you're placing so much reliance on won't be as effective as you think. The map is too large in order for this to be super-effective. I'm not sure if the C-4 Daggers are meant to be another trap either, I didn't get the impression they were considering the scan you cited showed a combat use and not a stealth one

Even if all goes down, I can still use my perk to revive one of my team members.

Considering I saw nothing addressed to me about you changing your mind about sending Zealot off on her own, and considering how possible it is for her to be surprise attacked when she has to focus too much on something, I'd say this perk will be used on Zannah, since she's your best hope of taking down my team. And considering the perk details that you resurrect on the spot, my team can just take her down again once she gets back up. The downside of that perk is that you can't choose when your chosen person gets back up, or at least the perk wording seems to imply. Now, lets say you choose to use this perk for either Ninjak or Bucky. That's totally fine, and it won't help you win in a direct fight against my team & it'd be a waste of a perk if you ask me, but hey, always better to plan ahead as much as you can.

Conclusion/ Final thoughts

This was a good debate, and my opponents represented their characters very well. Fortunately for me, I still believe that I have the strongest team here, and while I don't have as detailed a plan layed out for my team as my opponents, the conditions of this match require a defeat of the opposing teams in order to secure a win. This is something I've believed I've proven with regards to my team.

Major Hellstorms team is holed up inside of a building and his only method of detecting my team hinges on WBN smelling them out, and this is unlikely given the multitude of scents he'd have to sort out, and that's if he gets the proper scent. The rest of his team is left blind, and my team has the feats to suggest that they can dismantle his through a combination of surprise, speed, and accuracy. Marc will particularly be a challenge for Hellstorms team giving his ability to render himself intangible with his misting, this lets him hard counter virtually everyone on his team, and with Grifter providing Deadshot level marksmenship as support, and given their very good teamwork, my team should go through his like a hot knife through butter. I've also provided feats that my team has the durability to survive what his team dishes out, even on the remote chance that they do get tagged. MH's lack of planning against a direct assault by my team, instead of assuming that my and Higorms teams will engage each others first further supports the idea of my team being able to take down his in direct combat

With Higorms team, the only thing that he's concretely proven is that Bucky has a foolproof method of detecting my team. However, his teams lack of teamwork would lead one to question why Bucky would share any of this intel with his team, nor if his team would even trust him in the first place. Furthermore, his reliance on Ninjaks foam in order to hinder/ take out my team is countered by the sheer size of the battlefield and the conditions in order to set off this foam, which his own scan lays out quite clear has to be disturned in order to detonate. Not once in either of his posts towards me has he actually planned for a direct method of combat against my team. If anything, he's sent his arguably best direct combatant in Zealot off on her own, where my team is afforded the opportunity to take her out at their leisure, and given their knowledge of her, and feats, they should be able to accomplish. And if his perk is used on her, there is nothing stopping them from taking her out again. With regards to the rest of team, there haven't been any feats posted at me to suggest that his team can stand up to my team for long.

I'm of the strong opinion that my team has the ability and the feats to take down either team with mid difficulty at the very worst. This was a very fun debate.

@higorm:

Counters & Conclusions

@major_hellstorm

Well not exactly. You have shown Zealot's skill and senses but not much on stealth (unless I missed it). As I said before though, my team has great senses (feats for WBN in the BlackestNight section), Kraven for example has excellent hearing being able to tag Otto through Mysterio's thick fog. Also, does Ninjak's invisibility make him super quiet as well? Since while I could see him sneaking around below us, I doubt he would remain completely invisible to us if he tries to get up close to attack.

You must have missed it because I've posted scans from WildC.A.T.S v3 #13 where Zealots ambushes and kills several Coda Warrios, which are basically a cult of hired assassins from Khera, therefore, they are all Kherubim just like Zealot (with enhanced stats and senses just not as trained/skilled), but the point here is the ambush, she manage to get behind one of them via stealth, by the time the Coda assassin notice her presence it was already too late as you can see here (pages 12-13).

You could argue that Kraven or WBN possess better feats and whatever but you also have to factor in the fact that there's another team on the map. Your example was using a feat from Kraven being able to tag Otto through a fog but that doesn't really translate to what my team is doing here. Your team doesn't have a clue about what they are facing, they don't have a solid reason to go tracking for my team in the first place, and even if they start with a generic track approach they will probably find the other team as they don't possess the same level of stealth my team is packing here.

Ninjak is a highly trained ninja with state of the art technology at his disposal, i've already presented several feats where he manage to infiltrate high-security bases and also get past enemies with super senses. Add the fact that from the start he send the mini-drones flying in the air to get intel of everyone and everything which means my team is aware of your position, which facilitates the stealth approach. Furthermore, Bucky is on the rearguard with his sniper ready to strike down anyone who might pose as a threat for his teammembers.

The team will attack in an ambush mode, when it's too late for your team to do anything.

Just one problem, my team does not move away from our posistion so we aren't stepping on any traps, and I doubt we would get into a vulnerable position or one where we could be ambused as the only way to get to our position is to climb the side of builder where you could easily be sensed or to use a door (assuming there is one) but that would create a bottle neck of sorts which would make it really hard for you to ambush us up close. And if you send Bucky to snipe us we would peobably spot him as there are no good sniping positions near us (I mean the nearest buildings you can snipe us on are ones you'd be easily spotted since there are really only two of them and they are really close to our positions) and our team is on high alert (both groups).

If you read my strategy you'll see that I've covered that as well. The traps works as a decoy move too. Even if your team doesn't get near them, the traps will go off the same way to draw attention, there's no way your team can remain indifferent to them, they can't turn off their senses so that's why I say my team will be able to make a stealth approach yours without being noticed. As for the sniper position, Bucky is one of the best in this regard, he will find a good spot, even if he doesn't find one from where he stands, he can still use Ninjak's drones who all possess panoramic view to find the best place to be. Not to mention that your team will be busy with other enemies and my own team so I doubt you can do anything to him, especially from a good distance.

That isn't that big of an advantage as I have explained how taking us down by suprise would be a hard thing to do.

I disagree, but will let the voters decide it since I've already explained my point with details.

Do all of you have gear against poison (gas or darts) & fire attacks?

First you'd have to tag my team in order to the attack be anything relevant in this fight, you didn't explained how you'd do that, and even if you manage to, Ninjak's suit is fireproof, his mask possess gas filters (he himself uses a knockout gas as a weapon) and even if by a miracle Kraven manage to strike him with a poison dart, Ninjak's monk training allowed him to ignore and use his own body to expell toxins, something called "Body Supremacy", check here..

My team will be gathered into two groups within eyes reach of one another, you won't be able to take us out one at a time, also we are packed into a tight space and like I said we are in high alert with few ways to get to us.

Of course we can, we have 3 members, you have several weak links in your team, like Zuko and the Gorilla who can pretty much be one shotted by either of my team members, the other two will go down eventually.

How does your team know we're bad guys? Don't remeber seeing anything about basic knowledge and we can't exactly act like villains in a death match. Only one you'd probably know is a villain is Kraven thanks to Bucky.

That doesn't matter, Zealot for example was ready to kill Captain Atom even though she knew he wasn't a villain. Same goes for the rest of the team, they don't care about killing if that's what they have to do to win.

As for your so called "Team's Main Edge", I honestly don't see how that helps you here, my team won't use blunt force or raw strength to take yours down, Zealot packs a blade capable of cutting through anything, so WBN durability is irrelevant, she can kill him or anyone of your team with a single blow. Bucky can blow his head off with a sniper shot and Ninjak has probably 10+ different ways of putting him down. Zuko packs a decent firepower but he's still a human in the end of the day. I hardly believe he'd be able to tag my team since they are are all very skilled and one step ahead of you thanks to Ninjak's scanners. In addition, you didn't presented a solid strategy showing how you'd use him which makes believe my strategy is far more convincing and likely to happen than yours.

Kraven's poison attacks are useless against my team as already explained, for once he can't even tag or see Bucky from distance, and isn't fast enough to tag Zealot, his feats against Spider-man involves prep for the most part and in other cases he was fighting a young spiderman, not to mention that Zealot possess a whole different mindset, isn't the typical hero who holds back, possess superhuman stats and senses and is packing a sword that can cut through anything.

You clearly have the weaker team among us and you decided to wait and see what happens, so they will get rekt by whoever meets them first. Since my team is one step ahead of both teams and from blackestnight93 statements, I'm sure that my team will let his team strike yours and take you out one by one, so once your team is neutralized, we can make the ambush on what's left, probably a tired Grifter and an almost a 100% Backlash..

Either way your team goes down first.

@blackestnight93

After reading through the scans you've posted here, the only issue I have is scan with the drones. As we can see, he had to actually tell them what to scan for in order to locate who I assume is XO Manwar, or at least the guy who he is talking to (I presume he's human). Now, while I have no doubt that he could use this method to find Grifter, seeing as he is human, I have to ask since I'm unfamiliar with Ninjak and his tech, do these orbs allow him to find aliens as well? Considering Marc is only half human, his other half being Kheribum, I have to question if this method would allow Ninjak to locate Slayton as well. I'll wait to hear more from you on this. Either way, your orbs only allow you to find Cole and only Cole for sure, unless I'm shown otherwise. Ninjaks other tech by itself should prove useless against my team given their invisibility.

Yes he needs to tell them but he can also program those mini-drones to find what he wants (like in the scan where he told the drones to also look for any presence of metal), so human or not, and since you asked, XO-Manowar armor is alien based so that's one of the reasons he manage to locate him in the first place. Aside from that and as already explained, Ninjak possess several other ways to locate your team, your invisibility is very basic, check your perk again:

Stealth Ops - Its night, no moon, and your team is packing HVGs, and stealth camo suits like Predator wears.

That's virtual invisibility, it's only invisible for the naked and untrained eye. Your team can still be heard through audio scanners, in addition he packs special lenses that allows him to see in the infrared spectrum, just like the Predators can see, so your camo suits are useless here. Your team will enter the battlefield trusting they will be unnoticed but that's what will lead them to defeat. Not to mention that his sensors also give him detailed info about the enemy.

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I have to ask why Bucky would cover Ninjak at all? They don't know each other, after all, they have no teamwork history, none of your team does. Now Zealot potentially going off on her own makes for some interesting possibilities for my team to take her down, given that both have very good knowledge on Zannah herself, Cole being her former lover and long time teammate, Marc having fought her twice, and served on Wildcore together, even splitting leadership for a time, so they'd be able to pull it off together. Marc could honestly do it very easily

Hmm, maybe because they are a team? Unless you think he is a dumb character who prefers to kill or let his own teammate be killed instead of working together to beat the real enemy. They don't have to be best friends but just work as a team to overcome a commom threat, which is basic stuff. Bucky went as far as infiltrating Dr. Doom's base to ask for help for example.

As for Zealot facing both Cole and Marc, I highly doubt it would happen for 2 main reasons:

  1. My team can track your team from distance which means they know your steps and everything you do in the map. It's a real time monitoring, so that's why Zealot won't end up facing two enemies alone.
  2. You didn't presented a solid strategy like I did, you only brought basic stuff and then proceeded to make counters to what I've planned in the first post. Aside from that, your perk is useless since it won't work as you expect and you don't have a plan B which means your whole strategy is huge fail.

My team can pretty much control the pace of this battle since they hold the advantage from the start.

I have to ask how Ninjak is even going to be able to navigate his way around the battlefield, unless he relies heavily on these drones to map out the battlefield, given the effects of my perk. Nothing else you've posted shows that he has thermal vision, although I have a sneaking suspicion that he does, given the whole "swiss army knife" label you've given him, so lets proceed as if he does. Your "virtual invisibility" is hard-countered by my teams possessing HVG's due to the perk I've chosen

He will obviously move swiftly in stealth mode being guided by the drones. The very first scan posted in my oppening strategy shows Ninjak using infra-red vision through his lenses, I thought it was very clear when he says "scanning all frequencies". You may have ways to locate my team but only if you look directly at them. Your team doesn't have enhanced senses as far as I'm concerned so you'd have track them first or somehow look to the right direction which is honetsly very unlikely since my team is tracking yours first. They will know not only your position but also the kind of gear you are using.

I bloody knew he had a way to see invisible enemies... everything else there is par for the course from what I expect.

That's why I chose him to create this unique team ;)

All things I already know. Hence why I consider her possibly the most dangerous person on your team in a direct fight. Although it being pitch black makes her enhanced sight irrelevant, and it's not like she can't be taken by surprise, with the odds of it increasing here due to the nature of the enviroment. As we can see in the following scan, when Zealot is very focused on things (like she'd naturally be here, trying to navigate her way around a pitch black battleground), she can be taken by surprise:

It's not only sight it involves hearing too, and she's further backed up by Ninjak's multiple scanners. So I don't see it happening in the same way you discribed, from the scan it was clear she was focused on another person right in front of her, that's why she was caught off guard. Your team can't replicate that here since Zealot is focused on finding and fighting the enemy, she's not distracted, and mainly because she already know about your presence in advance so there's no way you can successfully make a surprise attack.

Another good feat for her, Kinda surprised you didn't use the feat from Wildcats volume 2, IIRC, she takes on bigger numbers of Coda and still wins (somewhere around 20 I believe) and they had the element of surprise to boot IIRC. Although.... I don't think I'd consider the throwing blades standard gear for her, I can't really remember her using them that much, even if she is packing them here. I don't see them coming into play at all.

That feat is enough to prove my point. I consider standard since she used them on different occasions being from different writers. It's not a go to weapon but something she possess at her disposal ready to use if necessary, like to disarm the enemy or as a way to strike from distance, which are both ways she used before in a combat situation.

Something to touch on, with your C4 daggers, he actually had to stab his target in order for it to be effective... something that he won't be doing to my team...like, at all. Also, how is this foam going to be effective? From your own scan "Detonates when touched or moved" This battlefield is massive, it's essentially a small town sure. I'd say the odds of my team encountering any of this foam, much less detonating it, is small, if not non-existent, they could even walk right by it sure and not set it off. I highly question this tactic in it's effectiveness.

I believe you didn't gave a proper read to my stratey, I said this:

"Even if they don't get close, the traps will be used to draw their attention while the team is moving into a different direction."

  • Summary: The team (through Ninjak) will leave traps around the map, ready to detonate once the enemy gets close. It also works as a decoy move.

My team will detonate those traps from distance if your team gets near them, you don't need to step into it to work, just be close enough. And the explosions are big enough to rip your team apart as they did to a Armor Hunter beast.

The only trap you've detailed out is this foam (unless the daggers are meant to be as well?), and I've already questioned why this should be expected to work on my team. Kind of hinging your bets on something unreliable if you ask me. If my team encounters yours, it should end in a short fought victory for my team. Grifter should be able to hold off Winter Soldier in a gunfight at minimum, possibly even Ninjak as well, but that'd be tougher, but not out of the question, given this showing:

I'd say taking down multiple Coda alongside Zannah in nothing but his boxers should support that pretty well. Zannah trained him good.

Yes, it's the foam + c4 daggers and I've already covered those. Funny you talk about hinging bets on something unreliable when you focused your flimsy strategy on a perk that is useless against my team. In addition, you seem to completely disregard what I've presented in my strategy since Winter Soldier isn't running through the battlefield he's giving backup to the team from distance. Also, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in those scans since he wasn't fighting alone but with a high caliber warrior so he did ok at best, which is not enough to put him above any of my team members, who in my opinion possess better feats in this particular department.

Now, if Zannah went out on her own, and has encountered Marc and Cole, she wouldn't even need to be dealt with once my team encounters your last remaining members, considering she'd be down & out somewhere else. Ninjak and Bucky alone aren't taking down my team, not a snowballs chance in hell. Even if Zannah doesn't go out on her own (which, in all honesty, she would, see Wildcats vol 1 issue 7 where she splits off from her team when the Cats start fighting a mind-controlled Cyberforce) then my team should still take down yours.

I've already covered this possibility so I won't repeat myself. I'll just say that aside from what I've already presented and the way this fight is going, my team will let yours engage the other team first and then strike your team according to our main strategy that should work just fine considering you didn't presented a solid strategy of your own let alone a plan B if things go to shi!t.

Honestly, the only thing you've proven is that your team can find mine, nothing you've shown proves that you can actually beat my team if it comes to a fight, and you've presented a possibility that allows my team to win against yours easier.

That' why my team is all about using their best resources against the enemy instead of going into a straight up confrontation. Also considering that there's another team in the mix makes things interesting for my team who can control the pace of this battle from the start.

Bottom Line

I'm the only one with a real strategy here, displayed from the beginning instead of just working my arguments after seeing the enemy strategy, which was the case of my opponents. Even if we consider the other strategies and cross them with mine it's clear that my team holds the advantage from the start, being able to find the enemy from distance and keep track of them at all times and acting accordingly during the fight, a team composed of masters of stealth with high-tech scanners that includes drones and special lenses capable of giving detailed info about them. From their strategy alone is highly possible that they face each other first without my team's interference, with my team wanting it to happen I'm 100% sure they will fight each other while my team get's ready to deliver a sudden attack from which they won't be able to avoid or properly react to, leading them to defeat.

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#63  Edited By SirFizzWhizz
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#64  Edited By Major_Hellstrom

Bump for votes.

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#66 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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@blackestnight93: Takes my vote, had the absolutely strongest counters, and the other teams didn't use their full rosters nearly as effectively and their strategies weren't as well laid out IMO

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@deathhero61: True, but the PM thing and only having 3 posts kinda hindered my counters and strategy.

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@blackestnight93: Takes my vote, had the absolutely strongest counters, and the other teams didn't use their full rosters nearly as effectively and their strategies weren't as well laid out IMO

Yeah ill go with this.

@major_hellstorm I wish you had used you're roster to the full potential, i think you probably could have won.

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@jardinain2: Yeah. But hopefully I can do better in SFW's current Ult. Street tourney.

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@major_hellstorm: Best of luck then. (whats with the "PM me you're stuff so i can post them" stuff?

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@jardinain2: I dunno, it is good for openers but for a short 3 post match it is hard to do against characters you do not know about. HigorM and BlackestNight did well though.

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#75  Edited By Vertigo-

friendly bump for votes

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Voting for higorm. In the end he is the only one with a real palpable strategy. BN did well to present feats and perks, but in the end, presented no real strategy instead choosing to say "my team stomps" a lot. And that is after he, himself has shown zealot beating his character in armed combat.

MH, probably had the best idea overall, but forgot to make a winning condition for himself. Holing up and letting others fight to death is a great idea (loved how he sacrificed the fodder to get intel) but it simply seemed like he forgot how to pull a win.

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#77  Edited By Vertigo-
@chimeroid said:

Voting for higorm. In the end he is the only one with a real palpable strategy. BN did well to present feats and perks, but in the end, presented no real strategy instead choosing to say "my team stomps" a lot. And that is after he, himself has shown zealot beating his character in armed combat.

Not to nitpick, but the only area I showed Zealot beating Backlash was in blade combat and I even said this was to be expected. I also stressed the fact that Backlash would be using his whips & misting in this fight which he never did in either of his fights with Zealot, and I also pointed out that Backlash has beaten Zealot twice in h2h.... I'm just wondering why you're choosing to focus on my one showing of Zealot beating Marc in an area where she is superior, and in a way that really has no bearing on how they'd fight here. Not trying to get you to change your vote, I'm just wanting to understand your thought process really

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@blackestnight93: The Zealot fight was ultimately irrelevant, it was simply a nitpick. You really did forget to represent the path to victory for your team. You did well to convey the advantages of bringing powerhouses into a PYP type battle, but you ultimately didn't really choose a strategy to win this fight. And since intangibility attacks were banned for this battle you really should have designed the specifics.

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#79  Edited By Vertigo-

@chimeroid: okay. Thanks for reading through & voting, as well as the feedback

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bump 4 votes

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#83 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@major_hellstorm: @higorm: @blackestnight93: Yeah my vote would have to go to Higorm.

Higorm was simply the only with an actual strategy in this fight and who gave solid reasons for why his team would win. Major had a strategy but didn't really ever get into how he planned on winning while Blackestnight seemed to have no strategy at all here. Higorm made use of his characters, and their gear especially. Giving reasons on how they would be able to use stealth attacks and traps to take out their opponents. And his strategy was never properly countered by either of his opponents. BN on a couple of occasions just brought up teamwork as a counter but you do not need to be best friends to work together, it's not like these characters have a reason to distrust each other. While Major stuck to a hiding in one place plan which is a good strategy to start with but you need to go a step further than just outlasting opponents.

Overall Higorm was the only with an actual strategy to win. And he was able to counter or rebut any attempts on proving why it wouldn't work. BN did do well on most of his counters though and he did provide evidence on why his character were superior, he just needed a strategy on how they would win. While Major was the weakest here deabting wise and he didn't really give any reasons for his team winning.

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@emperorthanos: Thanks for the vote. But I did give reasons on why my team would win.

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#86  Edited By HigorM

@lukehero said:

Hmmm

come on, we need that beautiful detailed vote here ;P

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#88 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@emperorthanos: Thanks for the vote. But I did give reasons on why my team would win.

You did argue why they were stronger. But tt wasn't really part of your strategy. Atleast from what I read.

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bump

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@higorm: Not sure why you tagged me but this is pretty interesting. I will vote tomorrow.

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#91  Edited By Major_Hellstrom

@emperorthanos: My only strategy was to outlast them and pick on the winner's weakened bones.

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HigorM

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@higorm: Not sure why you tagged me but this is pretty interesting. I will vote tomorrow.

I tagged you because you are a valued member of this rich community so I'd like to hear what you have to say about this humble debate :P

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@higorm: I appreciate that a lot mate. Again, I will read this. It's nice to meet a fellow Bucky fan.

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@krleavenger: oh nice, I wasn't aware that you were also a Bucky fan..

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@higorm: @major_hellstorm: @blackestnight93:

Alright I read and I'm ready to vote. This was an intense 3 way battle. For the most part it was Higorm vs Blackestnight93(Sorry Major Hellstorm). I think you just ended up getting the short end of the stick here. These two controlled the pace of the arguments and were a bit more assertive. There was even a point where you agreed your fodder was useless. Fodder is there to get stomped, but they still serve a purpose which you could have conveyed in my humble opinion. This was a major misstep on your part. Fodder still can be used to buy your main characters time to react even if it's a few secs, time is always important. Also they can be used to flush out the enemy from hiding and give away their location.

=================================

I believe Higorm's bottom line post sealed it for me and the ideas he presented to fulfill these. I disagree a tad bit as I believe Major Hellstorm made it clear what his team was going to do before hand(as in holed up in sniper positions and wait). Not a very proactive strategy mind you, but he still had one to be fair.

Bottom Line

I'm the only one with a real strategy here, displayed from the beginning instead of just working my arguments after seeing the enemy strategy, which was the case of my opponents. Even if we consider the other strategies and cross them with mine it's clear that my team holds the advantage from the start, being able to find the enemy from distance and keep track of them at all times and acting accordingly during the fight, a team composed of masters of stealth with high-tech scanners that includes drones and special lenses capable of giving detailed info about them. From their strategy alone is highly possible that they face each other first without my team's interference, with my team wanting it to happen I'm 100% sure they will fight each other while my team get's ready to deliver a sudden attack from which they won't be able to avoid or properly react to, leading them to defeat.

I think the mistake Blackestnight made is he knew he had the superior character in Backlash and he knew Backlash was capable of defeating Higorm's most powerful character in Zealot. I think he became way too over-reliant on the fact that Backlash was so powerful. But, he really didn't put together a good sequence of describing how he would find the enemy teams and then take them down. He just kept repeating himself in the aspect that should they meant, due to the fact his character is more powerful, he should stomp. Also I had a BIG Problem with Blackestnight when it came to the issue of teamwork? Why wouldn't Higorm's team work together? Just because they don't know each other? That doesn't seem very logical people work together all of the time without really knowing their coworkers at all really...

Hmm, maybe because they are a team? Unless you think he is a dumb character who prefers to kill or let his own teammate be killed instead of working together to beat the real enemy.

So in the end I feel Higorm made the best arguments. At first TBH I was gonna vote against him. Because yes Backlash is very powerful and I was actually scared I was being a Higorm homer, but I thought about it and read through again and I noticed Blackestnight lacked a full tactical strategy and didn't flesh it out very well for me IMO. Also his consent harping on Higorm's supposed lack of teamwork really did bother me.

Vote for Higorm.

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@lukehero: Thanks for the vote. But I think I did mention the fodder team's purpose IIRC.

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@major_hellstorm: You mentioned that you were going to use them to spot the enemy. Later on down the line, you yourself called them "useless"...

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@major_hellstorm:

and none of your snipers come equipped with any form of thermal vision, your snipers are totally useless, as well as the majority of your team, considering I saw nothing about your team packing any sort of thermal vision equipment, so my team can practically dance their way past yours and you'd never know anything about it.

My fodder may be uselessbut not my entire team, as I have said Kraven can see in the dark, WBN can sense things in the dark and Zuko can light up the dark (not useful against you team but it helps against HigorM's). Also WBN has infared and ultraviolet vision which correct me if I am wrong is thermal vision.

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You were basically agreeing here that your fodder here had no real solid purpose...