Ultimate Jean Grey vs Emma Frost (616)

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#51 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992:

finally seeing some feats for ultimate Jean! thanks for the scans, it's been so long since I read ultimate x-men. Although correct me if i'm wrong, but the phoenix being a part of her own power evolving was a hoax and it is still a god/cosmic entity in the ultimate universe. in which case, everything you posted aside from the Karen scans and the 616 teen jean scans were Phoenix amped Jean (pls correct me if wrong) so I suppose not applicable to standard ultimate Jean.

This is... complicated. First time we seen Phoenix, it was said it was a part of her psyche. Others like the Shiar cult said she was a god in a little girl body. Neither side was EVER proven wrong and sadly it was never stated who was right and not right. All we know she had the Phoenix powers and never seemed to lost them. Not once did the Phoenix left her and her powers as "Karen" were as impressive as any Pheonix showing outside the city TK manipulation and bringing back the dead. So... its hard to say. No one in this world can show a single feat of Phoenix removed or leaving her. So whether its a different entity (Heavily to be the truth as seen when Frankilin stole the powers for himself) or just her power with another personality, cant say for 100% sure.

Also the scan you posted of ultimate Jean being equal to 616 Jean, yeah that's teen Jean who is really not comparable to adult 616 Jean and who is also way below Emma, so that doesn't help your case. Also later on they say in that arc that 616 teen jean is more powerful than ultimate jean, so again I would not use her comparison to 616 teen jean to make a case ultimate jean.

This is kinda true and kinda false... its complicated too with my knowledge on the subject. Young Jean has better feats of TP and looser morals than her adult self has in current issues. In fact its been stated in sources, I have to re find from past debates, that state she is better as Young Jean now than what she grew into. Though I have to re find those quotes from other debates. Here is one of the debates I read where Teen Jean was owning a non depowered Emma.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/teen-jean-vs-stepford-cuckoos-3-in-1-1874971/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/emma-frost-vs-jean-grey-1689041/

Many blame Bendis for the character power levels, but it happen. Teen Jean is a insane powerful telepath with some damn good feats. Ultimate Jean has very little in feats really, and only shines when tapping Phoenix Force in her. Her feats are just better than Emma in high ends with what I posted and matching the raw power of Omega Jean with her non Phoneix mode is proof of Ultimate Jean in relation as far as my comparison goes.

The Karen scans are great though. What issue did this happen in? Would love to check it out.

I could not give you the issues off the top of my head sadly. All my comics are locked up in storage and I have no way outside Readcomiconline to find those issues. Its all pst United We Stand but before Galactus shows up for time frame wise. Kinda crappy X-men run to be honest.

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#52 Edited by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster said:

@marvelfan1992:

This is... complicated. First time we seen Phoenix, it was said it was a part of her psyche. Others like the Shiar cult said she was a god in a little girl body. Neither side was EVER proven wrong and sadly it was never stated who was right and not right. All we know she had the Phoenix powers and never seemed to lost them. Not once did the Phoenix left her and her powers as "Karen" were as impressive as any Pheonix showing outside the city TK manipulation and bringing back the dead. So... its hard to say. No one in this world can show a single feat of Phoenix removed or leaving her. So whether its a different entity (Heavily to be the truth as seen when Frankilin stole the powers for himself) or just her power with another personality, cant say for 100% sure.

Hmm it was my understanding that it was indeed a cosmic entity because it spoke to the Shi'ar people when it initially awoke right? The entire point of that arc, to my recollection, was them having Jean believe she was going crazy when in fact they were lying in order to be able to manipulate her and the phoenix. The issue dealing with her journey in space stated different races from different planets across the cosmos were waging war and committing suicide in the Phoenix's name, backing the beliefs of the hellfire club. All this points to the phoenix being an ancient force that's known throughout the galaxy. I really haven't seen her much as Karen so i will hold my judgement on that until i've gone over the books that have her.

This is kinda true and kinda false... its complicated too with my knowledge on the subject. Young Jean has better feats of TP and looser morals than her adult self has in current issues. In fact its been stated in sources, I have to re find from past debates, that state she is better as Young Jean now than what she grew into. Though I have to re find those quotes from other debates. Here is one of the debates I read where Teen Jean was owning a non depowered Emma.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/teen-jean-vs-stepford-cuckoos-3-in-1-1874971/

Jeen (teen Jean) is definitely a lot more powerful than original jean was at that point in her teenage years, but she's not on adult Jean's level. It's been mentioned a couple of times that she is not comparable to adult Jean. Jeen even said it like twice or thrice herself. The phoenix didn't even want her in the Jean Grey solo series, it only wanted Jean. here's an example off the top of my head about Jeen not being on adult Jean's level

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I think you may have gotten confused by beast's statement that Jeen showed TK on the level she only previously did while phoenix amped, but that's actually not the case.

She disassembled the motorcycle, just the same way she disassembled a gun back in her OG marvel girl days.

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Also Jeen doesn't have better TP feats than adult Jean. You can look through our Jean Grey Respect Thread for reference. Jeen is definitely more comparable to Jean in the TK department, but when it comes to TP, not so much.

Many blame Bendis for the character power levels, but it happen. Teen Jean is a insane powerful telepath with some damn good feats. Ultimate Jean has very little in feats really, and only shines when tapping Phoenix Force in her. Her feats are just better than Emma in high ends with what I posted and matching the raw power of Omega Jean with her non Phoneix mode is proof of Ultimate Jean in relation as far as my comparison goes.

I think the main issue people had with Jeen was the pink psi-form Bendis introduced. Compared to her original portrayal at that age, DEFINITELY super impressive (girl could not even fly back then), but when compared to the other telepaths, she's mid-tier, which is nothing to scoff at.

I could not give you the issues off the top of my head sadly. All my comics are locked up in storage and I have no way outside Readcomiconline to find those issues. Its all pst United We Stand but before Galactus shows up for time frame wise. Kinda crappy X-men run to be honest.

What comic title/series do i find this in? I only really read up to ultimatum. After that it was just glancing at pages at best lol. But i'm pretty excited to see take a closer look at Karen

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#53 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: Here we go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Comics:_X-Men

This is all Karen and on. Although she changes her name back to Jean halfway through. But everything post Ultimatum is here. She changes her name to Karen and we really never here of Phoenix Force ever again even though she never lost it and had it still clearly before Ultimatum. So its like writers just stop advertising it. It was weird. I am missing out on the last dozen issues though so maybe they clear that up there.... doubt it.

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#54 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: Here we go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Comics:_X-Men

This is all Karen and on. Although she changes her name back to Jean halfway through. But everything post Ultimatum is here. She changes her name to Karen and we really never here of Phoenix Force ever again even though she never lost it and had it still clearly before Ultimatum. So its like writers just stop advertising it. It was weird. I am missing out on the last dozen issues though so maybe they clear that up there.... doubt it.

cool thanks!

Well from when she said she no longer is the phoenix, it seemed as if the entity left her. The dialogue of not being worthy and wasted it's power point to there being an actual entity that gave her power IMO

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#55 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: Im not sure where she said she is no longer phoenix. I think I would remember that. I remember she hinted/claim she could not resurrect the dead anymore after the Apocalypse ordeal,

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but she still had Phoenix powers and Phoenix look.

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Where did she say she no longer had Phoenix? She stated clearly after the Apoc fight to have the power still.

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#56 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (3340 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Ultimate Jean doesn’t have the feats to beat 616 Emma and I’m not being bias, I actually looked and there was nothing too impressive at all for jeans Ultimate counterpart

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#57 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18706 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Just letting you know the young O5 version of Jean Grey is a weaker telepath than Emma, and legit had her TP turned off by her. And they weren’t equals, as Ultimate Jean admits.

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Not trying to argue though, I just wanted to get a better indication on Ultimate Jean’s power in relation to 616 telepaths.

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#58 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: Im not sure where she said she is no longer phoenix. I think I would remember that. I remember she hinted/claim she could not resurrect the dead anymore after the Apocalypse ordeal,

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but she still had Phoenix powers and Phoenix look.

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Where did she say she no longer had Phoenix? She stated clearly after the Apoc fight to have the power still.

she said it in Ultimatum : X-Men Requiem which was the aftermath of the Ultimatum event. (each ultimate title got Requiem issue to deal with the aftermaths of the events)

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#59 Posted by del_torro (3853 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah...

Ultimate Jean with the Phoenix is uber powerful, but without it she has been stated to be less powerful than teen Jean who is weaker than Rachel/Xavier jnr. People that Emma frost can stomp.

Though, I believe she would be able to replicate everything she did before the apocalypse fight as Karen grant. She wasn't fully tapping into the Phoenix before that.

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#60 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

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#61 Edited by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro said:

Yeah...

Ultimate Jean with the Phoenix is uber powerful, but without it she has been stated to be less powerful than teen Jean who is weaker than Rachel/Xavier jnr. People that Emma frost can stomp.

Though, I believe she would be able to replicate everything she did before the apocalypse fight as Karen grant. She wasn't fully tapping into the Phoenix before that.

Emma can't stomp Rachel. At the rate you're going, @koays will have created 7 different plans to eliminate you

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#62 Posted by Koays (11731 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: But hes using a miniskirt defense! @Del-torro is playing this game on high levels!

Seriously though, Ultimate Jean's Karen Grant feat of global projection is arguably her best feat in TP. Which is ROFL sh*tstomped by Emma's Death of X feat. No matter how you view the Cuckoos power levels, projecting a Psi construct of Cyclops while sending his image around the world and into the minds of even telepathy resistant people is just above her.

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#63 Posted by del_torro (3853 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Rachel could never really make the mini skirt work for her

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#64 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Rachel could never really make the mini skirt work for her

she was decent in the 90's Jean outfit tho

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#65 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Are you talking about the one where she blasts emma and shows her an illusion while she’s in daimond form? She was depowered then.

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#66 Posted by Koays (11731 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: pfft please. Rachel caught a city in a mini skirt. Jean just walked around looking doofy with her big eye mask.

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#67 Posted by del_torro (3853 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: kek, mini skirt Jean one shot the Hulk and sent Mesmero running. Unlike a certain Greyhound

@elpendejo:being depowered didn't affect Emmas diamond Form tho

@marvelfan1992: yeah she looks good.

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#68 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: That I don’t have the answer for. In fact her daimond forms always sporadic with its defense. Sometimes it can protect from telepaths stronger than her and sometimes it. Sometimes it can tank high level strength, and sometimes it can be cut by vibranium. Her daimond form is so unreliable to be honest

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#69 Posted by Koays (11731 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: Sorry, were you talking? I can't here you over the sound of a Greyhound in a miniskirt opening a Blackhole...

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#71 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking said:

@tourneymaster: Just letting you know the young O5 version of Jean Grey is a weaker telepath than Emma, and legit had her TP turned off by her. And they weren’t equals, as Ultimate Jean admits.

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Not trying to argue though, I just wanted to get a better indication on Ultimate Jean’s power in relation to 616 telepaths.

Ok, so you argue 616 Jean has more power a nd potential to normal non phoenix 1610 Jean. That fair enough, 1610 is more powerful as her phoenix self which manifest sporadicaly in the last few X Comics. Ultimate Jean was Ultimate Pheonix for more than 100 comics vs the 40 comics she was not Phoenix, so arguing her as Normal Jean is pointless IMO. More so when she can tap into the Phoenix as shown in the last few comics. Again LOOK AT THE FEATS than just one time statements.

Show me Emma pulling feats like these off. Then we can COMPARE how they match up as telepaths.

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Jean from across the world, mind controls a army to attack Utopia which itself is a Omega Level Telepath of the highest order, yet Jean by pass its defenses enough to wage war with a army across the world.

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Here jean not once, but twice shut down or by pass Wolverine mental resistance.

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Wolverine stated to be the perfect Assasin for Xavier due to Xavier being unable to read Logan's thoughts.

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Kurts mental training can resist SHIELD telepaths for days. Even then, Fury states Kurt is not Logan.

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This mutant can control the mind of any man. It even worked on Thor and Thor has incredible mental resistance feats. Yet Wolverine was totally unaffected.

Wolverine is stated flat out immune to psykers thanks to Weapon X, and shows this time and time again.

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Here Jean is again using her power to control Hulk and hold back the multiple world level Omega Telepaths of Xian including Xorn and Zorn.

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Hulk evolves to the Leaders mental powers.

In Hulks case Hulk is also Evolved to be mentally immune to most, including Xavier who tried and failed to help him.

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After Hulking out and further adapting, Jean states she is unable to restrain Hulk at all now, and even the second Omega telepath Xorn stated instead of dominating Hulk, just let him calm down. Both telepaths could not contain Hulk, but had to find a unique way to deal with it though "Karen Grant" jean was controlling Hulk while blocking other Omega Telepaths fine for a lengthy time till the strain was too much against Evolving Hulk.

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Xorn himself whose total power is relative to a mini back hole in energy levels and psy power.

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In this feat Jean telepathically from Asia manipulated and stoke America as well the Utopisa Mutants into war with eachother. Not only this, she did the feat in spite of semi decent Telepath Psylock and Omega Telepath Sentient Seed psy defenses.

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In this INSANE feat of TP, we have 3 scans of events happening at the same time. Scan 1 has Jean telepathically projecting her self in a ship rescue with her X-Men, though she is not there, yet she is stated projecting she is there for the whole world to see on cameras and TVs. Scan 2 has her at the same time visiting SHIELD and Fury while projecting this image to the world, and Fury had TP defenses up at the time. Scan 3 shows Jean fooled both the world and SHIELD as she was mentally projecting in both areas. She was in reality back in Asia with Omega Psychic Xorn, whom Jean was mentally shielding her thoughts from while mentally affecting the world in Scan 1 and by passing TP shields of Scan 2 at the same time evading the mental probes of Xorn!

I posted all this before but this feat really is a feat of multitasking, range, quantity if minds affected, and against several Omega Level Telepaths/Psy Defenses of SHIELD at the same time.

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Has Emma ever done anything on this level? That is 616 Galactus merged and made stronger with 1610 Gah Lak Tus. Jean is poking in his head with Cerebro fine before Galactus could een notice for easy minuet time frame. This is unprecedented.

I also showed other feats like mind wiping cities and the world, though there is arguments if she can do this as Phoenix. Well she was still Phoenix in the last comics.

@marvelfan1992: she did not lose Phoenix though. Read my scans and yours, she stated she cannot bring people back from death after Warren yes? My scans are also post Warren first Death. So how do you rectify her statement then? She is cleary unable to bring the dead back which she admits yet her TP, ability to freeze time, ability to scan the universe, and ability to TP the world including several stated Omega Telepaths same time is all post Warrens first death.

Though if we admit for this fight that Emma at her best can only beat a possible depoweer Ultimate Jean, then that admits Emma is inferior to Ultimate Jean whose 90 percent of.comics was with Phoenix. So its a win either way. However lucky for me we see Jean in last 5 X men comics having Pheonix Force still and manifesting it though she held back a lot in the fight against Utopia it seems.

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@marvelfan1992: So as seen, these are the scans of the last five X-men comic before Secrete Wars. How she lost Phoenix? She clearly shows it 3 times here though it only activates when she is truly enraged it seems.

While I will admit Jean is inferior without Phoenix, with it she is superior by high end feats and thats just arguing Telepathy. If we take into account her atomic level TK and other powers, she stomps Emma easy, who can only possibly semi compete in telepathy.

Thats my point.

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#72 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Are you talking about the one where she blasts emma and shows her an illusion while she’s in daimond form? She was depowered then.

From what I read in the argument she was not depowered via Cuukoos, her skill in telepathy was intact anyway, and her Diamond form was immune to telepathy regardless of her TP working or not. Teen jean had a good showing and people seem to want to dismiss it from what I gather, so I side with Teen Jean in that regard.

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#73 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: She wasn’t being powered by the cuckoos in that instance. Emma was affected with telepathy in daimond form, so I agree that Jeens more powerful. But in a real telepathic battle where Emma is fully powered even with only the cuckoos for a battery, Emma wins.

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#74 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: She wasn’t being powered by the cuckoos in that instance. Emma was affected with telepathy in daimond form, so I agree that Jeens more powerful. But in a real telepathic battle where Emma is fully powered even with only the cuckoos for a battery, Emma wins.

Well I agree with Emma winning due to skill, like vs Rachel, though Jean is more powerful. I also feel Ultimate Jean has skill and power backed by Pheonix. Its too much.

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#75 Edited by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: well vs the scan you initially posted, mine happens later on and she says she's not the phoenix anymore, so that trumps it. But her manifesting the PF towards the end of the utopia stuff does show that she still has it. Anyway, as I said in initial post, with the PF she wins in TP.

Do all of Jean's/Karen Grant's good feats happen in ultimate comics ; x-men or are there some important ones that are scattered throughout the other ultimate titles?

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#76 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Is anyone saying that Emma can beat Phoenix ultimate Jean? Because that is far too much power for Emma to handle.

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#77 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Is anyone saying that Emma can beat Phoenix ultimate Jean? Because that is far too much power for Emma to handle.

I thought that was what people were arguing? As beating non phoenix Jean is not much a argument. I thought people were debating against Phoenix Jean.

@tourneymaster: well vs the scan you initially posted, mine happens later on and she says she's not the phoenix anymore, so that trumps it. But her manifesting the PF towards the end of the utopia stuff does show that she still has it. Anyway, as I said in initial post, with the PF she wins in TP.

Do all of Jean's/Karen Grant's good feats happen in ultimate comics ; x-men or are there some important ones that are scattered throughout the other ultimate titles?

Not really, at all. She has some ok work in Cataylism as she psy wise mess with Galactus, but thats it. Everything for her is purely X comics related. I mean, she was the most powerful being in Ultimate Comics really, well her and Silver Searcher, and the writers seem to avoid her in stories for that reason.

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#78 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: If they are they’re most likely wrong. Were the scans that you posted when she had the Phoenix?

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#79 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@elpendejo: Last 10 issues of the X-men run she manifests her traditional fire red Psy abilities and manifests the Phoenix itself.

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#80 Posted by ElPendejo (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: So she wasn’t Phoenix boosted until then? Those other scans seem very impressive. Depending on Ultimate Jeans skill she just might win.

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#81 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: So she wasn’t Phoenix boosted until then? Those other scans seem very impressive. Depending on Ultimate Jeans skill she just might win.

Correct. Jean TP powers were always Green, and as Karen they were purple/pink. Every time she Phoenix out or manifested they were firey red with avatar of Phoenix in the energy form.

So alot of the feats with Utopia were non phoenix ones.

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#82 Edited by PyroFN (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Jean clearly says she lost it in the scan marvelfan posted. So, the most logical conclusion is that it came back to her. Why? No one knows apparently.

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#83 Posted by Koays (11731 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

@tourneymaster: Jean clearly says she lost it in the scan marvelfan posted. So, the most logical conclusion is that it came back to her. Why? No one knows apparently.

And then suddenly leaves again as soon as Ultimate Comics X-men ends since even in follow up Ultimate crossovers and events she doesnt have it.....

Idk. Honestly my assumption was that she never lost it for a long time because it was the only explanation to then end of the Utopia arc, then Bendis came along and told me Teen Jean was stronger then her so I accepted that the only was that makes sense is if she doesnt have it.

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#84 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3107 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:
@pyrofn said:

@tourneymaster: Jean clearly says she lost it in the scan marvelfan posted. So, the most logical conclusion is that it came back to her. Why? No one knows apparently.

And then suddenly leaves again as soon as Ultimate Comics X-men ends since even in follow up Ultimate crossovers and events she doesnt have it.....

Idk. Honestly my assumption was that she never lost it for a long time because it was the only explanation to then end of the Utopia arc, then Bendis came along and told me Teen Jean was stronger then her so I accepted that the only was that makes sense is if she doesnt have it.

plot no jutsu

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#85 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: @marvelfan1992: @koays: here is the issue.

Jean says she lost the PF after Warren died. This is false as she had it few comics prior right before Ultimatum. She had full Phoenix literary 1 issue prior to Ultimatum. Yet next day she claims she lost it? Its contradicting off the bat.

Well maybe its retcon? False again. If retcon then why the last 10 issues of the X Men comics she is shown to have it and busting it out?

Well she never had it in c0mics afterward. Well duh, Ultimate Universe ends shortly after she is shown to have it again.

Look, this may seem complicated but its not. Heres why. 1) Ultimate Comics was close to being outright cancel at this time. St0ry plots where made and drop on a dime. 2) Writers all had their takes on it from arc to arc with no sense of overall continuity much less accuracy. 3) logicaly would you as a writer allow Jean her Phoenix power at all? Jean along with Silver Searcher the strongest character in the 1610 universe. Thus why she either jobbed hard when plot needed or writers never show off her PF powers till they were ready too.

The truth is Ultimate comics were a mess by this point. They went down hill since Ultimatum and crashed into cancelation by the time of Jean in question. So are we expecting answeres really?

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#86 Posted by Koays (11731 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Well she says she lost it because she tried to bring Scott and Xavier back off panel.

Either way, doesn't change the answers much. Emma without Phoenix Jean with

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#87 Edited by PyroFN (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: “Jean says she lost the PF after Warren died. This is false as she had it few comics prior right before Ultimatum. She had full Phoenix literary 1 issue prior to Ultimatum. Yet next day she claims she lost it? Its contradicting off the bat.”

No, it isn’t. People change their minds all the times and mythical gods are depicted as ruthless when their servants disobey. The Phoenix being a cosmic god, it is not hard to imagine that after that action, it rebukes Jean and leaves her without a trace.

It has no need to argue with a mere mortal. Nor does it need to explain its ways. It can do whatever the hell it wants and Jean has no power to stop it from leaving her if it wishes to do so. So there is nothing contradicting about Jean saying that it left after she tried to bring Scott and Xavier.

The only other explanation that could be there is that Jean lies about it leaving or it never left but Jean thought it did. Either way, Jean makes it clear that she doesn’t have the power. The fact that she appears to have it again says that there was a lot more going on than what was once thought before in between the events of Ultimatum and the last of the Ultimate X-Men comics.