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#1 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules:

  • Morals On/In Character: Herc Knows This Isn't His Hulk or Thor
  • Herc Has His Golden Mace & Lion Skin
  • Standard Power Levels(God Power Thor)
  • Ult Hulk Is Fighting With His Best Intellect
  • Starting 100 Yards Apart & Visible: Deserted Las Vegas
  • NO CIS, WIS, PIS, Or Jobbering
  • No BFR, Fight Is Serious
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#2 Posted by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc caves his skull in 10/10

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#3 Posted by BlessedbyHorus (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Herc can win via skill. I don't even think their strength is that far apart. In fact I think Herc man be stronger due to this.

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#4 Posted by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules stomps.

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#5 Edited by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc

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#6 Posted by uugieboogie (12777 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc 11/10

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#8 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Really, what you think would happen? Herc, guy who matches Thor and Hulk on their best days vs Ultimate Hulk, a character most people are bias against anyway, and is only Red Hulk level.

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#11 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor BFRs him or it's a bust.

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#15 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor BFRs him or it's a bust.

Nope the team can win without BFR. Thats for sure.

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#17 Posted by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules.

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#19 Posted by Noone301994 (22169 posts) - - Show Bio

Team wins.

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#20 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

Ult Hulk isn't even Rulk level tho, anyway Herc for a majority.

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#21 Posted by uugieboogie (12777 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc 6-7/10 maybe 8/10

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#22 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Hercules.

Proof? I love to hear your arguments in this clear win for Ultimate team.

Team wins.

^ This guy sees it!

Ultimate Thor (full power) > Ultimate Hulk. Put the two together, now you have a excellent shot at beating Herc.

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#23 Posted by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Better feats.

These two would never last against 616 Thor or (Pre-Core breach) Hulk.

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#24 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Ult Hulk isn't even Rulk level tho, anyway Herc for a majority.

Actually as the CaV with Serrur shows, he is. You yourself may not agree with it, but the feats of both more than match up.

Also how can Herc win this clear win for Ultimates?

Its so easy for bias people to say "Herc wins" and not explain why.

Ultimate Thor is more than strong enough to hurt Herc, is way faster, as skilled, and has way more versatility with range and flight. Ultimate Hulk as a distraction getting licks in seals the deal.

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#25 Posted by BlessedbyHorus (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

With both Ultimate Thor and Hulk this fight is even closer with them possibly even winning.

Hercules is not winning with "ease".

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#26 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Better feats.

These two would never last against 616 Thor or (Pre-Core breach) Hulk.

Says you. Thor has also beaten Herc where Herc never beaten Thor, so your ABC logic fails in this case. Also Herc is inferior to Hulk as well. Herc is the same guy nearly beaten to death by Wrecking Crew who at the time could barely beat down depower Juggernaut.

Not seeing it. Ultimate Thor in secrete Wars alone tank multiple blows from Rune Thor.

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Match Unworthy Thor in a Spar, with strength locked up!

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All this is depower Ultimate Thor too. not even his God Mode which tank a blow to the center of the earth with no damage.

Oh, before you try to say "That is not Thor, he is a alternate, Thor died." Nope. Ultimate Thor was never killed with Ultimate Marvel, he was BFRed with Galactus at the time by the Maker, though galactus escape. Ultimate Thor was still well and alive.

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Ultimate Thor with his full power of god hood restored by this super suit slammed Galactus into a loss!

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You have no case for Herc winning honestly.

@king_stranglehold_da_first said:

With both Ultimate Thor and Hulk this fight is even closer with them possibly even winning.

Hercules is not winning with "ease".

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#27 Posted by uugieboogie (12777 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: "Tanking hits" from RKT sounds a lot like PIS and after looking at the scans he didn't tank anything. It looks like he got two-shotted.

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#28 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:

Ult Hulk isn't even Rulk level tho, anyway Herc for a majority.

Actually as the CaV with Serrur shows, he is. You yourself may not agree with it, but the feats of both more than match up.

Also how can Herc win this clear win for Ultimates?

Its so easy for bias people to say "Herc wins" and not explain why.

Ultimate Thor is more than strong enough to hurt Herc, is way faster, as skilled, and has way more versatility with range and flight. Ultimate Hulk as a distraction getting licks in seals the deal.

Unless Loebforce was not allowed in that CAV or Serrur did a horrible job, Ult Hulk is not a match for Rulk.

Which Thor is this? The one that get's smacked around regularly by Ult Hulk or the one with his godhood fully restored?

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#29 Edited by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: for the tenth time that's not the real ultimate thor, nor the real rune thor, nor the real any friggin thor. Doom created him along with everyone else on battleworld, he had free reign over how powerful everyone was on battleworld. Valeria spelled that out when she said everyone's energy signatures linked back to doom because he created them, everyone's ASIDE from the REAL versions of characters, such as she thor, spiderman, reed richards and so on, which again, was spoon fed to readers by Valeria richards explaining it. Doom created everyone on battleworld, and specially made the Thor's as a police force, said thors all doing things like get gutted by lady deathstrike or killed by an rpg from punisher. Sorry to burst your bubble but the real ultimate thor died sometime during the incursions along with everyone else in marvel, the secret wars version IS NOT him.

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#30 Edited by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Those weren't 616 versions of Rune Thor or Unworthy Thor ergo they're featless. And where's the evidence he wasn't in full godhood then anyway?

The only time Thor best Hercules I know of is when he was drunk but the point isn't that he's superior or equal to Thor but that he can compete and these two can't. Wrecker also one-shotted Hulk back in the day so this was clearly before his crew were written at their modern levels.

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#31 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: "Tanking hits" from RKT sounds a lot like PIS and after looking at the scans he didn't tank anything. It looks like he got two-shotted.

In the scans he tanks several hits, and even locks up in the second scan with his own strength and power to hold hold Runy's own. Nothing PIS about it than the high end feats of Herc, Hulk, ect.

@sirfizzwhizz: for the tenth time that's not the real ultimate thor, nor the real rune thor, nor the real any friggin thor. Doom created him along with everyone else on battleworld, he had free reign over how powerful everyone was on battleworld. Valeria spelled that out when she said everyone's energy signatures linked back to doom because he created them, everyone's ASIDE from the REAL versions of characters, such as she thor, spiderman, reed richards and so on, which again, was spoon fed to readers by Valeria richards explaining it. Doom created everyone on battleworld, and specially made the Thor's as a police force, said thors all doing things like get gutted by lady deathstrike or killed by an rpg from punisher. Sorry to burst your bubble but the real ultimate thor died sometime during the incursions along with everyone else in marvel, the secret wars version IS NOT him.

For the tenth time, Ultimate Thor never died, so you have no ground to say its not Ultimate Thor when the writers made it to be anyway. Doom could easily wiped his memory and made him part of the Corps. After all Unworthy Thor is the real Thor as it is hinted with memory of what happen.

@sirfizzwhizz: Those weren't 616 versions of Rune Thor or Unworthy Thor ergo they're featless. And where's the evidence he wasn't in full godhood then anyway?

The only time Thor best Hercules I know of is when he was drunk but the point isn't that he's superior or equal to Thor but that he can compete and these two can't. Wrecker also one-shotted Hulk back in the day so this was clearly before his crew were written at their modern levels.

Same as above. Your counter is weak thanks to Ultimate Thor never dying with Ultimate Marvel. Prove to me that Thor is not the same Thor streanded in a pocket Dimension that Galactus had issues escaping from, and not simply relocated. I will be waiting for that solid proof.

Unless Loebforce was not allowed in that CAV or Serrur did a horrible job, Ult Hulk is not a match for Rulk.

Which Thor is this? The one that get's smacked around regularly by Ult Hulk or the one with his godhood fully restored?

That is your oponion. Rulk and Ultimate Hulk are not that far apart regardless by feats. unless your talking Rulk willingly draining things then he wins.

This is God Thor.

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#32 Posted by Sy8000 (34282 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about Runey and Odinson. Nothing suggests they were 616 versions.

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#33 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about Runey and Odinson. Nothing suggests they were 616 versions.

Ah, Fair enough then. I will admit, that is fair. However, that is Unworthy Thor IIRC. That is the real one I mean as he has the memories of 616.

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#34 Edited by uugieboogie (12777 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: He got hit, fell, then they locked and then he was overpowered and put to sleep. You made that feat out to be something it's not, he didn't TANK anything. And there's no proof this Runy (who looks at lot like King Thor from 14412) has even a fraction of RKT power.

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#35 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie said:

@sirfizzwhizz: He got hit, fell, then they locked and then he was overpowered and put to sleep. You made that feat out to be something it's not, he didn't TANK anything. And there's no proof this Runy (who looks at lot like King Thor from 14412) has even a fraction of RKT power.

He tank the hammer to the head scan 1. Match strength in scan 2. Then took three more blows in Scan 3. More than two. You are right about the strength of this character being in question, but being the strongest member of the Corps as BRB and Ultimate commented about together is pretty good.

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Edit: I was missing a scan. It was five hits. And Thor got right back up to fight him with Unworthy Thor after Rune flew away.

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#36 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: @highaccuser: @uugieboogie: Since I knew I was right in this, I went through my collection of Secrete Wars.

First off, Ultimate Thor never died.

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He was BFRed alive and well into the N Zone with Galactus, and never escaped. When Doom remade Battleworld he did so with what was left of the Multiverse that merge that fateful day. IMO ultimate Thor never shown to die in the last days of Ultimate Marvel and 616 Marvel was likely drag to Battleworld like Old Man Logan was, and others. Mind wiped by Doom of his past. This is backed by the scans below.

Dr Strange states everyone is who they are, but altered memories.

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So people are who they are, not just created out of air by Doom, but altered memories.

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Even if you want to say he is a alternate Thor, then why is he still Ultimate Thor? A alternate Thor of 616 already? There is only one Ultimate Thor.

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During his talks with Loki who had the answered and new the truth of Doom's world, he tells Ultimate Thor Doom is not the Father as all the Alternate Thors believed him to be. Including Ultimate.

Still not convince? Lets look at Jane Fostner Thor. The one who states it in clear plain terms.

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The Thors are not made by Doom, or even normal people given power. A lot of them are legit What if or alternate Universe Thors pre Secrete Wars. All lied to by Doom altering memories like Strange explain.

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Here again Jane states to Thor that he seem to been through a few major world events, which Ultimate has, but further more states he is not the Thor of her universe. Why would she say this if Ultimate Thor was not legit Thor and some nobody given power? He must be legit as been said and shown so far.

Final Nail in the coffin is this proof.

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As seen, in the final battle with Doom under attack by everyone, Rune Thor's hammer and powers fade, as stated that Dooms powers are fading. However, Ultimate Thor hammer is fine, works fine, and actually remains empowered as it travels to the original 616 Asgard with its enchantments in place.

All that is solid no argument proof Ultimate Thor is legit. For those arguing against Ultimate Thor as legit, you need to just deal with it. As for the other Thors, a lot of them retain their power showing they are legit which makes sense as well with what Strange and Jane state. Rune Thor power was clearly link to Doom though while others were not.

Edit: Rune Thor was a alternate Thor, and stated on of the strongest of the Corp, his power was link to Doom, but only in able to wield the hammer, the Hammer still had the enchantment meaning Rune Thor was legit, but do to his loyalty to Doom was unworthy after Dooms powers faded to allow Rune Thor to wield the hammer. Friend pointed that out to me, my mistake. All are legit Thors with altered memories. Tied to Doom in only memory altering, and able to wield Hammers whether Worthy or not as Doom decrees.

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#37 Edited by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

For the tenth time, Ultimate Thor never died, so you have no ground to say its not Ultimate Thor when the writers made it to be anyway. Doom could easily wiped his memory and made him part of the Corps. After all Unworthy Thor is the real Thor as it is hinted with memory of what happen.

Yes. He. Did. The incursions didn't just take place between a handful of universes; Every universe in existence was wiped out, there wasn't a single place ultimate thor could have been where he would have been safe from them. This event was perpetrated by a race of beings of beings that took down the living tribunal and originally planned to wipe out everything all at once. Moreover he wasn't identified as having an energy signature that didn't link back to doom, ergo, doom created him. The only being on battleworld that had a different energy signature to doom (prior to the cabal and heroes surfacing) was Dr strange, who also happened to be 616 strange and the only person on battleworld who wasn't created by doom.

You have nothing supporting your argument aside from it was "intended to be him" as if that means anything. We have factual evidence such as:

  1. Valeria stating outright that everyone on battleworld had the same energy signature from doom, the only exceptions being the few people who survived the incursions, neither ultimate thor or unworthy thor were one of them.
  2. Valeria also stating that the 'real', 616 thanos had a much higher energy reading (as well as a different one) to every other thanos on battleworld, meaning that the regular thanos was more powerful than fakes, evidently doom had screwed with power levels because he was the sole creator of battleworld, something you keep ignoring.
  3. Outright evidence of doom messing with people he knew by making human torch the sun and the thing a 100ft tall behemoth that can trade hits with galactus.

There's absolutely nothing that says ultimate thor is the real one on battleworld, if there is proof I strongly recommend that you show me, if not then stop pretending he is.

Unworthy is not the real thor either given that we know exactly what happened to him before secret wars...

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... Him and hyperion got mauled by a single beyonder that was toying with them, and only survived because starbrand suicide bombed it. Another portal opened and over a dozen beyonders came streaming through, one armed thor and blind hyperion versus two dozen versions of the same guy that previously wrecked them, I wonder who won?

Same as above. Your counter is weak thanks to Ultimate Thor never dying with Ultimate Marvel. Prove to me that Thor is not the same Thor streanded in a pocket Dimension that Galactus had issues escaping from, and not simply relocated. I will be waiting for that solid proof.

My proof is in the whole theme and story of secret wars, every reality was destroyed, not just 616 and the ultimate universe (honestly, did you even know that?). This event was at such a magnitude that franklin richards couldnt do anything to stop a single incursion and the infinity gauntlet broke by preventing one of them, according to reed richards and tony stark there were an infinite number going on. The only way to survive that was theorised by basically every supergenius on earth was to build an ark that could take them outside of reality itself, something that only worked long enough to keep a few people alive before doom created battleworld. My proof is in the blatantly obvious fact that if Doom created you, you had the same energy signature as him.A fact that you keep ignoring. If ultimate thor was the same guy, he would have a different energy signature to doom. He didnt. End of conversation.

Edit: I just saw your most recent post and i'm honestly wanting to scream, its so ridiculously flawed i don't know where to begin.

TL;DR: Fact of the matter is, if doom created you, your energy signature links to his. If it doesnt, then he did not create you. People like ben grimm remembered the old world after thanos spoke to him about it, doesnt change the fact that said ben grimm was 100ft tall and smacked galactus in the face.

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#38 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Sigh, I had countered all this already.

Yes. He. Did. The incursions didn't just take place between a handful of universes; Every universe in existence was wiped out, there wasn't a single place ultimate thor could have been where he would have been safe from them. This event was perpetrated by a race of beings of beings that took down the living tribunal and originally planned to wipe out everything all at once. Moreover he wasn't identified as having an energy signature that didn't link back to doom, ergo, doom created him. The only being on battleworld that had a different energy signature to doom (prior to the cabal and heroes surfacing) was Dr strange, who also happened to be 616 strange and the only person on battleworld who wasn't created by doom.

Yet Old Man Logan lived. Same for MCU universe which has a official Marvel Universe designation heh heh. Still same Old Man Logan though he was never shown to survive mate. Thor was never shown to died either.

Of course he had a energy signature to Doom, he was mentally controlled by Doom with false lies implanted in his head, and power to wield a Hammer whether worthy or not. Already explain this with statements from the comics. Does not mean he is not he same Ultimate Thor, or half the others for that matter.

In fact dead or not, the same characters who died were revived back on Battle World anyway only to get place back in 616 Marvel Universe as the originals lmao.

You have no case here mate.

You have nothing supporting your argument aside from it was "intended to be him" as if that means anything. We have factual evidence such as:

Valeria stating outright that everyone on battleworld had the same energy signature from doom, the only exceptions being the few people who survived the incursions, neither ultimate thor or unworthy thor were one of them.

I countered this with scans and truth. Your twisting someones words to mean how you like them to be meaning.

Valeria also stating that the 'real', 616 thanos had a much higher energy reading (as well as a different one) to every other thanos on battleworld, meaning that the regular thanos was more powerful than fakes, evidently doom had screwed with power levels because he was the sole creator of battleworld, something you keep ignoring.

There is no fakes. She states 616 becuase he is likely the strongest Thanos, not the others are fakes, just weaker. Pretty common sense. Something you seem to ignore yourself.

Outright evidence of doom messing with people he knew by making human torch the sun and the thing a 100ft tall behemoth that can trade hits with galactus.

That is Doom manipulating people. So what? This has nothing to do with the fact the Alternate versions of beings brought ot battleworld are not the same versions they represent. Much less have anything to do with Ultimate Thor who never shown to die.

There's absolutely nothing that says ultimate thor is the real one on battleworld, if there is proof I strongly recommend that you show me, if not then stop pretending he is.

I showed proof, you choose to ignore it. Ultimate Thor is stated and hinted as the original deal, never died, and had his powers after Doom's own powers faded. Duh....

Unworthy is not the real thor either given that we know exactly what happened to him before secret wars...

... Him and hyperion got mauled by a single beyonder that was toying with them, and only survived because starbrand suicide bombed it. Another portal opened and over a dozen beyonders came streaming through, one armed thor and blind hyperion versus two dozen versions of the same guy that previously wrecked them, I wonder who won?

So he was shown to be killed on panel? nope. All we see is Unworthy having his easily replaceable arm ripped off, and never dying on panel. Hundreds of things could have happen mate. You just assume he died, and try to use this weak argument as proof :/

My proof is in the whole theme and story of secret wars, every reality was destroyed, not just 616 and the ultimate universe (honestly, did you even know that?).

Yes. I own the first two issues, Thors, and some other scattered ones like Ultimate hulk vs hulk comics.

This event was at such a magnitude that franklin richards couldnt do anything to stop a single incursion and the infinity gauntlet broke by preventing one of them, according to reed richards and tony stark there were an infinite number going on. The only way to survive that was theorised by basically every supergenius on earth was to build an ark that could take them outside of reality itself, something that only worked long enough to keep a few people alive before doom created battleworld. My proof is in the blatantly obvious fact that if Doom created you, you had the same energy signature as him.A fact that you keep ignoring. If ultimate thor was the same guy, he would have a different energy signature to doom. He didnt. End of conversation.

You say this like it matters. Doom may had recreated many beings to their former glory. As for energy signatures, herpy derp, Doom was mentally manipulating and altering people. the Thor Corps were deriving power from him before his powers faded which is why Rune Thor could not weild his hammer anymore being unworthy but sustain by Dooms will. I guess Domms faded power is why Ultimate Thor's hammer is still empowered and stuck on 616 Asgard :) yeah makes total sense its not the original and dependent on Dooms power lmao.

End of conversation lol.

TL;DR: Fact of the matter is, if doom created you, your energy signature links to his. If it doesnt, then he did not create you. People like ben grimm remembered the old world after thanos spoke to him about it, doesnt change the fact that said ben grimm was 100ft tall and smacked galactus in the face.

I disproved this. This argument is like saying if you were remade by 616 Phoenix like jean was, she is no longer 616 Jean lmao. Bringing people back from the dead or the end of the universes means nothing when characters like Ultimate Thor, unworthy Thor, never died. matters little when Jane Thor has all the memories of 616 Jane Thor lmao. Matters little when Old Man Logan who was destroyed is the same Old Man Logan in 616 Universe now as the one destroyed. Your Ben Grimm example means NOTHING when Doom made him that way with his ultimate controls of all realities. Still same Grimm made different intentionally. not a big shocker and not unheard of.

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#39 Posted by uugieboogie (12777 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: But that still doesn't display him tanking hits, he's clearly getting stomped his face clearly shows he didn't tank any hits. Also that still doesn't show how powerful "Runey" is, all that shows is he's more powerful than Ult Thor. All I said was that feat wasn't what you made it out to be.

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#40 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: But that still doesn't display him tanking hits, he's clearly getting stomped his face clearly shows he didn't tank any hits. Also that still doesn't show how powerful "Runey" is, all that shows is he's more powerful than Ult Thor. All I said was that feat wasn't what you made it out to be.

Runey was the strongest in the Coprs according to BRB and Ultimate Thor. That says alot when the Corps held their own against the original Thanos, Maker, and others. So not seeing a problem with the feat of Ultimate Thor tanking (by that not being KOed easy at all) from a blood lusted Rune Thor.

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Even Susan states her force fields could not tank a few hammer swings of what they are dishing. I dont think they are weak much less the strongest of them.

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#41 Posted by Pipxeroth (8665 posts) - - Show Bio
  • NO CIS, WIS, PIS, Or Jobbering
  • No BFR, Fight Is Serious

Herc for sure

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#42 Posted by Sirfizwhiz (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

@pipxeroth: nope. No jobbing means Hulk is better. Thor can harm and casually beat Hyperion, and Hulk can fight off the Ultimates and two Squadron Supremes with little issue.

Herc loses.

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#43 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36098 posts) - - Show Bio

bumpity

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#44 Posted by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

Yet Old Man Logan lived. Same for MCU universe which has a official Marvel Universe designation heh heh. Still same Old Man Logan though he was never shown to survive mate. Thor was never shown to died either.

Of course he had a energy signature to Doom, he was mentally controlled by Doom with false lies implanted in his head, and power to wield a Hammer whether worthy or not. Already explain this with statements from the comics. Does not mean he is not he same Ultimate Thor, or half the others for that matter.

In fact dead or not, the same characters who died were revived back on Battle World anyway only to get place back in 616 Marvel Universe as the originals lmao.

No he didn't, he died along with everything else. If anything doom just revived him because logan isnt a threat to battleworld. Victor isn't dumb enough to allow someone powerful enough to wreck a city, let alone anything bigger than that on battleworld. We have blatant proof that doom could mess with power levels (ben grimm for example), so ill admit that I was wrong on one front; Maybe certain people on battleworld are the real versions of themselves, but I still maintain that they weren't as powerful given that feats and valeria support that interpretation, as does common sense.

No he wasn't, they just had false lies spread around by doom that he was the one true 'god', the creator of everything and all that jada jada. He didn't have control over anyone, given that people like maestro were openly plotting behind his back and there had been multiple rebellions before the cabal and the heroes even showed up, and battleworld had only existed for eight years before everything really went to sh#t. He either revived them or created them.

We don't know that, and that statement is coming out of pure ignorance given that secret wars #9 wasn't released till today. After doom lost, reed, franklin and molecule man created new universes and for most heroes they just appeared in the new universe after a flash. Susan storm for example didnt know who reed was, until everything started to get reset and she got a new costume, as well as becoming seemingly a different person from the one in battleworld. Only a few people such as maestro and logan are 100% confirmed to be the same guys from battleworld.

I countered this with scans and truth. Your twisting someones words to mean how you like them to be meaning.

This is hilarious given that you admitted you only own secret wars #1 and #2, yet you still have the audacity to claim that i'm the one twisting things when you dont even know what the hell it is that i'm supposedly 'twisting', given that it takes place after those two issues, I cant find the scan of her speaking at the minute (if anyone has it itd be awesome if you could post it). Talk about arguing from ignorance... Moreover all the info and 'proof' to support your case comes from tie ins, and secret wars tie ins are a jumbled mess with even marvel basically admitting this. Silver Surfer was saying how he flew through stars for fun when only one star actually existed and it was forbidden to go there, there was like three versions of the same maestro all supposedly ruling dystopia and being a baron of doom (maestro was permanently incapacitated early in secret wars, yet for whatever reason was running around in three other series as the exact same guy). Apocalypse died in his own series (the baron one that worked for doom) but was fighting in the final battle and got killed again, as the exact same apocalypse... Heck, even thors varied in power depending on the series, punisher killed a bunch with a rocket launcher, lady deathstrike killed 3 of them, yet logan got stomped by one in his series. Hulks from greenland were below captain america in the 'planet hulk' tie in, yet were killing thors and being badass in the main series. There was little to no communication between writers and the main story has dozens of plot holes when taking into account tie ins.

There is no fakes. She states 616 becuase he is likely the strongest Thanos, not the others are fakes, just weaker. Pretty common sense. Something you seem to ignore yourself.

Or doom purposely depowered them so they couldn't threaten battleworld, you know, because its the last remnant of life in existence?

That is Doom manipulating people. So what? This has nothing to do with the fact the Alternate versions of beings brought ot battleworld are not the same versions they represent. Much less have anything to do with Ultimate Thor who never shown to die.

It shows he screwed with power levels, which is what i'm getting at. And jesus christ, you previously said that he was bfred to the negative zone, annihilus and everything else that was in the negative zone was in secret wars as well.

So he was shown to be killed on panel? nope. All we see is Unworthy having his easily replaceable arm ripped off, and never dying on panel. Hundreds of things could have happen mate. You just assume he died, and try to use this weak argument as proof :/

It was directly implied:

No Caption Provided

One of those guys did this to them:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Scans are all jumbled, they go far right, far left, left of centre, then right of centre

But yeah, its perfectly reasonable that they survived that onslaught...

Doom was mentally manipulating and altering people.

Altering yes, manipulating (with powers) no.

I disproved this. This argument is like saying if you were remade by 616 Phoenix like jean was, she is no longer 616 Jean lmao.

No its not, given that doom blatantly screwed with peoples power levels so they weren't a threat to him or battleworld. Galactus has been able to make odin look like a joke and one time refused to fight him physically because their hits would cause too much collateral damage. In secret wars he was stalemated by groot...

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#45 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

your argument falls part here.

No he didn't, he died along with everything else. If anything doom just revived him because logan isnt a threat to battleworld. Victor isn't dumb enough to allow someone powerful enough to wreck a city, let alone anything bigger than that on battleworld.

I stop caring after that. Your all assumption. Blind, bias assumptions. "Doom will resurrect some characters as they were suppose to be, only because it fits my argument to say so." Thats what you said. Laaaame.

In the end you cannot accept the fact that these characters are meant to be who they are. Ultimate Hulk is Ultimate Hulk. Ultimate Thor is Ultimate Thor. Old man Logan is Old Man Logan. Deal with it.

You still cannot explain how Ultimate Thor and certain others remain empowered when Dooms powers faded, or why his Hammer will be in 616 with power if its just some random made Hammer with random low power attach to it by Doom. Or why all these characters have memories, altered and not, of their past lives.

Your done. You can try to state all you want, "Thats not Ultimate Thor, some featless Thor that looks like Ultimate, has altered memories, and we never seen Ultimate Thor died." Your done. You have little argument to the evidence I showed otherwise other than acting alike a DBZ fan "but but but power levels!!!" Like that shit means anything other than 616 Thanos is the strongest Thanos, which makes sense as Ultimate Thanos was a bitch ;/

So in the end, I think your wrong. Really want to prove me wrong, get a quote or statement from a writer that states all these characters are weaker than who they are suppose to be. That the have no relation to the past comics of who they represent. till then, your wrong.

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#46 Posted by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'm losing more respect for you each time you make a post man, first the lowballing of people like hulk, then randomly grabbing scans off of google without even looking at them, blind accusations when you essentially admitted you didn't even know what I was referring to, and now using "your wrong, get an official statement from marvel or your 100% wrong!" as some kind of argument.

Maybe doom did ressurect them, maybe he just created them, but we do know that they aren't the 100% same people that we all know, otherwise they would have a different energy signature to doom, and no, doom wasn't mentally controlling them or any other crap that you could come up with, they were just fed lies; that's it.

Hurr durr because they were good people, not all of dooms thors were dicks and the vast majority of them were 'good guys', but you haven't read past issue 2 so you wouldn't know that. Rune thor was unworthy because he was loyal to doom, which also disproves him being the 'real' rune king thor given that he was indeed worthy and had zero trouble lifting mjolnir.

More whining.

What the hell kind of argument is that? "Get a qoute from marvel or your wrong". I might have to start using that from now on.

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#47 Posted by Sirfizwhiz (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: that's a long post for a rant. Respectfully disagree with your views. That's all they are to, your views.

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#48 Posted by SpectrumUnbound (811 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Edited by Thedailybagel (12353 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizwhiz: people made by doom having the same energy as him isn't a view, it's a fact. Doom messing with power levels isn't a view, it's a fact. You making blind accusations without even knowing what i was talking about isnt a view, it's a fact.

But you know, until you get a statement from marvel then your wrong anyway :p

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#50 Posted by Sirfizwhiz (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: all the statements in Thors about altered memeroies, statements of not being from the same universe, having power when Dooms faded and such proves all Doom did was remade the same people at best, or simply Unworthy and Ultimate Thor survive and brought to Battleword with altered memories.

All you qoute is Alternate Thanos having Doom energy as proof for everyone. Not buying that sillyness when Old Man Logan was made by Thanos, yet same character from his universe.

Tough cookie little one.