Ultimate Battle of the Ancient and Modern Sith

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ShootingNova

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#1  Edited By ShootingNova

Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Naga Sadow, Karness Muur & Tulak Hord

"The Sith Empire will burn brightly, like a supernova, dwarfing the complacent Republic. We shall hold the entire galaxy in our grasp."

VS

Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader & Darth Plagueis

"Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have peace."

Morals

  • Morals are on
  • Team members are willing to cooperate with one another completely

Equipment

  • Standard equipment

Versions

  • Prime living versions unless otherwise specified
  • RotS Palpatine

Location

No Caption Provided
  • Ancient Sith start at the blue arrow
  • Modern Sith start at the blue arrow
  • The fire traps (periodic) and acid pits (continuous) are all active
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ShootingNova

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WollfMyth209

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#3  Edited By WollfMyth209

Too. Many. Variables.

Vader and Dooku are the only ones(bar Sidious) that I can see competing with or even beating some of the ancient Sith. Maul and Savage, tho...

However, Team 2 has better synergy and are, obviously, more skilled. It's not by a drastic margin, tho. The ancients are, collectively speaking, more powerful overall. But I'm not sure if that could save them. I think a case could be made for either team.

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Sy8000

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Just at first glance Sidious is the best person here by far but except for Vader his teammates lack power compared to the opposition (except maybe Tulak who I'm undecided on).

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Eisenfauste

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@shootingnova: Wait....if I'm an infidel why was I invited here? ;)

Alright a shot in the dark. Team 2 wins. They have overall the better duelists comparable or greater force showings than some of those on team 1. I mean they also have Sidious who's speed oustrips everyone on team 1 by a fair margin. Basically anyone he faces will get demolished in a fight. . . . some faster than others. Honestly as soon as Sidious finishes up with whomever he faces he can aid anyone else on his team having difficulty. Karness muur and Nadd may be the problems on team 1 IIRC they like abusing their power and esoteric techniques in battle. I'd still hand it to Modern Sith though, shoulda taken out Sidious.

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Sirfizwhiz

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I was never convince by accolades alone or unsupported statements of the overwhelming power Ancient Sith had. Im backing Modern Sith base on feats.

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echostarlord117

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IIRC, the ancient Sith, specifically Tulak, Marka, and Naga, have lackluster dueling feats. And I wouldn't put their Force mastery above the modern Sith for the most part, especially with Sidious being on team 2. I'd say team 2 wins, but it would definitely be a good fight. I feel like team 1 would benefit a lot from some prep, because I know most of them on the list are proficient in one form of Sith Magic or another. Perhaps that would even out the odds

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Eisenfauste

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IIRC, the ancient Sith, specifically Tulak, Marka, and Naga, have lackluster dueling feats. And I wouldn't put their Force mastery above the modern Sith for the most part, especially with Sidious being on team 2. I'd say team 2 wins, but it would definitely be a good fight. I feel like team 1 would benefit a lot from some prep, because I know most of them on the list are proficient in one form of Sith Magic or another. Perhaps that would even out the odds

Naga Sadow is an army buster he clearly has significant skill to his name.

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echostarlord117

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#10  Edited By echostarlord117

@eisenfauste said:
@echostarlord117 said:

IIRC, the ancient Sith, specifically Tulak, Marka, and Naga, have lackluster dueling feats. And I wouldn't put their Force mastery above the modern Sith for the most part, especially with Sidious being on team 2. I'd say team 2 wins, but it would definitely be a good fight. I feel like team 1 would benefit a lot from some prep, because I know most of them on the list are proficient in one form of Sith Magic or another. Perhaps that would even out the odds

Naga Sadow is an army buster he clearly has significant skill to his name.

He could also cause supernovas. Never said he wasn't skilled or powerful. I just don't recall his lightsaber dueling feats to be all that great. At least when compared to some of the folks on team 2.

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Eisenfauste

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#11  Edited By Eisenfauste

@eisenfauste said:
@echostarlord117 said:

IIRC, the ancient Sith, specifically Tulak, Marka, and Naga, have lackluster dueling feats. And I wouldn't put their Force mastery above the modern Sith for the most part, especially with Sidious being on team 2. I'd say team 2 wins, but it would definitely be a good fight. I feel like team 1 would benefit a lot from some prep, because I know most of them on the list are proficient in one form of Sith Magic or another. Perhaps that would even out the odds

Naga Sadow is an army buster he clearly has significant skill to his name.

He could also cause supernovas. Never said he wasn't skilled or powerful. I just don't recall his lightsaber dueling feats to be all that great. At least when compared to some of the folks on team 2.

That's because they aren't.

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Spiderman1997

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#Sidious #speedblitz #ancientsithaintgotskill

I hope people realize this is a joke.

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echostarlord117

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@echostarlord117 said:
@eisenfauste said:
@echostarlord117 said:

IIRC, the ancient Sith, specifically Tulak, Marka, and Naga, have lackluster dueling feats. And I wouldn't put their Force mastery above the modern Sith for the most part, especially with Sidious being on team 2. I'd say team 2 wins, but it would definitely be a good fight. I feel like team 1 would benefit a lot from some prep, because I know most of them on the list are proficient in one form of Sith Magic or another. Perhaps that would even out the odds

Naga Sadow is an army buster he clearly has significant skill to his name.

He could also cause supernovas. Never said he wasn't skilled or powerful. I just don't recall his lightsaber dueling feats to be all that great. At least when compared to some of the folks on team 2.

That's because they aren't.

Exactly. And the same could be said for most of team 1. I think that really puts them at a disadvantage. And overall their in-combat Force feats aren't any better than team 2's as far as I know. Again, if they had some prep, depending on how much prep they get, they could possibly even stomp. Perhaps at the expense of their own lives, now that I think about it...

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ShootingNova

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#14  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords: @wollfmyth209: Well, to be fair, I used to hate debating in complicated threads myself, so let's make it easier.

Darth Sidious vs Exar Kun and Karness Muur

Darth Plagueis vs Freedon Nadd

Darth Vader vs Marka Ragnos

Darth Tyranus vs Naga Sadow

Darth Maul vs Tulak Hord

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WollfMyth209

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Sidious vs Exar Kun and Karness Muur

Darth Vader vs Marka Ragnos

Darth Tyranus vs Naga Sadow

Maul & Savage Opress vs Freedon Nadd and Tulak Hord(in a stomp)

I underlined the winners... Team 1 based on the match ups above.

I should really remove Savage and replace him with Plagueis, huh?

Would make it more fair. I'd back Team 2 in that case.

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ShootingNova

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#16  Edited By ShootingNova

@wollfmyth209: Interesting to see you have Ragnos over Vader, but I agree with the rest, except Sidious beating Exar and Muur (or at least, they give him hell). But then, if Vader sensed that his power combined with that of Muur overshadowed a more powerful version of Palpatine's, then somebody who is more powerful than Vader (Kun) and Muur would certainly be more powerful than this version of Palpatine. Obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean they win, but they have the showings and the evidence in all categories (saber skill, physicals, Force power) etc. to suggest that Sidious isn't so far ahead of them in any category that they can't even see him, and when you put them together, they could well bring down the Emperor.

Anyway, I'll substitute Savage with Plagueis, and I'll edit the match-up list above.

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WollfMyth209

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Interesting to see you have Ragnos over Vader,

He is in the same league as Muur, who's all but officially confirmed to be more powerful than Vader.

but I agree with the rest, except Sidious beating Exar and Muur (or at least, they give him hell).

They probably would give him a fight for his life. He'd just about stomp Muur, if I'm being honest. And he should win everytime against Kun. So I think he can take'em for a a majority. Now for the new match ups:

Darth Sidious vs Exar Kun and Karness Muur

Darth Plagueis vs Freedon Nadd

Darth Vader vs Marka Ragnos

Darth Tyranus vs Naga Sadow

Darth Maul vs Tulak Hord

Probably the modern Sith with this match up. Combined, they should be of similar power, and greater speed and skill. And the modern Sith have greater synergy which could also aid them.

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ShootingNova

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@wollfmyth209:

He is in the same league as Muur, who's all but officially confirmed to be more powerful than Vader.

Sure, he's more powerful, but that doesn't mean he's better. I do reckon he could win, I'm not too sure if it's for a majority yet, though. It could well be.

They probably would give him a fight for his life. He'd just about stomp Muur, if I'm being honest. And he should win everytime against Kun. So I think he can take'em for a a majority. Now for the new match ups:

There's not much of a disparity between Muur and Kun, and Palpatine isn't so much more powerful that he could just abuse power to separate them and then kill them one-by-one. And them fighting him together is going to be hell for him, if not death.

Probably the modern Sith with this match up. Combined, they should be of similar power, and greater speed and skill. And the modern Sith have greater synergy which could also aid them.

The thing is, Tulak Hord vs Maul could well be the fastest match-up to finish here, followed by Nadd vs Plagueis. If Tulak comes out as the first winner, though, he could attack anybody on the modern Sith and win it for his team.

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Znave

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#19  Edited By Znave

Darth Maul vs the master of gathering darkness tulak hord himself What.. A.. Joke.. You are talking about feats. Well Maul has displayed good lightsaber tecniques for his time.. But Tulak Hord displayed the best lightsaber tecniques for his time when the old sith masters lived, tulak hords greatest feat was when he alone with his dashade broke a siege of 1000 jedi knights and qonqured well above 100 planets for the Ancient sith empire. I would give maul a maximum of 15 seconds IF he was smart enough to try and run..

Concerning the other fights i would say that Sidious is the only one with a strong advantage from team 2 and his advantage is so strong that he could probably carry his team if they manage to keep Hord, Ragnos and Freedon occupied long enough for sidious to take on one or two at a time. Clearly many people here don't get that the old siths are way stronger in almost every aspect especially concerning force powers.. Much of the knowledge concerning force draining, and sith rituals got lost when the rule of two became implemented and only a few siths such as Bane, Plaguies and Sidious have knowledge concerning the most powerful aspects of the force. So let me round this up with a power house list:

1: Sidious by far since he is the most powerful sith of all time.

2: Marka ragnos, the strongest of the ancients and keeper of immense knowledge and power.

3: Tulak Hord the greates swordsman to ever have lived after Luke skywalker who is a jedi.

4: Freedon nad

5: Exar Kun

6: Naga shadow

7: Darth Plaguies

8: Karness Murr

9: Darth Vader

10: Darth Tyranus

11: Darth Maul, if this dude would have been around the siths for a longer time he could have became very strong for being a new sith but since his greates feat was taking on 2 jedis at once but only defeating one he places last on the list.

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WollfMyth209

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#20  Edited By WollfMyth209

Bump. Tulak Hord solos.

Sidious solos.

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LordOfTheLight

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Well, Modern Sith win this definitely.

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Azronger

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Sidious solos.

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kbroskywalker

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#24  Edited By kbroskywalker

@znave:

@znave said:

Darth Maul vs the master of gathering darkness tulak hord himself What.. A.. Joke.. You are talking about feats. Well Maul has displayed good lightsaber tecniques for his time.. But Tulak Hord displayed the best lightsaber tecniques for his time when the old sith masters lived, tulak hords greatest feat was when he alone with his dashade broke a siege of 1000 jedi knights and qonqured well above 100 planets for the Ancient sith empire. I would give maul a maximum of 15 seconds IF he was smart enough to try and run..

Concerning the other fights i would say that Sidious is the only one with a strong advantage from team 2 and his advantage is so strong that he could probably carry his team if they manage to keep Hord, Ragnos and Freedon occupied long enough for sidious to take on one or two at a time. Clearly many people here don't get that the old siths are way stronger in almost every aspect especially concerning force powers.. Much of the knowledge concerning force draining, and sith rituals got lost when the rule of two became implemented and only a few siths such as Bane, Plaguies and Sidious have knowledge concerning the most powerful aspects of the force. So let me round this up with a power house list:

1: Sidious by far since he is the most powerful sith of all time.

2: Marka ragnos, the strongest of the ancients and keeper of immense knowledge and power.

3: Tulak Hord the greates swordsman to ever have lived after Luke skywalker who is a jedi.

4: Freedon nad

5: Exar Kun

6: Naga shadow

7: Darth Plaguies

8: Karness Murr

9: Darth Vader

10: Darth Tyranus

11: Darth Maul, if this dude would have been around the siths for a longer time he could have became very strong for being a new sith but since his greates feat was taking on 2 jedis at once but only defeating one he places last on the list.

hord>>>>>>>>>>>yoda

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Gonna say Team 1, but the majority is slight

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noobsnowman

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Palpatine isn't soloing, especially if this is RotS Palpatine. Kun alone is enough to give him a challenge, adding the rest and he gets dogpiled.

But Palpatine and Plageuis' presence makes it horrendously one sided in the Modern Sith's favour. Team 2 stomps.

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reikai

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According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire. Which also means Tullak has great power on top of being a nearly peerless duelist. No one on the Modern Sith team could stand up to him except Sidious.

Honestly, T2 is grievously outmatched in terms of sheer power. And according to SWTOR Maria Ragnos was a superior duelist whose "class" was labeled as Juggernaut in game, showing he possessed superior physical ability as well as being among the most powerful ancient Sith to ever exist. Enough that Tenebrae, aka Darth Vititate, did not favor the idea of challenging him. St the time he could be considered on par with or stronger than the likes of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.

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noobsnowman

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I actually want to hear a genuine case for Team 1 winning, especially when Sidious and Plageuis, both who are essentially Vitiate's peers (varying on incarnation), are on Team 2.

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@reikai said:

According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire.

Oh, cool. I saw a dog with 9 legs earlier.

In all seriousness, Val's word alone isn't evidence. This is fairly basic stuff. Plus, there's always good old Rivi-Anu. You can't really win.

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AmethystGravity

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Wait, people think RotS Sidious solos?

Interesting... It's not that I agree or disagree, it's just that I know so little of the ancient sith.

Hmm.

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@reikai said:

According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire.

Oh, cool. I saw a dog with 9 legs earlier.

In all seriousness, Val's word alone isn't evidence. This is fairly basic stuff. Plus, there's always good old Rivi-Anu. You can't really win.

i'm aware of her feat, but how does riv-anu scaling work exactly?

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@i_like_swords said:
@reikai said:

According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire.

Oh, cool. I saw a dog with 9 legs earlier.

In all seriousness, Val's word alone isn't evidence. This is fairly basic stuff. Plus, there's always good old Rivi-Anu. You can't really win.

i'm aware of her feat, but how does riv-anu scaling work exactly?

She's a relative nobody, and a padawan. Unless you want to suggest she's more powerful than everyone sans Yoda and Sidious during the PT time period, she's the baseline for the greatest Jedi of that time period.

She also makes it very hard to make a feats-based argument against anyone prominent from the PT era unless you want to practice cognitive dissonance.

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kbroskywalker

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#33  Edited By kbroskywalker

@i_like_swords said:
@kbroskywalker said:
@i_like_swords said:
@reikai said:

According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire.

Oh, cool. I saw a dog with 9 legs earlier.

In all seriousness, Val's word alone isn't evidence. This is fairly basic stuff. Plus, there's always good old Rivi-Anu. You can't really win.

i'm aware of her feat, but how does riv-anu scaling work exactly?

She's a relative nobody, and a padawan. Unless you want to suggest she's more powerful than everyone sans Yoda and Sidious during the PT time period, she's the baseline for the greatest Jedi of that time period.

She also makes it very hard to make a feats-based argument against anyone prominent from the PT era unless you want to practice cognitive dissonance.

the fact that the star destroyer was completely vertical(hence having a massive weight boost via gravity) really makes that feat impressive

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Zapan871

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kbroskywalker

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@zapan871 said:

@i_like_swords: Isn't that feat generally viewed as an outlier, tho?

she was likely given a significant boost in her ability to tap in her raw power due to the situation threatening the lives of her friends

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Zapan871

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@i_like_swords: So people like Maul, Dooku, Anakin, Mace and Kenobi also have capital ship level TK?

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@zapan871: Going by feats, yes.

People find it hard to reconcile Rivi's feat, hence "outlier", but what we, the viewer, judge to be an outlier is pretty pointless in a logical discussion. We have no authority on what is an outlier, and by proxy what is to be ignored or included.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#39  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

Year ago there was discussion of team 1 winning. Today, Sidious solos. Epic fail for today fans.

Also, Riv Anu feat is simply bad writing and inconsistent. Simple as that. Marvel and DC comics are chalk full of PIS/WIS feats. But when it happens in a non canon SW comic, it's bible. What the hell SW fanbase? WTH....

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Bump. Tulak Hord solos.

Sidious solos.

@azronger said:

Sidious solos.

Um....evidence to back up sidious soloing these guys....ROTS sidious no less.

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kbroskywalker

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#41  Edited By kbroskywalker

@sirfizzwhizz said:

Year ago there was discussion of team 1 winning. Today, Sidious solos. Epic fail for today fans.

Also, Riv Anu feat is simply bad writing and inconsistent. Simple as that. Marvel and DC comics are chalk full of PIS/WIS feats. But when it happens in a non canon SW comic, it's bible. What the hell SW fanbase? WTH....

"non canon sw comic", you do realize that every single dude on team 1 is just as "non canon"? If thats how we're doing it, vader solos by default

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kbroskywalker

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#42  Edited By kbroskywalker

@themuser said:
@wollfmyth209 said:

Bump. Tulak Hord solos.

Sidious solos.

@kbroskywalker said:
@azronger said:

Sidious solos.

Um....evidence to back up sidious soloing these guys....ROTS sidious no less.

He blitzes/ragdolls them 1 by 1 and then ther'll be none

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nfactor1995

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Eh. Team 2 tbh, due to Sidious and Plagueis.

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kbroskywalker

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@reikai said:

According to Khem-Val, Tulak Hord had once yanked down a warship from the sky the same size as the Endar Spire. Which also means Tullak has great power on top of being a nearly peerless duelist. No one on the Modern Sith team could stand up to him except Sidious.

Honestly, T2 is grievously outmatched in terms of sheer power.

I mean sure team 2 has two dudes who stomp anyone in team 1 but go on

And according to SWTOR Maria Ragnos was a superior duelist whose "class" was labeled as Juggernaut in game, showing he possessed superior physical ability as well as being among the most powerful ancient Sith to ever exist. Enough that Tenebrae, aka Darth Vititate, did not favor the idea of challenging him. St the time he could be considered on par with or stronger than the likes of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.

See the problem here is everyone you mentioned here is outclassed here as duelists by everyone on team 2.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@kbroskywalker: Yes I know team two is all Legends canon. That does not change the fact a PIS/WIS feat of the non canon Clone Wars comic.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: Yes I know team two is all Legends canon. That does not change the fact a PIS/WIS feat of the non canon Clone Wars comic.

provide a source saying its not legends

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TheMuser

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@kbroskywalker: Case for blitzing? Because ragdolling seems.....unlikely to be effective when its a 6 v 1....also its not like these people aren't powerful.....some of them extremely so.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@kbroskywalker: I never said it's not legends lol. I said it's non canon which it is.

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kbroskywalker

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@themuser said:

@kbroskywalker: Case for blitzing? Because ragdolling seems.....unlikely to be effective when its a 6 v 1....also its not like these people aren't powerful.....some of them extremely so.

Moving faster than a non amped mace could react. Mace is a equal speeed wise to dooku, who himself was faster than kenobi. Kenobi himself has managed to deflect and dodge omnidirectional blasterfire from ten thousand droids give or take. Being faster than plagueis whose duel with Venamis was likened to lightning. Being comparable speed wise to yoda who moving no more than a milliter could easily avoid koon+ti+koon+kolar unarmed.

Because ragdolling seems.....unlikely to be effective when its a 6 v 1....also its not like these people aren't powerful.....some of them extremely so.

It being a 6 v 1 doesn't really matter here. Sidious can easily use his vastly superior speed to create space for himself and pick the team off 1 by 1. And no one here is powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by sidious. The team isn't fast enough to land any hits on him. Its simply a matter of time

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: I never said it's not legends lol. I said it's non canon which it is.

so, none of the characters on team 1 are canon either, whats your point?