Uchiha Itachi vs Gremmy Thoumeaux

R1: Itashi

R2: Gremmy

gremmy both rounds

So are we going to accept that not even reality warping is not enough to beat a naruto character man jus when you think the wank can't get any higher

Agreed, Gremmy's reality warp is on a completely different lvl, he doesn't even have to move, he can just imagine Itachi's bones are made out of cookies and Itachi can regenerate all he wants, but you still can't move with cookie bones!! Lmfao

R1: I would like to say, Itachi should win round 1 all day, even Gremmy looked at and talked to Kenpachi before the fight got serious. And in that time Itachi would have had him genjutsu'd.

R2: Is a stomp in Gremmy's favor, like a major stomp!!

dont need to

since gremmy starts his fight in his human body

so again - genjutsu gg

unless you show some tp-resistance feats from gremmy

@ratava: Gremmy is an object

Show me genjutsu working on an inanimate object

dont need to

gremmy turns himself into a human

genjutsu gg

@ratava: Yeah thanks for letting me know you don't read Bleach

Saves me the time

yep - since i totally imagined that he had a human body in his fight with kenpachi :)

but maybe you as a bleach expert got access to a special chapter where gremmy was fighting the entire time as a brain...

Itachi both rounds.

@god_vulcan: Gremmy has a body, and is a brain. That's the worst thing for him.

@ratava: @marc_55: Gremmy's body is a product of his imagination. It's real, but genjutsu won't KO him, as he is literally just a conscience

@god_vulcan: Why wouldn't it?

You guys realize Gremmy needs time to think about what he wants change before he can change it, right? A powerful long range fighter with superior speed (Like Itachi) can juts blast him before he uses his powers. They don't just automatically activate, and he clearly can't just instantly activate an effect, or else Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to get close to him.

And there's absolutely no reason to assume he has TP resistance. Is he going to start resisting Kyoka Suigetsu now? Professor Xavier's TP?

why? he imagined himself a human body and as you said its real. so if you cant proof that he imagined it with some kind of tp-resistance,

its genjutsu gg

simple as that

@marc_55: Gremmy's imagination allows him to create life. This is why he can create clones, who aren't actually clones, rather authentic copies of himself with 100% of his power. This is also why he was able to create Guanael Lee, a being who had his own personality and conscience. Guaneal had his own powers, such as intangibility and invisibility, and could attack people telepathically. Yet when things happened to Lee it didn't effect Gremmy.

Same thing when Gremmy killed himself during his fight with Kenpachi, his true form was revealed and unharmed. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say Itachi can genjutsu Gremmy, it probably wouldn't KO him either, as Gremmy has TP resistance

@god_vulcan: Guaneal doesn't have TP, and Gremmy doesn't have TP resistance. Try again.

@flashingsabre: No, but Guaneal Lee can manipulate the memories of his opponents, causing them to constantly forgot him. Gremmy imagined Lee's entire existence, so his abilities are included, meaning gremmy's imagination extends to invisibility, intangibility, and memory manipulation (TP attacks)

@marc_55: Causing other people to forgot you is a telepathic ability.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-madara-s89-vs-gremmy-gv-1875813/#37

@god_vulcan: That's not TP resistance. It's not even a TP ability. He's probably juts rewriting reality so their memories and removed.

Round 1 is debatable, evidence is that you all are debating me

But round 2 is a mismatch. Gremmy one-shots

@god_vulcan: That's not even offensive TP, just a byproduct of his invisibility. That doesn't even apply to Gremmy, since that's not an ability he has. Nor does it translate to TP resistance in any way. So, try again.

@flashingsabre: It's not TP resistance but it's a mindf*ck ability. Either way, no one has shown me that Itachi can cast genjutsu on a brain, and no one can make a case for Itachi winning round 2

Gremmy with full knowledge could warp himself out of a genjutsu and turn Itachi into a rock

@god_vulcan: You have no proof that it has anything to do with telepathy. Let alone that it provides ground for telepathic defense.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove Itachi can cast genjutsu on a brain, or if someone can make an argument for him in round 2, where Gremmy murder stomps

@flashingsabre: It's a mental ability

And Itachi has no TP resistance feats either, that doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have any. Erasing parts of your opponents memory and conscience is telepathic in every sense of the word, I don't know why you and marc keep denying it

@god_vulcan said:

@marc_55 said:

@god_vulcan: That's not even offensive TP, just a byproduct of his invisibility.

That is incredibly incorrect. Guanael Lee can erase his existence from other people's memories, that is in no way a byproduct of being invisible. That is a TP ability. I'll refresh your memory with some scans of him explaining his power:

Gallery

A more in-depth explanation of his power: (it's undeniably a TP attack)

Gallery

I don't know how you deduced that manipulating other people's memories isn't offensive TP, so it's your turn to try again.

That doesn't even apply to Gremmy, since that's not an ability he has. Nor does it translate to TP resistance in any way. So, try again.

You probably didn't check the link I posted for the Madara vs Gremmy CAV, I explained thoroughly the reason a non-jobbing Gremmy is capable of using these powers in my opener. Gremmy imagined Lee's entire existence, which includes lee's powerset, meaning extent of Gremmy's reality warping extends to intangibility, invisibility, and memory manipulation. There's no real reason why a non-jobbing Gremmy can't imagine himself with these powers, since we know he's capable of imagining them.

Problem is, none of that equates to TP defence, like you originally claimed. So, in the end, he gets shut down.

@marc_55: That's what I'm saying. Itachi has 0 TP resistance feats, but we all assume he has some because he has TP attacks. I don't know why we can't apply that logic to Lee and gremmy, and I'm not sure if it's because of bias or denial

Anyways back on topic:

Soul crush gg

@marc_55: I need some scans bc I barely remember his encounter with Kurenai

Show me scans of Itachi casting genjutsu on a brain, or any inanimate object for that matter

Show me scans or give logic that would allow Itachi to survive a soul crush

Show me anything stopping Gremmy from turning Itachi's eyes into rocks

Show me anything that stops Gremmy from BFR'ing Itachi to a pocket dimension

Stop me anything at all that stops Gremmy from one-shotting round 2

bottom line, Itachi wank needs to stop bc he's not winning here. Any non-jobbing reality warper would kill him. Literally his only chance is genjutsu, and that's why it's being debated so furiously

If Gremmy can insta-transform Itachi in a rock, why he wasn't able to do something like that with Kenpachi?

Imagine Kenpachi without his arms, Kenpachi without legs, Kenpachi turned into a snowflake. Nope. Nothing of all this.

He turned Yachiru's bones into cockies by touching her hand.

Basing on what i've read here Gremmy is impossible to defeat. If he can insta-transform everyone into a rock or a mouse or a flower then why this thread was created? No one can fight against him, right?

That's massive overstimate him

@marc_55:

Counters

Just either read the chapter when they confront him and Kisame, or Google it. I don't have any scans on hand.

I don't remember the early scenario's in part 1 that well, so I don't remember exactly how that confrontation took place. All I remember was Itachi putting Kakashi under Tsukonyomi

Don't have to, Gremmy has a body, that body has senses ties to his brain. Therefore, he gets shut down.

Having senses isn't the only requirement for genjutsu to work, and if it is, I'd like you to prove it. As far as I'm concerned, Infinite Tsukonyomi is the only genjutsu in the verse that has been shown to ignore chakra. Anyways, I'm been in far too many genjutsu debates than what's good for me, so if you wanna make that argument that having eyes is all that's needed for genjutsu to work, go ahead. But then Itachi would be one-shotting skyfathers and even universe lvl characters, and we all know how that sounds

Also, you do realize every Genjutsu affects the brain, yes?

Nope. Not a disembodied brain with no eyes or optical nerves connecting them to it. Gremmy's literally just an organ with powers, that's why I asked you to prove Itachi can cast genjutsu on an object

The fact that Gremmy hasn't even shown to capability for something like this

Except the fact that he's a Quincy, which means he has Reiatsu, which is all that's needed for soul crush to work

and that Quincy don't even utilize Reiatsu in this fashion, typically.

Incorrect. You can't "utilize" Reiatsu, it's the name for the pressure and physical force that your spiritual energy gives off, meaning Soul crush is a passive ability. Not only that, Quincy absorb Reishi from the atmosphere and combine it with there Reiryoku to manipulate it for a variety of purposes, such as forming spirit weapons and using their Schrift.

So in other words, Soul crush gg

Itachi points at him.

Gremmy thinks

Itachi glances at him.

Gremmy thinks

Either of the above 2, plus others

Gremmy thinks again. And in round 2 Gremmy will have full knowledge, meaning Genjutsu won't work on him, and even it it did he could reality warp himself out of it.

Now I'll post my argument (I'm copying and pasting what I made from another thread)

Reasons Gremmy will win

Gremmy has the ability to turn anything he imagines into fantasy, anything at all. With that in mind, here are 5 different scenarios for why he can and will beat Madara Itachi:

1. Gremmy has the ability to create life with his power. This is why his clones are 100% authentic and just as strong as he is, and why he was able to create Lee. In other words, Lee's entire existence was nothing but a product of gremmy's imagination, yet it was real. So we know the range and extent of Gremmy's imagination, and the type of powers he can think of. This means Gremmy's reality warping (imagination) is capable of-

• Complete spatial intangibility
• Complete visual invisibilty
• Can erase his existence from other's memories
• Can manipulate other people's conscience

I see no reason why a bloodlusted, non-jobbing Gremmy can't imagine himself with these powers, since we know he's capable of imagining them. That's if he really wanted to win, so in other words, Itachi can not see Gremmy, can not physically attack Gremmy, and will constantly forgot what he's doing and why he's doing it.

2. Gremmy was able to create lava instantly, and trap Kenny in a cube of water. I see no reason why Gremmy can't insantly trap Itachi in a cube of lava, killing him immeadiately

3. Gremmy was able to turn Yachiru's bones to cookies and kill two people by instantly thinking it. That means can completely bypass someone's durability and affect internal organs

I see no reason why Gremmy can't turn Itachi's entire bone structure into a cookie, completely immobilizing him. As a matter of fact, I see no reason why he can't turn his brain into a cookie the second the fight starts

4. Gremmy was able to create a pocket dimension with the characteristics of outer space, I see no reason why Gremmy can't win by enveloping Itachi in that void and leaving him there

5. Gremmy has the ability to duplicate himself, and with just 2 clones he was capable of creating a meteor potent enough to destroy Seretei. Gremmy doesn't get weaker the more clones he creates, his power doubles with each and every clone he makes. He's been shown to make 8 clones, I see no reason why Gremmy can't make 4 meteors, that would wipe out Itachi. Also, there isn't a real reason why he can't continue cloning himself, since he gets stronger every time he does.

Now before you say Gremmy can't do any of this, you must realize that he's demonstrated these powers (whether indirectly or not), and he didn't use them due to sheer PIS. Itachi's best hope is blitzing him, but Itachi doesn't have any feats putting him above MHS+, and Gremmy can react to the MHS Kenpachi so Itachi would need to be at least sub-relativistic to blitz (which he's not). But as shown through Lee, Gremmy can imagine abilities that are designed specifically to overcome his opponents reaction speed, making blitzing nigh-impossible.

Why didn't Gremmy just turn Kenpachi's bones to cookie the second the fight starts? Has he not shown the capability to do so? Why didn't Gremmy continue to clone himself, doubling his power exponentially? Why did he stop? Why didn't he just kill Kenpachi by thinking it? Why did he "imagine his body to be sturdier than steel" when he's capable of imagining beings that are invisible and intangible? He was able to kill two top fighters by imagining their deaths, and nearly killed himself by imaging he's dead, meaning Gremmy's imagination extends to death manipulation.

So before you say none of the scenario's listed are possible, just know that Gremmy won't start jobbing. And I've given 5 methods Gremmy has of instantly killing Itachi, backed by in-depth analysis and previous scans.

That is all. Good luck Marc, I haven't debated you in a long time so this will be fun

@god_vulcan:

But then Itachi would be one-shotting skyfathers and even universe lvl characters, and we all know how that sounds

That's completely absurd and irrelevant. Most characters that operate at that tier actually have TP resistance feats or some other way to deal with genjutsu. And if they don't, then too bad. Gremmy and characters from the Bleach verse don't have a way to deal with that, and your "creative" argument about Gremmy being just a brain doesn't change that. Genjutsu is just treated as low level TP around here, and Gremmy has no resistance whatsoever.

Nope. Not a disembodied brain with no eyes or optical nerves connecting them to it. Gremmy's literally just an organ with powers, that's why I asked you to prove Itachi can cast genjutsu on an object

This is also absurd. I don't know where you got this from. He has eyes, which are connected to his brain unless you care to explain how else Gremmy could possibly process what's going on around him. Any type of sensory attack that affects vision will work. Itachi genjutsus him quite easily.

So in other words, Soul crush gg

Woah, careful with arguments like that. Just gonna tweak what you said above: but then Bleach characters would be one-shotting "skyfathers and even universe lvl characters" becasuse they don't have reishi, and "we all know how that sounds." But seriously, I thought people stopped trying those lame soul crush arguments a long time ago.

Gremmy thinks again. And in round 2 Gremmy will have full knowledge, meaning Genjutsu won't work on him, and even it it did he could reality warp himself out of it.

You seem to be vastly overestimating Gremmy's "reality warping." The guy's a garbage tier reality warper who ran out of ways to beat Kenpachi. And he's not the only one with full knowledge. Itachi has it too and I'm sure he can cast a glance before Gremmy imagines himself anything useful. His imagination takes a bit of time really. That's why Kenpachi nearly killed him at one point. His imagination couldn't keep up with the damage Kenpachi was dishing out -- something about him being delayed in noticing the damage so he was delayed in recovering. I'll look for the scan later if need be. And what proof that Gremmy can undo Genjutsu on himself? He's literally never shown anything like that. Not all reality warpers are created equal. Gremmy was pretty underwhelming in his one and only showing.

And you had a lot of other stuff from your CaV that I'm tagged in, so I didn't want to address that.

Can someone actually prove to me that chakra isn't needed for genjutsu to work? I've seen that argument before, but no ones ever really proven it

Whether or not that's actually the case will change my outlook of genjutsu from here out, so it's important for me to know

@god_vulcan:

No it wasn't, I used that statement as a set up to prove my argument which followed after. You would know if you had not quoted my entire post out of context

Sorry, but a set up for what? It didn't seem relevant to the brain thing which came later. But anyway, TP is TP. The strength of the target character (Skyfather or Universal) means nothing. A character would need TP resistance feats to resist. Simple enough to counter genjutsu if a character has that, and genjutsu wouldn't even be an option against characters at that tier most of the time.

That's an assumption on your part

Not really. Characters at herald tier or above would usually have higher speed feats allowing them to blitz or they'd typically have TP resistance. If they don't and they just stand there (because of "in-character" restrictions or something), then they're susceptible to TP attacks from much slower or weaker characters. That's just how that goes.

You stating that Gremmy being a brain doesn't change it without actually proving that it doesn't won't help your case at all. Gremmy has imagined telepathic attacks before through his creation Lee (yes, manipulating other people'es memories is telepathic) and just because he hasn't resisted it doesn't mean he doesn't have TP resistance.

Yeah I'm not even sure why you're mentioning a power set that Gremmy himself has never used. You might as well just say Gremmy can imagine all of the sternritter powers and the Almighty while you're at it. It would make about as much sense imo. Gremmy can't use powers here that he's never in fact used in battle within the series.

That fact that he can use TP attacks means he should have some resistance. By that logic, Madara has zero TP resistance feats either, so even though he can use TP attacks does that mean he has no resistance to them?

Well first, same as above. Gremmy hasn't used these types of attacks himself so moot point -- he made a being with that power, but didn't use it himself. As for Madara, he has a sharingan and resisting visual based genjutsu is a standard powerset for them. But Madara isn't here in the first place; Itachi is and he reversed Kurenai's genjutsu (Chapter 141, since you were asking for that above I think) and had a genjutsu battle with Sasuke. I don't know if I would go as far as saying genjutsu resistance equals resistance to all types of TP in fiction, but some people have gone that far. I would probably just limit the sharingan to resisting illusions from other verses or something myself. I could go either way, but meh.

Same as above. But anyways I hate genjutsu debates, so even if I conceed on the topic that Itachi can genjutsu him, that will be his one and only method of winning, which is then still limited to round 1. Also I want scans stating that genjutsu only needs eyes to work

I hate those as well. You can google for genjutsu specific threads that have been made here on this site. Someone there has likely explained that better than I ever could. Also, there's something of a 'neutral universe' concept around here where we assume all characters abilities work the way they're supposed to. It's not formalized in the battle forum rules, but most people seem to accept it around here due to the complex and often unique rules that exist in various fictional verses. If there were not such a concept, more verses besides Naruto would be affected and unable to use their powers. And genjutsu works on the senses. The sharingan specifically works by eye contact. Gremmy has senses in general and eyes specifically, so genjutsu works just fine unless you're saying he has no senses or eyes.

Why do you think soul crush is so heavily restricted? Because Bleach characters would be one-shotting herald tier and sky father level characters with no soul manipulation feats, which is ridiculous.

Even "in-universe" soul crush doesn't really work that way. It's more of a "power-level" type concept really -- not actual soul manipulation. Essentially characters with stronger spirit energy or greater quantity (or whatever) can affect characters weaker than themselves. And iirc, it's possible for even characters with very little spirit energy to stand in the presence of stronger characters (Tatsuki did this iirc). Chakra is essentially the same as reishi (spirit energy), so if you wanted to go with that argument, I think you'd need to prove Gremmy's spirit is stronger than Itachi's. Even if that weren't the case, and Bleach characters could somehow one-shot stronger characters via soul crush, there's nothing innately wrong with beating stronger characters with hax. That's what hax is for; although, there are a lot of NLF accusations that tend to go around with certain types of hax on CV.

It's literally the exact same bs as genjutsu. The fact that you're calling soul crush lame but riding genjutsu looks extremely bias too. How do you think people feel about the Naruto fans only say "genjutsu gg" in every goddamn thread?

It's mostly a problem when people put genjutsu in threads against characters without TP resistance (mainly bleach verse from what I see most of the time). And yeah it's a really lazy way to debate, but it may very well be Itachi's only option in round 2, and for what it's worth, it's actually his standard go to tactic like all the time, while not necessarily true for all sharingan users like Madara who doesn't go for it right away.

I more or less agree with this entire statement

I see. You're just against genjutsu being usable altogether then? I don't really want to go there I'm afraid, but like I said, if you're interested, just go debate that aspect in one of the half dozen or more other threads in Gen Discussion on that topic.

Good to know. I was ready to rip on you for ignoring literally half my post lol

Lol. Well I suppose a lot of these issues that I already addressed came up in your CaV, but that last post came directly from there so I just decided to not pick at it directly. Anyway, i do disagree with some of that, but I wont vote based on my personal feelings, but how you and the other guy actually debate and respond to each other. Good luck!

@vermillion0831: I'll probably respond late, but great post. Very well detailed

kaguya used genjutsu on people without chakra

@ratava: that was infinite tsukonyomi, which is not only the most powerful genjutsu in the verse, but the only one that's been shown to do that; and it has too many prerequisite's to be practical in battle

Anything else?

@godren said:

Gremmy erases him from existence.

lmao

@god_vulcan: Here. This shoud be complete:

This dumb argument has to stop. It was never stated anywhere that Genjutsu works by controlling the chakra flow, what is said is that Genjutsu affects the senses to control the chakra flow not the other away around. You people are making as much sense as someone who interprets "A water-pump is something that works on electricity to control water flow" as " Water-pump controls water to work on electricity".

The other silly argument people tend to use to claim that Genjutsu works by controlling chakra is the fact that using a burst of chakra can break Genjutsu, but we have seen that certain types of Genjutsu can also be broken through pain so does this mean that Genjutsu works by controlling pain as well, as opposed to it being an effect of Genjutsu ? Obviously not...

Furthermore what those people like to conveniently forget is the fact that chakra was given to humans by the sage of six paths, the man who confessed that he didn't like the way his mother was using Genjutsu to control people and searched for ways to dispel it, so how very surprising indeed that the chakra he gave to humanity can free them from Genjutsu...

Also, you speak of the chakra pathway system but it seems that you don't know much about it. Just because Shinobi can create chakra doesn't mean that everyone and their grandmother in Naruto go around carrying a mass of chakra inside of them. It has been explained since part 1 that chakra is something Ninjas create consciously when they need to, not at all times.

^ As the above chart shows and explains, chakra is something that is consciously created for the use of Ninjutus or Genjutsu. Various showings through the series confirm this. just to use a couple :

Naruto building up chakra to use the Summoning jutsu, but getting that chakra absorbed by Kisame, conclusion : "I can't feel any chakra".

Gallery

Tobirama discussing the village's future with Hashirama, but not realizing that Madara was spying on them, reason : "I'm not kneading any chakra"

A more practical display of this comes from the Byakugan vision. For instance.

Neji's body while not using chakra and when using chakra :

Kidomaru's chakra network when preparing to use a jutsu :

^Notice how chakra only flows through the parts related to the jutsu.

And yet you people insist that Genjutsu can only work on chakra, even though we have seen Kabuto and Itachi Genjutsu fodder villagers... so tell me why would the villagers and some random woman, who for all we know were not even trained to create chakra in the first place, be creating chakra and having it flow through their heads for no apparent reason whatsoever, just so Itachi and Kabuto can use it to genjutsu them ? The answer is that they weren't, and Genjutsu does not need chakra to work.

Can we stop twisting statements now ?

• 2: Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu. Kaguya put the world in a massive Genjutsu, before chakra creation. Saying "it was the strongest Genjutsu so nope. Still Genjutsu can't affect people without chakra 'cause only Inf. Tsukuyomi can" it's very very hilarious. That's a Genjutsu, end of story.
  
  
• 3: Another example is in the Itachi's light novel. On, i believe, page 30, Itachi was talking to Shisui, and Shisui explains that occular Genjutsu and Genjutsu like it can affect anyone because it doesn't disrupt chakra like other basic Genjutsu.
  He explains that Genjutsu affect the nervous system and mind itself and fills the gap by pouring their own chakra as a medium.
  

it's actually happening again.....

@westwood_trevor: Which Itachi novel? Midnight or Daylight? I assumed Midnight but when I skimmed through it, I couldn't find what Shisui was referring to, unless I got the page number wrong.

@god_vulcan

Having senses isn't the only requirement for genjutsu to work, and if it is, I'd like you to prove it.

If Jiraiya's quote isn't enough to convince you, another quote by another character saying the exact same thing should work:

As for Itachi's TP defenses against Kurenai:

Gallery

@westwood_trevor: @thevivas: Thanks for the scans. I'm convinced now

Are there any counters for soul crush?