only h2h, no ki blasts
round 1) no fruit for turles; 8 gates has it's standard time limit
round 2) turles has access to the fruit; 8 gates is unlimited for guy
only h2h, no ki blasts
round 1) no fruit for turles; 8 gates has it's standard time limit
round 2) turles has access to the fruit; 8 gates is unlimited for guy
Turles stomps.
r/CharacterRant
u/ikeribusx4y
[DBZ] Split Durability - Strikes and Blasts.. lets do this.
Explanation
Split Durability - Strikes vs Blasts
According to Chozenshu 1
What are the requirements for becoming strong?
There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.
According to this Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide the key to winning a battle is the size of your ki.
What is the key to winning in battle?
In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your check over it. Ki as a concept of course includes spiritual powers such as energy [Genki] courage [Yūki], and right-mindedness [Shoki] 11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki.
As stated above the higher the ki.. the stronger the person, we have a quote from Goku explaining that when your ki is multiplied.. then so are all your attributes. DBZ Volume 3: Page 147 through 150:
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-ken. By controlling all of the energy [Ki] within your body, you can momentarily amplify it. If you do it right, your speed, power, destructive and defensive forces all increase many times over.”
Goku: “[But] If I don’t restrain my Ki just right while I’m controlling it, I could kill myself. In short…”
What is my point you might be asking yourself? If there is a physical limit to your body, and everything beyond that limit requires ki to strengthen, then it's reasonable to assume that during every battle the warriors are all strengthening their abilities with their own reservoir of ki. If they all use the same pool of ki to draw strength, then its just a matter of how much of that pool they use for any given strike or ki blast at the time.
You and many others may argue that they have weak physical attacks and defense, yet we have examples that show otherwise.
In this example we have Vegeta dominating Cell with his strikes because he has a deeper pool of ki than Cell, which means he is able to utilize more ki to strike than Cell is able to use to defend. Later when Cell transforms into something more powerful, thus gaining a deeper pool of Ki, Vegeta's strikes no longer affect him since he isn't able to over power the Ki that Cell is using to defend. I'd like to preemptively strike against an argument you may use with this example, the Final Flash does not fall under the same category as a normal ki attack or strike, as it raises the users ability far beyond what they are normally capable of. Let's move on to when Gohan transforms. This transformation gained him a deeper pool of ki, which then allows him to utilize more ki to strike Cell, since he is able to over power Cell's defensive ki. I'd like to branch off a moment and refer to the Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary and point out:
Kamehameha
Special Characteristics: It is a technique that condenses ki into one point and then fires it. The technique’s force changes based on the strength of its user’s ki, and if mastered it also becomes possible to control its force.
This is a specialized technique that manipulates Ki a certain way to increase it's power and fire it all at once, just as with Final Flash, this does not fall under the topic I am talking about. However, this is exactly what I am talking about. This single strike caused more damage to Cell than even the previous Kamehameha.
We also have the example of the Cell Jrs proving to be more than a match for the other Saiyans, but due to Gohan's larger reserve of ki, was able to pour more ki into his strikes in order to destroy them.
In this scan we see how Tien's strongest move, Kikoho (Tri-Beam), is used to amplify is power many times than what is should naturally be. We also see him use it against Nappa with little effect. This is because even with his pool of ki being drained to the point of death, he could not amplify his power to overcome Nappa's active defense. Tien with his Kikoho is indisputably capable of destroying a moon or greater and it was tanked by Nappa, yet we have a strike that causes more damage in a single blow. At this point I don't see how someone could argue that Nappa had higher resistance to a Ki attack when he was felled by a strike. Besides this point I've already explained that the pool of ki that is used for a blast is also used to bolster their striking abilities. One might argue that this strike was empowered with Kaio-ken, but I'd ask that some person why does it matter? It still shows that the deeper or greater pool of ki that you have, then the greater your striking ability becomes. The previous scan shows Goku deflecting Nappa's ultimate technique, yet such an ultimate technique would never be able to inflict the same amount of damage that Goku was able to with strikes against Vegeta. In fact, Goku's strikes were so damaging and overwhelming that Vegeta had to rely on his Gyarik-ho Gyarik Cannon as his only resort to beat Goku, something that is stated to be exactly like the Kamehameha, it concentrates ki into a specific point which increases ones Ki past what they are normally capable of.
Gyarik-ho [Gyarik Cannon]
Special Characteristics: Vegeta’s version of the Kamehameha. The difference between it and the Kamehameha is the hand position when shooting out the ki. He thrusts out the palms of his hand towards his opponent, and fires it as if pushing out the ki. The ki put out from the two palms then becomes a single powerful current.(Daizenshuu 2, p.211)
I feel like the misunderstanding of ki stems from people thinking a blast is actually something entirely different than a strike, when in reality it isn't. They can pretty much do whatever they want with ki. A ki blast is just them projecting ki at range from their already existing pool of ki, but there is no reason they can't use that same pool of ki to empower their strikes. The origin of where its projected from, be it mouth, or eyes doesn't matter much. They can use ki for defense or something as weird as boosting the volume of their voice even to ridiculous points of ripping dimensional holes.
I can understand why people think there is a difference in durability, the lack of hard feats makes it a challenge to explain how striking works in DB without doing a giant post like this. In context though having a "planetary" Frieza getting cut in half because of "bad physical durability" and then immediately afterwards see that durability is ki related makes me not understand why the argument even existed. [1] [2]
A lot of reason people like to say that ki blasts are above strikes is because ki blasts are utilized more, obviously because they have their own advantages vs a strike. You can manipulate a blast to do things you cant do with a strike.
Nappa was told to avoid the Descruto Disc because of its cutting properties, not because it had more ki. Obviously Krillin can't hurt Nappa with a ki infused strike, because his pool of ki wasn't deep enough. This is because most specialized ki blasts are manipulated to do certain things, and often the specialized blast is of higher power than the power level of the user.
It's really not that normal ki blasts are stronger than a strike, its just that they are extremely more useful and versatile. Everyone uses a different ki attack to accomplish something a normal strike couldn't do, such as concentrating a beam to pierce a specific spot.. These don't always work though, as the person with a higher ki pool has higher durability.
I guess the argument still stands that they have "horrible physical defense" but that hardly matters when their physical defense is bolstered by ki, as well as their strikes also being bolstered
Turles stomps
his punches and kicks also carry his own ki, KI Blast/named techniques are just a way to increase KI power and add attributes which is why Goku goes from 400 to semi 1,000 vs Raditz or how piccolo went from 400 to 1300 with special beam canon.
Turles in base has a PL of 19,000 making him slightly stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, and 300,000 PL after eating Fruit.
still surprise in this day and age western audience still does not understand how Ki/Qi or internal energy works, people still treat these characters like their power comes from their own muscles and body.
removing Ki Blast only decreases the range and over limit of DBZ fighters, it does not hinder their power in any way shape or form.
@raziel2014: since this toei movies turles also scales to dwarf star due to Vegeta and King Vegeta feats.
Depends on how you think durability works in dragon ball, but Guy hits harder out of the two.
Turles blitzes
He is slower, so no.
@alextheboss: turles one shots
Turles without the fruit is hard to scale to.
With the fruit I'm pretty sure he stomps. He stomped KKx10 Goku.
@alextheboss: Turles is part of the anime. Hes stronger than king vegeta who could destroy a planet and 2 moons with a wave of his hand.
His power level is 19,000 without the fruit id say very much so. Guy is relativistic at best
@alextheboss: Turles is part of the anime. Hes stronger than king vegeta who could destroy a planet and 2 moons with a wave of his hand.
I don't think the movies are canon to the anime. I think they take place in the GT timeline.
@takenstew22: The movies are anime like the filler
@takenstew22: GT is its own thing. The movies are anime like the filler
But I'm sure they aren't canon to either the anime or manga.
@takenstew22: In the anime Pikkon fought Goku and lost in fusion reborn Pikkon remembers Goku and says it will be different this time.
youtube
dragon ball z fusion reborn 2nd otherworld tournament skip to 1:40.
You are right GT is canon to the anime
@Knowledge_King: Guy gets oneshotted
Filler DBZ wrecks tbh Goku and his evil twin lookalike should be large planet to dwarf star at this point
@Knowledge_King: Guy gets oneshotted
Not physically. Turles is much weaker and slower.
@Knowledge_King: turles one shots.
@Knowledge_King: Guy gets oneshotted
Not physically. Turles is much weaker and slower.
again you fail to understand how the power of DBZ even works, all fighters fight with Ki so their punches are no different than a Ki Blast which scales to their own Power level, Turles is much stronger physically than Gai as he scales to 19,000 PL which even at min is even with PIS Piccolo moon feat is still Multi Continental+
R2 turles pl is over 300,000 which is easily Large Planet due to Frieza.
@raziel2014: you didn't have to downplay that far. Turles scales to dwarf star from king vegeta and vegeta feats.
@Knowledge_King: Guy gets oneshotted
Not physically. Turles is much weaker and slower.
again you fail to understand how the power of DBZ even works, all fighters fight with Ki so their punches are no different than a Ki Blast which scales to their own Power level, Turles is much stronger physically than Gai as he scales to 19,000 PL which even at min is even with PIS Piccolo moon feat is still Multi Continental+
R2 turles pl is over 300,000 which is easily Large Planet due to Frieza.
This us flat out not true. Proven many times. Pretty much every hit is far below planet level. Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, etc. all struggled with a steel door in the Android Saga. Goku struggled with 40 tons. SSJ Vegeta struggled with 1000 tons, and so on.
It's never ever been that way that ki and physical is the same.
@Knowledge_King: turles one shots.
Nah. Too slow and weak. He gets oneshotted however.
@Knowledge_King: turles still one shots
@Knowledge_King: turles still one shots
Nope.
@Knowledge_King: Turles still one shots
@Knowledge_King: Turles still one shots
Nah.
@Knowledge_King: yes.
No.
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