Who wins? The all-powerful nightmarish horror that exists beyond the deepest reaches of dimensions that vastly transcend the entirety of the Multiverse and the concept of physicality and concepts itself beyond that of even the highest tips of imagination itself, or that robot that was hurt by the heat of 10 billion suns?
Superman wrecks this clown. Pennywise was beaten by kids.
Do you even know what True Form Pennywise is capable of? He didn't even use his true form for the simple fact that he would destroy all of creation and his food. His true self transcends the dimension Maturin resides in, which spirals beyond the farthest reaches of human imagination and the Multiverse as a whole, and like I said, Pennywise transcends EVEN THAT. That's just tipping the surface.
Superman wrecks this clown. Pennywise was beaten by kids.
With that logic you could say that Base Superman stomps Trigon because Trigon was beaten by kids. And don't give me that "those kids had powers". The kids that beat IT were amped by the literal creator of the Stephen King verse (Gan) in order to beat IT.
I'm confident you know nothing about how powerful True Form Pennywise is. People just assume he's street level because he lost to kids without even knowing the details of HOW he lost. Plus, they didn't even defeat his true self, they just mentally willed his connection away from the dimension, and even then, it's implied heavily IT still survived even that.
@alonis3612 Lol look at this, people are just assuming that at the very least a Complex Multiversal character is Street level because he lost to children. The CAS wank is still legendary.
@manofmanynames2: Once again, show me specifically where I stated what you accused me of.
Quit assuming I actually agree with that shitty faulty statement when it differs greatly from everything else shown about CAS. (Right before that, it literally says the blood of 52 universes; not to mention, limbo is only the size of TR's finger while that attack from mandraak was far bigger than that which means that it's far stronger than "hurr mah 10 billion suns durr"
Your compensation needs work; me saying "still won't stop him from crapping on pennywise buddy😁😁😁" was just me bypassing that statement all together. Notice how I didn't specifically address that anti feat until now?
Where does it say that the heat is metaphysical? It's literally just heat, there's no evidence to suggest that it isn't just pure heat. The blood of 52 Universes has nothing to do with that statement.
@manofmanynames2: Once again, show me specifically where I stated what you accused me of.
Quit assuming I actually agree with that shitty faulty statement when it differs greatly from everything else shown about CAS. (Right before that, it literally says the blood of 52 universes; not to mention, limbo is only the size of TR's finger while that attack from mandraak was far bigger than that which means that it's far stronger than "hurr mah 10 billion suns durr"
Your compensation needs work; me saying "still won't stop him from crapping on pennywise buddy😁😁😁" was just me bypassing that statement all together. Notice how I didn't specifically address that anti feat until now?
The Monitors, CAS, Mandrakk, as well as Nil itself, are all made of thought. However, there is no evidence that the "thought material" conceptually or qualitatively transcends regular matter and energy.
While it's true that the Monitor Sphere is a bigger dimension than the Sphere of Gods, Limbo and the material multiverse (The Orrery of Worlds), this doesn't mean that it transcends them qualitatively, let alone that beings from Nil do.
It is widely assumed, based on this particular scan, that Nil conceptually transcends regular physics, matter and energy, because "form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid":
A lot of people believe this means that "meaning, form, matter and energy and everything else is destroyed when it gets to Nil". However, this statement seems vague in it's intended meaning, especially since it does not really make any sense if we accept that the previously mentioned definition/explanation of the said scan, is what the author actually meant.
For instance, how can "meaning" get disintegrated when virtually everything has it? Even Monitors and CAS have some kind of meaning.
This is further contradicted by other statements from CAS.
Once CAS awakes, he notes that scale, space and time are "more MEANINGFUL". Something is more meaningful in a place where meaning cannot exist? Nonsense.
Next, CAS says that Monitors are "primal FORMS". Primal forms in a place where forms cannot exist? More nonsense.
Furthermore, notion that "matter and energy and physics cannot exist in Nil" is literally debunked by the same comic book.
Here CAS notes that "the drifting smoke of galaxies, the veils of matter part and clear", which in other words means that matter has covered the eyelids of CAS until he opened his eyes, thus as if "shaking off dust", dust in this case being matter. Hence a confirmation that matter can exist in the Monitor Sphere:
Moreover, Bleed, which is essentially a higher-dimensional space, can exist in Nil:
And finally, literally EVERYTHING can exist in Nil. The whole multiverse, full of matter, energy, space, time, and characters, all are not destroyed when they are in Nil:
Since anything and everything material can exist in Nil, this completely debunks any notion that it cannot or does not exist there.
Some people also like to claim that the aforementioned myth is true because Nil supposedly transcends Limbo which also supposedly transcends matter and energy. Except that the same debunk goes for Limbo as well. There is no evidence that Nil transcends Limbo, which in its turn conceptually or qualitatively transcends matter, but there is evidence that matter and energy can indeed exist within Limbo.
According to the Multiversity Map, matter breaks down in Limbo, and according to the Quantum Superman, there is no matter in Limbo:
Except that just because matter doesn't exist in Limbo naturally and breaks down there, this doesn't mean that Limbo conceptually or qualitatively transcends matter, this could just be due to the special nature of the dimension. And this certainly doesn't mean that matter and energy CANNOT EXIST in Limbo, if introduced to the system.
For instance, as you could see from the scan above, Superman and Ultraman, made of matter and anti-matter respectively, can exist there. Moreover, both Ultraman (heat vision) and the Quantum Superman (the energy from collision of Superman and Ultraman) have proven that energy can exist in Limbo:
Therefore, as explained above, neither Nil nor Limbo qualitatively/conceptually transcend matter and energy and regular physics, each of which was also proven to exist in these realms.
Conclusion: Neither Nil or Limbo conceptually or qualitatively transcend anything, since there is no evidence for such a claim.
Myth #3: "Monitors are platonic, or even transcend the platonic concepts, they have powers beyond all imagination and thus are stronger than 5th-dimensional Imps, the New Gods and any other fictional race"
There is no evidence that Monitors are stronger than the New Gods and any other fictional race. In fact, New Gods and a lot of lot of other fictional races have far better feats than Monitors, who are actually nearly featless.
Monitors are also not platonic, because platonic concepts are invisible, unchangeable, infinite and eternal, whereas Monitors don't meet any of these criteria.
And while it's true that Monitors were stated or suggested to have powers and abilities beyond imagination, like here:
"Beyond all imagination" could be a hyperbole, especially when considering the other stuff that is known about the Monitors. But even if one wants to highball Monitors to beyond all imagination level, then in that case they will still not be above the likes of Marvel Wrecker:
@manofmanynames2: Once again, show me specifically where I stated what you accused me of.
Quit assuming I actually agree with that shitty faulty statement when it differs greatly from everything else shown about CAS. (Right before that, it literally says the blood of 52 universes; not to mention, limbo is only the size of TR's finger while that attack from mandraak was far bigger than that which means that it's far stronger than "hurr mah 10 billion suns durr"
Your compensation needs work; me saying "still won't stop him from crapping on pennywise buddy😁😁😁" was just me bypassing that statement all together. Notice how I didn't specifically address that anti feat until now?
The heat of 10 billion suns? Nothing implies it is a metaphor or a hyperbole. At most, it could be considered to be a hyperbole if one compares it to the other feats that Monitors have, and in that case the heat of 10 billion suns would literally be a high-end outlier. The blood of 52 universes is likely a kind-of metaphor, though, which references the Bleed. Bleed is not a universe, nor is it 52 universes. They are completely different concepts. So the heat of 10 billion suns, as just the energy of Mandrakk's attack that is based on the power he got from Bleed, makes perfect sense.
Not heat? No evidence for this. Mandrakk clearly states that IT IS HEAT. The heat of the suns.
PIS? Both Mandrakk and CAS lack the feats to even suggest that it is PIS.
CAS cannot be harmed by the heat of the suns? There is no evidence for such a claim, in fact, there CAS is, getting hurt by that kind of energy.
Moreover, CAS is not Superman, so just because Superman normally gets stronger from sunlight, it doesn't mean that CAS also does. Mandrakk also says, "the heat", heat is not the same as sunlight in general. Heat is a certain range of radiation and energy. We know that Superman is not invulnerable to all types of heat or energy. For instance:
So.. the heat of 10 billion suns.. how much power is that?
The basis for the calculation of the most likely interpretation would be the energy produced by the sun, per second. The combined energy produced by a sun over the whole course of its life, seems less believable by what is meant by "the heat of suns". Let's take our Sun as the average star.
Energy produced by the sun per second: 3.846 × 10^26 Joules
The math: (3.846×10^26 Joules) × (10^10) =3.9 × 10^36 J/sec
Energy required to destroy the Earth: 2 × 10^32 Joules | 10 billion suns can destroy = 19,500 Earths
Energy required to destroy the Sun: 2.3 × 10^41 Joules | 10 billion suns cannot destroy the Sun. The attack has 60,000 times less energy than is required to destroy the Sun.
Energy released during a supernova/lifetime energy output of the sun: 1.2 × 10^44 Joules | 10 billion suns have 30,800,000 times less energy than that.
For those who don't want to accept the numbers above and want to believe that the heat of 10 billion suns is supposed to mean "the total amount of energy released by 10 billion suns throughout their whole life", then here is a little more math:
Total mass-energy of the Milky Way galaxy: 10^59 Joules | The maximum possible combined heat of 10 billion suns = 83,333 times less than the amount of energy contained within the Milky Way galaxy.
Conclusion: With or without highballing, CAS and Mandrakk are far, far below galaxy level.
@manofmanynames2 Isn't the quote "beyond all imagination" referencing the fifth dimension? That would imply that the Monitors are above Mxy and the imps.
@manofmanynames2 Isn't the quote "beyond all imagination" referencing the fifth dimension? That would imply that the Monitors are above Mxy and the imps.
There's nothing in the story to even remotely suggest that that is the case. Imagination doesn't automatically refer to the 5th dimension.
Like I said, saying the word Imagination does not always have to refer to the 5th dimension, and since there is no evidence in Final Crisis to support that claim, we can't be certain.
@manofmanynames2: what do you mean the blood of 52 universe has nothing to do with that statement? They're in the same thought bubble, one directly after another.
@manofmanynames2: so you get to pick and choose what's connected or not when they're both being use to describe the attack? GTFO kid
Dude, the heat of 10 billion suns and the blood of 52 Universes have nothing to do with each other, the definitions are two different things entirely, heat and "Universes' blood" are completely unrelated, and if anything the blood = the heat.
@manofmanynames2: you can't even tell what "wank" is...I saw you arguing in another thread that hyperion of all peopleis universal + but then go on to acknowledge that a normal hulk managed to make him bleed...as I've been saying; YOUR COMPREHENSION IS SEVERELY LACKING!
You still fail to tell me how the concept of Heat relates to the Blood of Universes.
And I didn't say that Hyperion can destroy Universes, rather survive them, but I admit, I'm pretty sure I am wrong on that one. I still fail to see how Worldbreaker Hulk only stands at Planet level+.
@manofmanynames2 Mar Novu split himself into 52 pieces, so Mandrakk being the strongest of those piece should be far above galaxy level.
Each of those 52 pieces are Universes, no? So you're saying that Mandrakk is at least Universal+. I mean, I can kind of see that, but I fail to see how their durability scales to their AP.
@manofmanynames2 What I was trying to say was that Mar Novu was equal or just slightly below COIE Anti Monitor, so his pieces should be above galaxy level unlike what you said before.
Mxy has also admitted inferiority to 6th dimensional beings before.
This Pennywise exists outside Exists outside of the Dark Tower in a void beyond that which Maturin resides in; Maturin himself exists in a void which lacks physicality/direction and predates both the concept of time and the multiverse's existence as a whole and the Dark Tower Multiverse is DC/Marvel level sooooooo
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