TROS Sidious vs Starkiller

@crushyourenemies:

Sidious rematches the man who stomped both him and Vader

Last time I checked Palpatine beat Starkiller in both endings...

Palpatine wins. Starkiller can't stop his lightning, and if Palpatine really lifted the star destroyers at the beginning of the movie, that feat dwarf's Galen's.

Hmmmm in force power they are about equal, but in sabers, Starkiller would win seeing as one of these people are restrained to a chair.

So overall, Starkiller wins 9/10.

Sidious

Assuming Sidious didn't lift all the Star Destroyers, Star-killer prob kills him before he resorts to lightning

If Palpatine pulls out those Death-star-level-Star-Destroyer-busting Force Lightning attacks, then I guess he could win.

But realistically Starkiller has every advantage here.

@alextheboss: In the Canon ending, He beat Starkiller as Galen abandoned his own safety to protect his friends.

And Palps only did that after getting ragdolled by Marek.

@richard96: bUt He PuLlEd A sTaR dEsTrOyEr FrOm OrBiT

Starkiller fought Legends Vader and Sidious.

He stomps canon.

Okay, but Sidious was able to TK lift 10,000 star destroyers in canon.

What TK feat does Legends Sidious and vader have that equals that?

@mygod000: Legends Sidious was capable of wiping out whole star fleets with a flick of his hands.

Palps didn’t lift squat, until it’s actually confirmed and not some vague scene, no he doesn’t have that level of TK.

Palps' lightning and telekinesis don't mean shit when Starkiller can close the gap and stab him to death before he can ever make any use of them.

@godgate: That was DE Sidious who was on a whole different level compared to TFU Sidious

Dead Sidious was able to TK Lift fleet of 10,000 Star destroyers while being Weaker than ROTS Sidious.

@jmarshmallow: There is no canon ending since the whole game isn't canon. Starkiller force clashed with Palpatine and died while Palpatine was completely fine. It was completely fair, and Palpatine was clearly more powerful. Starkiller's only advantage was his lightsabers.

If zombie Sidious is weaker than ROTS Sidious then that's absurd. Obi Wan and Anakin with just being 1% of power of Sidious should at least lift 1 Star destroyers and that is absurd unless that Sidious and Yoda were god level compared to the rest...

You people need confirmation when he literally lifts his hands and the entire fleet rises at the same time ? Hes strong enough to destroy an entire fleet but cant lift it... Yea makes complete sense

And if you are extremely powerful in the force you will be extremely powerful in every single area. It's an all or nothing deal. His physical body sure but his force powers were at it's most powerful.

It's not. It literally rises to the sky during that scene and is there until the end of the movie theres nothing ambiguous about it. They could show the fleet without it rising to the sky though

@richard96:

> I am really tired of the usual SK wank. Palps was just testing SK.

That is just a fan theory which has gotten passed around as fact way too much. There is no evidence, in the game or novel, that Palps wasn't giving his all.

> His clone, which was confirmed to be more powerful than the original one,

Confirmed? By who? Last I checked the closest that the game came to confirming that was the Ultimate Visual Guide saying that the clone "possessed Galen's fighting ability." But that alone definitely doesn't confirm that the clone is more powerful.

If you have anything else, please provide it.

> couldn’t beat a largely pre prime Vader without cheating and got ragdolled by Vader.

Which really negates your point above, since Galen clowned Vader in TFU1. And besides, if your argument is Palpatine being the one that was "toying" with him, what does Vader have to do with this? Unless you're saying that Vader was toying with him in TFU1, which wouldn't make any sense given the plot.

So I don't see how Vader fits in here.

> Not to mention, in the DS ending sidious clowns Galen. Even if the events of the DS ending aren’t canon, the characters are the same, and Matt Martin stated that it’s an accurate depiction of how events would take place. SK didn’t beat a full out Palpatine, brain around this.

The whole plot of all of SW is that your emotional state and position on the Light/Dark Side of the Force contributes heavily to how powerful you are in the moment. That's why Anakin lost to Obi-wan despite obviously being more powerful.

In the DS ending, Galen's emotional state was super unstable, and he didn't have a solid grasp on the Light OR Dark side. So yeah, of course he gets beat by Sidious.

And again, it's not Canon.

@alextheboss:

> There is no canon ending since the whole game isn't canon.

That's not how Canon works.

There is a canon ending to the series, even if the series isn't canon to the SW Universe any more.

Legends SW exists for a reason.

> Starkiller force clashed with Palpatine and died while Palpatine was completely fine.

Nah, Galen jumped in front of Palpatine's lightning to protect his friends. They didn't "force clash" as that would imply that Galen was shooting lightning back.

> It was completely fair,

He zapped a blind man while his back was turned, and then Galen jumped in front of it instead of just swinging on Palps because he wanted to protect his friend.

That's not even close to fair.

> and Palpatine was clearly more powerful.

Palpatine lost before that. So no, he clearly isn't.

> Starkiller's only advantage was his lightsabers.

An advantage he clearly still has here, as canon Palps is definitely worse at lightsaber dueling than Legends Palps.

@richard96:

> The evidence is what I already given you. Your refusal to accept it won’t change things.

You've given me zero evidence.

> And in the novel, which takes precedence over the game,

The book is based off the game. So while typically Books take priority over games in SW canon, the book was very clearly the supporting canon of the two. I'm sure youll fight me on this, and that's fine, but even then the game is still canon to the series (obviously). Both can be used when referring to SK, unless OP says otherwise.

> the didn’t even had a real fight. Galen threw some things at Sidious and Sidious encouraged him to strike him down to convert him to the DS. And Galen was in a oneness state during the lighting clash.

I'd ask you to post the fight excerpt.

> Stated by Sean Williams, who wrote the TFU II novel.

Ah. Fair point, I remember that, but an offhand comment made by the novel writer isn't WOG. He didn't create the character of Starkiller, so his word isn't canon. Worth noting, to be fair.

> Even if the clone was on par with the original one, he still STRUGGLED with a pre prime Vader. ANH Vader lost to TPM Maul, lol.

1). That was a clone.

2). Vader didn't use the Force like at all in that fight.

3). Vader won.

> Galen bested an overconfident and pre prime Vader in TFU I.

Nah. Prime Vader is the SW Rebels period, which is when TFU1 and 2 also take place. There's nothing to suggest he's not in his prime during both games, there's only a 6 month difference between them.

> This doesn’t change the fact that his superior clone struggled and had to cheat against TFU II Vader.

Cheating? Like blasting someone with lightning while they're not looking?

> Nothing states that Vader didn’t improve by the time of TFU II,

Nothing states that he did either. And you'd have to prove he did, the burden of proof is in you.

> since it was even stated that his suit improved and was more resistant to lighting and he fought more cautiously.

Suit improvement =/= skill improvement

> But TFU II Vader is still miles below palps.

Miles behind is dramatic. Prime Vader is stated to be about 80% behind Palps.

80% is not miles behind.

> Point is, a superior Galen struggled with TFU II Vader, that is basically a previous version of a guy who lost to TPM Maul.

I have addressed all these points individually, so I'll keep it moving.

> And you are telling me that TFU I Galen, that is weaker than his clone, legitimately beat Sidious? LOL.

Yes.

“The whole plot of all of SW is that your emotional state and position on the Light/Dark Side of the Force contributes heavily to how powerful you are in the moment. That's why Anakin lost to Obi-wan despite obviously being more powerful.”

Anakin lost to Obi-wan thanks to his mental hindrance AND a lot of other circumstances (in legends). A mentally hindered anakin was still better than kenobi who got driven back for the entire fight and had to exploit the environment. But I won’t to spend time more on this, that it’s irrelevant for what we are discussing.

> Here, this is a real fan theory. There is nothing stating Galen emotional state was unstable in the DS ending, simply he chose to kill both Vader and Sidious. And a mental unbalance wouldn’t still justify Galen passing from a Sidious+ opponent to a ragdolling fodder for sidious. It’s still your speculation. On the contrary, he was arguably rage amped.

Rage amped is not a real amp for SK. Sidious did not ragdoll him.

And sure, you can call it a fan theory if you'd like.

But if we're only using direct feats, and not common sense, then the clear, direct feat is that Galen beat Palps in 1v1 combat.

End of story.

> But Matt Martin stated it depicts accurately what happened if Galen chose it. Hence it doesn’t matter if it’s canon or not. This, plus the fact a superior version of Galen struggled with TFU II Vader who is miles and miles below Sidious cements the fact that Galen NEVER challenged Sidious, not even in his wildest dreams. Period.

Of course it matters. Non-canon is non-canon. It can't be used. Period.

That 20% quote was talking about Vader at the end of ROTS After he was injured. Before his lost to Obi-wan Vader was stated by all sources to be above ROTS Sidious.

Vader at the end of ROTS was only 80% of ROTS Sidious, which isn't want Sidious wanted, He wanted someone more powerful than then him which Anakin was. This was George Lucas Statements.

About the Maul fight that was only a Light saber duel...and Vader has Ragdolled people with the force who he struggled with in light saber duels before as well.

as we established Vader is a far more powerful force wielder than he is a light saber duelist, he didn't start getting back good at light saber dueling until ESB and ROTJ where it is stated to be him at his strongest ever which means ROTJ Vader>MF Vader>=ROTS Sidious.

Everything else you said about Star killer I personally agree that he isn't on Vaders levels, as a matter of fact in TFU 2 it stated star killer+all the collective powers of the clones is more than enough to Beat TFU Vader pretty easily. We later at the end of the Game See Vader Solo a stronger Star Killer and all the Clones at once.

like I said i agree with your points about Star killer being no match for vader that was actually stated by outside sources, and Sam Witwer had been talking with the developers of the game who was telling him Vader is way too powerful for Star killer

>Starkiller barely pulls down a Star Destroyer

>Palpatine casually lifts an entire fleet of Star Destroyers

@jmarshmallow:

That's not how Canon works.

There is a canon ending to the series, even if the series isn't canon to the SW Universe any more.

Legends SW exists for a reason.

I understand what you are saying, but by that same logic the dark side ending is canon to the DLC.

Nah, Galen jumped in front of Palpatine's lightning to protect his friends. They didn't "force clash" as that would imply that Galen was shooting lightning back.

He was doing the same thing Yoda did, but Yoda almost overpowered Palpatine and didn't die.

He zapped a blind man while his back was turned, and then Galen jumped in front of it instead of just swinging on Palps because he wanted to protect his friend.

That's not even close to fair.

I would agree if Galen just jumped in front if it and cot hit, but he jumped in front of it and stopped the lightning. He could have then used force push or shot out lightning of his own in that position.

Palpatine lost before that. So no, he clearly isn't.

He may have been faking it, and Galen had a lightsaber while Palpatine was unarmed. So at best Galen is better than unarmed Palpatine.

as canon Palps is definitely worse at lightsaber dueling than Legends Palps.

Don't see why that matters here since they are both better than Galen at lightsaber dueling, unless you can show me Galen casually one shoting council members or beating the likes of Maul and Savage at the same time.

@alextheboss: Galen beat Vader in a duel and therefore that puts him above 90% of the Jedi council in terms of dueling skill and I'm pretty sure he can win a 2v1 between him, Maul,and Savage.

@godgate: Legends Vader was only a Maul tier duelist.

@alextheboss: Maul was still a top tier duelist though, on par with Obi-wan.

@godgate: Yes I know. I’m just saying Galen being able to beat Vader after a hard fought fight doesn’t meant he can beat Maul and Savage like Sidious did. At least not as easy as he did it.

@alextheboss: I feel like TFU 2 Galen would be able to do it easily though as he was far more powerful than he was in TFU since he was capable of pulling off his previous greatest feat casually when shielded that ship's fall onto kamino. His fight with Vader also proves this since in TFU's novelization, he had to win by playing smart while here, he was exhausted and still won through brute force alone.

He overpowered 2 of the strongest force users in all of SW. He wasmt weak with the force because the movie directly contradicts that

Doesnt need to hold it there for the entire movie he lifted it in the first place. So a fleet all suddenly rose to the sky simultaneously while a sith lord is talking about it ? Can you prove ROTS sidious couldnt lift the fleet ?

Physically ,theres nothing to suggest he was any weaker in the force

The force is unique to every individual. Also let's not forget he came back from the dead Darth Sion style plenty of stuff happened in the ST that didnt happen in the prequels

You're using a statement that wasnt even in shown in the movie. That's your entire defense even though Sidious was still powerful with the force

Vader completely dominated Cal Kestis with TK and everything he threw with ease. Tk is Tk yes but everyone doesn't have the same power with it which is my point. Sidious was also using lightning the moment the fleet rose. We can agree to disagree until confirmation

Starkiller wank makes me want to remove my own cornea, Palpatine stomps.

Likely Starkiller due to speed differential and a negligible gap in power either way.

Based on?