Trio of Marksmen vs Team Arrowverse

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the_magister

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#1  Edited By the_magister
Frank Castle, John Wick, Grant Ward
Frank Castle, John Wick, Grant Ward

VS

Oliver Queen
Oliver Queen
Slade Wilson
Slade Wilson
John Diggle
John Diggle

Stipulations:

  • Wick gets a pistol of his choosing, Frank gets a pistol of his choosing, Ward gets two pistols of his choosing... standard kevlar body armor for all
  • Slade gets two pistols of his choosing, Diggle gets a pistol of his choosing, Oliver gets his bow with regular arrows... standard kevlar body armor for all
  • Teams start 20 feet apart in a warehouse with ample cover
  • Morals off, perfect teamwork

Who wins?

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subline

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The Trio of Marksmen have got this for sure, much better draw speed as a whole.

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SupremeSoup

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Trio obv

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Slade-Prime

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The marksmen trio headshots.

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AllStarSuperman

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Arrow team is way better honestly

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PaulPogba

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RBT

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The fact that everyone on team 2 has better accuracy feats than everyone on 'Marksmen' team is hilarious.

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blackspidey2099

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#9  Edited By blackspidey2099

@subline said:

The Trio of Marksmen have got this for sure, much better draw speed as a whole.

They also have better accuracy and marksmanship skill/gun kata which would give them the advantage.

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BOC

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Ollie solos

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@rbt: What do Slade and Diggle have in terms of accuracy feats?

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blackspidey2099

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@rbt: What does Oliver have in terms of accuracy feats that can match Wick's gun kata, Ward's precision, and Frank's firepower?

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RBT

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@subline said:

@rbt: What do Slade and Diggle have in terms of accuracy feats?

Dig was eyeshotting Dominators. And Slade probably has the worst feats out of all three, but his feat against those 8 island dudes is probably still better than anything from Ward with a handgun.

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RBT

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@rbt: What does Oliver have in terms of accuracy feats that can match Wick's gun kata, Ward's precision, and Frank's firepower?

Genuinely couldn't even be bothered with this shitty bait.

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blackspidey2099

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@rbt: Ahh yes, your classic strategy. When the feats aren't good enough to show that Arrow characters can win, you always cover your eyes and ears and shout "BAIT" until you've convinced yourself that they win anyways. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't change the fact, or achieve any purpose whatsoever.

Though I guess it isn't quite as pathetic as spamming porn to drown out the fact that Oliver loses, so in terms of Arrow fanboys, you're not the most pitiable one out there.

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RBT

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@rbt:

Dig was eyeshotting Dominators.

If Diggle really was accurate enough to specifically hit the eye, how do you explain Diggle spamming multiple shots at the same Dominator, surely he could just get one clean eyeshot and move on to the next target.

his feat against those 8 island dudes is probably still better than anything from Ward with a handgun.

In terms of accuracy, Wick drawing his gun and hitting two very specific places, while avoiding the rib-cage and avoiding any slight grazing on the collar bone while barely spending time to aim is certainly better.

Care to explain how hitting rapid headshots is better than Ward hitting dead centre in the middle of Bobbi's forehead from quite a hefty distance away.

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RBT

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@subline: What do you mean by IF Dig was accurate enough? We literally saw it happen on screen. And the accuracy he has shown with a crossbow he just picked up goes to show just how naturally accurate he is.

As for Slade v Ward, are you asking me how hitting multiple headshots back to back is better than hitting ONE headshot?

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WhatIsWritten

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@rbt: Ahh yes, your classic strategy. When the feats aren't good enough to show that Arrow characters can win, you always cover your eyes and ears and shout "BAIT" until you've convinced yourself that they win anyways. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't change the fact, or achieve any purpose whatsoever.

Though I guess it isn't quite as pathetic as spamming porn to drown out the fact that Oliver loses, so in terms of Arrow fanboys, you're not the most pitiable one out there.

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RBT

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@subline: I think I just got what you meant. Were you saying Wick is more accurate than Ward with a handgun? In which case, I agree.

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@rbt:

What do you mean by IF Dig was accurate enough? We literally saw it happen on screen.

I mean that Diggle could have just been aiming for a headshot, but just happened to hit a specific area. And I'm not seeing an explanation to the instance I pointed out.

And the accuracy he has shown with a crossbow he just picked up goes to show just how naturally accurate he is.

Accuracy feats such as?

As for Slade v Ward, are you asking me how hitting multiple headshots back to back is better than hitting ONE headshot?

Hitting a general headshot isn't the same as hitting bang in the middle of a target's forehead, he could have hit anywhere on the guys' heads, we don't see it clearly.

Secondly, Ward hits his shot from a much much greater distance than Slade does any of his.

I think I just got what you meant. Were you saying Wick is more accurate than Ward with a handgun? In which case, I agree.

I'm saying either Wick or Ward is more accurate than Slade or Diggle with a handgun.

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@subline:

Accuracy feats such as?

The tennis ball feat. The USB feat.

Hitting a general headshot isn't the same as hitting bang in the middle of a target's forehead, he could have hit anywhere on the guys' heads, we don't see it clearly.

Lets see, Dig 'accidentally' got an eye shot, but Ward hitting the middle of a target's forehead was 100% totally completely intentional? Suuure.

I'm saying either Wick or Ward is more accurate than Slade or Diggle with a handgun.

Wick, definitely. Ward, not even close.

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@rbt:

The tennis ball feat. The USB feat.

Gifs for these feats?

And since you were initially so inclined on pure handgun feats, but are now moving on to scaling from other weaponry, I'm sure you'd condone of me using Ward managing to graze a target's neck from a good mile away, just precisely enough so that the target would bleed out slowly in front of Coulson.

Lets see, Dig 'accidentally' got an eye shot, but Ward hitting the middle of a target's forehead was 100% totally completely intentional? Suuure.

If there was nothing to suggest that Diggle's shot was pure luck I would treat it as a pure solid accuracy showing, but there is. And this is the second time you've dodged my question:

If Diggle really was accurate enough to specifically hit the eye, how do you explain Diggle spamming multiple shots at the same Dominator, surely he could just get one clean eyeshot and move on to the next target right?

Wick, definitely.

"The fact that everyone on team 2 has better accuracy feats than everyone on 'Marksmen' team is hilarious."

Still hilarious huh?

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Slade-Prime

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So about that Nat eye shot....

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WhatIsWritten

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@rbt said:

@subline:

Lets see, Dig 'accidentally' got an eye shot, but Ward hitting the middle of a target's forehead was 100% totally completely intentional? Suuure.

bruh youre so dumb

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RBT

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@subline:

Gifs for these feats?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfIbsQDuoU

Can't find the clip for second one. Will edit it in if I do. If you have access to the episodes, its in 6x06.

And since you were initially so inclined on pure handgun feats, but are now moving on to scaling from other weaponry, I'm sure you'd condone of me using Ward managing to graze a target's neck from a good mile away, just precisely enough so that the target would bleed out slowly in front of Coulson.

Because the entire reason they built him a custom crossbow was so that his handgun skills could transfer. In fact, they have established that Dig is not good at using regular bows and arrows. When he missed some easy shots and made a comment about him being a glock kind of guy. The triggered, autloading crossbow, quite like a handgun, was custom made for him so he could still do bits and not miss a massive moving van from 50 ft like he does with regular bows and arrows. Dig wouldn't be able to do half the things with a bow and an arrow that he did with his crossbow or his glock.

I wouldn't use sniper feat for Dig or Slade either. You don't have the luxury of a BSS scope, a bipod and 5 minutes to set up your shot when you're using a handgun. AR feats should definitely be transferable to handgun more or less. But not sniper. I mean, Dig has a feat of quickly switching between two armoured targets from over a kilometre away and one shot them with a sniper. But that's hardly transferable to his handgun capabilities.

If there was nothing to suggest that Diggle's shot was pure luck I would treat it as a pure solid accuracy showing, but there is. And this is the second time you've dodged my question:

If Diggle really was accurate enough to specifically hit the eye, how do you explain Diggle spamming multiple shots at the same Dominator, surely he could just get one clean eyeshot and move on to the next target right?

Because its an extremely stupid question. A question you're only asking for Dig and not for Ward. If Ward was capable of always hitting the dead center of someone's forehead, why does he miss so often then? Was it luck on his part as well? Its just plain stupid to take the best feat and then question why not all other feats are on par with the best feat. Ward's headshot on Bobbi is his best feat. Dig's eyeshot on Dominators is Dig's best feat(or one of the best). And despite headshotting Bobbi from a good range, he has missed in other instances. That doesn't mean the headshot was a fluke in any way.

"The fact that everyone on team 2 has better accuracy feats than everyone on 'Marksmen' team is hilarious."

Still hilarious huh?

Not really, no. I have zero problem conceding any statement or position granted you give me feats. You did with Wick. The accuracy feat you posted for him is genuinely impressive and I conceded that point the moment I saw the feat with no back argument from me. But now you're hellbent on taking an incredibly average feat from Ward and try to hype it up while straight up ignoring feats from the other side.

So yeah, Wick is definitely better. Ward; not even close. Not based on the feat you posted at least.

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PaulPogba

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The Trio of Marksmen handily.

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the_magister

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WhatIsWritten

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#29  Edited By WhatIsWritten

@rbt said:

@subline:

Because its an extremely stupid question. Was it luck on his part as well? Its just plain stupid to take the best feat and then question why not all other feats are on par with the best feat. Ward's headshot on Bobbi is his best feat. Dig's eyeshot on Dominators is Dig's best feat(or one of the best). That doesn't mean the headshot was a fluke in any way.

shooting feats are based on how many shots on target you made out of the total number of shots you made in that instance.

Dig took like 5-6 shots and they all missed except 1 that hit the eye. This isn't a feat, or if it is then its not a good one. Ward took one shot and he got that shot dead centre of bobbi's head. thats a feat, and a very impressive one.

If Ward was capable of always hitting the dead center of someone's forehead, why does he miss so often then?

he doesn't, he just doesn't always go for headshots, same with every single person in this thread except maybe wick.

And despite headshotting Bobbi from a good range, he has missed in other instances.

like when? Ward has consistently rekkt multiple fodders with a handgun, you'd be hardpressed to find any anti feats for his accuracy in the series unless the person in question is behind cover, and even then his impressive feats far outweight his anti feats.

his feat against those 8 island dudes is probably still better than anything from Ward with a handgun.

no solid evidence those were headshots

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PaulPogba

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Trio stomps

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RBT

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#31  Edited By RBT

@paulpogba said:

Trio stomps

Arrow timing feats for any of them? Considering Oliver is faster at draw than any one of them and is accurate enough to shoot three arrows at same time and make them all hit their target

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PaulPogba

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@rbt said:
@paulpogba said:

Trio stomps

Arrow timing feats for any of them? Considering Oliver is faster at draw than any one of them and is accurate enough to shoot three arrows at same time and make them all hit their target

Only Oliver is fast enough, due to his "bullet timing" feat but the others two are complete non factors. Wick just shoots them up

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@paulpogba: Oliver isn't a bullet timer. Heck, both Dig and Slade has more convincing bullet timing feats than Oliver, but that wasn't my point.

My point is that Oliver has faster draw speed than anyone on the other team. And he is accurate enough to load three arrows at the same time, shoot it, and hit different targets with it. Considering no one on the other team is fast enough to outdraw him, nor are any of them capable of arrow timing, nor is their armor capable of stopping arrows; how do they not get shot up the moment the fight begins?

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PaulPogba

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@rbt said:

@paulpogba: Oliver isn't a bullet timer. Heck, both Dig and Slade has more convincing bullet timing feats than Oliver, but that wasn't my point.

My point is that Oliver has faster draw speed than anyone on the other team. And he is accurate enough to load three arrows at the same time, shoot it, and hit different targets with it. Considering no one on the other team is fast enough to outdraw him, nor are any of them capable of arrow timing, nor is their armor capable of stopping arrows; how do they not get shot up the moment the fight begins?

Battle awareness, skills and reflexes. I mean Wick managed to not get hit by multiple gunfire bullets, he can surely dodge or continue to fight after an Arrow.

The CW team has a weak link which is Dig..

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WhatIsWritten

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@rbt said:
@paulpogba said:

Trio stomps

Arrow timing feats for any of them? Considering Oliver is faster at draw than any one of them and is accurate enough to shoot three arrows at same time and make them all hit their target

unless they all start off with their guns holstered, this wont make a difference. considering wick's aiming speed feats

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RBT

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@paulpogba:

Battle awareness, skills and reflexes.

Well skill isn't gonna help you dodge a fast projectile. Reflexes are though. That's why I'm asking for any reflex feat from them that would imply they can time Oliver's arrows.

I mean Wick managed to not get hit by multiple gunfire bullets, he can surely dodge or continue to fight after an Arrow.

I'd assume he was aim dodging and not bullet timing? I could be wrong since I don't know all of Wick's feats. But if he wasn't bullet timing, then I don't see how it implies he can time Oliver's arrows either.

The CW team has a weak link which is Dig..

Debatable, but I'm not even arguing for him. All I'm asking is feats to suggest they can time arrows. Because that's going to be very important when you're going against a morals off Green Arrow. They can't really rely on him missing nor can they rely on their armour because Oliver's arrow would punch clean through their kevlar like its not even there.

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PaulPogba

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@rbt:

Loading Video...

Well this should suggest that John can take a few hits, I mean he did continue to fight after getting hit by multiple bullets and he has the awareness and accuracy to land a kill shot and take one of the team quickly.

Ward should have had some decent reflexes and he has strenght on Ollie.
Overall he can't solo due to numbers.

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@paulpogba:

Well this should suggest that John can take a few hits, I mean he did continue to fight after getting hit by multiple bullets and he has the awareness and accuracy to land a kill shot and take one of the team quickly.

Not aware of the context, but it looks like his suit is completely bulletproof, the way he is using it to shield himself from bullets. If not, and if he did get shot so many times and didn't go down, then I'd agree that he has more than good enough pain tolerance to take an arrow and not go down. So, it really depends on whether the suit he was wearing in the gif was bulletproof or not.

Ward should have had some decent reflexes

He doesn't.

and he has strenght on Ollie.

He most certainly does not and I could elaborate on this if needed, but strength will only matter in cqc. It won't really help from range. And going by the feats I'm aware of, Ward isn't even closing in.

Overall he can't solo due to numbers.

I mean, its debatable for sure. Frank has incredible pain tolerance. He can't arrow time, but he won't be down in one arrow either. I'm not aware of all of Wick's feats and Ward is...just unimpressive all around. My point is, none of them have feats to suggest they can time arrows and considering Oliver would straight up go for the kill from the get go because of his lack of morals, they will get peppered by arrows. It just comes down to how good their pain tolerance is. So far, Frank is the only one with good enough pain tolerance to take an arrow and not go down, which just does not bode well for team 1 at all.

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WhatIsWritten

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@rbt:

Ward has strenght on Ollie.

nah my g, this aint it

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PaulPogba

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@rbt said:

@paulpogba:

Well this should suggest that John can take a few hits, I mean he did continue to fight after getting hit by multiple bullets and he has the awareness and accuracy to land a kill shot and take one of the team quickly.

Not aware of the context, but it looks like his suit is completely bulletproof, the way he is using it to shield himself from bullets. If not, and if he did get shot so many times and didn't go down, then I'd agree that he has more than good enough pain tolerance to take an arrow and not go down. So, it really depends on whether the suit he was wearing in the gif was bulletproof or not.

Ward should have had some decent reflexes

He doesn't.

and he has strenght on Ollie.

He most certainly does not and I could elaborate on this if needed, but strength will only matter in cqc. It won't really help from range. And going by the feats I'm aware of, Ward isn't even closing in.

Overall he can't solo due to numbers.

I mean, its debatable for sure. Frank has incredible pain tolerance. He can't arrow time, but he won't be down in one arrow either. I'm not aware of all of Wick's feats and Ward is...just unimpressive all around. My point is, none of them have feats to suggest they can time arrows and considering Oliver would straight up go for the kill from the get go because of his lack of morals, they will get peppered by arrows. It just comes down to how good their pain tolerance is. So far, Frank is the only one with good enough pain tolerance to take an arrow and not go down, which just does not bode well for team 1 at all.

Oh fair, I can agree with your take.

Dodges a knife slash and kicks an operative to the ground

Dodges an overhead chain swing and counters with a jab

Avoids gunfire coming from multiple directions and rolls over a billiards table to find cover

Beats May to a pistol with a roll

Dodges a rocket launched by Deathlok

Takes down six SHIELD agents coming from three directions in rapid succession using ICERS, before any of them can react

Detects a guerrilla soldier hiding in the bush behind him, despite there being little to no movement to indicate it

Senses that the woman behind him has a concealed gun aimed at his back and reacts quickly enough to turn around, disarm her of the gun, and then perform a throw on another assassin waiting in the room

Dodges multiple attacks from an enhanced Centipede Soldier, who has military training

Throws a glass to surprise one armed soldier, grabs a metal plate to deflect an incoming barrage of bullets, takes a gun away from one of the assailants, shoots another assailant, then throws the metal plate so hard it knocks down a soldier

@the_magister credit to him for the finds. But there are a few good feats for Ward's reactions.

Anyways I see the point on Frank but Frank is a very efficient strikes and has nice accuracy. Wick/Frank can put down any of the team quickly if they have the right position

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PaulPogba

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ANTHP2000

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#42 ANTHP2000  Online

Ward wins. Without missing a beat.

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@paulpogba:

Oh fair, I can agree with your take.

Thanks.

But there are a few good feats for Ward's reactions.

You just pasted the entire RT..

The fact that there are feats like Ward dodging a knife attack in cqc, aim blocking and disarming people being presented as reflex feats should go to tell you just how incredibly unimpressive he is.

Anyways I see the point on Frank but Frank is a very efficient strikes and has nice accuracy. Wick/Frank can put down any of the team quickly if they have the right position

I mean, all it'd take is one headshot and literally anyone here would be dead, so same can be said for anyone here. With right position, anyone here can take anyone else. But yeah, Frank likely would be the most dangerous person on his team because of his pain tolerance.

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PaulPogba

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@rbt said:

@paulpogba:

Oh fair, I can agree with your take.

Thanks.

But there are a few good feats for Ward's reactions.

You just pasted the entire RT..

The fact that there are feats like Ward dodging a knife attack in cqc, aim blocking and disarming people being presented as reflex feats should go to tell you just how incredibly unimpressive he is.

Anyways I see the point on Frank but Frank is a very efficient strikes and has nice accuracy. Wick/Frank can put down any of the team quickly if they have the right position

I mean, all it'd take is one headshot and literally anyone here would be dead, so same can be said for anyone here. With right position, anyone here can take anyone else. But yeah, Frank likely would be the most dangerous person on his team because of his pain tolerance.

So what your take on the winner? cause Dig/Ward are kinda weak links after seeing their feats again.

I think it can go either way, it depends who gets one shotted at start of the match.

Ollie vs Wick / Frank I am leaning toward the team.

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@paulpogba:

So what your take on the winner? cause Dig/Ward are kinda weak links after seeing their feats again.

Definitely team 2. If a plausible case can be made for Oliver being able to solo this, it's almost impossible for team 2 to lose this. Especially considering Dig and Slade aren't slouches. In fact, they have some pretty decent feats.

I think it can go either way, it depends who gets one shotted at start of the match.

Well, both Oliver and Dig can shoot people through kevlar extremely easily. And Oliver happens to be the fastest and most accurate here, so team 1 would definitely be down a man first. And from there it'd be a downhill battle for them. The odds are against them to begin with and with them having a higher chance of losing people on their team, it'll only get worse. Especially considering both Diggle and Oliver can shoot people through their kevlar.

Ollie vs Wick / Frank I am leaning toward the team.

I'd reserve my opinion on this because I'm not completely aware of Wick's feats. But Ollie would definitely beat Frank/Ward in a 2v1, IMO.

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PaulPogba

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@rbt said:

@paulpogba:

So what your take on the winner? cause Dig/Ward are kinda weak links after seeing their feats again.

Definitely team 2. If a plausible case can be made for Oliver being able to solo this, it's almost impossible for team 2 to lose this. Especially considering Dig and Slade aren't slouches. In fact, they have some pretty decent feats.

I think it can go either way, it depends who gets one shotted at start of the match.

Well, both Oliver and Dig can shoot people through kevlar extremely easily. And Oliver happens to be the fastest and most accurate here, so team 1 would definitely be down a man first. And from there it'd be a downhill battle for them. The odds are against them to begin with and with them having a higher chance of losing people on their team, it'll only get worse. Especially considering both Diggle and Oliver can shoot people through their kevlar.

Ollie vs Wick / Frank I am leaning toward the team.

I'd reserve my opinion on this because I'm not completely aware of Wick's feats. But Ollie would definitely beat Frank/Ward in a 2v1, IMO.

Well Ward is kind a non factor, he is only stronger and more precise than Dig so yeah it looks plausible

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Shinne

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Team CW.

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PaulPogba

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subline

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@rbt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfIbsQDuoU

Can't find the clip for second one. Will edit it in if I do. If you have access to the episodes, its in 6x06.

https://youtu.be/KrrkSeLA1KE?t=190

Bruh there's not even any port... it's just a flat surface

Because the entire reason they built him a custom crossbow was so that his handgun skills could transfer. In fact, they have established that Dig is not good at using regular bows and arrows. When he missed some easy shots and made a comment about him being a glock kind of guy. The triggered, autloading crossbow, quite like a handgun, was custom made for him so he could still do bits and not miss a massive moving van from 50 ft like he does with regular bows and arrows. Dig wouldn't be able to do half the things with a bow and an arrow that he did with his crossbow or his glock.

They built him a crossbow, because he's posing as the Green Arrow, and as you just said yourself, Diggle obviously can't use a bow and arrow. Sure he's a lot more competent with a crossbow, doesn't mean his handgun skills transfer at all, the weapons are used and handled entirely differently, since you're so inclined to bring up the privileges of using a sniper it's sure ironic that you ignore the advantages of a crossbow, heck even Curtis himself says:

Felicity: 260lb draw weight, the arrows exit the gate at 400FPS, that's feet per second. Integrated recoil energy dissipation system

Curtis: Adjustable mount scope, quick detach quivers, pistol grip, finger guards, non-slip rubber insert.

Since Oat has took over for the rest I'll leave that to him.

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@subline: Since you didn't address the Ward's headshot vs Dig's eyeshot part, I'm assuming you agree?