TPM Maul vs 30 year old Sith apprentice Sidious

Sidious.

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Sidious stomps.

In theory, a 30 year old Sidious who's the most powerful Sith to ever live should be further along in his power growth than TPM Maul.

Sidious wins in a good fight.

Likely Maul. Longer training, harsher training, at least comparable midichlorian count etc.

Sidious easily.

Maul

Sidious wins.

Maul, he was trained to kill other force sensitives. And since he probably knows he's fighting his old master, he won't play around

Sidious

At this point in time, I'll favor Maul.

Maul.

He's had 21 years of training, whereas Sidious had 13.

Maul has had battles with top ranked Jedi by this time. Maul was focused entirely upon becoming a vessel for the dark side, whereas Sidious had to devote some of his time to school and becoming a politician.

@hypnos0929 said:

You say that like devoting time to school and becoming a politician doesn't involve focusing entirely upon becoming a vessel for the dark side...

I agree, though. Sidious BECOMES the most powerful Sith ever, but he doesn't start there. Sidious is in the process of learning to become a leader and a Sith, while Maul... Maul learned how to become a weapon.

If we were comparing their ability to infiltrate something and take it over, Sidious by a mile even at his level of training. In a fight? I'd go with Maul.

1 Maul was able to devote every waking hour, for roughly 21 years, to studying the dark side. Sidious simply did not have that amount of time. If you think Sidious was capable of focusing entirely on studying the dark side, then I'd like to hear your explanation, if you don't mind.

2. Maul was far more than a weapon. He trained to replace Sidious. This is in two Legends source (End Game, and ICR) and in an interview with Filoni and Witwer for TCW season five when Maul amasses the Shadow Collective:

Maul is "...strategic and diplomatic..."

"We know he has this incredible mind that no one has previously seen..."

"On The Clone Wars, we had to show that Maul was capable of being a general. Darth Sidious chose him to be his apprentice and trained him well. Maul wasn’t just a mindless hitman. And this was the version of the character that I’d been waiting to do for a long time."

"How Darth Maul has become an intellectual character."

"SW: He had to be. The Sith as a culture realized, “Hey, we’re all bad guys, we don’t work well together, so let’s keep it to two. Otherwise we’ll be killing each other left and right.” So if you follow the Rule of Two, you have to pick your apprentice very carefully.

"You don’t just pick a guy because he can do cool flips and swing a sword good. You choose a guy who is brilliant and gifted in so many ways, physically and mentally, and can carry on the Sith tradition proudly. A thuggish hitman would be a hindrance when trying to take over the galaxy. You need someone who can work with you and to whom you can pass the baton when the time comes.

"And that’s a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It’s so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he’s found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down."

"There are things he could do to assist these people and help them along, but that’s not really the Sith way. Palpatine is looking for someone who could ideally defeat him and take the Sith mantle from him..."

In Legends, he was the Chief Commander of the CIS military. On the SW website, Maul's databank states he is a scheming mastermind. There are the Legends and Canon quotes about Maul being one of the most highly trained and skilled Sith in the entire history of the Sith Order, etc.

Maul was much more than just a weapon, although he was quite a proficient weapon.

3. Please provide evidence that Sidious, by a mile, was better abled to "infiltrate something and take it over."

@redheathen:

1. Dude, the first paragraph was a joke. I was equating becoming a politician with immersing oneself in the darkside. Sorry for the confusion.

2. Sidious trained him primarily as a weapon. Most evidence I can recall had him always intended by Sidious as a tool akin to Vader (competent, but more attack dog on a leash than anyone ever intended to be his equal), not as an apprentice worthy of Bane's philosophy.

Also, there's legends and canon quotes about practically every jedi, sith, and their mothers being the most highly trained and skilled [whatever] in the history of [applicable association]. I've stopped giving those sorts of hyperbolic statements much weight unless they're fleshed out in other ways.

But hey, its been a while since I've immersed myself in Maul's lore. It's possibly they've changed the nature of his character to something more closely resembling a proper Sith apprentice intended to be an actual potential rival to Sidious, instead of the Point-and-Click subtle-as-a-pink-elephant Sith Missile he demonstrates himself to be in the movies. Doesn't sound much like Sidious to me, but entirely possible.

3. Sidious actually infiltrated things and took them over, including the Senate. He IS the Senate! Aside from being the greatest mortal void in the force that makes most Darksiders look like white knights, that's basically Sidious' thing.

By a mile was hyperbolic, however - I am aware enough that Maul took over a criminal organization of some kind, though IIRC, he wasn't particularly subtle about it (y'know, that whole "infiltrate" part of my claim).

P.S. Hours devoted to something don't necessarily equate to the mastery gained. Maul had a great deal of potential, but everything I've seen strongly suggests his potential paled in comparison to Sidious, particularly in the depths of darkness that Sidious was capable of even at a young age.

2. please give this evidence.

there is nothing hyperbolic about maul in these statements as they are repeated, almost verbatim, in multiple sources. not a single one calls him "the most". what i've said is not hyperbole in the least...hmm. or maybe it would be best to provide the definition of hyperbole first. then we can break these examples down.

maul's nature has not changed. again, i'd love to see your sources.

3. sidious did not infiltrate the senate on his own. he was able to do this because of 1000 years of preparation in general (to destroy the republic), and more specific prep and grooming and placement by damask.

obviously "by a mile" is hyperbolic; however, it suggests a vast disparity, which is what i addressed. so allow me please to readdress: Please provide evidence that Sidious, by a vast disparity, was better abled to "infiltrate something and take it over." the senate answer wasn't good enough because sidious didn't do this own his own.

P.S. the "hours" you mention sound like a minor thing. this is every day over a couple decades. can you give a few examples of the "everything" you've seen that compares his potential to sidious'? especially the depths of darkness? and at what age was sidious when these events occurred?

2. My recollection is the evidence I'm using. Most of what I know Maul from is the Prequels and one or two tie-in comics from that time, and all I've seen of him since are flashes of feats and the like from forums like this (most of which are, perhaps unsurprisingly, oriented almost exclusively towards his battle prowess). I recall panels stating that Sidious trained him for a purpose, and it wasn't to become a rival. I don't have them, and I'm not invested enough to scour for them.

His initial character was presented as "mostly silent assassin, roughly as subtle as a Nerf in a china shop, that got killed because he couldn't take advantage of the high ground." Nothing of intelligence, subtlety, leadership, or any other quality other than Weapon were ever displayed.

If they've fleshed out his personality and qualities to the point that he's now a genius leader of immense force potency and subtlety, awesome. Good for Maul.

Re the hyperbolic statements, I misspoke to the extent I didn't include the "one of the" part of the phrase you used to describe him. "One of the most powerful/skilled/handsome/sassy [X] of [Y]" really is the description for more force users than I'd ever want to count. Accolades like that put him as one more of a giant pile of one-of's.

3. Sidious didn't do it entirely on his own, but he did do it substantially on his own. I described my use of the "by a mile" phrase as hyperbolic because I didn't actually intend to suggest the disparity was actually that huge, just that there was a disparity. From the feats that I've seen from both combatants, Sidious strikes me as far more competent, because he's actually done infiltrating/taking things over and was trained in politics .

This seems utterly and entirely outside the scope of the original discussion, though, so is there a reason besides arguing for the sake of arguing that we're pursuing this aspect of the discussion?

4. (Hours) It isn't a minor thing, in my mind. Every force user has potential, and many force users have incredible potential, but Sidious's potential (from what I recall of what I read probably a good decade or more ago), particularly in the Dark Side of the Force, was immense even at a young age.

Part of that potential is how quickly you learn something. What might take me days or weeks or months to learn could take someone so naturally gifted they'd be called a genius far, far less time. What might have taken Maul 21 years to master, Sidious might have mastered in 5. Between the two, the accolades for Sidious' potential have always struck me as far higher, and in terms of actual achievement, the same applies.

Being a long-lived force-user is neither necessary nor inevitable for becoming a powerful, or even overwhelming, force-user. That's significantly more tied to potential than anything else (as demonstrated by Anakin and Luke, who so quickly rose to become peers or near-peers to the most powerful force users in the galaxy after utterly rediculously low time in training).

I could be wrong about Sidious' potential relative to Maul's, but that seems rather doubtful, given what they've actually accomplished.

5. You've been asking for a lot of evidence, and I've clearly been found wanting. As I've stated multiple times, I'm not all that aware of Maul as he's currently depicted, and most of what I know about young Sidious comes from foggy memories of long past, bits and pieces picked up as through life I've strolled along. If you'd like to provide some evidence on Maul truly being one of the most powerful Sith in the history of the sith, that'd be great. I'd honestly love to read it.

But I'm not particularly inclined to do immense amounts of research on this topic. I'm just not that invested in it. *shrug*

@unusual_suspect:I had a reply typed out. It was pretty good, and I thought it would be helpful. I allowed my laptop to run out of power, and I lost it all, lol.

Anyone have a case for Sidious?

Sidious needs more training to take on Maul who at this point has devoted most of 21 years to mastering the Dark Side and has experience actually killing Jedi. Kind of a Stomp, at this point Sidious is a better match for Qui'Gon, or TPM Kenobi.

Honestly, Maul. As a succeeding Banite Sith that was so terrifically trained, I don't see any reason why Sidious should win. It's not like we have ever been given midi-chlorian counts.

At this point, it goes down in typical Bane tradition:

And I've always felt that TPM Sidious was a better master than Plagueis Plagueis