(TPM) Darth Maul vs Savage Opress

So I haven't been able to find a thread like this on here despite recalling one existing.

(TPM) Darth Maul:

vs

Savage Opress:

Rules:

Savage in his prime.

Canon only.

Darth Maul's feats from The Clone Wars, Son of Dathomir, and Rebels are not to be considered.

Round 1: Physicality.

Round 2: Force aptitude.

Round 3: Dueling/Martial prowess.

Round 4: All-out.

Please remain respectful.

Here's my take on it:

Round 1: Savage Opress, 6/10.

Round 2: Savage Opress: 10/10.

Round 3: Darth Maul 10/10.

Round 4: Savage Opress, 6/10.

If Legends, then Maul takes Round 4 quite solidly.

Consider this:

By the time of--or before--"Revival," Savage and Maul are on the same level. Maul--at this point--is more powerful than his TPM variation.

Maul sweeps with ease. I see little to no reason to give those magazines any more weight than Head to Head

@greysentinel365: Head-to-Head directly contradicted Canon, this hasn't.

@formally_darth: There is literally nothing to put Savage near Maul as a force user. Maul has feats matching Oppress' best when he's 15. Nothing that makes this match a close call at all.

Nor is there any reason to think those pages hold any authority at all.

@greysentinel365: "There is literally nothing to put Savage near Maul as a force user. Maul has feats matching Oppress' best when he's 15. Nothing that makes this match a close call at all."

Savage blasted heavy metal while massively pre prime:

Savage blasting a small ship off a platform with minimal effort while massively pre prime:

Savage, when amped, choked and rag dolled both Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress while massively pre prime:

Savage, when amped, blasting Count Dooku while massively pre prime:

Savage, when amped, using Force Repulse to destroy a wave of Droidekas, Super Battle Droids, and standard Battle Droids, flooring Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, while massively pre prime:

Savage and Maul blasting a company of armored Mercenaries, two Jedi Masters, and a Jedi Padawan back with their collective might while pre prime:

Count Dooku stating Savage's powers would soon rival Darth Maul (last seen from The Phantom Menace): "Soon, your powers with rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul!"

Savage staggering Darth Maul, Jedi Master Judd, and rag dolling armored Mercenaries with a Force Repulse while pre prime:

Savage blasts Jedi Master and Council Member Adi Gallia hard enough to stun her while pre prime:

Savage uses the Saber Throw ability, decapitating five people before anyone could react:

Savage can feel Maul's emotions through Force Empathy: "Savage had felt his Master's frustration and approached Maul and Vizsla, glaring at the Mandalorian."

Savage catches a knife from entering Maul's skull, saving him:

Savage destroying a cell made of Mandalorian Iron, a near indestructible metal:

Savage being able to use Force Repulse shows exceptional talent, as it is an ability used by only a few who are skilled and powerful enough. Maul has only been seen using a Force Repulse as of Son of Dathomir.

All of these seem pretty superior to what Maul has shown as of The Phantom Menace. For the record, I prefer Maul and own all of his books/comics, so I know more than most what he's capable of.

Y'know, its generally known that the OP doesn't argue or give his input in his own thread.

@king-ragnar: Why not?

@king-ragnar: I've even seen it done in multiple threads.

@formally_darth: They're not meant to be doing it either

Also this exists

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/tpm-darth-maul-vs-savage-opress-1735398/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/tpm-darth-maul-vs-tcw-s5-savage-opress-1843315/

@greysentinel365: Again, why not? Seems like a lame rule if there is one. Why can't I join discussing the topic I created?

Cheap jab. Like I said at the start, I knew I had seen a thread like it before but couldn't find it. So I made my own, but the rounds I made don't line up with the rounds in the others, so it seems alright to me.

@yousufkhan1212

Your thoughts?

@formally_darth:

Savage blasted heavy metal while massively pre prime

Yawn

Darth Maul pulled his double lightsaber from his belt and held his thumb upon the ignition button. He took a deep breath and centered himself in the swirls and eddies of the dark side. Then, his power and concentration thus augmented, he thrust forward his free hand as though hurling an invisible ball.

The door shattered inward.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Next

Savage blasting a small ship off a platform with minimal effort while massively pre prime:

1. There's nothing indicating Savages growth was "massive"

2. Yawn

Merely imagining it set his fingers trembling, and abruptly the tool slipped from its tenuous hold in the socket and stabbed deeply into the palm of his opposite hand, opening a small wound and bursting the dam of his pent-up emotion. Maul’s clenched right hand slammed down on the table, shattering its surface, and the vibroblade took flight, nearly impaling itself in his head. Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him.

Restraint

The barracks has 500 students along with staff. The students have high-grade accommodation, they share rooms of two, the barracks have stations for mechanical work, and the instructor’s quarters has a fireplace - a huge facility.

"Right now." Trezza said, "we have just over five hundred cadets

[...]

Maul opened the door and stepped into the office. Trezza was seated behind his massive desk. Kilindi stood before him. And Meltch Krakko stood on the far side of the room, near an open fireplace.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

He was picking up the pieces of his short-lived fit—collecting the knife and the far-flung tools—when two of his fellow trainees entered the barracks.

The taller and older of the pair, Kilindi Matako, scanned the room, taking in the dismantled vibroblade, the table’s crazed top, and the fresh blood dripping from Maul’s punctured left hand.

Restraint

Maul notes that “most of the [500] cadets would already be asleep in the barracks,” and he goes from room to room killing them, which suggests he isn’t going from building to building - the barracks is one large building.

He moved quickly and quietly through the courtyards and buildings. First, he killed the Academy's sentries, and then the security guards posted outside the training rooms and barracks. He used the Force when it was most efficient, and his bare hands whenever it pleased him. Knowing that most of the cadets would already be asleep in the barracks, he went noiselessly from one darkened room to the next, leaving a trail of death.

He entered the room shared by Kilindi and Daleen. Kilindi's bunk was empty. Daleen's wasn't. Daleen was snoring lightly. A moment later, her life had ended, and Maul was moving out the door. He took no comfort from Kilindi's absence. He knew he would find her.

When he arrived upon the sleeping forms of the Rodians Hubnutz and Fretch, he woke them before he broke their necks.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

In other words Maul has a feat that dwarfs this at 15. And he only gets more powerful from here.

Next

Savage, when amped

Savage, when amped

Savage, when amped

Savage never reached nor displayed that level of power again. Dismissed.

Savage and Maul blasting a company of armored Mercenaries, two Jedi Masters, and a Jedi Padawan back with their collective might while pre prime:

Yes Maul blew away the Jedi and all but 10 of the Mercs. Savage did the rest.

In other words you have no way of showing how much Savage is contributing for this. Dismissed

Count Dooku stating Savage's powers would soon rival Darth Maul (last seen from The Phantom Menace): "Soon, your powers with rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul!"

Dooku's manipulative,ego stroking is not factual nor relevant

Savage staggering Darth Maul, Jedi Master Judd, and rag dolling armored Mercenaries with a Force Repulse while pre prime:

If this was a deliberate use of power it might be partially impressive. But it's not.

Savage blasts Jedi Master and Council Member Adi Gallia hard enough to stun her while pre prime:

Adi Gaillia's best force feat is throwing a rock.

Whoop

Savage uses the Saber Throw ability, decapitating five people before anyone could react:

Yawn

One speeder bike was ahead of the other. Maul deactivated one of his lightsaber’s blades and hurled it toward the first of the oncoming speeders like a spear. It pierced the officer’s armored chest while the Sith, again assisted by the Force, jumped from the descending PCBU toward the other officer. By the time he had landed on the speeder his lightsaber had rejoined him..

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

So what's the impressive part this feat again. He did a saber throw which non-force sensitives couldn't react to (OMG!) and it spun while he threw it?

Savage destroying a cell made of Mandalorian Iron, a near indestructible metal:

Oh wow you really are from like 2015 SW debating

1. Didn't shatter the Iron. The Iron is the supports holding the cell up. The rest is glass. Notice the supports don't budge an inch. Also in the concept art for the episode

That puts the nail in the coffin. Savage shattered glass.

And that glass? It can be cracked by a guy falling on it.

In fact here's an entire featurette talking about how Mandalore is a glass city.

2. In the novel only the door of the cell is noted to be made of the Iron and Savage doesn't shatter it. He just knocks it off the hinges of the cell. Which is made of normal metal

They lead Satine to a prison cell in her own palace, shutting her in a little room with a cot, desk, and chair, behind a door made of Mandalorian iron.

......

"Apprentice, I wish to tour this facility," he said.

A moment later, the door to their cell exploded outward, ripped away by a tremendous surge in the Force.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

3. It's not impressive anyway

Here is pre-AotC Anakin, shattering a light saber resistant energy trap with the force

He focused so much on his Master, on his need to catch him, that he blundered into an energy trap.

Anakin was caught. He couldn't move. Frustrated, enraged, he slashed at the invisible cage with his lightsaber. He could not free himself. He kicked. He hammered. Caught.

He had met a power greater than his. Impossible!

"Master!" he called, but Obi-Wan didn't hear him. The energy trap sucked his voice out of the air and imprisoned it.

I just need the Force. Obi-Wan said a Master can summon the Force and fight this. I am as good as a Master. I can do this.

......

"You..." It was all he managed to get out. Obi-Wan heard pounding feet behind him. Anakin ran up and stopped. "Master - "

"It's all right. He's gone." Obi-Wan deactivated his lightsaber. "It's over."

"I was caught in an energy trap."

"You got out by yourself. That's good. Come, Padawan." Obi-Wan turned. "Let's see to the others.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Hell in the novel it's stated any master can bust through the lightsaber resistant trap.

So please. Tell me what, in any way is impressive about this feat?

Savage being able to use Force Repulse shows exceptional talent, as it is an ability used by only a few who are skilled and powerful enough. Maul has only been seen using a Force Repulse as of Son of Dathomir.

Lol. Force repulse isn't a particularly advanced ability. It's just an omni-directional TK blast. Even padawan Vos and Obi-Wan could form such fields

Hell here's only a few months post AotC Kenobi liquefying the blaster proof and lightsaber resistant Durge

Read here to get idea how insanely durable this guy is. So AotC Obi-Wan used a repulse so I guess he's >>>> SoD Maul now? Your logic here.

so I know more than most what he's capable of.

I agree with Grey. These magazines aren’t gospel, they were just written for fun and the target audience are kids who only watch the shows. These magazines state that Maul has “OK” use of the Force, which is pretty laughable.

IIRC, in May 2012, Filoni made that statement that Maul is a super dangerous threat who is kind of in the Vader realm on the basis that Maul has been well trained by Sidious in all the Sith ways, and even made a direct comparison between Maul and folks like Ventress and Savage who are just henchmen, saying that only Maul is on that level of being a super dangerous threat due to him being a a well trained warrior who knows the Sith ways properly.

This statement dates back all the back to May 2012, when Maul had only just returned with his TPM skill set and powers, so it addresses TCW Maul as a whole, even including TCW S4 Maul who is on par with TPM Maul, so TPM Maul is closer to Vader than Savage and Asajj.

The podcast has sadly been removed because YouTube is a dick, I don’t think anyone quoted the Ventress/Savage comparison because no one thinks so lowly of TPM Maul to put him below Ventress/Savage lol.

Maul wins all 4 rounds. Force round depends on whether you take TCW magazines literally and if you’re willing to bet that Savage more powerful than someone who is “kind of in the Vader realm.”

@greysentinel365: "Yawn"

The door was shattered inward, but the metal Savage blasted went flying, killing two guards, and were clearly incredibly dense. Again, quite massively before Savage's prime.

"There's nothing indicating Savages growth was "'massive'"

Except this was literally the beginning of his training. By the time of Eminence, his skill with a saberstaff is considered "astonishing," yet in "Revival" he is considered very "inexperienced" in lightsaber combat, indicating a massive growth.

"Merely imagining it set his fingers trembling, and abruptly the tool slipped from its tenuous hold in the socket and stabbed deeply into the palm of his opposite hand, opening a small wound and bursting the dam of his pent-up emotion. Maul’s clenched right hand slammed down on the table, shattering its surface, and the vibroblade took flight, nearly impaling itself in his head. Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him."

Again, I own the books/comics, I'm well aware of this feat. However, this is not a base level showing. Savage, when amped, has choked and rag dolled both Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress simultaneously. Both of them have incredible feats. Continuing to be amped, Savage floored Kenobi and Anakin.

"Savage never reached nor displayed that level of power again. Dismissed."

Same can be said with Maul's barracks feat.

"If this was a deliberate use of power it might be partially impressive. But it's not."

Deliberate or not, it is still his power. Again, same can be said for Maul's barracks feat.

"Adi Gaillia's best force feat is throwing a rock.

Whoop"

Being considered one of the twelve wisest and most respected Jedi, among other things, goes pretty far. Again, she was a Jedi Council Member. A lack of showings doesn't mean they're weak.

"So what's the impressive part this feat again. He did a saber throw which non-force sensitives couldn't react to (OMG!) and it spun while he threw it?"

Still a better showing than The Phantom Menace's Maul.

"It's not impressive anyway"

Even so, the door is--in fact--Mandalorian Iron, which was "exploded outward, ripped away by a tremendous surge in the Force." That is still great showing, considering Savage exploded a Mandalorian Iron door outward.

"Here is pre-AotC Anakin, shattering a light saber resistant energy trap with the force"

Not really a fair showing, considering it's Anakin, and how much raw power/reserves he has if he's desperate enough.

"Lol. Force repulse isn't a particularly advanced ability. It's just an omni-directional TK blast. Even padawan Vos and Obi-Wan could form such fields"

It being an ability known to only a few that is dependent on the user's inner power would indicate it is a rather advanced ability. Moreover, those fields are not Force Repulse. Are they omni directional? Yes. Are the result of Force Repulse? No.

"Hell here's only a few months post AotC Kenobi liquefying the blaster proof and lightsaber resistant Durge"

Except this was only performed due to Kenobi being inside him. Just like Kylo using his lightsaber to kill a Zillo Beast from the inside, they're not as durable or resistant from the inside. You claim Durge is lightsaber resistant? Wasn't he cut by a lightsaber like nothing multiple times in that series? The only thing that could be considered that are his regenerative abilities.

"You know nothing."

LoL, test me.

@greysentinel365: Just a reminder. This is Canon only. I only just realized this now, but your examples have been exclusively Legends, which don't apply here.

As I've even stated, if this were Legends, Maul takes it.

My stance on Legends The Phantom Menace Maul vs Savage Opress:

Physicality: Maul, 6-7/10.

Force aptitude: Savage, 7-8/10.

Lightsaber/martial prowess: Maul, 10/10.

All-out: Maul, 7/10.

@formally_darth: Because it shows that you already have a winner in mind, which betrays the whole point of a thread.

Not referring to anyone specifically in this thread, but the vast majority of users on the forums deny the published book SW: AEYNTK saying that Maul is more skilled than Dooku on the basis that Dooku has better feats in lightsaber prowess and duelling, and it also claims that Vader is more skilled than Sidious, a notion that people will also object to on the basis that Sidious has better feats in duelling, and there’s also that source that says AotC Kenobi is more powerful than Dooku, something that people will also contest heavily on the basis that Dooku has better Force feats than AotC Kenobi - all of that is fair enough because the story group doesn’t really care about maintaining consistency over power levels, heck there’s also the head to head sourcebook that says Vader would beat Yoda.

If people are going to deny all those claims on the belief that it makes no sense due to what their respective feats show, but have no qualms accepting that Savage is more powerful than TPM/pre-TCW S5 Maul despite what their feats show and the fact that one of the reasons Savage brought Maul back was so that Maul could teach him more of the ways of the Dark Side (what’s he going to learn from a Dark Sider less powerful than himself?), is blatantly disingenuous.

Or we can accept all these claims and agree that Maul, with his saberstaff, is indisputably more skilled than Dooku, and by extension, indisputably more skilled than Kenobi (Dooku’s inferior in skill), and that Maul can do better against TCW S6 Skywalker and Kenobi than Dooku did, even if it sounds silly.

@king-ragnar: Not in the slightest. I'm creating a topic to be discussed. I'm debating points I disagree with to keep it interesting. I don't have a winner, I have someone I believe will win, but I'm open to change my stance so long as someone provides a solid argument.

@yousufkhan1212: I disagree with Dooku holding better dueling feats and prowess over Maul, or even being Maul's superior overall. However, I don't want to turn this into a Dooku vs Maul debate. I actually think that Kenobi may have been more skilled than Dooku at the start of RotS, or at the very least equal. Apparently, he met all of Dooku's strikes casually:

I'm not the biggest fan of fanbase headcanon, especially regarding Maul and Dooku scaling. George already stated the two were like each other in Legends, and Filoni stated Maul was in Vader's realm when he had his TPM power level in Canon. Considering how--in Canon--Vader scales comfortably above Dooku, I fail to see how this is not blatant evidence of Maul being Dooku's superior in Canon.

I digress. But it is truly unfortunate that characters like Maul and Savage are so controversial in the fanbase.

@yousufkhan1212:

Not referring to anyone specifically in this thread, but the vast majority of users on the forums deny the published book SW: AEYNTK saying that Maul is more skilled than Dooku on the basis that Dooku has better feats in lightsaber prowess and duelling, and it also claims that Vader is more skilled than Sidious, a notion that people will also object to on the basis that Sidious has better feats in duelling, and there’s also that source that says AotC Kenobi is more powerful than Dooku, something that people will also contest heavily on the basis that Dooku has better Force feats than AotC Kenobi - all of that is fair enough because the story group doesn’t really care maintaining consistency over power levels, heck there’s also the head to head sourcebook that says Vader would beat Yoda.

Not saying i disagree with you, tho i do believe if feats heavily contradict statements, they shouldn't be taken seriously. I.E based on consistent showings Yoda would decimate Vader (Be it Legends or Canon for that matter), even tho there are statements like you mentioned that go directly against it.

@formally_darth: I haven’t really said anything about my thoughts on Dooku vs Maul. I’m just talking about the inconsistency of those who deny the list that says Maul > Dooku in skill, but agree that Savage > Maul in power.

@formally_darth:

Not in the slightest. I'm creating a topic to be discussed. I'm debating points I disagree with to keep it interesting.

If it's not in the slightest then why are you arguing against everyone who disagrees with you?

I don't have a winner, I have someone I believe will win, but I'm open to change my stance so long as someone provides a solid argument.

The whole point of making a battle thread is that you're not sure who is going to win so you make it and see what people say and make a judgement based on their arguments.

@formally_darth: Wait what?

You realize that more than half your sources are legends right? Including the magazine that started this for you? Hell you just quoted the Stover RotS novel above and it's legends.

Anyway if this is canon I wouldn't have posted. I don't debate trash.

TPM Maul is quite fodder...

Legends TPM Maul is his prime, I think, don’t remember.

Anyway, Maul stomps. The idea that Savage is little more than glorified fodder is fascinating. He’s sub Cognus.

Canon TPM Maul doesn't have the strength feats to surpass Savage in that area, but he's a vastly superior fighter. And, given that even when significantly pre-prime, he was more powerful than Savage, we can conclude that a prime Maul is that much more powerful.

@formally_darth: We literally see Maul stomp Savage on screen, that magazine makes no sense. As for the OP

R1: Savage solidly

R2: Savage has better feats, but Maul never really got to show what he was capable of.

R3: Maul solidly, his dueling was almost on par with Dooku's and is a tier 8 along with Dooku and ep3 Kenobi.

R4: Maul wins. He is a better fighter, and strong enough physically and with the force to not get overwhelmed.

@king-ragnar: I'm not arguing with everyone who disagrees with me. I'm debating their points, attempting to evoke an interesting discussion here. Again, I have someone I believe will win, but I'm not 100%, hence this thread's existence. There's absolutely no reason I can't contribute to this discussion.

Perhaps you should read the rules of the thread before engaging. Might save both of us the headache.

Elaborate on how half of my sources are Legends. I've since realized the magazine was Legends material, so that was my bad, but I'm not sure of anything else. The quote from the RotS novelization isn't related to this thread at all, it's just a thought I wanted to share with Yousufkhan1212.

@yousufkhan1212: I was referring to "but the vast majority of users on the forums deny the published book SW: AEYNTK saying that Maul is more skilled than Dooku on the basis that Dooku has better feats in lightsaber prowess and dueling".

@idrisiangraecus: The novelization Shadow Conspiracy states that Maul's power was growing throughout the Clone War, and he had surpassed his The Phantom Menace variation. That would mean that either Shadow Conspiracy or Son of Dathomir is Maul's prime in Legends.

I agree with most of this, but I would argue Maul's stomping of Savage came down to lightsaber/martial prowess, since they were so close in the physical and Force departments by that time. Of course, that is my own speculation. So yes, Maul has stomped Savage in both Canon and Legends.

Canon only? Maul hasn't really done much pre-TPM and his only real good TPM feat is fighting Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon who haven't shown much before TPM.

....I feel like this is unfair.

@formally_darth: Canon stipulation was not there when I first commented.

Elaborate on how half of my sources are Legends.

Death Sentence and Shadow Conspiracy are both Legends. Anything that's not TCW (the show and only the show) or the movies published before 2013 is Legends.

Legends:

Round 1: Maul wins. He's not as strong, but he's faster, more agile, equally/superior in durability/resilience, has superior willpower. His mastery of Teras Kasi will also give him an advantage against Savage.

Round 2: Depends on how serious that TCW magazine is supposed to be taken, and I honestly wouldn't because early TCW Maul, who is only as powerful as TPM Maul, is "kind of in the Vader realm" as stated by Filoni in May 2012, meaning that he's not far off Vader and can compete with him, due to how Sidious trained him in the ways of the Dark Side. Filoni made this statement while contrasting Maul to how Ventress and Savage are just rogue henchmen/assassins who lack the skills, power and training to be anywhere in Vader realm, meaning that even early TCW Maul is more powerful than Savage & Ventress. And one of the reasons why Savage brought back Maul was so that he could have a Dark Side teacher to complete his Sith training... What the hell is he going to learn from a Dark Sider less powerful than himself? Don't give me the "but but Obi-Wan is Anakin's teacher but Anakin is better!" rebuttal because they're not Dark Siders. Dark Siders, especially the Sith, are about power and dominance.

Round 3: Maul wins due to superior skill, intelligence and technique.

Round 4: Maul wins.

Maul and Vader are weak shits.

@wolfrazer: He has showings from Darth Maul 2017 and Age of Republic. Sadly, that's about all he has during that time in Canon.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Completely agree with this.

@greysentinel365: "Canon stipulation was not there when I first commented."

Yes, they were. I wrote the rules when I made the thread; they weren't added later like you imply.

"Death Sentence and Shadow Conspiracy are both Legends. Anything that's not TCW (the show and only the show) or the movies published before 2013 is Legends."

Ah yes, those are. I was too focused rebutting your points at the time and had forgotten my own rules, primarily because you yourself brought in Legends material.

Savage godstomps all rounds except if martial prowess = H2h. Good thread.

@greysentinel365: @formally_darth: Found this quote:

"Noting the growing power of the brothers, Sidious confronts Savage Opress and Maul on Mandalore (left). As he dies, Opress expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal" ― Ultimate Star Wars New Edition: The Definitive Guide to the Star Wars Universe (2019).

It was published a month ago, 7 years after the TCW magazine, so I'd say it's reasonable to argue that the TCW magazine's statement about Savage being more powerful than Maul has been retconned, and it makes a lot more sense with the subtext of the show than what that strange magazine claims.

Maul is simply better

@yousufkhan1212: Nice find.